Tier Shift Viability Rankings (Complete Revamp)

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Bisharp could use Sticky Web to its advantage thanks to its access to priority... which Primeape doesn't have. Not only that, it can't really switch in on most defog-users and its main STAB lowers its defenses (while Sticky Web has also lowered its speed). I've used it before, and while it's not bad it's really hard to make good use of Defiant. I'd much rather use Mienshao (almost same move pool, same speed, higher attack, regenerator/reckless are useful more often).

I'd like to nominate Slowking for the B-/B rank. The Def. difference between Bro and King has decreased while the Sp. D difference has gotten wider. And now slowking has a slight edge is Sp. A (augmented by Nasty Plot) and speed (lol). And this might be a strange argument but Slowbro competes with Alomomola more than Slowking does. Access to phasing, and the usual status and coverage, and the ability to take the Solar Beams of most fire types gives its a reasonable niche (though it fares worse against Fighting types than Slowbro).
 
... OK yeah literally the only thing of substance I can say about Mienshao over Primeape that is not in Mienshao's favor is that Mienshao has to use High Jump Kick or something noticeably below 120 BP, which is risky or weaker, and that's relatively minor. Same speed and everything.

Why must you always be outclassed Primeape. Why.
 
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Ok, I'd like to bring some attention to rain in TS.


105 / 90 / 90 / 105 / 115 / 85


70 / 125 / 115 / 75 / 80 / 90

These two are pretty much essential for Tier Shift rain. Kabutops is technically replacable, but no other swift swimmers are quite the same. Politoed is stupidly bulky and can check a whole lot thanks to said bulk. Scald also hits stupid hard. You can use rest talk for longevity, or just rest. Kabutops is bulky and powerful, and stupid fast (can run adamant and HP EVs.)

Politoed for A+

Kabutops for A
 
Ghoul King I will put Primeape in C+. It faces a lot of competition with Sawk, has a more situational ability, and is frailer. It is however faster and has U-Turn, making it a better user of Choice Scarf. It also has trouble with Alomomola, and is facing competition again with Mienshao.

252+ Atk Choice Band Primeape Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 235-277 (42.4 - 50%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Max invested Adamant with a Choice Band can do 50% max. So B- for now.

a__man Slowking will be B Rank, as their are plenty of other bulky water types that it has to comete with.

asterat thank for starting a discussion about weather. Politoed will move up to A Rank as it is more potent then I first realized, and Kabutops will go to A- for now. I really want to investigate weather and discuss it some more.
 
I'd like to volunteer Rotom-Cut for B rank. It appreciates the plus ten to each stat and the ability to fire off dual stabs that hurt Alomomola. On top of this it can absorb Amoongus' Spore and Volt Switch out to a team mate to absorb the Sludge Bomb making a nice edition to any one running voltturn. It also benefits from Rotom-Frost having poor typing and Rotom-Fan having a redundant ability as well as Rotom-Wash gaining no boosts and Rotom-Heat having a slightly harder time hitting Alomomola. That said, as a grass type it does face competetion from Amoongus which has both Spore and Regenerator, making it an easier fit onto more teams.
 
What do you guys think about Manaphy and Yanmega? Specifically Tail Glow and Tinted Lens Specs.

I've noticed a lot of stall teams on the ladder are really weak to them.

With Manaphy, you can TG on a toxic or a switch then proceed to sweep. If you do get toxic'd, you can still do some punch huge holes in the opposing team
+3 252+ SpA Manaphy Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 96 SpD Amoonguss: 454-536 (100.4 - 118.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+3 252+ SpA Manaphy Energy Ball vs. 104 HP / 156 SpD Alomomola: 590-696 (114.1 - 134.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+3 252+ SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 252 HP / 120 SpD Mega Aggron: 348-409 (98.3 - 115.5%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO (you can set up on those lacking roar/dtail)
+3 252+ SpA Manaphy Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 396-468 (95.6 - 113%) -- 75% chance to OHKO (can beat it in a boosting war if they lack roar)
+3 252+ SpA Manaphy Ice Beam vs. 56 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem: 232-273 (54.5 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

And that's without rain support.

In rain:
+3 252+ SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 252 HP / 104 SpD Cresselia in Rain: 360-424 (77.5 - 91.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+3 252+ SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 252 HP / 104+ SpD Mew in Rain: 412-486 (99.5 - 117.3%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
+3 252+ SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Lickilicky in Rain: 363-427 (81.7 - 96.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Now to Yanmega, the unranked one. It's really good at demolishing those annoying stall cores with M-Aggron and regenerators.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Yanmega Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 96 SpD Amoonguss: 390-458 (86.2 - 101.3%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tinted Lens Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 120 SpD Mega Aggron: 236-280 (66.6 - 79%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Yanmega Giga Drain vs. 104 HP / 156 SpD Alomomola: 338-398 (65.3 - 76.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tinted Lens Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 244 HP / 192+ SpD Gliscor: 218-258 (61.9 - 73.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tinted Lens Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Eviolite Gligar: 198-234 (56 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tinted Lens Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Clefable: 258-306 (65.4 - 77.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Comfortable 2hkos on some of the most prominent stall mons in the tier. Tinted Lens makes it really difficult to switch in on its attacks. Those that can, like Lickilicky, can't do much in return and also risk getting sp def falls from Bug Buzz.

Of course, Chansey and Blissey still screw them over pretty badly.

So, I think Manaphy can go to A tier, and Yanmega to B or B+. They're not the greatest against HO, but the majority of things I see on the ladder are stall, so it shouldn't be a big issue.
 
I think Manaphy should be A+. In the rain, with Rest and Hydration, it can beat just about any wall/stall team.


Manaphy @ Life Orb
Ability: Hydration
EVs: 252 SpA / 12 SpD / 244 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 29 HP / 0 Atk
- Surf
- Tail Glow
- Rest
- Ice Beam

This set is designed to beat most stall teams. Tail Glow is mandatory for set up. Rest + Hydration in the rain means that no wall can toxic stall or knock out Manaphy with chip damage (such as Alomomola's Scald or Chansey's Seismic Toss). The only thing that can stop Manaphy are phazers, but most of the more prominent phazers are physically defensive (like Skarmory and Aggron) or they are Dragon types using dragon tail except they get killed by Ice Beam first.

The EVs allow Manaphy to outspeed max investment base 90s while giving Manaphy a Life Orb number, minimizing Foul Play and confusion damage, and maximize wall-breaking potential. Surf is the main STAB, getting a further power up in the rain, while Ice Beam is chosen over Energy Ball as Grass types and Dragon types are generally more threatening to Manaphy than other Water types. The Life Orb allows Manaphy to OHKO physically defensive Mega Venusaur with Ice Beam at +6 100% of the time, while also allowing it to 2HKO Unaware Clefable most of the time, and the recoil is negligible thanks to Rest's healing properties.

+6 252+ SpA Life Orb Manaphy Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 411-486 (112.9 - 133.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Life Orb Manaphy Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Unaware Clefable in Rain: 208-247 (52.7 - 62.6%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

The premier wall of Tier Shift also can't stand up to the might of Manaphy (Not that it really matters since Manaphy sets up all over it).

+3 252+ SpA Life Orb Manaphy Surf vs. 232 HP / 24 SpD Alomomola in Rain: 524-617 (95.4 - 112.3%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

All in all, Manaphy makes rain teams an even scarier threat to face.
 
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Some less-seen rain abusers that aren't there already:

Ludicolo: Not particularly great stats, but a useful typing. Gets past Jellicent and Ferrothorn much more easily than other Swift Swim sweepers. C+

Omastar: Similar typing to Kabutops, and with better bulk and power than Kingdra (though with worse typing and coverage). If you can get a Shell Smash on it's ridiculous. Doesn't like Mach Punch. B-/B

Gorebyss: Slightly worse stats than Omastar, but better typing (helps it get past Amoongus for example) and access to BP is incredible. B

Seismitoad: Has utility outside rain, but main niche is that of a rain user that can't get stopped by Thundurus. C+/B-

Thundurus Therian: Ridiculously powerful, nice speed tier and access to great boosting moves. Has nice synergy with other rain sweepers as well, being immune to electric and ground while resisting grass. B-/B

Carracosta: Basically Kabutops: loses some power and quite a bit of speed for Shell Smash and more bulk. Can run WP sets with Sturdy or Solid Rock. C+/B-

I think anti-rain pokemon should be considered as well, like Jellicent, Gastrodon and Croagunk. Now they have good enough stats that they have other niches, though I haven't used them enough to try to rank them.
 
So much rain... especially now that Kabutops is NU. Then again, Vaporeon is a pretty good answer to a lot of rain pokemon like Omastar and Tornadus (if anyone actually uses this in TS). Quagsire has also dropped, so maybe a little viability climbing. Toxicroak is pretty anti rain as it can easily beat Carracosta, Ludicolo, and Kabutops. Heracross has also climbed into OU so a possible drop to A. I will test a lot of this tomorrow and see how these pokemon do in the new meta
 
Alright, some updates have been made, but that is a minor detail. The main reason I am posting this is to say that I am going to try putting smaller analyses after the pokemon to tell how they function in the Tier Shift metagame. An exapmle post is on post 2, so just use that for format. You are allowed to reserve 2 pokemon at a time, 3 if you are a badgeholder or part of the council (me, w0rd , PokemonMasterDebater , and Knight of Cydonia ). Please consider writing an analysis of your favorite pokemon to use in Tier Shift, and please continue nominations for a pokemon's rank, as the lower ranks are pretty barren. Thanks
 
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Reserving Cresselia and Gligar


Cresselia

Typing:
Base Stats:
130 / 80 / 130 / 85 / 140 / 95
Ability: Levitate
What it Does: Cresselia can do a variety of things do to incredible bulk. Its mixed bulk is the best in Tier Shift, sporting unbelievable 130 / 130 / 140 bulk. This makes it a great wall, able to deal with such threats as Choice Band Sawk, Keldeo, Mega Alakazam, and most of the rest of the metagame. Thunder Wave can help cripple threats such as Durant that attempt to counter Cresselia, and leave them easy for teamates to take down. Levitate is also a great ability that gives it a Ground immunity but no weakness to Ice, Electric, or Rock moves. It isn't simply reserved for a wall though. It is also the best Calm Mind sweeper in the metagame as it gets STAB on Physhock and can easily take physical attacks. While it may have no coverage for Steel-types, it can hit everything else with Ice Beam, Moonblast, and Grass Knot for coverage. In addition to coverage, it has unique access to Lunar Dance. This signature move can completely heal a weakened teamate and can them a second chance with sweeping. Other options include a Trick set with Choice Scarf and a bulky Dual Screens lead.
Why this Rank: With all this versatility and bulk, it would heartily deserve S-Rank if it didn't have a few crippling flaws. The first is its typing. While Phychic typing does give it the ability to beat most Fighting-types, it is still a terrible typing. Weaknesses to Pursuit, Knock Off, and U-Turn don't it any favors. Speaking of U-Turn, Mega Scizor with Roost walls Cresselia unless it chooses to run the rare HP Fire. If it doesn't carry that, it is just fodder for Mega Scizor to set up Sword Dances all day long. The other problem is Moonlight. It only has 8 PP, and only restores 33% HP when facing a rain team. This allows it to be easily outstalled by many pokemon that force it to recover health too much. Even with all the flaws, it is still a great pokemon who can put in a lot of work.




Name: Gligar

Typing: Flying / Ground
Base Stats: 75 / 85 / 115 / 45 / 85 / 95
Ability: Hyper Cutter / Sand Veil / Immunity (HA)
What it Does: Gligar is a great wall and pivot in Tier Shift. While it does face competition from Gliscor, it sets itself apart by being bulkier with Eviolite (almost equal bulk without) and access to Defog (Gliscor gets it, but it is incompatible with Poison Heal). Gligar makes a good wall, able to take on threats such as Durant, Defensive Heatran, Jirachi without Trick, Mega Aggron, Diggersby, and many others. It also has access to both Defog and Stealth Rocks, giving it hazard control to support the team. U-Turn is also a great move that lets it get switch iniative and momentum, which is great on stall. U-Turn also gives it a place on Volt Turn teams that need a hazard remover. Immunity is a great ability when not using Defog, making the efforts of opponents trying to Toxic stall laughable. It has other options such as Baton Passing Swords Dances and removing items with Knock Off. While it can give iniative and hazard control, it still has a huge weakness to Ice and is crippled by Knock Off.
Why this Rank: Gligar is a very physically bulky pokemon, but in that department Alomomola takes the cake. Alomomola has better typing, access to Scald and Wish, and Regenerator. Gligar also faces competition from Avalugg. Avalugg can also remove hazards, and is more physically bulky and less crippled by Knock Off. Gligar is still B+ though because it has advantages over both and can pivot. Avalugg is a less reliable hazard remover who and is slow as anything. Alomomola doesn't have one turn recovery, and wishes (get it) it did. Knock Off is also a great tool for a wall and comes off a decent univested attack. It still does face a crippling Ice weakness and a hatred of Knock Off, but it can do its job.
 
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So you know how rain is p much the dominant playstyle atm

with this in mind how the fuck has this slugcunt not come up yet



Lez take a looksie at those stats hmmm

Base Stats: 121 / 93 / 78 / 102 / 92 / 49

best rain counter of BW2, best rain counter now. Plus this thing is tanky as fuck. Not sure where to start with Gastro but I'm thinkin B is lookin good
 
Pikachu can do good against rain too I guess. Jellicent with Energy Ball (must be named Somalia) and Toxicroak can also beat rain, depending on the team.

Edit: No idea what happened to the replay but Pikachu took down about half of my team
 
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Dont let this thread die guys. I want to generate some discussion, so please post your thoughts on these possible changes:
Cresselia A+ -> A
Tornadus-T B+ -> A-
Politoed A+ -> S
Clefable A- -> B+
Slowbro B+ -> B
Mew A -> A-
Chansey A- -> B+
 
Dont let this thread die guys. I want to generate some discussion, so please post your thoughts on these possible changes:
Cresselia A+ -> A
Tornadus-T B+ -> A-
Politoed A+ -> S
Clefable A- -> B+
Slowbro B+ -> B
Mew A -> A-
Chansey A- -> B+
To go quickly through each of these, I think Cress should remain at A+, it gets amazing bulk, decent offenses and the ability to Lunar Dance a sweeper back to full so that it has two shots at its job. Tornadus-T going up to A- I wholeheartedly support, it has a great moveset and the plus five to speed finally lets it outspeed Greninja and kill with superpower all while being able to spam Hurricane. Politoed to S is one I'm also liking, the sheer aount of Pokemon the benefit from rain is pretty staggering and with the stat boosts Politoed can now inflict some damage himself. Clefable and Slowbro I'm less sure about, but thats my relative inexperience running the two speaking. Mew has lost the lucrative plus fives the assist its fellow tiny legendaries and while its still good at what it does, I think the drops are deserved in its case. With Chansey, it can be a pain for sure, but the buffs given to offensive threats, I find, help me deal with it a bit better. Hopefully this helps with conversation.
 
Ok, here are my thoughts on them. Cresselia is a very good pokemon. It is immensly bulky and is a great wall. It should probably stay there, but with rain gaining more popularity Moonlight is very lame. Slowbro isn't a bad pokemon, just outclassed. Alomomola is bulkier, also has Regenerator, and doesn't have the weaknesses that come with Psychic typing. Tornadus-T is something that I have been useing recently, to great results. It is a fast revenge killer and a great pivot that helps take care of some pokemon that trouble rain, such as Mega Venusaur. Politoed brings rain. Rain is too good. Clefable just doesn't have the stats to compete. Sure, good typing and amazing abilties are nice, but it doesn't have any base stat over 100. It just isn't bulky enough and is outclassed in CM roles by Cresselia. Mew loses too many speed ties to pokemon that used to be base 100, now have more speed. Chansey has laughable offensive presence, consisting of Seismic Toss. Definitely not the best.
 
Alright, some of the first pokemon analyses are up and can be linked to from the rankings.

Reserving

Name: Tornadus-Therian Forme

Typing: Flying
Base Stats: 84 / 105 / 85 / 115 / 95 / 126
Ability: Regenerator
What it Does: Tornadus-T's main roles are that of a pivot and fast attacker. It allows for teams to have a powerful and bulky pivot, that doesn't have to waste turns regaining health thanks to Regenerator and can easily provide momentum with U-Turn. It can use an Assault Vest well to increase its bulk, or carry Life Orb for versatility and power. Outside of pivoting, its ludicrous base 126 Speed allows it to revenge many threats or sweep a weakened team. It sees use on rain teams as well as it is able to benefit from with perfect accuracy Hurricanes and take out common threats to rain teams, such as Mega Abomasnow, Mega Venusaur, Toxicroak, Heliosk, and Gastrodon. Heat Wave, Focus Blast, Superpower, Hurricane, and Grass Knot give it plenty of coverage while U-Turn, Taunt, and Knock Off give it utility.
Why this Rank: Tornadus-Therian is in A- Rank because of its versatility and incredible speed. It is useful on balance and offensive teams that appreciate its ability to revenge kill many threats. Its coverage can be tailored to suit the need, with Grass Knot to kill bulky water pokemon like Suicune, Heat Wave and Focus Blast for Steel-types, and Knock Off to remove Eviolites and other useful items. It is very hard to switch into safely, and Tornadus-T could simply use U-Turn on switch-ins to regain momentum and put opponents in a pickle. It can also be difficult to kill as Regenerator takes away a lot of chip damage. Tornadus-T is far from unbeatable. 115 Special Attack isn't exceptional, and its bulk doesn't stand up to stronger hits. A weakness to Stealth Rock can be crippling and almost cancels out Regenerator, meaning Tornadus-T can't take as many hits. Special walls can beat it ( if it doesn't carry Taunt ) and many pokemon such as Raikou can take a hit and OHKO. It also has to be wary of Choice Scarf user who are strong enough and fast enough to deal heavy damage before Tornadus-T can hit them. Perhaps the greatest concern is the need for its main attack to be 70% accuracy Hurricane, which tends to miss in crucial moments. Overall, a great offensive pivot that can sponge weak hits and revenge kill weakened threats.
Manaphy
Self Supporting, Rain Wall Breaker, Crophy, Rain based Wall
Kyurem
Sub Roost, Specs, Mixed,
 
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