Other Subtle but important nerfs

[JayHankEdLyon]

About the Jirachi nerf. With steel not resisting dark or ghost anymore it gets hit by those moves harder now.

--Manaphy- was mentioning in response to my ParaFlinch nerf about jumping the gun on pokes we don't have yet is that Jirachi MAY (with a capital MAY) be Steel/Fairy now. And he's right, at least on the typing front.

Just because we have no indication of it either way. I wouldn't be surprised if the typing stayed the same, and I wouldn't be surprised if it changed. If it IS the same, then yeah, Jirachi's nerfed to hell. But if not, a Steel/Fairy that doesn't take up a Mega Stone and has an actual offensive presence? Yikes.

 

[Burningdragon91]

Well i was running a paraflinch team in b/w. With the immunity from electric, i see myself using sticky web for flinching those pokes. But ill have to see if any good pokes get sticky web.

 

[JayHankEdLyon]

Well i was running a paraflinch team in b/w. With the immunity from electric, i see myself using sticky web for flinching those pokes. But ill have to see if any good pokes get sticky web.

First off, that's terrible and you should feel bad. ParaFlinch is the lowest of low.

Second off, even if you slow folks down, the lack of paralysis means it's still far less likely to nullify an Electric pokemon than pure ParaFlinch. Moreover, thanks to Defog being awesome now, and Sticky Web's poor distribution (and the fact that, yeah, if Sticky Web's popular BOTH SIDES will be using it and it's essentially moot), I wouldn't worry too much.

Your precious "strategy" has taken a serious hit and thank heavens for that. Now actual skill can be used again, woohoo!

 

[blizzarddd]

First off, that's terrible and you should feel bad. ParaFlinch is the lowest of low.

Second off, even if you slow folks down, the lack of paralysis means it's still far less likely to nullify an Electric pokemon than pure ParaFlinch. Moreover, thanks to Defog being awesome now, and Sticky Web's poor distribution (and the fact that, yeah, if Sticky Web's popular BOTH SIDES will be using it and it's essentially moot), I wouldn't worry too much.

Your precious "strategy" has taken a serious hit and thank heavens for that. Now actual skill can be used again, woohoo!

someone has lost many a match because of paraflinch

jeeze, tell us how you really feel

 

[JayHankEdLyon]

someone has lost many a match because of paraflinch

jeeze, tell us how you really feel

Actually, given I play UU and Togekiss can be countered by my Gligar/Raikou combo, not really. I just think it's a horrible way to play that steals the fun from one side of the equation.

Like evasion, it turns the game into rigged coin flips. And that just sucks.

But that's the last I'll say about it here, this isn't a thread for complaining about ParaFlinch.

 

[Burningdragon91]

Yea better ban everything with luck like crit , sleep , para , multihits, confusion.

Lets all use rattatas and with only tackle. Thats the only fair battle :)

Back to topic , I think with sticky web and the new megakanga paraflinch it wont hurt me too hard ;)

 

[ShravanP]

Reminder to please keep the discussion on topic -- about indirect subtle nerfs to old Pokemon.

That said...

Skarm doesn't resist ghost or dark moves now.

252 Atk Adamant CB Tyranitar Crunch vs 252 HP, 252 Def Impish Skarmory: 37.72 - 44.31%. 55.98 - 66.46% at -1 Def. Note that many Skarms don't actually maximize Def. Skarm can't really Roost stall this and whirlwind would drop him down to 20% HP

LO Gengar does along the lines of 30.56 - 36.26% to max SpD heatran with shadow ball, then finish it with a 60.62 - 72.02% focus blast. Such a heatran has no Speed EVs~.

That same shadow ball also does 59.01 - 69.47% to 252 HP, 252 Atk Scizor. It's 31.1 - 36.91% coming from Sash Alakazam. These are all decent chunks that become more and more important later in the game when everything has been chipped at already, and nullifies certain switch ins.

This is exactly the kind of thing that will make a significant impact on the way a Pokemon is played. Now with these numbers, Scizor is no longer an option to sponge shadow balls from Gengar, for example (not that it was the safest strat with HP fire in the wings, but still). I'll add this to the OP.

 

[GeneralMLD]

I think Salamence has it pretty hard right now. The nerf to all dragons with the fairies was bad enough for it but, it doesn't really seem to have a way of dealing with fairies apart from Iron Tail. (which it wont even get until December) We might see Salamence go to low OU/BL this gen.

Seems like the only dragon that can safely combat fairies is a Garchomp with its base speed and Iron head capability

 

[Sir_Lu]

I actually think Hydreigon can still be used effectively. With a versatile moveset including Flash Cannon/Flamethrower/U-Turn, I feel although it can play around and lure out Fairies quite well.

 

[TwoBit]

The spore nerf may make Normal type statusers more common, without altering the movepools of grass types. Glare for instance is pretty much thunder wave that works on everything aside from ghost types. Distribution is a total letdown, though. Yawn also is now the most reliable sleep-inducing move.

 

[DDRMaster]

Disregarding the special attacks nerf, the existance of Azumarill will single-handedly force the Lati twins to run BoltBeam over Dragon Pulse+HP Fire or Dragon Pulse+Surf, especially on CM sets.
This means they're going to have a much harder time against Mamoswine, Ferrothorn, Tyranitar and pretty much anything that can take a +1 non-STAB Thunderbolt/Ice and KO back.

There's really no point in running BoltBeam on them when you can just run Dragon Pulse (or Draco Meteor) and Thunderbolt and end up with nearly the same coverage as BoltBeam. I think Dragon+Electric is only resisted by Ferrothorn, Whimsicott, Dedenne, Magnezone, and Steelix and all but Dedenne are hit SE by HP Fire. Mamo and Tyranitar are at least hit neutrally by Dragon attacks, so they won't take that much less damage with the lack of Surf.

Of course, finding a place for Thunderbolt gives them huge 4MSS, since you now have 8 moves competing for a slot (though things like CM and DM probably won't be seen together). People are just going to have to figure out which Pokemon out of Ferrothorn, Scizor, Tyranitar, Blissey/Chansey, Magnezone, and Heatran the rest of their team can deal with.

 

[sidakarya]

I actually think Hydreigon can still be used effectively. With a versatile moveset including Flash Cannon/Flamethrower/U-Turn, I feel although it can play around and lure out Fairies quite well.

Azumarill is still neutral to it though.

Actually Hydreigon looks just as limited as Salamence, now that both have three fairies to worry about, none of which can be covered with just one move. Electric covers Azumarill and Togekiss but not Sylveon, Steel can't cover Azumarill, etc. Still powerful, but now they can't be a one-man army anymore.

EDIT: Does Hydreigon learn any Poison moves this time? since that could cover all three at once. It's amazing, that a once uncounterable death machine has to resort to Poison of all things for coverage...

 

[PKMN1]

Actually Hydreigon looks just as limited as Salamence, now that both have three fairies to worry about, none of which can be covered with just one move. Electric covers Azumarill and Togekiss but not Sylveon, Steel can't cover Azumarill, etc. Still powerful, but now they can't be a one-man army anymore.[/quote]

Don't you mean one-MON army?

 

[ROFLz]

Electric types being immune to paralysis is pretty important. Because of this, I think we will see an increase in volt switch using and supporting electric types, since they can wall thunder wave but aren't as bothered by the reduced bp of hidden power as sweeper oriented electrics. Also grass types that can beat other grass types, like nasty plot celebi, will be more popular since they can take sleep powders. Breloom is going to hate all that D:

Heatran is a big winner this gen, rain got nerfed and it can beat fairies now, flash cannon heatran is probably going to be a thing.

The hidden power nerf means lots of stuff like grass types, electric types, and dragon types that rely on it will struggle. The lati twins really get hurt by both fairies and hidden power's nerf, so they will be significantly worse imo. Dragons like noivern and hydreigon, with wider movepools, might see more usage, though they are also sure to have issues with fairies.

Because of the hidden power nerf affecting grass and electric types, bulky water types might thrive in this meta, especially paired with dragon / fairy / steel types. I dunno though since both grass / electrics also benefited.

 

[Mysteriosum]

As I understand it, Hidden Power being "nerfed" to 60 power will hurt a lot of mons that relied on that little extra damage for coverage.

I love this change, as I play a lot of local casual/competitive and the difference between 60 and 70 is nothing compared to never ever having a decent hidden power despite hundreds of hours of breeding v_v

I would also like to know some numbers pertaining to the power changes of the basic elemental moves - hydro pump, fire blast, flamethrower, thunderbolt, etc. It seems like this subtle nerf could be important...

 

[The LoudWendle]

With sticky web being so poorly distributed, i think smeargle will get more of a use to at least test out its mechanics and viability

 

[sidakarya]

I would also like to know some numbers pertaining to the power changes of the basic elemental moves - hydro pump, fire blast, flamethrower, thunderbolt, etc. It seems like this subtle nerf could be important...

For one it means that special coverage moves are weaker, especially on mixed sweepers like Hydreigon and Mixmence.

 

[Gerard]

Knock Off change, basically every mon that gets (and there are A LOT) it has a Dark 100 BP move that removes the target's item, this outdamages Crunch (by 2.5 dmg) in 2 attacks and it's gonna be a great option against everything that complained not having anything to hit ghosts with, though Megastones do nerf it a bit though it will be interesting to see how that works (if it always gets the boost then it would be pretty good still)

 

[stage7_4]

Knock Off change, basically every mon that gets (and there are A LOT) it has a Dark 100 BP move that removes the target's item, this outdamages Crunch (by 2.5 dmg) in 2 attacks and it's gonna be a great option against everything that complained not having anything to hit ghosts with, though Megastones do nerf it a bit though it will be interesting to see how that works (if it always gets the boost then it would be pretty good still)

This was disproved. Knock off had a base power increase, but doesn't double if the foe is holding an item. See here: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/knock-off.3490405/

 

[Lord Jesseus]

Actually, the guy who "disproved" that later realised he'd made a mistake. It's not double, but it's probably 50% (and Gerard's post seems to be based on that).

 

[Gerard]

This was disproved. Knock off had a base power increase, but doesn't double if the foe is holding an item. See here: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/knock-off.3490405/

See here:
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/pokémon-battle-mechanics-research.3489239/page-24#post-4908468

 

[Raikaria]

I think Salamence has it pretty hard right now. The nerf to all dragons with the fairies was bad enough for it but, it doesn't really seem to have a way of dealing with fairies apart from Iron Tail. (which it wont even get until December) We might see Salamence go to low OU/BL this gen.

Salamence has one of the highest attack stats of any dragon-type, and a pretty acceptable speed. It may only deal 55% to Azurmaill with +1 Earthquake, but Mence is a best as a stall breaker anyway, it puts huge dents into something, switches out, and comes back in again later. Azumarill will never HIT Mence.

Honestly; Lati@s is in far more trouble than Mence. They are special attackers, not physical or mixed, and more fairies have massive Sp.Def. Salamence can Earthquake Fairies and do huge damage to most of them; Lati@s can.... uh... Hidden Power Steel?

In fact, Lati@s is pretty crippled this generation:

- Fairies completely destroy them; as mentioned above
- Special moves got nerfed in general. Hidden Power; their main coverage, is now 60 BP
- Dark and Ghost types; and Dark/Ghost attacks; are likly to be more common due to Steels no longer resisting them. In fact, Ghost is arguably one of the best 'Spam-attack' types there are now, with only Dark resisting them, and Normal being immune.
- Assault Vest; offensive pokemon may carry this and take a LOT less damage switching into things like Draco Meteor.

Latias was almost UU in Gen 5, and it seems certain it'll fall to UU this generaton. Latios may stay OU, but it'll be a lot weaker.

About the only thing going for the Latis is the Crit nerf, which makes Bulky CM a bit better.

--Manaphy- was mentioning in response to my ParaFlinch nerf about jumping the gun on pokes we don't have yet is that Jirachi MAY (with a capital MAY) be Steel/Fairy now. And he's right, at least on the typing front.

Just because we have no indication of it either way. I wouldn't be surprised if the typing stayed the same, and I wouldn't be surprised if it changed. If it IS the same, then yeah, Jirachi's nerfed to hell. But if not, a Steel/Fairy that doesn't take up a Mega Stone and has an actual offensive presence? Yikes.

Jirachi was very rarely an offensive threat, it was an annoyer, and Klefki arguably does that better with Prankster.

Especially with Electric Types no longer being Paralyzed. SubTorment Klefki with Swagger or Confuse Ray is a lot more of an annoyer than Paraflinch Jirachi ever was.

 

[JayHankEdLyon]

Jirachi was very rarely an offensive threat, it was an annoyer, and Klefki arguably does that better with Prankster.

Especially with Electric Types no longer being Paralyzed. SubTorment Klefki with Swagger or Confuse Ray is a lot more of an annoyer than Paraflinch Jirachi ever was.

All 100 stats plus Calm Mind plus a ton of offensive moves = way more offensive than Klefki. A steel/fairy that's CAPABLE of offensive pressure is quite something.

 

[stage7_4]

See here:
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/pokémon-battle-mechanics-research.3489239/page-24#post-4908468

Huh. Guess I've got brain problems!

 

[TMaster23]

Just a personal opinion, but I believe that the dragon to suffer the most is Hydreigon purely because Fairy-Types, specifically Slyveon, exist.

Hydreigon is 4X weak to Fairy moves, a fact that Sylveon can exploit using its decent 110 base SpA.

The only notable move Hydreigon has that can put a dent in Sylveon is a physical EQ, which has little power behind Hydreigon. All Fairy-Types are immune to its Draco Meteor (which got nerfed) and resist Fire Blast and Superpower, the only other notable moves on Hydreigon.

Out of all Dragons that suffer from the existence of Fairies, I think Hydreigon has it the worst.