Pokémon Blaziken

[Flamebot]

If I were to use it I'd probably go Baton Pass/Stone Edge/Thunderpunch>Protect. Generally you want to switch Blaze into something that it can take any attack from, such as something like Heatran, Tyranitar, etc. that you can force out. You can then either set up or attack, depending on what you think your opponent will do. If faced with a defensive counter it can Baton Pass out. Azumarill and Talonflame still eat it alive though.

Also lol Starmie.
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Blaziken Hi Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 32 Def Starmie: 286-338 (88.54 - 104.64%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
^"bulky" Rapid Spin set.

And Starmie gets Analytic not Adaptability.

Lol thats what I meant to say. And why is Blaziken always at +2 in your calculations?
That's unfair.
Alright if you can do +2 attack, then we two can do +2 any stat in a calculation.
And so with the set you rum you lose out on you're stabs, why would you do that anyways?
anyways, running that set, I can safely switch out a Gliscor, what are you going to do now? HJK, nope, Thunderpunch, Nope Flareblitz maybe but i doubt it would kill it, next thing you no Gliscor uses SD and a physical rock or flying move next turn after that, say bye to Blaziken.

But yes, you can keep making unreasonable asumptions, like why a Azumarill is going to be scared of a HJK, when in all actuallity if the thing has a choice band it's another Bye Bye.

 

[SJCrew]

I think Flamebot is precisely the reason why Blaziken's ban was not put up for discussion.

"How do you set up a Swords Dance? That's not fair, man!"

 

[Darknut07]

I think everyone is missing my point, so I'll make it as clearly as I can and not dilute it with making other arguments.

If an argument can be made as to why a pokemon should stay OU (regardless of whether it is instantly compelling), it deserves a suspect test and discussion leading to a decision. This kind of discussion. Before the ban.

 

[AOPSUser]

Lol thats what I meant to say. And why is Blaziken always at +2 in your calculations?
That's unfair.
Alright if you can do +2 attack, then we two can do +2 any stat in a calculation.
And so with the set you rum you lose out on you're stabs, why would you do that anyways?
anyways, running that set, I can safely switch out a Gliscor, what are you going to do now? HJK, nope, Thunderpunch, Nope Flareblitz maybe but i doubt it would kill it, next thing you no Gliscor uses SD and a physical rock or flying move next turn after that, say bye to Blaziken.

But yes, you can keep making unreasonable asumptions, like why a Azumarill is going to be scared of a HJK, when in all actuallity if the thing has a choice band it's another Bye Bye.

I calced Azumarill to show it could take a +2 HJK.

If you are switching Blaziken into a Tyranitar you should use Swords Dance Turn 1, and then you're at +2. Otherwise, you do 2HKO that Starmie, and if you run bulky Scarf...lol.

The set I'd use is:
-High Jump Kick
-Flare Blitz
-Swords Dance
-Baton Pass

If you are at +2 a Jolly LO Flare Blitz has an 81.25% chance to OHKO Gliscor after SR.

The whole point of using Blaziken is to safely get to +2 and sweep.

 

[Subject 18]

Why not go for brave bird when you have high priority roost. I do see your point tho as you will have to find something to safely roost on but still. Gliscor can take it 1vs1 to can't it?

Not when Mixed Blaziken exists...

Blaziken (F) @ Life Orb
Trait: Speed Boost
EVs: 80 Atk / 252 SAtk / 176 Spd
Naive Nature (+Spd, -SDef)
- High Jump Kick
- Overheat / Fire Blast
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Protect
[/hide]

 

[Flamebot]

I calced Azumarill to show it could take a +2 HJK.

If you are switching Blaziken into a Tyranitar you should use Swords Dance Turn 1, and then you're at +2. Otherwise, you do 2HKO that Starmie, and if you run bulky Scarf...lol.

The set I'd use is:
-High Jump Kick
-Flare Blitz
-Swords Dance
-Baton Pass

If you are at +2 a Jolly LO Flare Blitz has an 81.25% chance to OHKO Gliscor after SR.

The whole point of using Blaziken is to safely get to +2 and sweep.

Defensive Gliscor? and don't assume SR is up, do it with Gliscor with a defence set and a posion orb to heal it, along with a defencsive nature(Unless it uses something else)

 

[AOPSUser]

Defensive Gliscor? and don't assume SR is up, do it with Gliscor with a defence set and a posion orb to heal it, along with a defencsive nature(Unless it uses something else)

You definitely want to keep hazards up on the opponent while using Blaziken. It really helps in situations like this. Also, if you use Adamant LO...

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Blaziken Flare Blitz vs. 244 HP / 248+ Def Gliscor: 328-386 (93.18 - 109.65%) -- 56.25% chance to OHKO
From full health.

Just for fun, let's say they used 252/252+:

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Blaziken Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 325-383 (91.8 - 108.19%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

Gliscor is not safe.

 

[Caius Gray]

I've never said Ghost types were uncommon nor was I ever going to say that. Sure you can't spam HJK when Aegislash is running about. However people forget that Blaziken has 110 SpA and can just Fire Blast or Overheat it's way past Aegislash and not worry about King's Shield's shenanigans.

IDK it's this kind of tit-for-tat that qualifies for testing these kind of bans. Sure, you can run Fire Blast or Overheat on your Blaziken. Sure, that's fine.

What are you swapping out for it?
Baton Pass so you don't have as much utility?
Flare Blitz or HJK for your physical STABS?
Protect so you don't have as many opportunities to get +1 speed safely?

While taking a move like Fire Blast covers one avenue of counter-play it almost always opens up another.

It's pretty safe to assume there's at least a few ways to deal with a Blaziken assuming that it's running HJK + Flare Blitz + Swords Dance + *Insert utility or coverage here*.

When stuff like Aegislash and Mega Gengar remain justifiably OU and Blaziken is shafted without any chance for discussion even though it clearly is NOT uncounterable, just seems a bit weird.

 

[neato]

So what some people consider a counter has changed since d/p days.

Example: In D/P Starmie w/thunderbolt was considered a textbook counter to DD gyarados. It was quite often the example used when explaining what a counter is. You can still read the D/P write up for starmie and gyarados mentioning their relationship to each other. You would switch starmie into gyarados even with rocks up. If Gyarados DDed on the switch, starmie would come in with full health and kill with Thunderbolt, even if gyarados was using Bounce, or the more common stone edge. If you switched starmie in on gyarados and he used stone edge, starmie would take around 40-45% health. Then gyarados would switch out. The next time gyarados switched in and used DD, starmie would not be able to take the hit and die. so let's reiterate, starmie was considered a textbook counter, and was used very often as an example of what a counter should be, but took 40-45% health from a switch in.

Now lets take azumarill. You switch in azumarill into blaziken. Blaziken either uses sword dance, in which case he is forced out or dies and azumarill takes 0 damage. Or blaziken uses HJK, and azumarill takes 40-45%. Now blaziken dies if he stays in or switches out. The next time blaziken switches in and uses sword dance, well azumarill can still switch in because he gets priority, but lets say he comes into another HJK and can now no longer stop blaziken. Azumarill can force blaziken out 2 times.

You can use a similiar argument for talonflame. You can use a similiar argument for Rotom-W as well.

Basically, its fine if people don't wanna call talonflame or azumarill counters. But you have to admit you're changing the definition. You're retconning what an entire generation of players considered a counter. You can go to the D/P analysis pages right now and see starmie called a counter to gyarados.

If you go by the the historical definition of a counter, then saying blaziken has no counters is completely false. Blaziken has definite counters (using the old definition), that is not even up for discussion. The real question becomes are there enough different counters such that blaziken is not considered overcentralizing.

 

[CyRaX2018]

5th gen made blaziken op af he is def gonna be on its way back to ubers asap!

 

[Flamebot]

Shashed Alakazam messes up both blaziken and MBlaziken does it not?

 

[superstar]

IDK it's this kind of tit-for-tat that qualifies for testing these kind of bans. Sure, you can run Fire Blast or Overheat on your Blaziken. Sure, that's fine.

What are you swapping out for it?
Baton Pass so you don't have as much utility?
Flare Blitz or HJK for your physical STABS?
Protect so you don't have as many opportunities to get +1 speed safely?

While taking a move like Fire Blast covers one avenue of counter-play it almost always opens up another.

It's pretty safe to assume there's at least a few ways to deal with a Blaziken assuming that it's running HJK + Flare Blitz + Swords Dance + *Insert utility or coverage here*.

When stuff like Aegislash and Mega Gengar remain justifiably OU and Blaziken is shafted without any chance for discussion even though it clearly is NOT uncounterable, just seems a bit weird.

As we have to say about a million times, uncounterable does not equal ban and just because something has counters does not make it not broken. A great example of this is CB Terrakion in BW1, which had no counters in OU bar Gliscor, or Kyurem-B in OU, or Victini in BWUU. Compare this to Kyogre, who has perfect counters in Gastrodon and Ferrothorn which are both totally OU viable, or Excadrill in BW1 which was countered by Gliscor and Physically Defensive Politoed, or Landorus-I in BW2 who was countered by Latias, Celebi, and Gengar. Who cares if Blaziken had two perfect counters; it is still neigh-unrevengeable, centralizing, and is best gone from OU.

Goddamn people are stupid in this thread.

 

[Ranevski]

So what some people consider a counter has changed since d/p days.

Example: In D/P Starmie w/thunderbolt was considered a textbook counter to DD gyarados. It was quite often the example used when explaining what a counter is. You can still read the D/P write up for starmie and gyarados mentioning their relationship to each other. You would switch starmie into gyarados even with rocks up. If Gyarados DDed on the switch, starmie would come in with full health and kill with Thunderbolt, even if gyarados was using Bounce, or the more common stone edge. If you switched starmie in on gyarados and he used stone edge, starmie would take around 40-45% health. Then gyarados would switch out. The next time gyarados switched in and used DD, starmie would not be able to take the hit and die. so let's reiterate, starmie was considered a textbook counter, and was used very often as an example of what a counter should be, but took 40-45% health from a switch in.

Now lets take azumarill. You switch in azumarill into blaziken. Blaziken either uses sword dance, in which case he is forced out or dies and azumarill takes 0 damage. Or blaziken uses HJK, and azumarill takes 40-45%. Now blaziken dies if he stays in or switches out. The next time blaziken switches in and uses sword dance, well azumarill can still switch in because he gets priority, but lets say he comes into another HJK and can now no longer stop blaziken. Azumarill can force blaziken out 2 times.

You can use a similiar argument for talonflame. You can use a similiar argument for Rotom-W as well.

Basically, its fine if people don't wanna call talonflame or azumarill counters. But you have to admit you're changing the definition. You're retconning what an entire generation of players considered a counter. You can go to the D/P analysis pages right now and see starmie called a counter to gyarados.

If you go by the the historical definition of a counter, then saying blaziken has no counters is completely false. Blaziken has definite counters (using the old definition), that is not even up for discussion. The real question becomes are there enough different counters such that blaziken is not considered overcentralizing.

Which is why I refrain from using counter at all anymore. I consider this to still be the definition of a counter and absolutely consider Azumarill a counter to Blaziken. However thesedays if you use the word counter you get 10 replies about how it's not a counter if it already lost 60% of its health or you have hazards or the right weather or you have +6 attack. People tend to use counter only when something completely walls something else ("Blissey counters Jolteon").

I'm just going to state clearly once that just because something has a counter does not in any way mean it's not ban worthy, it's a silly vacuum argument and has no bearing on how the game is actually played. It doesn't matter if the old MixMence had (many) things that it couldn't get by with one set. On average it contributed far more than it cost to put on your team, and thus became ubiquitous. Just because Azumarill is a counter to Blaziken doesn't mean Blaziken isn't so good that it becomes a no-brainer to put on your team at high level play - especially on a pokemon that can Baton Pass boosts.

Goddamn people are stupid in this thread.

This^

 

[I2edShift]

When stuff like Aegislash and Mega Gengar remain justifiably OU and Blaziken is shafted without any chance for discussion even though it clearly is NOT uncounterable, just seems a bit weird.

Pretty much this. Unfortunately I think that Blaziken has too few counters to him, and that's going to be Smogon's MO for the decision. Forcing everyone to use Talonflame, Azumarill, or an Extreme Speed Dragonite is not a healthy meta game. Maybe Gyarados could work as a check if it came in fresh... Idk. It just
looks like it forces to much reliance on Priority attacks, after two speed boosts Blaziken out speeds pretty much everything.

Anyway, Mega Blaziken never really had a chance in my mind, but I honestly thought the standard form had a slim chance.

 

[Flamebot]

And Focus sash Alakazam can check(is a better word) if it doesn't get burned by blitz but I'll gladly do it and take my 70% survival rate with it (burn is 30% chance so yeah). Tho, I think MegaBlaziken and Blaziken in General are good, due to almost no counters/checks.

 

[XxxKingYBxxX]

Forcing everyone to use Talonflame

Everyone was using talonflame even during the period when blaziken was banned, and probably will regardless if blaziken gets banned or not.

Standard blaziken is barely worse than its mega form. It has a bit more power (i think) with life orb. Your taking recoil, but neither one of them is really taking a hit anyway. You also get to use something like mega kanga or gengar if you opt for the normal form.

 

[I2edShift]

Everyone was using talonflame even during the period when blaziken was banned, and probably will regardless if blaziken gets banned or not.

Standard blaziken is barely worse than its mega form. It has a bit more power (i think) with life orb. Your taking recoil, but neither one of them is really taking a hit anyway. You also get to use something like mega kanga or gengar if you opt for the normal form.

I know, and Mega Blaziken is better than standard if you use an Adamant nature, but the damage difference isn't very big. Arguably not worth the mega slot unless you have no better use for it on your team.

 

[Grey Knight]

And Focus sash Alakazam can check(is a better word) if it doesn't get burned by blitz but I'll gladly do it and take my 70% survival rate with it (burn is 30% chance so yeah). Tho, I think MegaBlaziken and Blaziken in General are good, due to almost no counters/checks.

alakazam doesn't care about burns , it has magic guard

 

[Flamebot]

alakazam doesn't care about burns , it has magic guard

Wait magic gaurd effects status to? Fricken this thing IS a blaziken check.

 

[XxxKingYBxxX]

Sashed alakazam can be a check to any reasonably frail sweeper not named kangaskhan-mega or cloyster

 

[Caius Gray]

Goddamn people are stupid in this thread.

Smooth, this is the kind of comment we really need more of in a discussion based on Pokemon analysis with regards to competitive battling. Really. Kudos.

I'm just honestly getting a little tired of the back and fourth that is:

"Blaziken is uncounterable"
"No it's not: ~list Blaziken checks and counters~"
"Having counters doesn't mean that it's not broken"

I'm just not convinced that Blaziken is leagues above other big contending Pokemon like Mega Kangaskan, Aegislash, Mega Gengar etc. At least not so far ahead of them to warrant NO suspect tests or discussion whatsoever.

Sure they all have checks and counters but they're also all very powerful in enough situations to make them REAL threats to a lot of players. There's a reason there's so much of these guys on Showdown + Wifi at the moment.

There's a lot more to respect about Smogons ratings and tiers when they're based on lengthy discussion and testing from the community rather than the council alone swinging around what they think is too good.

 

[Piconoe]

I think another important thing to note is that while touting HJK stopping check switch ins is all fine and dandy, HJK'ing into an Aegislash (and don't go trying to say Ghost types are uncommon at the moment, come on.) switch in is going to put Blaziken in a world of hurt, especially if it's taken hazard damage beforehand. From there Aegislash even has Shadow Sneak so the priority = hey presto.

Also, assuming you've HJK'd into a Ghost type. Any following Flare Blitzes are only going to serve to wittle down Blazikens remaining health even more, double so if using Life Orb.

I'm in no way trying to say that Blaziken doesn't deserve to get banned in future, but at this point it just sort of came out of no where and no-one seems to be even acknowledging all the stuff that throws a spanner in a Blaziken sweep.

Exactly. I feel it's unfair for it to be banned before February. Unless they do a pre-tier-list ban of some of the other broke crap, too. Otherwise it comes off as the tier committee targeting Blaziken specifically.

What about Exadrill? That guy still sits in Gen 5 Ubers along with Blaziken, and there are a few others in Gen VI that are teetering on the brink like Aegislash and Mega Mawile.

 

[Bravadorado]

Guys, Blaziken has been removed from the banlist, for now at least.

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/official-xy-ou-banlist.3491371/

 

[Gisnack]

Alakazam gets pwned by any half decent physical attack. I do think Blazikenite should be banned, mega is way too powerful.

 

[Spenstar]

Guys, Blaziken has been removed from the banlist, for now at least.

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/official-xy-ou-banlist.3491371/

Celebrate the good news!!