Other Subtle but important nerfs

[ShravanP]

This thread is basically the opposite of the "Shiny New Toys" thread. It's here to discuss previously competitive pokemon that got nerfed by subtle changes. I hope that Bummer doesn't mind if I copy the rules of his thread over to this one.

Gen VI brought plenty of changes that negatively affected mons from earlier gens, be it a new type, new ability or mechanic changes. And then there are some other changes where the affected mon can perform worse than usual, but may not have worsened to such an extent that it'd warrant a thread of its own. Which is where this topic comes in. If you've become aware or discovered something that gives an old mon a new disadvantage or incapacitates / takes away one of its old toys (e.g. change in base power, side effect, etc.), but aren't confident that it would require a thread of its own, then post about it here and I'll try to compile them all in this first post. Some guidelines to start us off:

• Pokemon introduced in Gen VI are new by default and most likely already have their own thread, so don't post sets for them here.
• Don't bring up a mon that may see decreased usage due to indirect effects, such as the introduction of the fairy types, hazard management, steel's adjusted resistances, weather changes, major move changes (e.g. Grass type immunity to Spore) and so forth. We have a general discussion and other specific threads for that.
• If the new nerf is something that already has a thread of its own, you might as well post it in said thread.

With that out of the way, let's bring up some examples. If you don't have anything to come with, feel free to discuss the sets/discoveries that's already been mentioned.

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Breloom

Breloom: One thing that I'd like to mention right away is another important loss for Breloom: Low Sweep's base power being increased from 60 to 65 no longer qualifies it for Technician.

Steel resistance changes affecting playstyles

Skarm doesn't resist ghost or dark moves now.

252 Atk Adamant CB Tyranitar Crunch vs 252 HP, 252 Def Impish Skarmory: 37.72 - 44.31%. 55.98 - 66.46% at -1 Def. Note that many Skarms don't actually maximize Def. Skarm can't really Roost stall this and whirlwind would drop him down to 20% HP

LO Gengar does along the lines of 30.56 - 36.26% to max SpD heatran with shadow ball, then finish it with a 60.62 - 72.02% focus blast. Such a heatran has no Speed EVs~.

That same shadow ball also does 59.01 - 69.47% to 252 HP, 252 Atk Scizor. It's 31.1 - 36.91% coming from Sash Alakazam. These are all decent chunks that become more and more important later in the game when everything has been chipped at already, and nullifies certain switch ins.

 

[LilOu]

Talking about Breloom, it got nerfed in several ways (without counting Low Sweep).

1. The move it loved so much, Spore, is now not going to affect Grass-types.
2. It's Fighting STAB is now resisted by Fairy.
3. New Pokémons with new not so seen (or never seen) type combinations now give a serious disadvantage to Breloom, such as Talonflame's Fire/Flying or Aegislash's Ghost/Steel. Also Trevenant's Ghost/Grass hard walls Breloom.
4. Sleep Counter no longer resets when switching out.

 

[ogasian]

I dunno, but Breloom can now switch in to Sleep Powder/Spore itself, which is an okay buff itself. Also, what common grass types are there in OU? Ferro, Loom, Saur. None exactly like a Focus Punch to the face. Yeah, it requres a lot of prediction though. Ferro ain't switchin in, Breloom has shit bulk, and Saut is really only seen on Sun teams (which Got a HUGE nerf)

 

[android]

You forgot Celebi. It counters Breloom a lot harder now that it's immune to Spore.

 

[dekzeh]

There's also the two new Grass/Ghost pokemon, Trevenant and Gourgeist, they hard counter Breloom being immune to Spore, fighting moves and resisting Bullet Seed.

 

[Lexxikun]

I dunno, but Breloom can now switch in to sleep moves itself, which is an okay buff itself. Also, what common grass types are there in OU? Ferro, Loom, Saur. None exactly like a Focus Punch to the face. Yeah, it requres a lot of prediction though. Ferro ain't switchin in, Breloom has shit bulk, and Saut is really only seen on Sun teams (which Got a HUGE nerf)

It can't switch into all Sleep-inducing moves, just Spore or Powder moves.

 

[JayHankEdLyon]

There's a nerf to a significant portion of Jirachis and Togekisses out there in that Electric types can universally counter ParaFlinch.

Obviously Jirachi got nerfed a lot more than that, given Ghost and Dark suddenly hurting it, and Togekiss got buffed like crazy with its new Fairy typing, but neither of those are exactly subtle.

 

[ogasian]

It can't switch into all Sleep-inducing moves, just Spore or Powder moves.

Yeah, but lol@Hypnosis and Dark Void is all the way in Ubers, I'll clear up my post.

 

[Lord Jesseus]

I dunno, but Breloom can now switch in to Sleep Powder/Spore itself, which is an okay buff itself.

It also doesn't get completely fucked over by Magic Bounce users switching in on the Spore.
Which, as someone who doesn't use Breloom but does use Magic Bounce, is kinda saddening. :(

 

[Aldrius]

I dunno, but Breloom can now switch in to Sleep Powder/Spore itself, which is an okay buff itself. Also, what common grass types are there in OU? Ferro, Loom, Saur. None exactly like a Focus Punch to the face. Yeah, it requres a lot of prediction though. Ferro ain't switchin in, Breloom has shit bulk, and Saut is really only seen on Sun teams (which Got a HUGE nerf)

Well, don't forget that Venusaur has Venusaurite too now. Which has solid defenses and resists both of Breloom's STAB attacks.

 

[DDRMaster]

I dunno, but Breloom can now switch in to Sleep Powder/Spore itself, which is an okay buff itself. Also, what common grass types are there in OU? Ferro, Loom, Saur. None exactly like a Focus Punch to the face. Yeah, it requres a lot of prediction though. Ferro ain't switchin in, Breloom has shit bulk, and Saut is really only seen on Sun teams (which Got a HUGE nerf)

Poison Heal Breloom could always switch into status moves as long as it was in for a turn previously (for Toxic Orb to activate). Spore/Sleep Powder immunity does get it that first switch in more easily now, but it's definitely a nerf overall.

Yeah, but lol@Hypnosis and Dark Void is all the way in Ubers, I'll clear up my post.

Come Pokemon Bank, Smeargle will be using Dark Void over Spore, just so it can Sleep Grass-types and Pokemon with Overcoat.

That's another thing, actually. Breloom can't Spore Pokemon with Overcoat either (I'm pretty sure the Ability blocks all powder moves, but I've only personally tried it with Sleep Powder). Mandibuzz and Escavelier seem to be the only Pokemon that would actually use Overcoat, though, and both are hit neutrally by Fighting.

 

[JayHankEdLyon]

That's another thing, actually. Breloom can't Spore Pokemon with Overcoat either (I'm pretty sure the Ability blocks all powder moves, but I've only personally tried it with Sleep Powder). Mandibuzz and Escavelier seem to be the only Pokemon that would actually use Overcoat, though, and both are hit neutrally by Fighting.

Also Safety Goggles block Spore and other powders, and is likely to be common on Crobat to counter Grass even harder.

God DAMN am I excited about Crobat.

 

[KurashiDragon]

I think Salamence has it pretty hard right now. The nerf to all dragons with the fairies was bad enough for it but, it doesn't really seem to have a way of dealing with fairies apart from Iron Tail. (which it wont even get until December) We might see Salamence go to low OU/BL this gen.

 

[zferolie]

I think Salamence has it pretty hard right now. The nerf to all dragons with the fairies was bad enough for it but, it doesn't really seem to have a way of dealing with fairies apart from Iron Tail. We might see Salamence go to low OU/BL this gen.

Doesn't it get steel wing? I mean, yeah, it's steel wing, but it's something

 

[KurashiDragon]

Doesn't it get steel wing? I mean, yeah, it's steel wing, but it's something

It's got 70 BP and 90 acc. IMO that's even worse than Iron Tail.

 

[zferolie]

It's got 70 BP and 90 acc. IMO that's even worse than Iron Tail.

Yeah that's true... man Salamance really is screwed by Fairies. Though, it still has powerful attack, and many fairies have kinda low defense, so it's not TOTALLY screwed. pretty screwed yes, but not totally.

I also want to say that Sableye and Spiritomb loose their special charm now that they are weak to fairy. Even Sableye with its weakish defenses was great because it took no SE damage other then scrappy pokemon. Now though... I wonder for the fates of those pokemon...

 

[Manaphy]

Salamence itself actually doesn't really have a problem taking out Fairy-types, for example no Fairy has a Defense above 95, bar Carbink. It's Choice Scarf-niche definitely takes a hit because Outrage is much harder to spam, and DD sets don't appreciate Charizard X existing.

There's a nerf to a significant portion of Jirachis and Togekisses out there in that Electric types can universally counter ParaFlinch.

Obviously Jirachi got nerfed a lot more than that, given Ghost and Dark suddenly hurting it, and Togekiss got buffed like crazy with its new Fairy typing, but neither of those are exactly subtle.

We shouldn't be talking about Jirachi really, we have no way to know if it had a type change or movepool changes.

 

[ShravanP]

There's a nerf to a significant portion of Jirachis and Togekisses out there in that Electric types can universally counter ParaFlinch.

Obviously Jirachi got nerfed a lot more than that, given Ghost and Dark suddenly hurting it, and Togekiss got buffed like crazy with its new Fairy typing, but neither of those are exactly subtle.

Oh interesting, how is it that Eletric types universally counter ParaFlinch? Is there a new mechanic change causing this?

 

[WildShot]

Doesn't it get steel wing? I mean, yeah, it's steel wing, but it's something

HAH. Steel Wing. You jest. Steel Wing couldn't do crud to any Fairy that's worth its salt.

Yeah, though. Salamence is probably going to take a dive this Generation.

 

[Lord Jesseus]

Poison Heal Breloom could always switch into status moves as long as it was in for a turn previously (for Toxic Orb to activate). Spore/Sleep Powder immunity does get it that first switch in more easily now, but it's definitely a nerf overall.

Not all Brelooms run Toxic Orb though, in fact if I recall correctly Technician was all the rage in Gen V.

 

[LilOu]

Oh interesting, how is it that Eletric types universally counter ParaFlinch? Is there a new mechanic change causing this?

Now Electric-types cannot be paralyzed and resist Iron Head / Air Slash, so, in theory, they counter ParaFlinch.

 

[Lord Jesseus]

We shouldn't be talking about Jirachi really, we have no way to know if it had a type change or movepool changes.

The same can be said for any Pokemon that isn't available yet. It makes more sense to assume that it will stay the same than to bar all discussion in case it's different.

 

[Shroomisaur]

Yes, my dear Breloom is going to hate the Grass Spore immunity now, and it will definitely despise Aegislash. However, it's not all doom and gloom, because instead of Low Sweep, Breloom now has a buffed 60 BP Rock Tomb. This will be even more useful than Low Sweep as it has excellent coverage and a reliable 95 accuracy now. It easily takes out things like Talonflame or Togekiss and carries the same Speed-lowering effect.

As a new novelty, Breloom can even use the newly-buffed Fury Cutter if it really wants to KO Celebi:

252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Fury Cutter (40 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 343-406 (84.9 - 100.49%) -- 81.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Not to mention, Breloom still has tremendous power and priority that will be just as important with Greninja and such running around. Essentially, I see these changes causing Breloom to require a bit more prediction, but it will still remain a powerful threat.

As for Salamence, it's not going to "take a dive". Really? People are seriously overhyping Fairies. As already stated, very few of them will be viable in OU, and they all suffer from low defense which Salamence can exploit. Mence just won't be able to mindlessly spam Outrage anymore (all Dragons share that same factor this gen). The Dragon that I do see suffering is Haxorus, since his Outrage was his claim to fame.

 

[FrostFire]

^ Just briefly in reference to the above; While Breloom does get buffed Rock Tomb and Fury Cutter (very niche), it also wants to run Mach Punch, Bullet Seed (manadatory), Spore and Swords Dance. I'm just pointing out that, no matter what way you slice it, Breloom is going to end up being hard-walled by something depending on what move it's not running - because of Spore and the unpredictability of Sleep, this wasn't strictly the case in gen 5. Oh, and another thing - Forretress gets Overcoat. Would this be better than Sturdy now? It would allow Forry to act as a pretty damn good check to Breloom with Gyro Ball and Spore Immunity.

 

[lmitchell0012]

I think we should also mention the ghost type change. I could be wrong but if I'm not mistaken ghosts are no longer affected by "trapping" abilities. So stuff like arena trap and magnet pull (aegislash) won't work on them. I'm not sure if this works with moves as well (mean look, block, etc).