Tier Shift Viability Rankings (Complete Revamp)

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MaestroDeSWAG check the ts thread, it wasn't too long ago. I have tested it multiple times, first when mega gallade was such a threat, but the one I posted was from the same day I posted it.
Also it would probably be better if you took this to the regular ts thread, as atm you guys are discussing a mechanic, not a pokemon.
 
MaestroDeSWAG check the ts thread, it wasn't too long ago. I have tested it multiple times, first when mega gallade was such a threat, but the one I posted was from the same day I posted it.
Also it would probably be better if you took this to the regular ts thread, as atm you guys are discussing a mechanic, not a pokemon.
The mechanic was being discussed as it concerned ranking mega pinsir specifically, so i feel that it is not necessarily the wrong place, but you are right, for the most part discussion of mechanics doesn't belong here. And I was just over there, I saw what they were saying, but check the op of the tier shift thread- it clearly states that the Megas get the same boosts of the base forms, regardless.
 
I know this is the second time I've double posted on this thread, both quite recently, but the discussion is kinda dead.

Anyways, I feel typhlosion should move up since it got flash fire. I don't think its the kind of change that would make it just shoot up, but probably B+. It packs an insane amount of power with boosted eruption, but flash fire is kinda obvious.
 
I know this is the second time I've double posted on this thread, both quite recently, but the discussion is kinda dead.

Anyways, I feel typhlosion should move up since it got flash fire. I don't think its the kind of change that would make it just shoot up, but probably B+. It packs an insane amount of power with boosted eruption, but flash fire is kinda obvious.
Typhlosion is outclassed by ninetails. It gets drought to make up for the extra spatt which makes it stronger. It can also run nasty plot sets and it's power isn't reliant on it's hp. I think ninetails should go to A rank, as it has amazing power with the specs set, wallbreaking with ease, and can sweep with 115 speed. Solarbeam and a hidden power give it great coverage. It can also run the previously mentioned nasty plot sets. Sorry for shortness am on phone.
 
Typhlosion is outclassed by ninetails. It gets drought to make up for the extra spatt which makes it stronger. It can also run nasty plot sets and it's power isn't reliant on it's hp. I think ninetails should go to A rank, as it has amazing power with the specs set, wallbreaking with ease, and can sweep with 115 speed. Solarbeam and a hidden power give it great coverage. It can also run the previously mentioned nasty plot sets. Sorry for shortness am on phone.
Nine tails has drought, but typhlosion has eruption- one of the most powerful moves in the game- as well as the speed and power to effectively use it. Especially with a scarf. It's not so much a sweeper as a wallbreaker/ cleaner. The two aren't quite close enough to compare just straight up side by side.
 
Nine tails has drought, but typhlosion has eruption- one of the most powerful moves in the game- as well as the speed and power to effectively use it. Especially with a scarf. It's not so much a sweeper as a wallbreaker/ cleaner. The two aren't quite close enough to compare just straight up side by side.
OK now that I'm not on my phone I'm going to expand a bit more. They are actually very comparable. They have the same speed, similar power and similar bulk, with typhlosion being slightly better physically and ninetales somewhat better specially. It is true that typhlosion has eruption, which does make it slightly more powerful that ninetales right away, but ninetales has only slightly less power, the same speed and better overall bulk. The main factor that gives it the edge over typhlosion is that it is reliable. After just 1 switch-in on stealth rocks, eruption is weakened to 112 bp. Even after a layer of spikes, it only has 131 bp, weaker than ninetales. Switching in on something as weak as an amoonguss's giga drain is enough to make it weaker than ninetales. It is simply not realistic to expect the 150 bp all the time.
252 SpA Choice Specs Ninetales Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew in Sun: 328-387 (96.1 - 113.4%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 355-418 (104.1 - 122.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
but...
252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (131 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 310-366 (90.9 - 107.3%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
and
252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (112 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 265-313 (77.7 - 91.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
So as you can see, while in theory typhlosion is stronger, in actual battles, ninetales is generally stronger.
Ninetales to A Rank
 
OK now that I'm not on my phone I'm going to expand a bit more. They are actually very comparable. They have the same speed, similar power and similar bulk, with typhlosion being slightly better physically and ninetales somewhat better specially. It is true that typhlosion has eruption, which does make it slightly more powerful that ninetales right away, but ninetales has only slightly less power, the same speed and better overall bulk. The main factor that gives it the edge over typhlosion is that it is reliable. After just 1 switch-in on stealth rocks, eruption is weakened to 112 bp. Even after a layer of spikes, it only has 131 bp, weaker than ninetales. Switching in on something as weak as an amoonguss's giga drain is enough to make it weaker than ninetales. It is simply not realistic to expect the 150 bp all the time.
252 SpA Choice Specs Ninetales Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew in Sun: 328-387 (96.1 - 113.4%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 355-418 (104.1 - 122.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
but...
252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (131 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 310-366 (90.9 - 107.3%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
and
252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (112 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 265-313 (77.7 - 91.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
So as you can see, while in theory typhlosion is stronger, in actual battles, ninetales is generally stronger.
Ninetales to A Rank
Dont get me wrong, ninetails has its merits, but typhlosion is also totally viable. If it can switch in on a fire type move, suddenly he has the boost that ninetails gets from sun as well as higher SpA and eruption. So, I'm not sure what you're trying to prove. I'd say typhlosion is higher risk/ higher reward than ninetails, so sure, they're more or less comparable, but to say ninetails is just better isn't fair.
 
I agree Typhlosion has some viability in the tier, but Ninetails/Entei/*fire type* is generally a better option for most teams. Eruption on paper is absolutely fantastic, but coupled with a massive susceptibility to SR it often ends up being weaker than Ninetails. I would see it more around the C range, maybe C+ if we're feeling generous. B+ is way too high (I mean christ sake thats the same level as stuff like Chesnaught) for the niche of one move.
 
I agree Typhlosion has some viability in the tier, but Ninetails/Entei/*fire type* is generally a better option for most teams. Eruption on paper is absolutely fantastic, but coupled with a massive susceptibility to SR it often ends up being weaker than Ninetails. I would see it more around the C range, maybe C+ if we're feeling generous. B+ is way too high (I mean christ sake thats the same level as stuff like Chesnaught) for the niche of one move.
Um, but this is tier shift- what more does Chesnaught do here than it usually does? Typhlosion was already B before it got flash fire, also. So, now that it received this buff, shouldn't it move up? It's incredibly fast and powerful, plus it has eruption, just to improve its destructive power. I don't know, maybe I'm just crazy.
 
Um, but this is tier shift- what more does Chesnaught do here than it usually does? Typhlosion was already B before it got flash fire, also. So, now that it received this buff, shouldn't it move up? It's incredibly fast and powerful, plus it has eruption, just to improve its destructive power. I don't know, maybe I'm just crazy.
Its B as is? That's ridiculously high for its niche imo. If i had noticed that I wouldve asked for a drop to like C- imo lol. I really can't see it being as relevant as you say, especially with the rise of relevance of Gatr. Bulky waters are by no means hard to come by, and rocks are far from friendly to it. There are just better choices for Fire-Type wallbreaker is what it boils down to, really
 
I guess this is my first time putting something up for viability rank in Other Metas but here goes.
Unranked ===> Rank B

My thoughts:


Overview
Whimsicott is much better than I anticipated. With the right support, this cotton can certainly stall out a team. It has access to many support moves such as Leech Seed, Stun Spore, Memento, Encore, Taunt, etc. Its base 116 Speed, outspeeds many threats in the metagame besides "some" Choice Scarf users. Even if Whim goes against Scarf users, it has the ability Prankster which allows non attacking moves to go first. Though Whim does rely on hax to further its game in stalling. Despite its Fairy / Grass typing with a handful of weaknesses, Whimsicott still performs to the best of its ability crippling its enemies.

Moves
  • Encore
  • Stun Spore
  • Substitute
  • Leech Seed
  • Moonblast
  • Tail Wind
  • Memento
  • Taunt


These are pretty much the main moves that are being showcased with Whimsicott. Due to Prankster, its able to use Stun Spore to paralyze the foe even if the foe can outspeed it with Choice Scarf. It can also catch targets upon repeating the same move they just used from the move Encore. This move traps the foe while Whimsicott sets up either Substitute or Leech Seed. Rather it is indeed hard to get a hit on it when Whimsicott while it's behind a Sub because the foe under Encore and paralysis. With a 50/50 chance to paralyze, a turn can be wasted at that moment while Leech Seed depletes their HP giving Whimsicott the ability to set up more than just 4 Substitutes. Taunt combined with Encore causes the foe to use struggle.

Conclusion
Overall this thing is beyond annoying and causes many rage quits due to luck as well. Tailwind can also boost its team's Speed for a few turns allowing for some to set up and sweep. Its typing gives it immunity to Dragon-types giving it one less thing to worry about. Also with STAB Moonblast decreasing Special Attack and such would be very helpful making it even more difficult to take down. Memento will also cause the Opponent to switch out allowing its team to also set up as well.
 
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I guess this is my first time putting something up for viability rank in Other Metas but here goes.
Unranked ===> Rank B

My thoughts:


Overview
Whimsicott is much better than I anticipated. With the right support, this cotton can certainly stall out a team. It has access to many support moves such as Leech Seed, Stun Spore, Memento, Encore, Taunt, etc. Its base 116 Speed, outspeeds many threats in the metagame besides "some" Choice Scarf users. Even if Whim goes against Scarf users, it has the ability Prankster which allows non attacking moves to go first. Though Whim does rely on hax to further its game in stalling. Despite its Fairy / Grass typing with a handful of weaknesses, Whimsicott still performs to the best of its ability crippling its enemies.

Moves
  • Encore
  • Stun Spore
  • Substitute
  • Leech Seed
  • Moonblast
  • Tail Wind
  • Memento
  • Taunt


These are pretty much the main moves that are being showcased with Whimsicott. Due to Prankster, its able to use Stun Spore to paralyze the foe even if the foe can outspeed it with Choice Scarf. It can also catch targets upon repeating the same move they just used from the move Encore. This move traps the foe while Whimsicott sets up either Substitute or Leech Seed. Rather it is indeed hard to get a hit on it when Whimsicott while it's behind a Sub because the foe under Encore and paralysis. With a 50/50 chance to paralyze, a turn can be wasted at that moment while Leech Seed depletes their HP giving Whimsicott the ability to set up more than just 4 Substitutes. Taunt combined with Encore causes the foe to use struggle.

Conclusion
Overall this thing is beyond annoying and causes many rage quits due to luck as well. Tailwind can also boost its team's Speed for a few turns allowing for some to set up and sweep. Its typing gives it immunity to Dragon-types giving it one less thing to worry about. Also with STAB Moonblast decreasing Special Attack and such would be very helpful making it even more difficult to take down. Memento will also cause the Opponent to switch out allowing its team to also set up as well.
Memento, when used in tandem with a trapper like dugtrio or goth, can also let you set up all over the opponent. Dugtrio's probs better, since it's faster, but goth can trap anything. It's kinda niche, like geopass smeargle and stuff, but it could also work with devastating results.
 

thesecondbest

Just Kidding I'm First
Wobbuffet for s
reasoning is simple, it gains a lot more in each stat. Need I say more?
This is really nice for trapping stuff and freeing up a set up opportunity for broken stuff like pinsir :)
 
Just did what should have been done long ago: a complete revamp of the rankings. A lot of them may be slightly incorrect for now, but they are much better than they were and they can be ironed out in the future. Special thanks to Kingslayer2779 , Knight of Cydonia , and Peef Rimgar . They all worked really hard on this (harder than I did most likely) and are going to be the new council for this with me. There will be no more mini analyses or whatever the plural is for this thread as they take away from the main purpose. I am sorry this took so long, it is my fault for being inactive lately. In future there will be an update at least every two weeks.
 
Also, we absolutely missed a few mons. Something being unlisted at this point certainly doesn't mean unviable, there were just a few oversights.

A good mon to start discussing imo is Meloetta. Myself and Kingslayer both had very little experience, so we just kinda theorymonned it into A-. It could very well need higher or lower, we had literally no idea.
 
Great work! The list looks way better than before. However, one thing does immediately stick out to me: some ou pokemon seem to be really undervalued in the rankings despite still being good, namely charizard x, thundurus, garchomp, gengar, landorus-t, serperior and talonflame. These should all be B+ at the very least, most higher. Others like keldeo, landorus, heatran, latios, mega gyarados, terrakion, gliscor, clefable and chansey should go up a sub rank or two.

Some other nominations:
Glalie from B+ to A
Glalie is an extremely strong wallbreaker with a very powerful double-edge able to 2hko the likes of skarmory, along with a good speed tier of 110. It also has priority with ice shard and excellent coverage with earthquake. Finally, Glalie can choose between freeze dry to kill mola and suicune, taunt to stallbreak, and the famous "most powerful explosion in the game."

Mega Altaria A+ to A
Mega altaria isn't as good as it was when it was released. It no longer has the power to muscle through pokemon with the special set, and it also loses a lot of its bulk that made it so effective. The best set right now is probably sub dragon dance, but it isn't that great in this bulky meta.

Feraligatr B to A-
A strong and bulky sheer force user that can easily setup with dragon dance and sweep, and is able to beat pretty much every counter with a certain move: substitute for quagsire and mola, ice punch for chestaught, amoonguss and dragons, and superpower for ferrothorn. IMO sub dd with waterfall and ice punch is its best set.

Also mega manectric should be higher than D rank and klefki should be higher than C rank.
 
Great work! The list looks way better than before. However, one thing does immediately stick out to me: some ou pokemon seem to be really undervalued in the rankings despite still being good, namely charizard x, thundurus, garchomp, gengar, landorus-t, serperior and talonflame. These should all be B+ at the very least, most higher. Others like keldeo, landorus, heatran, latios, mega gyarados, terrakion, gliscor, clefable and chansey should go up a sub rank or two.

Some other nominations:
Glalie from B+ to A
Glalie is an extremely strong wallbreaker with a very powerful double-edge able to 2hko the likes of skarmory, along with a good speed tier of 110. It also has priority with ice shard and excellent coverage with earthquake. Finally, Glalie can choose between freeze dry to kill mola and suicune, taunt to stallbreak, and the famous "most powerful explosion in the game."

Mega Altaria A+ to A
Mega altaria isn't as good as it was when it was released. It no longer has the power to muscle through pokemon with the special set, and it also loses a lot of its bulk that made it so effective. The best set right now is probably sub dragon dance, but it isn't that great in this bulky meta.

Feraligatr B to A-
A strong and bulky sheer force user that can easily setup with dragon dance and sweep, and is able to beat pretty much every counter with a certain move: substitute for quagsire and mola, ice punch for chestaught, amoonguss and dragons, and superpower for ferrothorn. IMO sub dd with waterfall and ice punch is its best set.

Also mega manectric should be higher than D rank and klefki should be higher than C rank.
The OU mons were always much less used, so we had to plead inexperience with most of them. If we get some good arguments we'll very likely move them up.

I can't really disagree with the rest of your noms atm, but I will focus on what I don't agree with: Mega Manectric.

MegaMan doesn't really have much of a place in the TS meta in my opinion. We are absolutely drowning in electric types, which don't take up the mega slot. It's only real niche is Intimidate in voltturn, and voltturn teams almost always prefer having Mega-Beedrill for the raw power of a 155 Attack Adaptability U-turn. It's got its uses, sure, but I don't see room for it on most teams.
 
These have been improved so much. They look generally pretty good. I do have some ideas though:
Sigilyph from C+ to B or B+​
Sigilyph is basically a faster, weaker, slightly less bulky Reuniclus. It is better able to outspeed pokemon, and it still has ok bulk. It is fairly good against both offense and stall. I also 6-0d somebody twice in a row with it... Flinches op.

Mismagius from B- to B, Gengar and Haunter to B-
Mismagius is very fast and hits fairly hard. It is also able to set up and sweep via nasty plot and it is able to get past some of its checks while preventing revenge kills with substitute. Gengar and Haunter are a lot alike,​
except Haunter can use eviolite. They have a fairly nice speed tier, causing speed ties with pokemon such as Lati@s.​

Pikachu for D
Is this not explanatory? If this helps keep some people from using it, it will be completely worth adding! Please guys, don't use Pikachu. It is quite bad.

Mesprit for B-
It is a fairly good pokemon, with nice bulk, nice offensive stats, and ok speed. It also has an amazing movepool, with stealth rock and healing wish. I set it as B- because it is quite close to Azelf.

I agree with Pagoose on Altaria-Mega and Glalie-Mega.
Edit: oh God that formatting
 
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Pikachu for D
Is this not explanatory? If this helps keep some people from using it, it will be completely worth adding! Please guys, don't use Pikachu. It is quite bad.
You're misunderstanding D-Rank. D is "I have a niche but not a big one" rank, while Bidoof rank is the "stop" rank. I've talked about using Bidoof rank to IL, and he's indecisive on it at the moment so give us just a bit of time on that one.
Gengar and Haunter to B-
I wouldn't be opposed to a Gengar rise, but we decided there's almost literally no reason to use Haunter over gengar. The only set Haunter does even marginally better is Sub Will-O-Wisp, and even then Gengar can use Black Sludge to better effect than Haunter. If you can throw out some relevant calcs of Haunter doing something Gengar can't we may be convinced, but for now thats probably staying unranked.
 
Gogoat (PU) Stats are: 123 / 100 / 62 / 97 / 81 / 68 -> 138 / 115 / 77 / 112 / 96 / 83
With a specially defensive bulk up set this thing can be a monster.
Throh (PU) Stats are: 120 / 100 / 85 / 30 / 85 / 45 -> 135 / 115 / 100 / 45 / 100 / 60
Specially defensive bulk up set works well on this also.
 
Gonna make a few nominations:

Klinklang to b-/b
So this mon has been getting a lot of hate whenever I talk about it which is really stupid. Klinklang is awesome because it can set up subs+shift gears vs a ton of mons that are really good in this meta:

S Rank

Wobbufett
A+ Rank
Mola, Bulky DD altaria, Amoongus, Cresselia,
A rank
Aromatisse, non-Earth Power Kyurems, Lati@s-mega or not, Quagsire if you wanna pp stall for whatever reason, non-superpower Scizors.
A- Rank
Chesnaught, Doublade if you are patient enough as long as no sacred sword, Ferrothorn (you completely shut this thing down except for cb bulldoze lol) with a little less patience but stilll patience, Mew depending on set, Meloetta, Mega Sableye.

And that is just hard checking/countering those mons there are more that it can sometimes win vs. I don't get what it is hated just because it has a pretty bad movepool when you have shift gear and gear grind which are amazing moves, and return (please don't use wild charge lol) is a good coverage move in terms of neutral coverage, and of course every mon that learns tms learns sub. The main reason you use this over mmeta is lefties+gear grind+shift gear. I mean it isn't as good as metagross in some ways but it is still a really good mon in this meta.

Lilligant to A-/b+

I don't think this needs much explanation because we all know what this thing does, well also choice scarf is awesome because healing wish is such a great move. Sets up on a lot of the meta and hits hard. Oh also please do not use Petal Dance, use Giga Drain it is so much better. I will explain more need be but it is pretty self explanatory.

Mega Camerupt to a/a+:
How did this not happen I am genuinely confused like this has to be an oversight. Yeah it has a 4x water weakness and is slow, but this is followed by positive traits such as pretty much having no safe switch ins that completely wall it, its typing isn't half bad besides the water weakness, and it has really nice bulk even though it is worn down somewhat easily. I don't think there is much more to ask for in terms of a pokemon besides speed, but it doesn't need trick room to be good because it forces so many switches and tears bulky teams to shreds

.Mesprit to C: It is pretty much an inferior mew but healing wish is that good. I don't really have much more to say.

Whimsicott to B: First off I am not talking about any subseed set because those sets are pretty bad, sure they're annoying but that's all they have going for them. I am talking about the life orb set. It might not hit super hard but the nice amount of power it does have is coupled with the ability to support the team w/ moves like Encore, Tailwind, Grasswhistle(Peef Rimgar), Stun Spore, Memento, etc. It is also really fast when attacking and might I add that Giga Drain and Moonblast (and maybe hp fire) are solid moves for this mon. Sure it is stopped by heatran and other steels but let's look to the next nomination which remedies this issue.

Dugtrio to A: HOW IS THIS NOT RANKED??? It is an incredible mon for offensive teams as its ability to trap so many mons such as Heatran and Rhydon and a lot more. Of course it doesn't have the most power but it's being use for a revenge killer, not a sweeper. It also stops electric types from volt switching out unlike gothitelle. Yes Gothitelle has trick+bulk but Dugtrio has a better offensive presence an typing.

There's a lot more that I have but I want to get this post out there so it can be seen while I'm asleep. If any mon that you think needs more reasoning, just post and I will provide said information.
 
Can someone explain why wobbufet is S rank to me? I get why it was so good in gen iv, but w/ team preview, I don't see how it could be as good. In fact, it loses less HP from an attack than in standard play, so I almost think it'd be worse
 
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