Hmm, both it and Deoxys. I'm assuming it's not an actual reversal, but just a pause to keep people from flipping out until they can talk about why.
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Pokémon Blaziken
- Thread starter Spenstar
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It's a fair question, though. And it points directly at a lot of problems with the way people address calcs vs switch-ins in general.
When is a Blaziken counter ever going to be switched in to a +2 attack? If you're switching in your counter, it will be on the turn Blaziken Swords Dances or Blaziken will not have a swords dance, and will be hitting with a non-boosted attack. Given that Blaziken's counters (or checks if you want to redefine the term from the way it was used earlier) are generally pokes that either use priority or use a scarf to outspeed even after the boost, checking blaziken at +2 against them is dishonest.
MegaBlaziken is not like MegaLucario or MegaGengar, both of which add a new whole level of 'brokenness' unseen in their standard forms(in fact, without his MegaForm, Lucario would most likely be near to BL/UU), it adds very little over his standard form; the power matches LO StandardKen, the defenses boost is very little and the speed stat boost hardly matters when you have the Speed Boost ability.
As such, probably Smogon would never ban only the Blazikenite, because Standard Blaziken is broken as MegaBlaziken, nothing less and nothing more.
Lucario was OU in 5th gen (mainly due to extremespeed abuse). I agree that Blaziken is broken, but Mega-Blaziken laughs at 'counters' that people propose and steamrollers them. 160 attack? Talonflame will get OHKOed by Flare blitz if that thing manages a setup.
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If it sets up, the problem here is that you LET it set up in the FIRST place. Would you just sit back and let a gyarados or dragonite set up their dragon dances without threatening it? How about letting Volcarona get off its quiver dance(s)? If you can predict the setup, bring in your counter or check on the turn it sets up. It will be either forced out next turn, or KOed. Blaziken and MegaBlaziken aren't exactly tanks. They're cannons, I'll give you that-but they're made out of glass.
Remember that this 160 atk isn't allowed to hold boosting items, in fact
252+ Atk Life Orb Blaziken Hi Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Ground: 246-290 (55.4 - 65.31%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Blaziken-Mega Hi Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Ground: 234-276 (52.7 - 62.16%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Mega Blaziken does less damage(although by a minuscule difference) than Standard Ken equipped with a Life Orb, so in the same way MegaBlaziken nukes Talonflame StandardKen does.
This if we don't consider that Talonflame isn't supposed to check Blaziken because it resists Fire+Fighting, but because it has pirority Brave Bird that always OHKO Blaziken, even factoring in the added bulk of the Mega.
Agreed. Cloyster can mow down countless things with a Shell Smash as well as a few other Pokemon. Belly Drum Azumarill can OHKO an entire TEAM solo if he gets his Drum off. But Azumarill isn't Uber, nor should it ever be.
I'm not saying Blaziken isn't Uber worthy because of this (though honestly I never quite "got" why it was banned over a lot of worse Pokemon like Garchomp), I think he's just as powerful as he used to be (though that's not saying much, since I don't deem him an almighty god like Smogon does, despite being one of my all-time favs) so if what he used to be deserves a ban, so does the current iteration (after testing against new Megas and Gen VI pokes, of course). I'm just arguing the fact that people claim Blaziken Uber BECAUSE of set-up and not other factors.
Why are you guys still talking about talonflame and azumarrill as if they countered blaziken? Who in their right mind uses SD when you know TF and Azu are still alive? Thanks to team preview, Azu and TF achieve one thing. Deal with bad players who SD right away and keep blaziken from wrecking your team from the get go.
When i see TF i make sure Ken doesn't go in until rocks are up. Then when it switches in TF dies. Azu on the other hand becomes set up bait for my dragons, since its forced to use a weak AJ. It already took SR damage and got hit by HJK. It no longer walls my dragons.
The only way TF and Azu counter blaziken is if the other player is bad. Anyone with a brain can destroy teams whose only two checks are mediocre polemon.
When i see TF i make sure Ken doesn't go in until rocks are up. Then when it switches in TF dies. Azu on the other hand becomes set up bait for my dragons, since its forced to use a weak AJ. It already took SR damage and got hit by HJK. It no longer walls my dragons.
The only way TF and Azu counter blaziken is if the other player is bad. Anyone with a brain can destroy teams whose only two checks are mediocre polemon.
While I agree with your point, Talonflame is far from a mediocre Pokemon.
Any player who is halfway competent will have a spinner on their team if they have a pokemon who's 4X weak to stealth rock-or if they use sashes, which can be used to revenge kill blaziken (Alakazam comes to mind). Scarfed pokemon could also do the trick. Really, is all this all that different from using a QD Volcarona set or a dragonite DD set? If it sets up, it's going to nuke alot of things...if its counters are dead, that is. Blaziken is countered by flying, ground, water, fairy, and psychic types off the top of my head. Megasaur with earthquake might do the trick too, thanks to Thick Fat.
Yeah, while testing, if I wasn't able to get off a Swords Dance, there were a lot of Pokemon that could come out and give me immediately threat. Earthquake is terrifying. Sure, after a turn or two of being allowed to stay alive, he can outspeed you, but that's true for a lot of Pokemon (being left alone crippling you that is, look at SubToxic Gliscor. Leave him alive for a turn or two without threatening it and that guy is NOT dying any time soon). And I as well as you already mentioned how piss poor the argument of his power in regards to Swords Dance being.
I understand that he's strong. I understand that it'd be nice to remove him from OU. But there are so many equally or more powerful threats in the game that nobody cares about banishing to Ubers that are just as deserving if not more. I don't understand all the avid and localized hate towards Blaziken and nobody else. Honestly, I think the only reason MOST (keyword there) people hate on Blaziken so much and find him so terrifying is the legacy he holds, less the actual power he holds.
It's a similar case to Sweepers like Volcarona or Dragonite. If you give them any time at all to set up... They're going to nuke you. Dragonite especially given his versatility and obscene bulk. In this meta where half the time you will run into either priority or Ghosts, Blaziken isn't last Generations "ROFLTSTOMP SWEEP" machine, due to given boosts to other Pokemon. Talonflame and Aegislash currently are very high in usage. Talonflame outright KO's any variant of Blaziken with its priority STAB moves and Aegislash laughs at HJK and has Kings Shield (depends on the set) as well. Not even discounting the bulky Water-Fairy; Azumarill. There's far more against Ken in this Gen than there was last Gen. If you see someone dominating with Ken, it's probably because their team is specifically built around getting Blaziken to set up. So if you sack your Jelli/Azu/Talon or any other check/counter, is it Blazikens fault? No. You know it poses a threat to your team. In the same way if you lack a Fairy/Steel and the Bulky Dragon King of OU; Dragonite, comes in and sets up on you and tears you to shreds. Is that Dragonites fault?
I know right now the Banning/Non-banning (currently) is in disarray, but if Blaziken were to be banned, I'd rather it be from proper discussion and voting, not a blind council vote.
I know right now the Banning/Non-banning (currently) is in disarray, but if Blaziken were to be banned, I'd rather it be from proper discussion and voting, not a blind council vote.
Delphox could check this I believe.
And like I said, I like MegaBlaziken, but I'm getting sick of hearing fanboys say it has nothing that can check/counter it.
It isn't imortal and needs SR support usally.
MegaBlaziken can destroy teams yes, but a decent player can Avoid thier whole team from being destroyed.
MegaBannet has priority taunt i believe Therefore can stop SD.
If focus shased kazam switchs in MegaBlaziken is forced to switch.
Wobbufet can also take out MegaBlaziken.
Starmie can, if Mega Blaziken isn't running thunderpunch I believe to.
Nidoking can I beileve.
Sure, MBlaziken can run moves to counter most of these but it can't kill each counter with one set
So lets stop with making it soumd like it's unstoppable, because it's not.
Oh and also Protean Greninja could possibly to.
Seeing as these are mostly water types I think Blaziken should go with thunderpunch, tho it does then loose protect.
And like I said, I like MegaBlaziken, but I'm getting sick of hearing fanboys say it has nothing that can check/counter it.
It isn't imortal and needs SR support usally.
MegaBlaziken can destroy teams yes, but a decent player can Avoid thier whole team from being destroyed.
MegaBannet has priority taunt i believe Therefore can stop SD.
If focus shased kazam switchs in MegaBlaziken is forced to switch.
Wobbufet can also take out MegaBlaziken.
Starmie can, if Mega Blaziken isn't running thunderpunch I believe to.
Nidoking can I beileve.
Sure, MBlaziken can run moves to counter most of these but it can't kill each counter with one set
So lets stop with making it soumd like it's unstoppable, because it's not.
Oh and also Protean Greninja could possibly to.
Seeing as these are mostly water types I think Blaziken should go with thunderpunch, tho it does then loose protect.
Exactly.
Also on another note MegaBlastoise counters MegaBlaziken.
Unless I did the calculations wrong, but I'm pretty damn sure I did them right.
If Stealth Rock is up, Mega Blaziken 2HKOes max physical bulk Mega Blastoise with High Jump Kick.
252 Atk (custom) Hi Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def (custom): 157-186 (43.37 - 51.38%) -- 98.83% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
But Mega Blastoise is a tank, not a wall. It's most likely not going to run max physical bulk. I'd give Mega Blaziken the edge here. Mega Blastoise is a solid check,
0 SpA (custom) Surf vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD (custom): 306-360 (101.32 - 119.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
but it's no counter.
Those were my calculations to except I used hydro pump.
That being said, tanks are walls but alittle more offensive, so bulky Mega Blastoise still tanks with 130 BST sp attack. I don't see why MegaBlastoise wont max it's defence, when it can also do good Special damage without investing in it.
A tank is a wall that has high BST in one offensive area along with good defence and or special, is it not?
It's actually got 135 base SpA.
I just don't see Mega Blastoise running 252 HP and 252+ Def on the same set. 252 HP and 252 Def at most, perhaps, but I'd expect some SpA investment, whether that be running 0+ or a handful of EVs.
Mega Blastoise can counter Mega Blaziken if it's max physical bulk, SR's off the field, it's taken very little or no prior damage, and it's already megavolved, yes. But if just one of those four things are missing, Blaziken 2HKOes with High Jump Kick.
Of course, if you come in on Flare Blitz, that's another story, but that doesn't make Mega Blastoise a true counter, per se.
I don't want to step on anyone's toes here but we've mentioned lots of checks/viable tactics that throw a spanner in Blaziken's sweep attempts in this thread.
Also the argument that "you don't switch blaziken in until its checks are dead" doesn't hold because it applies to roughly EVERY SWEEPER EVER.
Another thing that applies to every sweeper ever is using calculations based on a +2 Blaziken OHKO / 2HKO'ing mons' after SR.
I'd challenge you to find another common OU sweeper that isn't quite frankly ripping apart the opposing team if it's sitting at +2 after setting up and you have stealth rocks up on your opponents side of the field.
There's plenty of stuff that Blaziken can't switch in on without being killed (any one who can survive an unboosted hit / is faster than base speed Blaziken and has Earthquake for example).
Arguments like these:
"you don't switch in Blaziken until its checks are dead"
"you don't use fighting coverage when your opponent has a live Ghost on their team"
"you don't Swords Dance when your opponent has a live Talonflame, Azumaril, Mega Pincir etc with OHKO priority"
These don't serve any point other than proving that Blaziken runs into the same problems as a lot of other OU sweepers.
Again, saying that Blaziken is really powerful if it has switched in on something that can't hurt it, gotten an uncontested Swords Dance and you have hazards up does not justify a ban alone since it applies to pretty much every set-up sweeper ever.
I'm in no way saying that Blaziken is not great. I think it's justifiably OU and heck, might even be better after a bunch of testing, but it's too soon to make that call, especially without community interaction.
EDIT: Also I'm seeing a lot of "Mega Blaziken too powerful compared to normal Blaziken" and thought this could do with some clearing up. Life Orb regular Blaziken actually hits marginally harder than Mega Blaziken.
The real advantage of Mega Blaziken is that you get very slightly higher bulk, a higher base speed for SB and not have Life Orb add to the heavy recoil and self-damage Blaziken already takes from Flare Blitz and HJK.
This is actually a pretty humble increase in power for a Mega Slot when you consider how game-changing Mega Pincir, Gengar and Kangaskan's forms are.
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Ready? 252 hp 252 def 4sp attack
Quite nature.
There, this should work, while at the same time making an awesome Rapid spinner, and an awesome Mega Blaziken check.
I already said Mega Blastoise is a solid check to Mega Blaziken. No one's disputing that Mega Blastoise checks unboosted Blaziken.
What I'm talking about is whether it can call itself a counter. Let's use your proto-build for a quick calculation;
252 Atk (custom) Hi Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252 Def (custom): 172-204 (47.51 - 56.35%) -- 82.81% chance to 2HKO
Not a reliable counter by any stretch of the imagination.
Likewise, I challenge you to find me another common OU sweeper that can OHKO/2HKO virtually the entire game at +2 with Stealth Rock down, get passive Speed Boosts while it does whatever it wants such that it outspeeds the entire unboosted metagame after one turn and virtually all relevant Scarf users after two, and when you actually bring in one of its few hard counters, Baton Pass the boosts it has accumulated to a partner and let them continue the carnage. That is what sets Blaziken apart.
Yes, but you are not going to switch MBlastoise into that knowong this.
I also tested with Blaziken Vs Blastoise non mega, Blastoise still only gets 2HKO'd, the first turn is all Blastoise needs. Not a counter but definetly a great check, sure now your spinner is damaged, but there(Likely)strongest sweeper is gone. So I agree, not a counter but definatly viable.
So Blaziken isn't unkillable like people are trying to make it sound.
MegaBlaziken is a good sweeper nonethe less.
Again, saying a boosted sweeper with Stealth Rocks up is powerful is kind of obvious right from the get go.
HJK is Blazikens main form of general coverage and is a Russian Roulette spin if your opponent has a live Ghost.
We know that Blaziken outspeeds things at +2, that's sort of his defining threat. It's also why the usual counter-play is to switch something that outspeeds him at base/+1, can survive an unboosted hit and OHKO back or to use priority if for some reason you've been super outplayed and Blaziken has managed to get +2 Atk and Spd with hazards up.
Also if you've taken Baton Pass you're giving up Protect (which secures Blaziken it's +1 Spd safely) or another coverage move. Also (and I may be wrong on this, so forgive me if I'm mistaken), doesn't priority poop all over Baton Pass attempts anyway? I was under the impression if Azumaril etc. switches in on you and you use Baton Pass they can kill you with Aqua Jet etc.
I don't want to make this a personal argument, people are just listing Blazikens strengths and going "too stronk", I want at least some acknowledgement that it does have gaps in its strength and like most good Pokemon, it is exploiting these gaps that allows you to check / counter-play them.
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