Marshadow Discussion

[jdcomix]

Everybody seems to believe at this point, with good reason, that Necrozma is the third cover legend. But now that I think about it, wasn't the trademark for Marshadow revealed at the same time as the Solgaleo and Lunala trademarks? Wouldn't they only trademark the names of cover legends? So doesn't that mean Marshadow's the third cover legend? Correct me if I'm wrong about this.

Necrozma comes before Marshadow in the dex and doesn't have Mythical Pokemon stats

 

[chuckeroo777]

Am I the only one who finds it odd that spectral thief is 90 base power? Technician is its only ability, so why not make it 60 power?

 

[viol and bass]

Marshadow is event exclusive and can't be obtained ingame. Its flavor text shows no connection to Solgaleo and Lunala at all, unlike Necrozma, which is on the same level of psuedo-Ultra-Beat-ness as they are. It also shares the Psychic type with them.

Ah, fair enough.

 

[benjamin4321]

Whether or not this thing is ubers, it will still see some uber play. Basically beats any version of SD arceus (outspeeds, immune to extreme speed, Ohkos with close combat or in the case of non normal arceus steals the swords dance boost then smacks with stab spectral thief.

 

[6ft Torbjorn]

Am I the only one who finds it odd that spectral thief is 90 base power? Technician is its only ability, so why not make it 60 power?

Technician's 1.5x multiplier works up to 60 power (obviously), so anything between 60-90 power would be irrelevant.
Also with the Statboost stealing effect, I guess it is what it is...

JoycapJoshST How about actually doing calcs with a boosting item since that's what Marshmellow-kun's gonna hold the majority of the time.

252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 142-168 (42.5 - 50.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Skarmory: 185-218 (55.3 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Spectral vs. 248 HP / 96+ Def Mega Venusaur: 133-156 (36.6 - 42.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon: 175-207 (41.6 - 49.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

WITHOUT needing a boosting move, Marshadow already does heaps of damage to physical walls that they can't switch in safely. And this is JUST with Life Orb and not accounting for extra Spikes or Stealth Rock damage; if it's holding a Choice Band (ala Terrakion), there's no way any frailer's gonna take more than a hit or two. Granted, you might have found a slight solution in Mega Venusuar, but that's not used nearly enough on most team archetypes outside of balance (stall prefers other megas like Sableye, offense prefers something faster like Lopunny or Charizard).

Yes, it's revenge killable especially by Scarf Keldeo and Mega Lops, but neither of them can switch in safely and unlike Terrakion its typing saves it from being sniped at -1 by random Ground-, Steel-, and Water-type attacks common on other revenge killers. Like Terrakion, Marshadow doesn't actually give many craps about coverage because CC annihilates most switch-ins while Spectral Thief is generally powerful enough. Unless you have huge scizor phobia screw fire coverage since Close Combat's hitting most neutral steels harder.

Overall it's almost like Mega Lucario in that its typing isn't easily exploitable, has accurate STABs which offer good coverage, doesn't need setup to blow teams off the earth, and its Speed and natural power is good enough to overwhelm most teams even with its share of revenge killers. If that doesn't at least ring a few warning bells I don't know what will.

Right. I just left the item off in the event of Acro' coverage.
Also - what about Will-O-Wisp/Intimidate use to counter this thing?
Plus, Mar's stat stucture i'd like to draw comparison to Pirroette Meloetta - a mon with very similar coverage.

 

[Wumgum]

I'm surprised that no one mentioned Toxapex as an answer for it yet since it seems to be a pretty decent one:

252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 66-78 (20.5 - 24.2%) -- possible 6HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Spectral Thief vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 99-118 (30.8 - 36.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 112-133 (34.8 - 41.4%) -- 60.3% chance to 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
0 SpA Life Orb Technician Marshadow Hidden Power Electric vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 114-135 (35.5 - 42%) -- 83.6% chance to 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery

 

[AccidentalGreed]

Also - what about Will-O-Wisp/Intimidate use to counter this thing?
Plus, Mar's stat stucture i'd like to draw comparison to Pirroette Meloetta - a mon with very similar coverage.

Okay, let's look at some possible usable Will-O-Wisp and Intimidate users, oras-wise since I don't recall any new Sun/Moon threats of notice that could use it besides Incineroar, Lunala, or Marshadow himself.

• Heatran: Outrun and demolished by CC, can't switch into anything
• Banette: Has improved Prankster Will-O-Wisp now but can't switch into ST and gets wrecked by Shadow Sneak
• Mega Charizard-X: defensive variants 2HKOed by CC, can't switch into any move, uncommon compared to Dragon Dance.
• Darkrai (since it might go down to OU): Speed ties games, CC = gg
• Gardevoir: Outrun and KO'd by ST
• Gengar: Outrun and KO'd by ST
• Infernape: Outrun and can't take any move
• Mew: SpD variants outrun and KO'd by ST
• Rotom-W: 2HKOed by both STABs, can't switch in
• Talonflame: wait what who the fuck is that
• Sableye: Takes prediction as ST 2HKOes both Mega and normal, but can otherwise Will-o-Wisp fine given non-pressure.

• Gyarados: Okay, you got me here. Can switch into CC and Mega Evolve to resist ST and SS. Given Marshadow's free slots it might get hit with the odd Will-o-Wisp.
• Landorus-t: LO HP Ice OHKOes if used, but otherwise switches in fine unless Will-o-Wisp. Better against Choice Band sets.
• Manectric: Checks after Close Combat defense drops, but is 2HKOed even after -1 by STABs and can't switch in safely.
• Mawile: Outsped, and either STAB will 2HKO after -1. Might get banned.
• Salamence: Possible mega instaban, regardless same case as Gyarados except it has Refresh for surprise burns. HP Ice'd.

For Will-o-Wisp, most of them can't outrun and get KO'd, and for those that can successfully do it (i.e. healthy Charizard-X that switched in after something died), you pretty see them a mile away and switch to the appropriate status absorber. If the Marshadow user also runs Tapu Fini (who also checks a good amount of threats I listed), good actual luck.

Intimidate users are more flexible but by ORAS standards only three of them are common and lack reliable recovery and are crippled by certain moveset choices.

Also @ Meloetta they're pretty similar except w/ Marshadow you get your OP stats no problemo while Meloetta has to waste a turn and a moveslot to get there w/inferior coverage.

 

[6ft Torbjorn]

Okay, let's look at some possible usable Will-O-Wisp and Intimidate users, oras-wise since I don't recall any new Sun/Moon threats of notice that could use it besides Incineroar, Lunala, or Marshadow himself.

• Heatran: Outrun and demolished by CC, can't switch into anything
• Banette: Has improved Prankster Will-O-Wisp now but can't switch into ST and gets wrecked by Shadow Sneak
• Mega Charizard-X: defensive variants 2HKOed by CC, can't switch into any move, uncommon compared to Dragon Dance.
• Darkrai (since it might go down to OU): Speed ties games, CC = gg
• Gardevoir: Outrun and KO'd by ST
• Gengar: Outrun and KO'd by ST
• Infernape: Outrun and can't take any move
• Mew: SpD variants outrun and KO'd by ST
• Rotom-W: 2HKOed by both STABs, can't switch in
• Talonflame: wait what who the fuck is that
• Sableye: Takes prediction as ST 2HKOes both Mega and normal, but can otherwise Will-o-Wisp fine given non-pressure.

• Gyarados: Okay, you got me here. Can switch into CC and Mega Evolve to resist ST and SS. Given Marshadow's free slots it might get hit with the odd Will-o-Wisp.
• Landorus-t: LO HP Ice OHKOes if used, but otherwise switches in fine unless Will-o-Wisp. Better against Choice Band sets.
• Manectric: Checks after Close Combat defense drops, but is 2HKOed even after -1 by STABs and can't switch in safely.
• Mawile: Outsped, and either STAB will 2HKO after -1. Might get banned.
• Salamence: Possible mega instaban, regardless same case as Gyarados except it has Refresh for surprise burns. HP Ice'd.

For Will-o-Wisp, most of them can't outrun and get KO'd, and for those that can successfully do it (i.e. healthy Charizard-X that switched in after something died), you pretty see them a mile away and switch to the appropriate status absorber. If the Marshadow user also runs Tapu Fini (who also checks a good amount of threats I listed), good actual luck.

Intimidate users are more flexible but by ORAS standards only three of them are common and lack reliable recovery and are crippled by certain moveset choices.

Also @ Meloetta they're pretty similar except w/ Marshadow you get your OP stats no problemo while Meloetta has to waste a turn and a moveslot to get there w/inferior coverage.

Right...
on the other side - what about Sticky Web?

 

[~Defiant~]

With such a strong offensive typing, with two moveslots allowing Fire Punch and Ice Punch right in (for Ferrothorn and the Landos, respectively), this mon can become an OU staple, handily and easily.

 

[Hourai]

Right...
on the other side - what about Sticky Web?

Its best user is Shuckle, which is Taunt bait if its Mental Herb is knocked off

 

[Machi]

Yeah I like the Mons you said. But at the same time Game Freak made most of the Mon to slow. For example the starters the highest speed stat has the Grass Type Starter and 70 base speed for that is pretty underwhelming. The Tapus do have good stats but they're slow too except Tapu Koko.

The metagame will be different that is all there is too it, in so much that obviously bulky offense or balance and even stall have found a boon in all this. Offense does have its boost as well but its not unavoidable that the metagame will likely change when it comes to speed tiers or the types of playstyles that work.

The problem with this mon is obviously while being one of the most adorable things just wrecks all play styles with such freakish stats and movepool.

 

[6ft Torbjorn]

Its best user is Shuckle, which is Taunt bait if its Mental Herb is knocked off

Or Sash Gauvantula.
With that - I take it VoltTurn cores haven't changed much? At least by the looks of it

 

[Vengeance417]

With such a strong offensive typing, with two moveslots allowing Fire Punch and Ice Punch right in (for Ferrothorn and the Landos, respectively), this mon can become an OU staple, handily and easily.

Honestly, Technician HP Ice is a much better option over Ice Punch, as it allows Marshadow to not only damage defensive Lando-Ts and Garchomps more but also avoid Rocky Helmet and Rough Skin (vs Chomp).

Calcs

-1 252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 218-260 (57 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 322-385 (84.2 - 100.7%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

40 SpA Life Orb Technician Marshadow Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 8 SpD Landorus-T: 369-437 (100 - 119.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Ice Punch vs. 240 HP / 176+ Def Garchomp: 333-395 (79.8 - 94.7%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

40 SpA Life Orb Technician Marshadow Hidden Power Ice vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 369-437 (88.4 - 104.7%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Might as well avoid any extra and unnecessary residual damage, if you ask me.

 

[Pignot]

I think Scarfed Tapu Lele could be a decent check, but only by switching into a predicted Close Combat which is quad resisted or just coming in for a revenge kill. Tapu Lele's Psychic Surge will block Shadow Sneak and Tapu Lele can then let off a monstrous Psychic, or Moonblast if you think a Dark type is switching in. Tapu Lele's defense isn't very good so it's dropping to a Spectral Thief if predicted wrong. But if switched in on a Close Combat, it takes max 32% (which is a lot for a x4 resist but it'll do).

 

[Edu]

10/10 Best Pokemon this Gen

Loved this little monster!

 

[ChaosNemesis]

Is it confirmed that we have to wait for an event to play this broken cute little mon? (ie: not in the game)

 

[Punchshroom]

They said Silvally is meant to slay Ultra Beasts, while replicating Arceus's might...

...and little Marshadow here Spectral Thiefs those Beast Boosts away, while giving EKiller the business like it's not even Tuesday.

Why is the pixie for this game so fuking busted?!?

Might not be able to take the stat boosts. The stat thief move is Ghost type, so Ekiller will be immune to it.

No you don't take EKiller's stat boosts; you beat the living daylights out of it:

252 Atk Fist Plate Marshadow Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 390-462 (102 - 120.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

[Rarycaris]

They said Silvally is meant to slay Ultra Beasts, while replicating Arceus's might...

...and little Marshadow here Spectral Thiefs those Beast Boosts away, while giving EKiller the business like it's not even Tuesday.

Why is the pixie for this game so fuking busted?!?

Might not be able to take the stat boosts. The stat thief move is Ghost type, so Ekiller will be immune to it.

 

[phoenixflame95]

Technician's 1.5x multiplier works up to 60 power (obviously), so anything between 60-90 power would be irrelevant.
Also with the Statboost stealing effect, I guess it is what it is...

No, I think what he meant was that since Marshadow's only ability is Technician and Spectral Thief is its signature move, why did they make Spectral Thief 90 base power when it could have been 60 base power, which would be boosted to 90 by Technician, thereby having the same effect?

Well in that case, maybe being 90 just opens up more options in the future if it doesn't become exclusive? And (I guess?) it's not locked like Dark Void is, so Smeargle could use it too? Otherwise, there isn't much difference.

 

[Siggu]

Might not be able to take the stat boosts. The stat thief move is Ghost type, so Ekiller will be immune to it.

That's why he said "while". Steals the boosts of some Arceus formes, while it makes EKiller's life much more difficult.

 

[Pikachu315111]

Ghost/Fighting? Well I get the Ghost but wouldn't have expected the Fighting. But it has the stats to make it work so not complaining: high Attack and Speed, decent bulk, and an alright Special Attack incase it may want a Special back-up for whatever reason. Interesting it gets Technician, it may not always want to go for the most powerful move (it it doesn't go above the Power a weaker move of that type after the 1.5x boost).

I would say Spectral Thief would be its Ghost STAB but with Technician it also has Shadow Sneak and Shadow Punch to consider. Fighting STAB it doesn't, it's Close Combat (it also has Drain Punch, though I guess you can also have it as a utility; though I'm surprised it doesn't get Power-up Punch). Other Physical moves are all elemental punches (you sure this thing wasn't suppose to get Iron Fist?), Pursuit/Sucker Punch, Acrobatics, Stone Edge/Rock Slide, and Poison Jab. Doesn't look there's much in Special aside from STAB replacements (which is odd, it learns the elemental punches but not the basic TMs of those types?) so onto utilities. Laser Focus, Will-O-Wisp... you know I think Marshadow is a-okay with just being an all Physical fighter.

Give it the Physical moves of your choice and let it loose!

Huh? Gets an exclusive Z-Move? Well I guess I'll go over that when I go over Z-Movess.

 

[MegaCharizard25]

I would say Spectral Thief would be its Ghost STAB but with Technician it also has Shadow Sneak and Shadow Punch to consider.

I don't see anyone ever considering running shadow punch (90 BP) when it has has a 90 BP signature move that has an additional effect of stealing the opponents stat boosts.

 

[EnbyChu]

I don't see anyone ever considering running shadow punch (90 BP) when it has has a 90 BP STAB priority and another 90 BP signature move that has an additional effect of stealing the opponents stat boosts.

Shadow Sneak only goes to base 60 power with Technician.

 

[Siggu]

Shadow Sneak only goes to base 60 power with Technician.

The point is that a Technician-boosted Shadow Punch "only" has the same Base Power as Spectral Thief, so there's no point in running it.

 

[MegaCharizard25]

Shadow Sneak only goes to base 60 power with Technician.

My bad. I thought shadow sneak had 60 BP before technician.