Does that mean the results will be in Sunday? Or maybe phrased a little differently, for those of us who are relatively new to Smogon, when should we expect to actually see the bans go into effect, given that bans are voted for?
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XY Suspect Testing Round 1 np: Michael Jackson - (extreme)Speed Demon (READ POST #1278)
- Thread starter Aldaron
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haunter
Banned deucer.
It means that in barely more than 24 hours the voting thread will be locked. As soon as we get to count the votes, we'll announce the results. As I have said previously, everything will be settled within the beginning of next week.
Deoxys for BAN!
It can kill so many Pokémon... it's one of best Sweepers at all. I used to play it in team as well and I must admit it is not only for set-up.
The best is to have attack on it and it can destroy so much Pokémon, like Excadrill (OHKO), Manectric Mega (OHKO), Venusaur Mega (OHKO), probably Ferrothorn (OHKO)...
SO powerful and what is worse? SOOOO FAST!
It can kill so many Pokémon... it's one of best Sweepers at all. I used to play it in team as well and I must admit it is not only for set-up.
The best is to have attack on it and it can destroy so much Pokémon, like Excadrill (OHKO), Manectric Mega (OHKO), Venusaur Mega (OHKO), probably Ferrothorn (OHKO)...
SO powerful and what is worse? SOOOO FAST!
fire punch is literally on deoxys' analysis
I think you guys are all missing the point. What makes Deoxys-S so good is it's ability to clean up teams with ease once they have been worn down. It gets nice coverage with Fire Punch Superpower Ice Beam and Psycho Boost that let it muscle past the remnants of a team while continuing to outspeed all of it regardless of scarves. The only way to really stop it is priority but that should be removed before attempting a clean anyway.
perplexingpool
Banned deucer.
Offensive Deo-S usually runs Life Orb.
252 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-S Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Venusaur: 408-484 (112 - 132.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
But with only base 95 offenses it still isn't THAT strong. I'm obviously not saying it's bad (it is a phenominal revenge killer), but it certainly isn't OP. It's similar to Talonflame in a way; FAST and relatively strong to get its job done, but not overpowered or ban-worthy.
You haven't taken Life Orb into account.
252+ Atk Life Orb Deoxys-S Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ferrothorn: 302-359 (85.7 - 101.9%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
Furthermore, Deo-S shouldn't really be used as a sweeper or even as a wallbreaker. It's more of a weaker, less efficient hybrid of the two combined with a late-game cleaner. It a very middle-ground Pokemon.
Yeah, I'm an idiot. Somehow the idea of items eclipsed me. Of course, Ferrothorn can be physically defensive, but still. I'll stop arguing now.
Why are people still campaigning? There's only a couple people left and I don't know a single person who voted to ban Deoxys. Its power is underwhelming, even if it does get some surprisingly useful KO's. It's speed is hardly noticeable with all the priority running around. It doesn't over centralize the metagame, as most decent bulky attackers can deal with it. I understand the need for a suspect test (and acknowledge that there are decent pro-ban arguments), but really this thing has done nothing to require banning.
I'm honestly have no idea why it was suspect tested in the first place, but I do feel that it's a little underrated (well, the LO set, at least. The Hazard Lead is very outdated)
i personally don't think it's broken, but you're underselling it a lot. it's still very good, and possibly worth looking at again in the future (assuming it isn't banned this time around)
Its incredibly good, but broken? Not right now at least
Well, I'm not exactly a fan of that argument. I mean I'm not exactly sure but if I recall Deoxys-N was barely in the top 100, usage wise, before he got banned. Obviously not being used alot didn't stop Deoxys-N from being broken.
And what would have happened if Deoxys-N was broken, but was not banned as quickly as it was? People would resort to using it in order to win, and it would rise in usage. This is a poor example you've given, particularly when something is banned quickly within a meta still in its infancy.
I don't presume to know what UU is like, or what the reasons were for banning Gothitelle, and how that relates to its usage. That being said, it could suffer from the same issue I presented with Deoxys-N. If a meta has relatively stabilized and has had a sufficient amount of time, any problematic suspects will inevitably make their way up the standings as people resort to using them to win unless they're preemptively taken care of.
Personally I don't agree with the idea that statistics should be ignored, especially when we base our tiers around the very idea of usage. The premise is that OU Pokemon will be OU because if they are better than average, players will naturally gravitate towards them as they are effective and competitive options, and they will rise in usage. Broken Pokemon are just an exaggeration of this very idea, so it makes sense that with enough given time, this will happen with them too. Obviously this shouldn't be the only consideration, or even the most important, but I think it is valid information to take note of.
If anything, something like Deoxys-S being #69 in usage implies it has yet to definitively prove whether or not its worthy of a suspect ban. It doesn't mean it doesn't deserve a ban, but what I think it does mean is it needs more time on the ladder for people to make a proper decision.
They shouldn't be ignored, but being lower on usage does not make you any less broken. The problem with usage is that is has only a correlation with being powerful. Being powerful does not cause something to be used a ton, and being weak does not stop it from being used. Stupid people will not always use what is best, and a lot of the time, the top of the ladder looks so different from the lower end it is crazy. So what I am saying is, its usage should not be completely over looked, but the usage should not dismiss it from being able to be banned.
Something else people need to realize when discussing the usage is the fact that you are only aloud 1 form of a pokemon on a team. If deoxys-d didnt exist deoxys-s might have usage comparable to lucario and genesect. I will say that it probably won't go uber but it's something to keep in mind.
I'm not a fan of your argument personally. While it's true that something being used less doesn't make it any less broken - it can be best to let the metagame stabilize.
I don't even like the idea of quick bans to be honest. I'd be perfectly fine with letting Mega Gengar and Mega Kanghaskan dominate the OU tier for the first 4-6 months only to let them be banned afterwards.
The mechanics of this gen have changed drastically compared to our previous installments. We have AV, weakness policy, the mega evolutions. OU practically took a step in the Uber direction. The amount of sheer power in OU now results in the destruction of dedicated walls. If a wall doesn't resist the stab attack of the pokemon it's meant to counter, good luck walling that Mega-Evolution (Looking at M-Pinsir, and M-Lucario).
Even Mega Absol 2HKOs every defensive pokemon in the game with Knock Off at +2. And that's counting the fact that Knock Off does less damage after the first attack. This meta is absurdly powerful, and I wish they would let it stabilize more before banning everything. I would understand more if we had some huge tournaments coming up with big pot bonuses. But maybe we do - I honestly don't know. Other than that, I'd like to play the patience game and let it settle. (For crying out loud, we have a 180BP priority attack coming off of 351 speed. This meta is insane!)
If Deoxys-Speed is on the chopping block, why isn't it an S rank pokemon? While A+ rank is still very good, wouldn't the other S rank pokemon be closer to broken then Deoxys-Speed? I could be completely wrong but it just seems weird to me.
Things don't have to be S rank to be broken or ban-worthy. I know this is a bad example, but observe Double Team and Moody for a moment. They wouldn't be like S-Tier moves or abilities, but are banned because of how luck based they are. Things can be unhealthy for the metagame without being "S-Tier".
That being said, obviously you can be S-Tier without being unhealthy or breaking the meta. Things are S-Tier typically because they break significant walls, or because they wall other opposing high tier threats. Things can be S-Tier simply because they fit into a role well and because they work.
S-Tier =/= Broken or ban-worthy
That being said, obviously you can be S-Tier without being unhealthy or breaking the meta. Things are S-Tier typically because they break significant walls, or because they wall other opposing high tier threats. Things can be S-Tier simply because they fit into a role well and because they work.
S-Tier =/= Broken or ban-worthy
Rotosect
Banned deucer.
Yes, they have to. It's in the very definition of S-rank:
Moody (and obviously DT/Minimize) was banned before the viability thread was made and that's why stuff like Bibarel was never S-rank.
No they don't. The underlined sentence is more of a general description of S rank than anything. The viability ranking thread has nothing to do with which Pokemon are suspected.
Case in point: Deoxys-S. It is currently A+ rank and yet it is (obviously) being suspected. There is absolutely nothing that says the S rank in the viability ranking thread is at all a guideline for being suspect tested.
haunter
Banned deucer.
It's been stated several times that usage statistics are irrelevant when it comes to deciding potential suspects. When Deoxys-D was suspect tested in Gen V, it was #39 in usage on the standard OU ladder, yet it was voted Uber. It doesn't really matter how much usage a given Pokémon gets, what matters is that, in the hands of a competent player, that Pokémon has the potential to break the metagame. This is ignoring the fact that PS ladder is inflated with people who barely know what they're doing. Arguments based on usage statistics are irrelevant, period.
Oh and, Magnemite is correct, that underlined sentence is just a general statement. We can and will suspect test even Pokémon that are ranked A and below if we feel they have the potential to break the game.
Oh and, Magnemite is correct, that underlined sentence is just a general statement. We can and will suspect test even Pokémon that are ranked A and below if we feel they have the potential to break the game.
Just for clarification, so you're basically saying that suspect tests are simply based on the top members' "feelings"?
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