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XY Suspect Testing Round 1 np: Michael Jackson - (extreme)Speed Demon (READ POST #1278)
- Thread starter Aldaron
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Are you implying that making a Genesect without those moves shiny is stupid? Because, you know, it kinda isn't. What's the drawback of clicking that little circle next to shiny when you pick Genesect?
I really hope I'm misreading you here.
Because Shiny Genesect is event only? If lowering your Defense when using Shift Gear to bluff a Physical set when you are in fact special is a thing, then I'm just being stupid saying what I said.
Even then, however, there are some flaws in certain arguments supporting Gene's ban:
-Let's be honest, 99% of the times when using GeneTrio, Gene is using U-turn itself, due it luring (BAN ME PLEASE) so easily. I get that. But since that is a obvious as a move as it can be, you won't be switching in Heatran to take the obvious U-turn and instead will be using something else to take it (if you lack 2+ resistances to a type on a more defensive team, then I'm not sure what's going on there). From there, you can easily deduce what set it is by...using a damage calculator. Granted, switching into something with good coverage like Gene might be hard at times, but I'm sure there are more counters then just Heatran (Aegislash comes to mind and he can even tank an EQ from duggy fairly easily). Just to tired to remember most of them at the moment.
-Rock Polish/Shift Gear are end-game sweepers and, as such, won't see much play early/mid-game unless you are trying to get a surprise kill with bluffing physical with Shift Gear while running special (which can easily be scouted for by using Protect or its variants on mons it tries to force out (Gliscor/Chestnaught for example)). Unless you really, really, REALLY think having only 2 slots for coverage isn't a big deal on an end-game sweeper, you won't have U-turn, which the opponent will notice by the lack of Gene appearances in the match.
-Insert general frailty issues here. Gene really isn't EV'd to last at all, especially with the defense/sp defense lowering natures used with it. If it has to start switching in on things in can threaten, it will likely be hit or statused and worn down, so either smart switching or sacs are needed to get the thing in without getting it closer
I really don't understand why people keep saying "just use heatran" to counter genesect. Isn't the whole point of banning not about things being broken, but about things over centralizing the meta game? Having to run heatran to be legitimately competitive restricts team building a lot. Obviously he's a great poke on his own anyways, so you don't notice it as much as you would otherwise, but there really isn't another mon that genesect can literally not touch. Take heatran away and expert belt gene runs through OU.
The point is, Heatran is just a "fool" counter, and even without it Genesect can be handled moderately well, it was not like every one brought Jellicient for Keldeo in last gen.
What I'm trying to say is, that seems to be the go to argument for people who don't want him banned and it's a terrible one.
Also keldeo/jellicent isn't really relevant because even if jellicent stops keldeo cold there are other things that walled it, water/fighting can't touch genesects coverage. If you can name even two things aside from heatran that wall EB gene than yeah, he's fine in OU. And I'm not even trying to be an ass, I'm honestly just curious. I don't really care if he gets banned or not because I usually run heatran anyways, I just think he should be.
Well, many pages ago I have shown that, mainly due to lack of STAB, the power of Genesect is very underwhelming unless it uses the right move, so there are more reliable switch-ins available than the brain-proof Heatran, depending on your current poke in the field. And btw, the choice of predicting U-turn still exists, despite a bit risky.
Right but your talking about the scarf variant, and I'm talking about EB. There really isn't anything to predict, and tbh it punishes you for trying. Again, not trying to be a jerk or anything, I just want to know at least one or two other pokes that can wall EB Genesect. As far as I'm aware, Heatran is the only thing that can aside from mega-venusaur, which would force you to use the mega slot. If I'm right, he really needs to be banned. If I'm wrong then he should stay.
Also since you brought up Keldeo before, just look at their Gen 5 checks/counters. Celebi/amoongus vs giratina/arceus? And that's not because they were Uber/OU, that's why. His coverage is just too good for OU imo and he is way too versatile.
Why are we still arguing? The vote's up and I'm pretty sure most people either have already voted, or know what they will vote.
I'm bored, so I will however say a few things about this. The "unless" is the most important word. Since Genesect often has the right move, its power is rarely underwhelming. And there's no risk in predicting the U-Turn, it's a guarantee that whichever pokemon you send out will be minorly damaged, and up against it's check (assuming its still alive). There's no consistent way to deal with that
Well, Rotom-H is the truest counter to Genesect though. Just a tiny nitpick tbh.
yall niggs gettin wannabtrolld
Well, its either Hasty or Naive anyways, you're going to lose bulk regardless. If you aren't trying to switch it into Outrages I don't see the problem with going Hasty on Scarf or EBelt and getting into people's heads.
The problem with this is that at this point Heatran is doing nothing to actually stop Gene. If I'm forcing your Latios out with U-Turn, you sending out Aegislash does nothing to stop me from U-Turning and sending out my check/counter to Aegislash or what have you. The other thing is that your Heatran can't switch in to Genesect without risking the U-Turn. What exactly is stopping Genesect from going nuts on your team if you can't switch your counter to it in? By definition, a counter that can't, or in this case won't, switch in isn't a counter.
You're comparing two completely different threats, and if keldeo had a STAB switch-out attack like Genesect does, you bet your ass you would have seen more Jellicent.
haunter
Banned deucer.
Just an alert: over 100 of the 146 qualified players have already casted their vote. If you qualified for voting but haven't voted yet, then hurry up or you might not get the chance to vote. If you're getting the "You have insufficient privileges to reply here" message, then PM me.
The reason the Latios in this situation switched out at all, is due the threat of Scarf, correct? The whole point of Aegislash or anything that can take on Gene taking a U-turn is to remove doubt on what set it is. If it was a CB set, then great! Next time, unless it gets a Attack Download boost to KO with Extremespeed, you can just use a LO Surf/HP Fire to take it out next time.
The whole reason Gene is supposedly "unstoppable" is due it's unpredictability, unlike Mluke, who uses this only partially in conjuction with its ability to bulldoze through a team (other can of worms tho, ban this). If you take that away...pretty sure it won't be the almighty Terminator anymore. In addition, treating as if Heatran is the only foolproof Gene counter while others exist isn't helping when the main argument is "Gene's only counter Heatran gets trapped ridiculously easy by Duggy!" Rotom-H, Aegislash, MVenesaur and more can definitely hold their own against Genesect and allow you to scout it's set by the power of it's U-turn. It's just that most, if not all of these also help check/counter MLuke and were EV'd as such to deal with it and not Gene (for example, Specially Defensive Venesaur handles most of Special Genesect moves due Thick Fat/Resistances, but gets worn easily by U-turn from Physical Oriented variants. It needed to be Specially Defensive, however, to take on Special Mluke more easily. With Mluke to be banned soon, MVenesaur can change to Physically Defensive and handle Genesect and its friends far more easily).
Despite all of the rage of M-Lucario's cheapness. I honestly don't think it's ban worthy.
It has counters like Defensive Zapdos, Defensive Gyarados, and Aegislash. It's physical and special set can be handled by different pokemon, and it's easily revenge killed.
I just feel there many overpowered pokemon in this metagame. CB Talonflame can revenge kill most pokemon in the meta at 75%-100%HP. Mega Heracross, Mega Medicham, and Mega Pinsir all fulfill similar roles to Mega-Lucario. Though not being quite as fast. However, Mega Pinsir is extremely threating and Return has no immunities when its flying type.
I just think that people are hopping on the "Let's ban Mega-Lucario bandwagon." without even thinking anymore. I can understand his cheapness, but he should be evaluated in a meta that's extremely overpowered as is. I certainly don't think he's ban worthy.
It has counters like Defensive Zapdos, Defensive Gyarados, and Aegislash. It's physical and special set can be handled by different pokemon, and it's easily revenge killed.
I just feel there many overpowered pokemon in this metagame. CB Talonflame can revenge kill most pokemon in the meta at 75%-100%HP. Mega Heracross, Mega Medicham, and Mega Pinsir all fulfill similar roles to Mega-Lucario. Though not being quite as fast. However, Mega Pinsir is extremely threating and Return has no immunities when its flying type.
I just think that people are hopping on the "Let's ban Mega-Lucario bandwagon." without even thinking anymore. I can understand his cheapness, but he should be evaluated in a meta that's extremely overpowered as is. I certainly don't think he's ban worthy.
Wait, what? First of all, you, like so many people before you, clearly don't understand the difference between a counter and a check. Did you read any of the last 50 pages? It was probably explained at least once on each of them.
Secondly, Talonflame's a totally different discussion
Thirdly, how in the world do Heracross, Medicham, and Pinsir fulfill similar roles? None of them can hit specially, and of those, only pinsir has the set up, speed, and priority to do half the things people complain about Lucario for.
Fourthly, it's way too late to do anything about it anyway. I'd bet my favorite pants that Lucarionite's already got enough votes to be banned.
haunter
Banned deucer.
I know that I'm somehow spoiling them but, trust me, when you see the results of the vote, you'll realize that it was not just a few people jumping on the hatewagon...
Also, the fact that M-Lucario has received a suspect test despite the "extremely overpowered" metagame it's currently part of, should probably be quite telling of its level of power.
I understand what you're saying.
And I do know the difference between a counter and a check... Please don't insult me.
A counter can switch in, safely survive the attack twice if it's slower. Or survive one attack if it's faster/has priority, and KO. Max HP Aegislash survive a Nasty Plot Dark Pulse as well as a Swords Dance Crunch. It can then KO with Sacred Sword. This makes it a counter as long as SR isn't on the field.
Talonflame is a check to Mega Lucario. It survives +2 Extremespeed and KOs with CB Brave Bird. I know the difference. Please don't make assumptions.
M-Lucario's unpredictability does make it more threatening than many sweepers, but I honestly don't feel it's ban worthy. Maybe my team just hasn't had a hard time playing around it.
It is a situational check since its efficacy as a check is highly contingent on whether Stealth Rock is on the field
Yes, it is a situational check. But there many pokemon that can check it fairly well. However, I understand that being able to check a pokemon doesn't make it any less ban-worthy. It is difficult to counter due to its unpredictability. Although - I would argue that the special set is highly outclassed by the physical set. The only reason to really run the special set is to draw in counters to physically based M-Lucario and kill them.
Well, unless you made reqs, it doesn't really matter what you think now, does it?. Not saying that to be mean because I didn't make reqs (read: I didn't try) but if you didn't make reqs, then you don't really have the say-so in whether Mega Skywalker gets the hammer. Plus, I don't think the votes spared Lucarionite or Genesect. Deoxys was probably spared. Note: I am just suggesting we give predictions on the votes, not arguments behind it since if we didn't make reqs we can't vote anyway.
Hm. I get what you're saying as far as getting down to what set it is, but my concern is more about the how Gene plays out from there. Clearly if we're playing on the calcs level, Band Gene can't guarantee more than one turn in on Fire Lati@s, but if its Scarf or EBelt you can't take that risk at all. Banded / Specs (does that get use? idk) and Scarfed Gene do very different things, with the former two being hole punchers and the latter revenging or grabbing momentum off of 3/4s of the game. Against higher opponents, predictability only matters if you run EBelt, but having predictable sets barely makes a difference, everyone knows exactly what is going to happen when Terrakion, Garchomp, Thundurus, and Keldeo come in, but they're still excellent Pokemon. Its more about potential danger when it comes down to Genesect.
Probable outcomes vs. Scarf Genesect
1) You switch, Gene U-Turns into a check / counter to whatever you sent out
2) You stay in, Gene U-Turns into the next best thing to take you on
3) You stay in, Gene smashes you in the face with a super effective move
4) You switch, Gene goes for coverage
a) Hitting your switch in NVE, Gene switches out
b) Predicts your switch and smashes your face in
As soon as Genesect hits the field on something that it can potentially hurt, you're forced into a corner. When you consider that it can do a solid amount to everything but dedicated counters, and then take in how easy it is to wear down Heatran and Rotom-H, its only real limitations are 100+ Scarfers and user decisions.b) Predicts your switch and smashes your face in
Heatran may not be the only Genesect counter, but its the most common and often only surefire counter people can throw on a team. Aegislash isn't really that good of counter, since it takes 40-48% from an unboosted Flamethrower, which is questionable if you plan on doing anything else with Aegislash, so I'd hesitate to call it a counter. Rotom-H takes next to nothing, but is SR weak and gets worn down quickly without reliable recovery. Mega Venusaur actually takes a fair amount from either Ice Beam, Flamethrower (32.9 - 39%), or U-Turn (30.4 - 36.2%), depending on how you EV it (I haven't bothered optimizing, though, so take that as you will), plus Mega slot. However, you're switching in, taking U-Turn, and switching out because counter. Then you do it again. And you really aren't getting free turns to heal up if you play it safe against Genesect, because it'll just keep forcing you out, racking up damage. Heatran just happens to deal with Genesect's damage and being forced in and out really well, it fits a ton of teams really well, and people use it because of that.
yisss
Here is where people generally overlook. Genesect does has four choices as stated, but it is not like all the choices will always generate positive outcome, you are seriously understating how much are choice 2 and 4a backfiring the user of Genesect.
Also, it is unfair to exclude
when you have listed out 4b
Well, 2 isn't that bad if you happen to have another Pokemon that can switch in. Worst case scenario is that Gene was your only counter, but at that point you'd want to be playing fairly conservatively.
Point taken.
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