Pokémon Blaziken

[Garrus01]

Blastoise also can't do nothing to prevent Blaziken from Baton Pass, so it's not a reliable check.

In that case, it comes down to prediction. Will your opponent leave his blaziken in against a full health/health after SR Megatoise and risk a OHKO, or will he baton pass to someone else? If he baton passes or switches, then you can generally predict what he's going to switch to. Afterall, we have team preview now.

 

[Flamebot]

Likewise, I challenge you to find me another common OU sweeper that can OHKO/2HKO virtually the entire game at +2 with Stealth Rock down, get passive Speed Boosts while it does whatever it wants such that it outspeeds the entire unboosted metagame after one turn and virtually all relevant Scarf users after two, and when you actually bring in one of its few hard counters, Baton Pass the boosts it has accumulated to a partner and let them continue the carnage. That is what sets Blaziken apart.

Scolopied. What's next?

Blastoise also can't do nothing to prevent Blaziken from Baton Pass, so it's not a reliable check.

Who cares? if it baton passes it cant use protect, making it still outspeedable and anything it switchs to wont get a baton pass buff, so I could care less.

 

[Clockwork Seal]

and when you actually bring in one of its few hard counters, Baton Pass the boosts it has accumulated to a partner and let them continue the carnage.

I've asked this before and I'll continue asking until it gets answered:

Many of Blaziken's counters are scarfers or priority users who can survive an unboosted hit on the switch and OHKO by outspeeding +1 speed Blaziken. How is there a rampage to continue at this point, and how is it going to baton pass when the other poke kills it first?

 

[Flamebot]

I've asked this before and I'll continue asking until it gets answered:

Many of Blaziken's counters are scarfers or priority users who can survive an unboosted hit on the switch and OHKO by outspeeding +1 speed Blaziken. How is there a rampage to continue at this point, and how is it going to baton pass when the other poke kills it first?

It can't baton pass out, as Azumarill will kick it's arse with prority Aqua jet.

 

[RockStarFish]

Scolopied. What's next?

Scolipede absolutely cannot 2HKO half the tier at +2. Standard Scolipede set is Megahorn, Protect, Baton Pass and another boosting move.

+2 252 Atk Scolipede Megahorn vs. 4 HP / 0- Def Lucario: 121-143 (42.9 - 50.7%) -- 3.91% chance to 2HKO

Just in case you wanted an example of how comparatively weak Scolipede is. Mono-Bug is terrible offensively.

The list of things that survive even a +6 Megahorn from Scolipede is looooong. Blaziken, Talonflame, Aegislash, MegaGengar, Toxicroak, Lucario, Heatran, Togekiss, Mawile, Charizard, Skarmory, etc.

Who cares? if it baton passes it cant use protect, making it still outspeedable and anything it switchs to wont get a baton pass buff, so I could care less.

Firstly, the phrase is "couldn't care less".

Secondly, Mega Blaziken at +1 252+ Spe still outspeeds everything without a Choice Scarf (not named Deoxys).

Thirdly, some Mega Blaziken sets run HJK/Flare Blitz/Protect/Baton Pass with massive offensive threats such as SD Garchomp on the receiving end.

It can't baton pass out, as Azumarill will kick it's arse with prority Aqua jet.

252+ Atk Splash Plate Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 4 HP / 0 Def (custom): 230-272 (76.15 - 90.06%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Only if it's a Choice Band Azumarill.

 

[Garrus01]

Anything that can outspeed it at +1 can do the same job. Last I checked, Baton pass is not a priority move. As for scoliopede: You can run an attack set, but I wouldn't use it for a sweep. But Volcarona and dragonite off the bat could fulfill your argument that they can rip apart the entire tier. They just don't get speed boosts. Oh wait, they do, in the form of DD and QD, which is all they need really.

Blaziken's speed is base 80. Mega's is base 100. Pretty sure there are pokes who can outspeed them on the switch in. I'm almost 100% positive that crobat and Noviern-who resists both of blaziken's STABs and can retaliate with a Hurricane at worst-can outspeed it. And don't say hurricance's chancey, because so's HJK.

Speed doesn't even matter if you use a focus sash, because then you can get a 1HKO from the pokemon of your choice after the sash keeps them in. And Alakazam is a good candidate for a sash anyways, who can also afford to pack a LO-which means your opponent would have no idea which set you are running.

And if we've been assuming SR, pretty sure that 2HKO with the blue rabbit turns into a OHKO.

 

[Agent Gibbs]

We know that Blaziken outspeeds things at +2, that's sort of his defining threat. It's also why the usual counter-play is to switch something that outspeeds him at base/+1, can survive an unboosted hit and OHKO back or to use priority if for some reason you've been super outplayed and Blaziken has managed to get +2 Atk and Spd with hazards up.

Here's the thing, though. When are you planning on bringing in the faster Pokemon? If you try bringing in a Scarf user that can beat it at +1, what happens when the opponent just attacks outright and heavily cripples or kills your Scarf user instead of setting up Swords Dance from the get-go? I have used Blaziken extensively, and I've found that half the time it's far better to spend your first switch-in just attacking instead of setting up and scouting to see what your opponent switches into Blaziken. I've caught many things like Scarf Garchomp with heavy damage or KOs just by starting with High Jump Kick or Flare Blitz instead of Swords Dance. It essentially turns into a coinflip where you don't know if your opponent is going to set up or attack. The only truly safe way to get most Scarf users in every time without supernatural prediction skills is to wait until Blaziken has already killed something, but by then you've already wasted a turn sacking a Pokemon to it and it has netted another Speed Boost.

Also if you've taken Baton Pass you're giving up Protect (which secures Blaziken it's +1 Spd safely) or another coverage move. Also (and I may be wrong on this, so forgive me if I'm mistaken), doesn't priority poop all over Baton Pass attempts anyway? I was under the impression if Azumaril etc. switches in on you and you use Baton Pass they can kill you with Aqua Jet etc.

Yes, but there's literally only 2 common priority users that can do heavy enough damage to force Blaziken out or kill it (without signficant prior damage, that is), and that's Azumarill and Talonflame. Having just 2 Pokemon that can safely stop it from sweeping and stop it from just passing its boosts is a really short list. Are we to assume that everyone is going to run an Azumarill or Talonflame on every team? And if we are, do you honestly think that such a pattern is healthy for the metagame?

I know you're annoyed at people who just list off Blaziken's strengths and leave it at that, but it's equally annoying when people just push it of as "Just switch in a fast Scarfer or use Azumarill/Talonflame" when in practice, it's just not as easy as that.

Scolopied. What's next?

Lol.

Scolipede is nowhere near the offensive threat Blaziken is. Its base 100 Atk stat is significantly lower than Blaziken's base 120 Atk stat, it OHKO/2HKO almost the entire game by virtue of its STABs alone like Blaziken has, and depending on the coverage move it runs, it is completely shut down by Pokemon like Skarmory, Gliscor, and Landorus-T, which could only dream of switching into Blaziken.

I've asked this before and I'll continue asking until it gets answered:

Many of Blaziken's counters are scarfers or priority users who can survive an unboosted hit on the switch and OHKO by outspeeding +1 speed Blaziken. How is there a rampage to continue at this point, and how is it going to baton pass when the other poke kills it first?

I'll ask you the same question. When are you planning on bringing in this Scarf user or priority user? Literally the only way you can actually get your Scarf user in against a +1 Blaziken is if you bring it in immediately after Blaziken switches in, but then you run the risk of taking an unboosted attack. Even those Scarf users that can survive an unboosted High Jump Kick and Flare Blitz will be taking heavy damage from it. For instance, a Scarf Salamence switching into Blaziken's LO HJK is taking ~76.96 - 86.32% after Stealth Rock. I can just switch my Blaziken out and bring it back in later while taking 10% damage from Life Orb. Your Salamence, on the other hand, is heavily crippled and will die if it switches back into Stealth Rock or takes pretty much any other hit. A 252/0 Azumarill under the same circumstances will take ~55.07 - 62.74% damage, while Blaziken takes just 10% and switches out. The only way to get in on Blaziken completely safely is let it kill something first, and by that point only priority users will be able to outspeed it. So now all we have to do is make sure everyone always runs an Azumarill or Talonflame on their team!

 

[Dragontamer]

Blastoise also can't do nothing to prevent Blaziken from Baton Pass, so it's not a reliable check.

Blastoise can haze (haze) and phaze (roar). Takes a bit of prediction, and it might be a waste... but on a defensive set, I think Blastoise serves a good niche as a hazer.

Speaking of that, doesn't Multi-scale Dragonite check Blaziken pretty well? Dragonite can Dragon Tail for the Phaze, and threatens an OHKO with Life Orb Draco Meteor. If Blaziken Swords Danced on the way in, Multi-Scale is pretty darn good at keeping the D-nite alive. HP and Def EVs are needed to survive +2 HJK, but the OHKO threat remains viable with minimal Sp. Atk investment.

I'm not talking down the threat btw. I'm legitimately just offering my opinion on checks / counters. I have no skin in this game: Blaziken doesn't fit on my team... so I don't care whether he's banned or not :-p

 

[Caius Gray]

Here's the thing, though. When are you planning on bringing in the faster Pokemon? If you try bringing in a Scarf user that can beat it at +1, what happens when the opponent just attacks outright and heavily cripples or kills your Scarf user instead of setting up Swords Dance from the get-go? I have used Blaziken extensively, and I've found that half the time it's far better to spend your first switch-in just attacking instead of setting up and scouting to see what your opponent switches into Blaziken. I've caught many things like Scarf Garchomp with heavy damage or KOs just by starting with High Jump Kick or Flare Blitz instead of Swords Dance. It essentially turns into a coinflip where you don't know if your opponent is going to set up or attack. The only truly safe way to get most Scarf users in every time without supernatural prediction skills is to wait until Blaziken has already killed something, but by then you've already wasted a turn sacking a Pokemon to it and it has netted another Speed Boost.



Yes, but there's literally only 2 common priority users that can do heavy enough damage to force Blaziken out or kill it (without signficant prior damage, that is), and that's Azumarill and Talonflame. Having just 2 Pokemon that can safely stop it from sweeping and stop it from just passing its boosts is a really short list. Are we to assume that everyone is going to run an Azumarill or Talonflame on every team? And if we are, do you honestly think that such a pattern is healthy for the metagame?

I know you're annoyed at people who just list off Blaziken's strengths and leave it at that, but it's equally annoying when people just push it of as "Just switch in a fast Scarfer or use Azumarill/Talonflame" when in practice, it's just not as easy as that.



Lol.

Scolipede is nowhere near the offensive threat Blaziken is. Its base 100 Atk stat is significantly lower than Blaziken's base 120 Atk stat, it OHKO/2HKO almost the entire game by virtue of its STABs alone like Blaziken has, and depending on the coverage move it runs, it is completely shut down by Pokemon like Skarmory, Gliscor, and Landorus-T, which could only dream of switching into Blaziken.



I'll ask you the same question. When are you planning on bringing in this Scarf user or priority user? Literally the only way you can actually get your Scarf user in against a +1 Blaziken is if you bring it in immediately after Blaziken switches in, but then you run the risk of taking an unboosted attack. Even those Scarf users that can survive an unboosted High Jump Kick and Flare Blitz will be taking heavy damage from it. For instance, a Scarf Salamence switching into Blaziken's LO HJK is taking ~76.96 - 86.32% after Stealth Rock. I can just switch my Blaziken out and bring it back in later while taking 10% damage from Life Orb. Your Salamence, on the other hand, is heavily crippled and will die if it switches back into Stealth Rock or takes pretty much any other hit. A 252/0 Azumarill under the same circumstances will take ~55.07 - 62.74% damage, while Blaziken takes just 10% and switches out. The only way to get in on Blaziken completely safely is let it kill something first, and by that point only priority users will be able to outspeed it. So now all we have to do is make sure everyone always runs an Azumarill or Talonflame on their team!

Ok well I think I'll make this my last reply in direct response to this particular line of argument and yes, I'm aware you still only consider Talonflame and Azumaril the only way to fight Blaziken.

There is more than these two particular mons, I've been attacking first-turn with my Blaziken as well and I find I'm having to weigh up the options a lot more than you're giving credit for.

HJK is what I want to use because it has the most coverage and does by far the most damage, but if I use it in anticipation of Azu etc and my opponent has an Aegislash/Trevenant/Gengar I'm gambling losing half my HP to the Aegislash switch in.

It's not even over when Aegi comes in either because Flare Blitz'ing from there isn't full-proof thanks to the degrading threat of Kings Shield and priority is a threat, especially if I've taken hazard + HJK whiff damage.

If alternatively I use Flare Blitz as my first turn attack it is not only chipping at my health (doubly so for you since you're using Life Orb in every calculation you cite) but bulky water types now get a much less scary switch-in than before.

Like I said I have no interest in fueling this particular argument any further but it does strike me as a little lop-sided that you're not giving any leeway to your opponents predicting a Blaziken switch-in and you ALWAYS have hazards on your opponents side of the field.

Let's also remember that Baton Pass isn't as full proof as you originally pointed it out to be thanks to priority still hitting Blaziken if you wants to pass out with it.

I feel like Blaziken is as much of a sweeper as many other Poke's this gen. If my opponent has got hazards up on me as well and has a set up Dragonite for example, Blaziken isn't breaking his team apart at this point. In fact like any other mon' coming in on a buffed sweeper you're gambling your success since they have the momentum.

Again, Blaziken isn't always getting those perfect switch-ins where you come in on something that absolutely can't touch you and roll from there. It's base speed is still not stellar and if you're not running protect (because Baton Pass etc.) you can't switch in on anything that outspeeds you at base with Earthquake or another threatening attack.

I respect your opinion and you obviously have experience playing with Blaziken, but I implore you to understand that I just want some degree of testing and discussion about where Blaziken sits in the new generation. The field has changed and we are not in the same environment as we were before, there's a lot to take in and re-think before we banish non-legendaries to Ubers again. This is especially true considering how downright terrifying some of the Mega Evolutions are and how stuff like Aegislash can make crazy plays happen in many situations.

 

[RockStarFish]

Blaziken, and indeed Mega Blaziken, seems to be what's known as a Skill Gate. It dominates the lower tiers of player skill, where its power, ability and versatility can easily beat several opponents by itself, but experienced and more skillful players can easily neutralise it with correct strategy, prediction, and team synergy.

I'm not saying Blaziken shouldn't be banned, nor am I advocating the opposite. The reality is that we just don't have enough data or a stable enough metagame to make the call yet. We're only just beginning to work out what the dominant playstyles will be this generation.

Heck, we're still waiting for Pokébank. That's gonna pretty much reset the metagame anyways.

 

[Darknut07]

What about things like Dragonite (it can take 2 hits even without multiscale), intimidate mence, intimidate gyarados, slowbro?

-1 252 Atk Life Orb Blaziken Hi Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 104-123 (31.41 - 37.16%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Blaziken Hi Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragonite: 136-160 (42.1 - 49.53%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (NO STEALTH ROCK, 2HKO with)
Gyarados need 12 HP evs to survive 3 hits form Blaziken all the time -1 252 Atk Life Orb Blaziken Hi Jump Kick vs. 12 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 105-125 (31.43 - 37.42%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock (So everything but offensive DD Gyara or even that if it has lefties)
Slowbro 252 Atk Life Orb Blaziken Hi Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 87-104 (22.08 - 26.39%) -- possible 4HKO after Stealth Rock

And note something about all of these calcs and most others: Blaziken is using HJK. If I were playing, I'd be hesitant about just spamming it.

 

[Flamebot]

Hmm, I want to try this, but I like Talonflame because it's an amazing revenge killer(Without SR).
Tho, I like this guy to.
I don't know.
I assume LO Blaziken works well on balanced teams to?
The Problem I see with Both MegaKen and Blaziken is the recoil(of Flareblitz, and a miss of hjk) and or LO assuming you're not using MegaKen. All that on top of SR, and you're pretty much done for.

I don't know tho, because if you have SR support, it seems like a +2 Blaziken can go 6-0 as much as I hate to say it.

 

[DaRkRaii]

Hmm, I want to try this, but I like Talonflame because it's an amazing revenge killer(Without SR).
Tho, I like this guy to.
I don't know.
I assume LO Blaziken works well on balanced teams to?
The Problem I see with Both MegaKen and Blaziken is the recoil(of Flareblitz, and a miss of hjk) and or LO assuming you're not using MegaKen. All that on top of SR, and you're pretty much done for.

I don't know tho, because if you have SR support, it seems like a +2 Blaziken can go 6-0 as much as I hate to say it.

Ken can fit on Balanced teams quite well... No need for any sort of Bulky or HO (Hyper Offense). The main point for Ken is setting up for a sweep, and that constitutes not bringing him in until you can valiantly do so. And, the recoil shouldn't matter. The sheer momentum you gain form a LO Blaziken via Speed Boost+Set up is insane. At +2 you'll be ripping through things and you may KO yourself in the process, but Blaziken did its job and basically secures a win.

 

[Flamebot]

Ken can fit on Balanced teams quite well... No need for any sort of Bulky or HO (Hyper Offense). The main point for Ken is setting up for a sweep, and that constitutes not bringing him in until you can valiantly do so. And, the recoil shouldn't matter. The sheer momentum you gain form a LO Blaziken via Speed Boost+Set up is insane. At +2 you'll be ripping through things and you may KO yourself in the process, but Blaziken did its job and basically secures a win.

So he can fit on teams balanced teams? Thats good, and alittle scary for the opponent. Lol, a HO team with thos thing on it could wreck to.
Unfortunatly, I would play on cartiridge instead of PS(as it doesn't work on phones and I don't have a computer) and Gamefreak has no double items clause, so I guess putting it on a balanced team would work pretty damn well.

I think Blaziken wrecks with Thunder Punch along with it's to stab moves and SD. Tho you miss out on a free +1 speed.

Well, I shall be off now.

Peace to Blaziken lovers everywhere ^^

 

[Piconoe]

Likewise, I challenge you to find me another common OU sweeper that can OHKO/2HKO virtually the entire game at +2 with Stealth Rock down, get passive Speed Boosts while it does whatever it wants such that it outspeeds the entire unboosted metagame after one turn and virtually all relevant Scarf users after two, and when you actually bring in one of its few hard counters, Baton Pass the boosts it has accumulated to a partner and let them continue the carnage. That is what sets Blaziken apart.

Talonflame: +2 252 Atk Life Orb Skill Link Cloyster Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def (custom): 1535-1820 (450.14 - 533.72%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Volcarona: 2 252 Atk Life Orb Skill Link Cloyster Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 1640-1950 (527.33 - 627%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Skarmory: +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Skill Link Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 224 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 275-330 (84.09 - 100.91%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Latios: +2 252 Atk Life Orb Skill Link Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 1025-1220 (340.53 - 405.31%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Gliscor: +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Skill Link Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 244 HP / 40+ Def Gliscor: 1350-1640 (383.52 - 465.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Ferrothorn: +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Skill Link Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 48+ Def Ferrothorn: 330-395 (93.75 - 112.21%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Aegislash (Shield Forme): +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Cloyster Razor Shell vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ferrothorn: 199-234 (56.53 - 66.47%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Excadrill: +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Cloyster Razor Shell vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 853-1006 (235.63 - 277.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Vaporeon: +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Skill Link Cloyster Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Vaporeon: 310-370 (66.95 - 79.91%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Let's bring in some mighty ubers:
Thundurus: +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Skill Link Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus: 1260-1495 (421.4 - 500%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Mewtwo: +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Skill Link Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Mewtwo: 515-610 (123.79 - 146.63%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Giritina: +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Skill Link Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 600-715 (119.28 - 142.14%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Even the mighty Blaziken himself: +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Cloyster Razor Shell vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Blaziken: 751-889 (248.67 - 294.37%) -- guaranteed OHKO

I'm sorry, but if your argument is "If they can set up AND have Stealth Rocks and 6-0 an entire party", then you really should lrn2pokemanz. I agree Blaziken is powerful and all, but come on, guys. You fuckers need better arguments, man. The point of winning a debate is getting people on your side. Not embarrassing yourself with flimsy arguments and convince people to gravitate to the other side.

 

[Stone RG]

Talonflame: +2 252 Atk Life Orb Skill Link Cloyster Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def (custom): 1535-1820 (450.14 - 533.72%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Volcarona: 2 252 Atk Life Orb Skill Link Cloyster Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 1640-1950 (527.33 - 627%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Skarmory: +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Skill Link Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 224 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 275-330 (84.09 - 100.91%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Latios: +2 252 Atk Life Orb Skill Link Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 1025-1220 (340.53 - 405.31%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Gliscor: +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Skill Link Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 244 HP / 40+ Def Gliscor: 1350-1640 (383.52 - 465.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Ferrothorn: +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Skill Link Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 48+ Def Ferrothorn: 330-395 (93.75 - 112.21%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Aegislash (Shield Forme): +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Cloyster Razor Shell vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ferrothorn: 199-234 (56.53 - 66.47%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Excadrill: +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Cloyster Razor Shell vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 853-1006 (235.63 - 277.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Vaporeon: +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Skill Link Cloyster Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Vaporeon: 310-370 (66.95 - 79.91%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Let's bring in some mighty ubers:
Thundurus: +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Skill Link Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus: 1260-1495 (421.4 - 500%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Mewtwo: +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Skill Link Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Mewtwo: 515-610 (123.79 - 146.63%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Giritina: +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Skill Link Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 600-715 (119.28 - 142.14%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Even the mighty Blaziken himself: +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Cloyster Razor Shell vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Blaziken: 751-889 (248.67 - 294.37%) -- guaranteed OHKO

I'm sorry, but if your argument is "If they can set up AND have Stealth Rocks and 6-0 an entire party", then you really should lrn2pokemanz. I agree Blaziken is powerful and all, but come on, guys. You fuckers need better arguments, man. The point of winning a debate is getting people on your side. Not embarrassing yourself with flimsy arguments and convince people to gravitate to the other side.

Then he'll Baton Pass ME the argument, HA, get it? No? fuck u

To start, i hate when people bring up out of context calcs for an argument, now that is very subjective, but imo calcs should only be used to show a generic situation, now you could obviously say you just did, now remind me the last time a cloyster got a Shell Smash off without in ANY priority range without REALLY extensive team support, against a competent player that is.

This isnt a discussion about cloyster, but seriously tho, some of those calcs arent even impressive, and those who are can get countered easily in their majority, ex: if my talonflame is against a Cloyster its a) First turn of set-up, in which case the thing is eating 70+ damage from 2 BBs, considering rocks, any single priority user can pick off from there, i personally always carry 2 or 3 priority users, no scarfers, in my current team but thats just me b) a weakened cloysterwaiting to be picked off by Gale wings BB. Or you could just always take into account the fact that cloyster can set up on like nothing without getting its shit wrecked by the FREAKING priority. Or use the most broke poke atm, rotom w (jk on that one, but srsly, rotom is clean S rank right now)

In comparison, blaziken forces mind games and 50/50 situations genesect style just by entering the field, you often do not even need an SD given how offensive the meta is, and most pokes in those very same offensive team are eating 50+ from RESISTED stabs. Should i switch predicting the protect? What if he HJKs my incoming Talonflame? Hell wtf man, the amount of people roosting on blaziken just to get OHKOd by HJK is hilarious. Oh, and im not downplaying SD, since it turns stall into blaziken's bitch.

I now full well i exxagerated on the damage output, but i just want the fact to be known: Blaze isnt an offensive slouch, and its offensive options arent few and far between, have you seen a team getting its Gliscor/Lando T wrecked by HP ice for a Mega Pinsir or a Dnite to sweep like who gives? BP is one of the deadliest sets because the same co-op sweepers Blaze weakens the counters for ar helped in another way by making them nigh impossible to revenge and even an SD here and there. One mistake in dealing with Ken and youre screwed, if you protect with Heatran as he SDs, you just gave him a kill that is almost impossible to stop, with offense, mispredicting the protect means your scarfer is useless, or getting your ass BPd to a Garchomp or a Lucario gives your opponent no need to predict the revenge killer coming in, sinc ehtey just outspeed and destroy everything as it goes.

Now i broke my own rule mentioning so many specific sitautions right? To end this up, id like to say i dont agree with the arbitrary ban of Blaziken, since imo it has to be debated in a more calm and logical way, seeing how it works in the metagame once it settles down in December.

 

[Magnemite]

He could've easily stopped Blaziken by swapping Trevenant in on either of the obvious High Jump Kicks. Don't flatter yourself.

I don't really get these "you can beat Blaziken if you predict with ghosts" arguments. Saying that you need prediction to beat something doesn't exactly help its case as a balanced Pokemon. Besides, no OU ghost really beats Blaziken except for Jellicent, which isn't exactly the best answer to it. Most of them die to a Flare Blitz on the switch. In fact, all of them do, except Jellicent. Any competent player realizes that a ghost can switch in, so it's not safe to use HJK. Prediction works both ways, obviously. It's not like Ubers where you can just switch in Arceus-Ghost on an obvious HJK and always take out half its health. It's not that simple. Plus, because it has baton pass, (not that it wasn't broken without it) you can't just switch in something that resists its STABs and beat it. Outside of a whole TWO Pokemon, nothing can reliably revenge Blaziken. That's literally what makes it broken.

 

[Agent Gibbs]

I'm sorry, but if your argument is "If they can set up AND have Stealth Rocks and 6-0 an entire party", then you really should lrn2pokemanz. I agree Blaziken is powerful and all, but come on, guys. You fuckers need better arguments, man. The point of winning a debate is getting people on your side. Not embarrassing yourself with flimsy arguments and convince people to gravitate to the other side.

You do realize that you haven't actually made a real argument here at all, right? You just tossed around insults and posted a bunch of random Cloyster calculations to prove...what? That it can beat Pokemon that are frail and/or naturally weak to it? Are you trying to say that Cloyster fulfills all the requirements that I mentioned? Because it certainly can't Baton Pass its boosts when it comes across a counter, and it can't outspeed all relevant Scarf users at +2 (the Adamant Cloyster in your example is outsped by Scarf Haxorus and everything faster).

I'm not just saying that Blaziken can sweep teams comprised of nothing but Pokemon that are weak to its STABs. I'm saying that it sweeps many teams with minimal support (and yes, Stealth Rock by itself is pretty minimal support) regardless of whether or not they are filled with Pokemon that are actually weak to it, and it has a couple of advantages that make it harder to keep in check than other sweepers. When Slowbro comes in on a Shell Smashing Cloyster, Cloyster either switches out or does 55.83 - 65.98% with Rock Blast before dying to Psychic thanks to its lowered SpD stat. When Slowbro comes in on a Swords Dancing Blaziken, there's a good chance it'll just Baton Pass the boosts to Mega Garchomp or I don't know what all and the sweep just keeps going. When a faster Scarf user comes in on Cloyster (and there are plenty of those), it either switches out or dies. Not only that, but unlike Blaziken, Cloyster needs to use Shell Smash to be an offensive threat, so it's far easier to predict when it's going to set up. Blaziken can just toss out High Jump Kicks and Flare Blitzes and do substantial damage to even some resists such as Salamence and Latias, and it'll often outspeed the opponent after the first Speed Boost so that it can land the second hit before they have a chance to react. This makes it far harder to just switch into than Cloyster, and so you'll generally want to wait and bring the Scarfer in on a revenge kill, at which point Blaziken is probably at +2 Spe or higher. Heck, you can just throw all that out the window if it's running Protect, as then it doesn't matter when you bring in your Scarf user since it can just spam that and stall for another boost. The only guaranteed way to completely stop a Blaziken in its tracks is priority, and right now the only relevant priority users that can KO it without a lot of prior damage are Talonflame and Azumarill.

If you want to actually debate my arguments then go ahead, but please don't give me another "lulz ur dumb lrn2pokemanz" post.

 

[Caius Gray]

You do realize that you haven't actually made a real argument here at all, right? You just tossed around insults and posted a bunch of random Cloyster calculations to prove...what? That it can beat Pokemon that are frail and/or naturally weak to it? Are you trying to say that Cloyster fulfills all the requirements that I mentioned? Because it certainly can't Baton Pass its boosts when it comes across a counter, and it can't outspeed all relevant Scarf users at +2 (the Adamant Cloyster in your example is outsped by Scarf Haxorus and everything faster).

I'm not just saying that Blaziken can sweep teams comprised of nothing but Pokemon that are weak to its STABs. I'm saying that it sweeps many teams with minimal support (and yes, Stealth Rock by itself is pretty minimal support) regardless of whether or not they are filled with Pokemon that are actually weak to it, and it has a couple of advantages that make it harder to keep in check than other sweepers. When Slowbro comes in on a Shell Smashing Cloyster, Cloyster either switches out or does 55.83 - 65.98% with Rock Blast before dying to Psychic thanks to its lowered SpD stat. When Slowbro comes in on a Swords Dancing Blaziken, there's a good chance it'll just Baton Pass the boosts to Mega Garchomp or I don't know what all and the sweep just keeps going. When a faster Scarf user comes in on Cloyster (and there are plenty of those), it either switches out or dies. Not only that, but unlike Blaziken, Cloyster needs to use Shell Smash to be an offensive threat, so it's far easier to predict when it's going to set up. Blaziken can just toss out High Jump Kicks and Flare Blitzes and do substantial damage to even some resists such as Salamence and Latias, and it'll often outspeed the opponent after the first Speed Boost so that it can land the second hit before they have a chance to react. This makes it far harder to just switch into than Cloyster, and so you'll generally want to wait and bring the Scarfer in on a revenge kill, at which point Blaziken is probably at +2 Spe or higher. Heck, you can just throw all that out the window if it's running Protect, as then it doesn't matter when you bring in your Scarf user since it can just spam that and stall for another boost. The only guaranteed way to completely stop a Blaziken in its tracks is priority, and right now the only relevant priority users that can KO it without a lot of prior damage are Talonflame and Azumarill.

If you want to actually debate my arguments then go ahead, but please don't give me another "lulz ur dumb lrn2pokemanz" post.

Forgive me if I took your posts the wrong way but when I see pages upon pages of calculations based on a +2 Blaziken at full HP OHKO'ing various Pokes after Stealth Rock I always like to point out that it's not always the case that you get a perfect switch in and while Blaziken gets dangerous when swapped in on something that can't hurt it and it gets to set up - there's actually a lot it cannot swap in on, various things can threaten it, priority is as you've mentioned a reliable way to stop it if you switch in fast enough.

My main point within this thread has always been - Blaziken is good, super good even, perhaps even Uber as to what started this whole conversation. But there exists a decent amount of counter-play and as such I believe Blaziken does not deserve to be placed in ubers without at least some lengthy suspect testing and discussion based on match data.

EDIT: Replied to post confused about original message.

 

[OZodiac]

I honestly doubt whether Blaziken can attain a full sweep. It's too situational - you need to set up on a Pokemon that can't kill you, and its defenses leave a lot to be desired. This guy is probably best used for mid-game, after you've had a shot at crippling the checks/counters. Otherwise, you're risking your offensive pivot on a cheap kill while he tries to set up.

 

[Darknut07]

as much as I love Blaziken, I'm pretty sure he's still gonna be banned: http://play.pokemonshowdown.com/battle-oubeta-62154457 once he gets set up, there is no stopping him.
edit: starts at turn 4
edit: you can also have a smeargle with shell smash and baton pass to help boost Blazkien

There are many times, I'm sure when Blaziken could sweep that would be helpful to your arguement. This was not one of them. The opposing team wasn't prepared for almost ANY boosting threat. He probably couldn't have stopped chomp, mence, dnite, lucario and many many others. That was a potentially decent player killing someone who had absolutely no idea about metagame threats....

 

[Agent Gibbs]

There's no need to get defensive here, you've raised some good points and I've raised examples citing why Blaziken has far from few counter-play options.

Oh, that wasn't aimed at you. I actually enjoyed talking to you since you've brought up plenty of valid arguments have been exceptionally respectful about it. The post I was quoting was a lot different. If you go back and read over it you'll see what I'm talking about, but don't worry, I wasn't referring to you.

For what it's worth, I do agree that while I'm leaning towards Blaziken being banworthy, I think it should receive a lot more testing and discussion before a decision is arrived at. I have a feeling the end result would be the same, but I'd be more comfortable with it if we didn't make such a controversial ban so early in the life of the new generation without substantial testing.

 

[Caius Gray]

Oh, that wasn't aimed at you. I actually enjoyed talking to you since you've brought up plenty of valid arguments have been exceptionally respectful about it. The post I was quoting was a lot different. If you go back and read over it you'll see what I'm talking about, but don't worry, I wasn't referring to you.

For what it's worth, I do agree that while I'm leaning towards Blaziken being banworthy, I think it should receive a lot more testing and discussion before a decision is arrived at. I have a feeling the end result would be the same, but I'd be more comfortable with it if we didn't make such a controversial ban so early in the life of the new generation without substantial testing.

Forgive me, I flip back and fourth through the pages and must have gotten your post confused with someone elses. I did think it was a bit strange considering how well thought-out and clear your posts have been, again, my bad here.

I'm glad we agree with that at least some discussion needs to be done. While I want to say I'm biased towards leaving Blaziken in OU, I'm well aware of how strong it is right now and its legacy of being nigh-unstoppable in Gen 5 still hangs heavy over all our heads.

I think for the most part I'm just quite optimistic for how the changes in Gen 6 have turned out. If anything Blaziken had a slightly downwards shift (or maybe sideways a little) in power thanks to Fairy's checking of its Fighting STAB, Ghosts looking to become a real powerhouse in the meta (and thanks to Blaziken's quite frankly baron Fighting STAB movepool pushing it towards HJK, a super risky attack against some teams) and the introduction of Mega Evolutions giving some Pokemon a real lift-up in power, while Blaziken's is - and forgive me for being a bit simple here: "You're now Life Orb Speed Boost Blaziken, but you don't take the 10% damage each attack".

Personally, I think that if by some magical force Blaziken had access to Close Combat in its movepool, I would be leaning very heavily towards it being ban-worthy this gen. It's all the little things that I think are adding up to keep in in check this time around.

 

[Flamebot]

You do realize that you haven't actually made a real argument here at all, right? You just tossed around insults and posted a bunch of random Cloyster calculations to prove...what? That it can beat Pokemon that are frail and/or naturally weak to it? Are you trying to say that Cloyster fulfills all the requirements that I mentioned? Because it certainly can't Baton Pass its boosts when it comes across a counter, and it can't outspeed all relevant Scarf users at +2 (the Adamant Cloyster in your example is outsped by Scarf Haxorus and everything faster).

I'm not just saying that Blaziken can sweep teams comprised of nothing but Pokemon that are weak to its STABs. I'm saying that it sweeps many teams with minimal support (and yes, Stealth Rock by itself is pretty minimal support) regardless of whether or not they are filled with Pokemon that are actually weak to it, and it has a couple of advantages that make it harder to keep in check than other sweepers. When Slowbro comes in on a Shell Smashing Cloyster, Cloyster either switches out or does 55.83 - 65.98% with Rock Blast before dying to Psychic thanks to its lowered SpD stat. When Slowbro comes in on a Swords Dancing Blaziken, there's a good chance it'll just Baton Pass the boosts to Mega Garchomp or I don't know what all and the sweep just keeps going. When a faster Scarf user comes in on Cloyster (and there are plenty of those), it either switches out or dies. Not only that, but unlike Blaziken, Cloyster needs to use Shell Smash to be an offensive threat, so it's far easier to predict when it's going to set up. Blaziken can just toss out High Jump Kicks and Flare Blitzes and do substantial damage to even some resists such as Salamence and Latias, and it'll often outspeed the opponent after the first Speed Boost so that it can land the second hit before they have a chance to react. This makes it far harder to just switch into than Cloyster, and so you'll generally want to wait and bring the Scarfer in on a revenge kill, at which point Blaziken is probably at +2 Spe or higher. Heck, you can just throw all that out the window if it's running Protect, as then it doesn't matter when you bring in your Scarf user since it can just spam that and stall for another boost. The only guaranteed way to completely stop a Blaziken in its tracks is priority, and right now the only relevant priority users that can KO it without a lot of prior damage are Talonflame and Azumarill.

If you want to actually debate my arguments then go ahead, but please don't give me another "lulz ur dumb lrn2pokemanz" post.

How is Blaziken at +2 spe when it got switched out for a Scarfer(Unless I read that wrong lol.)
Passing two speed boost and a SD to Garchomp makes it deadly as hell, you're right.

 

[Agent Gibbs]

How is Blaziken at +2 spe when it got switched out for a Scarfer(Unless I read that wrong lol.)

Sorry, I'll clarify. What I mean is that if you wait to bring in your Scarfer after Blaziken has already killed something, then Blaziken has probably already reached +2 Spe or higher since that whole process could take a couple of turns.