Other Subtle but important nerfs

[Thorhammer]

Dragon still has big points from having multiple 600 BST Pokemon bouncing around with 120+ power STABs. If Ghost had that, I'd call it the most threatening offensive type in the game hands down. In terms of matchups, it's just too good.

Overall, I'd say the offensive buffs to Ghost and to a lesser extent Dark are turning out far more important than any losses Dragon got. Dark may even have improved as a defensive type now despite gaining a weakness just because resisting Ghost is so huge.

 

[RzK]

Starmie has been nerfed. The introduction of Aegislash, who can safely switch into Starmie and trap it, the special moves nerf, and the Assault Vest. I predict the rise of Tentacruel as a premier rapid spinner. It has Poison STAB and better bulk. Metagross seems doomed for UU.

 

[JayHankEdLyon]

- Starmie's niche is arguably contested by Protean Greninja; who; while he does not get Thunderbolt; gets STAB Ice Beam, and gets attacks such as Dark Pulse; and even U-Turn for momentum.

Somehow I doubt Gren's gonna take Starmie's niche as a fast spinner.

Given that would require Rapid Spin.

 

[SomeoneStoleTheNameIWant]

First off, that's terrible and you should feel bad. ParaFlinch is the lowest of low.

Actually, paraflinch is a viable tactic. Yes, it can be annoying to face, and yes, it's subject to "hax", and yes, it's primarily luck based, but it's still a strategy. I've seen many a person post saying that Pokemon is about maximizing your chances of winning, and that's really what competitive Pokemon is about. Why do you think certain 'mons run Focus Miss with its 30% chance of missing? Because there's a 70% chance it'll do its job and provide coverage needed by a particular user. Paraflinch is no different; you run the risk of it failing, but it's a risk you're willing to take. If you don't like it, go home. That's competitive Pokemon for ya.

I mean seriously, we're taking a game primarily marketed towards children and abusing every aspect of it to win. The last thing you should do is bitch about that.

 

[JayHankEdLyon]

I mean seriously, we're taking a game primarily marketed towards children and abusing every aspect of it to win. The last thing you should do is bitch about that.

I've already said my piece and said that was that, but I feel the need to address this.

The "primarily marketed towards children" aspect goes right out the door here on Smogon, and you should really be aware of that before you continue posting here. You're free to disagree with my viewpoint (note that I never said paraflinch wasn't a viable tactic, only a dickish one, so do be kind enough to get that viewpoint right), but this is a place that bans cheaper aspects of the game, such as evasion moves, and creates tiers to separate swaths of pokemon to ensure a far greater variety of play. This is an artificial meta created and sustained by an older demographic than that being marketed to by the games themselves. Saying essentially "whatever just for kids" is against the entire ethos of this site.

Does this mean we have to be SERIOUS ADULT MODE ALL THE TIME? Hell no. But don't demean everyone here, yourself included, by either unintentionally or willfully forgetting all of the analysis and hard work that goes into the running and maintaining of this environment as an optimized competitive game.

(And this is coming from a 23-year-old who will gladly admit to loving the game that IS primarily for kids, too. X and Y as games aren't even guilty pleasures to me, just pleasures, and they're certainly marketed to a younger audience. It's just that this site isn't.)

 

[SomeoneStoleTheNameIWant]

Saying essentially "whatever just for kids" is against the entire ethos of this site.

Does this mean we have to be SERIOUS ADULT MODE ALL THE TIME? Hell no. But don't demean everyone here, yourself included, by either unintentionally or willfully all of the analysis and hard work that goes into the running and maintaining of this environment.

Whoops, sorry about! I honestly didn't mean to come off like that. I'm typically one to humorously belittle/tease, and that's what I was trying to do there.

I mean, I have an account here and I enjoy competitive Pokemon thoroughly and I'm 23 for crying out loud. That's my bad. There's a ton of work that goes into all of this and I have nothing but the utmost respect for that; I'm just saying that paraflinch is no more dickish than something like hyper-offensive sweeping or Stallrein (Goddamn I love me some Stallrein, that hunk of ice-cold swag); is me flinching your Pokemon any more dickish than me KO'ing them? I seriously doubt it. Using paraflinch doesn't mean you should feel bad or that you're terrible. Just like I said on the UT Stall thread, just because you use a particular playstyle doesn't mean you're some kind of mass-murdering, child-eating monster.

Now, evasion moves, on the other hand... That's where the child-snatchers are.

Just as I'm free to disagree with you, you're entitled to do the same with me, but please don't assume I'm out to demean everyone here (and don't patronize me with your big words; me no like big words :P).

Thanks for the heads up, though. I'll try to watch out to make sure I don't ridicule the community.

Now, back to the thread:

It seems like, with the weakening of a lot of special moves and Hidden Power and the introduction of Assault Vest and the generally more specially-defensive Fairies, pretty much all special attackers are getting nerfed a bit this Gen.

 

[JayHankEdLyon]

Unrelated to the above, I actually foresee a drop in the usage of Ferrothorn, given a series of tiny nerfs chipping away at what makes it useful:

-Hazards have a gigantic new enemy in Defog, making Ferrothorn's role as a dedicated setter threatened to become more obscure
-Fairies are immune to Dragon, making Ferro's role as dragon resister a bit less necessary
-Fire-types and fire moves are suddenly a bit more viable, given the aforementioned Defog making Stealth Rock a bit less OP, but also because of Fire's resistance to Fairy and (most importantly for Ferro) the nerf of Rain making what was often a 2x weakness a 4x weakness again
-Grass types have been buffed to ignore powders, meaning pokemon that can switch in on Ferro's Leech Seed may be a bit more common
-Even Thunder Wave has been nerfed to not effect Electric types, meaning two entire types are now immune to Ferro's speed-controlling abilities

Singularly, these nerfs aren't that huge, but together, I imagine they combine to make Ferro users seriously question the point of using a slot on the poor durian over another Steel-type. All isn't lost, of course, especially given it resists both of Azumarill's STABs (on the flipside, though, it's outsped and murdered by Belly Drum Superpower), but I just don't think we'll see as much of Ferro as we did in Gen V.

 

[Raikaria]

Somehow I doubt Gren's gonna take Starmie's niche as a fast spinner.

Given that would require Rapid Spin.

I was thinking more of the niche of 'Speedy Special attacking water type that has so much coverage it is hard to switch into'. Starmie didn't always run Rapid Spin. Life Orb Starmie to break holes in things may have carried 4 attacks; or even Recover to reduce hazard/LO damage as it forces a a switch.

And Starmie can't exactly spin with Ageislash around. A spinblocker with STAB Shadow Sneak and Pursuit off Base 150 Atk that will likely be incredibly common? Yeah; good luck with that Starmie. Greninja may not remove that niche; but it's certainly a lot harder for Starmie to spin.

 

[JayHankEdLyon]

I was thinking more of the niche of 'Speedy Special attacking water type that has so much coverage it is hard to switch into'. Starmie didn't always run Rapid Spin. Life Orb Starmie to break holes in things may have carried 4 attacks; or even Recover to reduce hazard/LO damage as it forces a a switch.

And Starmie can't exactly spin with Ageislash around. A spinblocker with STAB Shadow Sneak and Pursuit off Base 150 Atk that will likely be incredibly common? Yeah; good luck with that Starmie. Greninja may not remove that niche; but it's certainly a lot harder for Starmie to spin.

Ah, gotcha, when I think of Starmie's niche I think fast spinner.

In any case, talk of Greninja as a Water-type threat is sorta complicated, seeing as Greninja's ability is sort of...I mean it's really unique. Sure, it starts off as a Water type, but that soon goes away unless it uses a Water-type attack. In practice, it's just as much of a fast Ice-type threat if it uses Ice Beam, or a fast Bug-type threat if it uses U-turn. And it isn't as if those defenses make its Water typing TOO relevant on the switch (yes, it's good, but it certainly isn't anyone's definition of bulky). In my mind, it's a Water-type in the same way non-Imposter Ditto's a Normal-type: temporarily and somewhat irrelevantly.

I think it's sort of impossible to compare Greninja with anything we've ever seen in the game, because nothing has ever gotten STAB on every possible attack. Starmie may drop below OU for the first time ever, but I don't think it's the fault of our favorite new frog.

 

[Raikaria]

Both are fast special attackers capable of Water STAB; but Greninja gets STAB on whatever it wants to and dosen't get trapped by Ageislash. The similarities betwen the roles the two can play with LO sets is very strong; with the exception of coverage moves. [Greninja cannot run Boltbeam; but can run Dark Pulse]

Starmie's pretty outclassed as anything but a spinner by Greninja now; and as a spinner it's Ageislash fodder.

Admittedly it's hard to make a direct comparison because of Protean; but with Ageislash; just not being a Psychic-type is a huge boon.

Greninja is certainly a factor in the likely fall of everyone's favorite Starfish; but it's moreso Ageislash being a literally perfect counter to Starmie as well.

 

[Thorhammer]

Greninja is certainly a factor in the likely fall of everyone's favorite Starfish; but it's moreso Ageislash being a literally perfect counter to Starmie as well.

A Pokemon that cannot resist Water is not a perfect counter to Starmie.

252 SpA LO Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Shield Forme Aegislash: 139-164 (53.5 - 62.9%)

If Aegislash switches in, it's risking a 2HKO if Starmie uses Hydro Pump and doesn't miss, which will destroy it before it does anything but Shadow Sneak. If Aegislash runs 252 HP, it should only takes 50% damage per hit on the worst damage rolls, but it'll still be left crippled, since it needs that bulk to guarantee its own switch-ins, and it's screwed if it's already been making use of it.

 

[Squid Ninja]

Unrelated to the above, I actually foresee a drop in the usage of Ferrothorn, given a series of tiny nerfs chipping away at what makes it useful:

-Hazards have a gigantic new enemy in Defog, making Ferrothorn's role as a dedicated setter threatened to become more obscure
-Fairies are immune to Dragon, making Ferro's role as dragon resister a bit less necessary
-Fire-types and fire moves are suddenly a bit more viable, given the aforementioned Defog making Stealth Rock a bit less OP, but also because of Fire's resistance to Fairy and (most importantly for Ferro) the nerf of Rain making what was often a 2x weakness a 4x weakness again
-Grass types have been buffed to ignore powders, meaning pokemon that can switch in on Ferro's Leech Seed may be a bit more common
-Even Thunder Wave has been nerfed to not effect Electric types, meaning two entire types are now immune to Ferro's speed-controlling abilities

Singularly, these nerfs aren't that huge, but together, I imagine they combine to make Ferro users seriously question the point of using a slot on the poor durian over another Steel-type. All isn't lost, of course, especially given it resists both of Azumarill's STABs (on the flipside, though, it's outsped and murdered by Belly Drum Superpower), but I just don't think we'll see as much of Ferro as we did in Gen V.

Not sure about the Dragon resister part. I don't doubt some teams will prefer to run Steel types to force Dragons to suffer the -2 Sp. Atk loss or to stay locked in Outrage. Running fairies or steel types against Dragons will be a matter of choice, with either of them having advantages and disadvantages.

 

[kpatable]

-Grass types have been buffed to ignore powders, meaning pokemon that can switch in on Ferro's Leech Seed may be a bit more common

Grass types were immune to Leech Seed last gen, too, so that aspect hasn't changed for Ferrothorn. However, they are now immune to Spore and Sleep Powder (probably the most used "spore and powder" moves), so Breloom, Roserade, and the like are all the more counterable. But I think it's kind of funny that Grass types will now be the best counters to Grass types. But now with Poison and Fairy on the rise, I could see a Grass type switching into Breloom's Spore and hitting back with a Poison or Fairy attack, especially Grass/Poisons since they resist Breloom's STABs.

 

[JayHankEdLyon]

Grass types were immune to Leech Seed last gen, too, so that aspect hasn't changed for Ferrothorn. However, they are now immune to Spore and Sleep Powder (probably the most used "spore and powder" moves), so Breloom, Roserade, and the like are all the more counterable. But I think it's kind of funny that Grass types will now be the best counters to Grass types. But now with Poison and Fairy on the rise, I could see a Grass type switching into Breloom's Spore and hitting back with a Poison or Fairy attack, especially Grass/Poisons since they resist Breloom's STABs.

What I'm saying is that Grass-types may be seen a little more BECAUSE of their new ability to powders and such. Leech Seed hasn't changed at all, but it loses some effectiveness if Grass-types (read: switch-ins) become more popular.

This is all I'm saying on this because I just reread the thread opener and I'm doing almost exactly what it says not to do, barring my non-mention of steel's adjusted resistances:

Don't bring up a mon that may see decreased usage due to indirect effects, such as the introduction of the fairy types, hazard management, steel's adjusted resistances, weather changes, major move changes (e.g. Grass type immunity to Spore) and so forth. We have a general discussion and other specific threads for that.

My bad.

 

[T-Bolt]

What I'm saying is that Grass-types may be seen a little more BECAUSE of their new ability to powders and such. Leech Seed hasn't changed at all, but it loses some effectiveness if Grass-types (read: switch-ins) become more popular.

This is all I'm saying on this because I just reread the thread opener and I'm doing almost exactly what it says not to do, barring my non-mention of steel's adjusted resistances:

My bad.

Funny thing is that he tells us not to talk about steel's adjusted resistances, then gives an example discussing how steel losing it's dark and ghost resistance affects the meta in the OP.

 

[LtDan]

Ghost-type Pokemon aren't affected by Shadow Tag only; Magnet Pull will still keep Aegislash from switching. Not that Magnezone will ever want to switch into Aegislash with it possessing Sacred Sword.

Nope. Ghost-types are immune to ALL forms of trapping, including Shadow Tag, Arena Trap, Magnet Pull, Spider Web (lol), Mean Look, and Block. Aegislash's Ghost typing allows it to bypass Magnet Pull.

Seems like the only dragon that can safely combat fairies is a Garchomp with its base speed and Iron head capability

For sake of argument, would Poison Jab ever be worth running on 'chomp? It still gives that Fairy coverage, as well as a way to hit Pokemon like Celebi or Breloom for SE damage.

 

[blue_yoshi]

Nope. Ghost-types are immune to ALL forms of trapping, including Shadow Tag, Arena Trap, Magnet Pull, Spider Web (lol), Mean Look, and Block. Aegislash's Ghost typing allows it to bypass Magnet Pull.


For sake of argument, would Poison Jab ever be worth running on 'chomp? It still gives that Fairy coverage, as well as a way to hit Pokemon like Celebi or Breloom for SE damage.

On a team i used to run in OU/Ubers, I used to carry poison jabin' garchomp just for those two previously mentioned pokemon. It was a very non standard chomp that ran;

EarthQuake
Brcik Break
Poison Jab
Dragon Claw

Why? Because i got tired of standard sets and wanted to catch people off gaurd. For the same reason i made a Brick Breaking Kyogre (how many chanseys and blisseys did i KO on switch ins? Plenty). I know these are all gimmicky and very, very niche spots, and probably serve no real combat utility, but the idea of running poison jab or other strange combos is not completely unheard of. I'm not sure how likely it is to see a poison jab as the standard on any dragon, but if i had to wager a guess, i would say fair to midland of seeing garchomps running it maybe 40-55% of the time. (All anecdotal, but eh, i could see it happening)

 

[Karxrida]

Unrelated to the above, I actually foresee a drop in the usage of Ferrothorn, given a series of tiny nerfs chipping away at what makes it useful:

-Hazards have a gigantic new enemy in Defog, making Ferrothorn's role as a dedicated setter threatened to become more obscure
-Fairies are immune to Dragon, making Ferro's role as dragon resister a bit less necessary
-Fire-types and fire moves are suddenly a bit more viable, given the aforementioned Defog making Stealth Rock a bit less OP, but also because of Fire's resistance to Fairy and (most importantly for Ferro) the nerf of Rain making what was often a 2x weakness a 4x weakness again
-Grass types have been buffed to ignore powders, meaning pokemon that can switch in on Ferro's Leech Seed may be a bit more common
-Even Thunder Wave has been nerfed to not effect Electric types, meaning two entire types are now immune to Ferro's speed-controlling abilities

Singularly, these nerfs aren't that huge, but together, I imagine they combine to make Ferro users seriously question the point of using a slot on the poor durian over another Steel-type. All isn't lost, of course, especially given it resists both of Azumarill's STABs (on the flipside, though, it's outsped and murdered by Belly Drum Superpower), but I just don't think we'll see as much of Ferro as we did in Gen V.

Ferrothorn is still an amazing defensive pivot, so I don't see it dropping anytime soon. I run Ferro without Spikes or SR, and it works great at tricking Espeon into switching in to be 2HKO'd by Power Whip, Paralyzing his Checks/Counters, or just walling with Leech Seed. Fairies running around just gives it a new type to wall, and Poison's (possible) increased usage is just icing on the cake.

 

[LtDan]

Hide

On a team i used to run in OU/Ubers, I used to carry poison jabin' garchomp just for those two previously mentioned pokemon. It was a very non standard chomp that ran;

EarthQuake
Brcik Break
Poison Jab
Dragon Claw

Why? Because i got tired of standard sets and wanted to catch people off gaurd. For the same reason i made a Brick Breaking Kyogre (how many chanseys and blisseys did i KO on switch ins? Plenty). I know these are all gimmicky and very, very niche spots, and probably serve no real combat utility, but the idea of running poison jab or other strange combos is not completely unheard of. I'm not sure how likely it is to see a poison jab as the standard on any dragon, but if i had to wager a guess, i would say fair to midland of seeing garchomps running it maybe 40-55% of the time. (All anecdotal, but eh, i could see it happening)

I was thinking something along these lines:

Garchomp @ Life Orb
Jolly, 252 Att/252 Spe/4 HP
- Swords Dance
- Dragon Claw/Outrage
- Earthquake
- Poison Jab

 

[Schpoonman]

I think Poison Jab would actually be preferable to Iron Head, if you were going to run coverage for Fairies. Togekiss is hit harder by Stone Edge and STAB Earthquake is only barely weaker than SE Poison Jab or Iron Head (150 BP as opposed to 160).

 

[Shadow-XIII]

Just wanted to point out that the BP of Draco meteor is now 130 and dragon pulse is 85, while dragon claw and outrage are the same. In addition, there is no way to get soul dew yet, if there will ever be a way, seeing as how GameFreak rolling. Aaaaaand (I think all) fairies have good-to-ridiculous Sp.D. It's like GameFreak wants Lati@s (and Hydregion) to be royally screwed.

 

[Spenstar]

Just wanted to point out that the BP of Draco meteor is now 130 and dragon pulse is 85, while dragon claw and outrage are the same. In addition, there is no way to get soul dew yet, if there will ever be a way, seeing as how GameFreak rolling. Aaaaaand (I think all) fairies have good-to-ridiculous Sp.D. It's like GameFreak wants Lati@s (and Hydregion) to be royally screwed.

That really is bothersome given the Latis' statuses as actual legends. Im holding out for a Dragon/Fairy retype or an epic nee toy to give them an edge...

If not, I am very dissapointed in GF

 

[56k]

The fact that megastones can't be tricked really makes running a choice tricker more difficult at times. Once you use trick it completely gives away your pokemon's moveset and item and even EVs/nature sometimes. If you try tricking specs onto a scizor who has scizorite, you've just made your bad position worse.

 

[noobcubed]

The fact that megastones can't be tricked really makes running a choice tricker more difficult at times. Once you use trick it completely gives away your pokemon's moveset and item and even EVs/nature sometimes. If you try tricking specs onto a scizor who has scizorite, you've just made your bad position worse.

True but the things that Choice Trickers really target with Trick are walls, since (a) they tend to be the Pokemon they can't just kill with attacks, and (b) they are the Pokemon most hurt by being Choice-locked. And I don't think there are any real walls amongst the megas, they are all bulky attackers.

 

[SomeoneStoleTheNameIWant]

True but the things that Choice Trickers really target with Trick are walls, since (a) they tend to be the Pokemon they can't just kill with attacks, and (b) they are the Pokemon most hurt by being Choice-locked. And I don't think there are any real walls amongst the megas, they are all bulky attackers.

Right-o. Most Mega-Evolutions tend to stick to hyper-offense or tanking (and whatever it is that Abomasnow is supposed to be doing). Shame... I was hoping for Mega-Miltank, with like Lugia bulk...

However, 56k had a point. Although yes, Choice Trickers generally target Walls, there's still a definite drawback in that (a) the opponent can potentially switch in on the Choice Tricker and set up, and (b) (a bit more indirectly) people may potentially (can't stress that enough) be less likely to run Walls and instead opt for the bulky tanks/nukes that are the Megas, thus cutting down on the niche that Choice Trickers hold.