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Pokémon Toxapex
- Thread starter Samoyed
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Why is Haze a good move? It just resets stat changes and cure everyone in the field of status effects, I think.
Haze is a good move because it stops something that has set up, or stops something setting up on it. It does not cure status'.
Sure, merciless is just a gimmick on Toxapex, but can you imagine what it could do on a more offensive mon? Try skill swapping it onto a Gengar with Venoshock while using The Toxapex with Toxic/ toxic spikes and maybe baneful bunker to help it out. Run recover for heal Due to the lack of Regenerator, And you've got yourself a beast.
No one was arguing that Merciless was a bad ability. We were simply arguing that merciless is a bad ability *on Toxapex*.
Of course there will be pokemon who can exploit that well one day. It just isn't this one. Especially considering how amazing regenerator is on a defensive pokemon.
Because of the protection. Sure, The poison isn't as good, But I would've run protect on mine anyway, so it's an added bonus.
The issue with Baneful Bunker, is that it deals steady damage because it only poisons the opponent, the easiest to deal with out of all the status effects. Unlike having Toxic which can hinder things that set-up on it or switch-in, this just gives either a free turn of set up or a lenient status effect. The utility you give up with Toxic for this variant of protect is just not worth it in the long run.
The amount of Showdown replays I see where a player wins because they get to set up on Toxapex basically for free due to lack of Haze is astounding.
Without Haze, Toxapex is basically set-up bait. Without Toxic, you're not putting on enough pressure. Sure, Protect is a good move for recovery + toxic damage stalling, but it's not better than the other options and it definitely shouldn't be considered as a consistent source of Poison (see: Merciless sets with Veno/Scald/Bunker/Recover).
Without Haze, Toxapex is basically set-up bait. Without Toxic, you're not putting on enough pressure. Sure, Protect is a good move for recovery + toxic damage stalling, but it's not better than the other options and it definitely shouldn't be considered as a consistent source of Poison (see: Merciless sets with Veno/Scald/Bunker/Recover).
With Toxic, Recover, and Haze being too good to pass on you almost need something offensive for the last slot otherwise you get taunted into struggling.
You shouldnt run toxic spikes on him?
That or Toxic, it's been debated but Toxic seems the more reliable pick.
You could run it, but why would you? What he said is quite true, Toxic, Haze and Recover are just too good together. Therefore you absolutely need 1 attack to not be destroyed by Taunt.
Not both?
I have a couple questions.
First, can someone explain why baneful bunker is not viable?
Can't it be used as a stall tactic when the enemy has been poisoned similar to how people use protect as a stall tactic?
Also, isn't venoshock a decent move when the enemy is poisoned? The power of the move becomes 292 after calculating STAB and critical hit from the Merciless ability! I know that Toxapex has a poor special attack but wouldn't power like that make a dent?
Thanks in advance.
First, can someone explain why baneful bunker is not viable?
Can't it be used as a stall tactic when the enemy has been poisoned similar to how people use protect as a stall tactic?
Also, isn't venoshock a decent move when the enemy is poisoned? The power of the move becomes 292 after calculating STAB and critical hit from the Merciless ability! I know that Toxapex has a poor special attack but wouldn't power like that make a dent?
Thanks in advance.
There's really no reason to. And with so many poison types (namely nihilego and toxapex) running around toxic spikes is really unreliable.
It's gimicky and can be useful I guess but for the most part toxapex should not be relied on for damaging stuff. It's a good pivot and damage sponge but that's its use in the meta.
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I'm playing Moon and use both Toxic and Baneful Bunker, as I need a Protect move to start stalling (and both have 10PP). It was pretty good on predicting aswell, tried then on simulator and Baneful Bunker is very good for predicting U-Turn from Pherormosa, she got both poisoned and hit by Rocky Helmet Damage. I was running like Toxic, Baneful Bunker, Recover and Liquidation.
Here's a well-explained outline of why nobody respectful uses Baneful Bunker. tl;dr toxapex is pitifully weak and therefore doesn't force the opponent to make alternative yet unoptimal decisions, Protect is generally unneeded for something with great recovery already.
As explained previously in the thread, no one respectful or serious enough runs Merciless and with Haze + Scald you check most passive fairies already.
Jesus Christ why do people just dont get why offensive Tox is garbage
You know what I hate? When people are unable to support or articulate any sort of judgement on something that isn't one of two extremes.
It's either broken/overpowered or it's trash/garbage. When most of the time it's somewhere in between, but would require the person to put actual work, research, and effort into their argument. It's rarely that simple and the only people you're going to convince are those just as lazy as you are because taking someone at their word is world easier than putting in the work to confirm anything for yourself.
If value were based solely on either how resilient or how damaging something was things would be much less complicated, but they aren't. It's often a complex situation wherein in a variety of sets are certain degrees of useful in a myriad of ways from match to match.
I love how merciless is just enough of an additional boost that despite its low offensive stats it could very easily catch someone off guard. Pretty much every Toxapex set has some means of poisoning so there's always going to be that potential what if?
BP means a lot. It's why Talonflame could hit hard despite only having a decent attack stat. It's why Mega Mawile doesn't hit anywhere near as hard as the highest attack stat in the game would lead you to believe it would. It lacks access to the hardest hitting 120 + BP moves. You ideally want both the BP and the stat to support it though having a lot of just one is still enough to be threatening. 65 -> 130 (on Poisoned) -> 195 (on Poisoned with STAB) -> 292 (on Poisoned with STAB and Merciless) and suddenly it's no longer something you can just ignore. It's a legitimate threat.
See a Regenerator set or one you might be bluffing loves the increasing potency of badly poisoning. Merciless doesn't care. It's about efficiency. It doesn't even have to be the one to apply the poison condition. All it takes is the application of that one status condition and the power behind Venoshock has the potential to more than quadruple in potency. The two abilities cater to different roles, but if you think Toxapex isn't capable of dealing heavy damage if it wants to, you're in for a rude awakening.
Which one will it be? The passive regenerator or the merciless attacker capable of outputting 292 BP Venoshocks? The simple fact that it can be one or the other is enough to give your opponent pause when you click Toxic and poison them. Is it just badly poison and they can't really hurt me or am I about to get blown back?
It's either broken/overpowered or it's trash/garbage. When most of the time it's somewhere in between, but would require the person to put actual work, research, and effort into their argument. It's rarely that simple and the only people you're going to convince are those just as lazy as you are because taking someone at their word is world easier than putting in the work to confirm anything for yourself.
If value were based solely on either how resilient or how damaging something was things would be much less complicated, but they aren't. It's often a complex situation wherein in a variety of sets are certain degrees of useful in a myriad of ways from match to match.
I love how merciless is just enough of an additional boost that despite its low offensive stats it could very easily catch someone off guard. Pretty much every Toxapex set has some means of poisoning so there's always going to be that potential what if?
BP means a lot. It's why Talonflame could hit hard despite only having a decent attack stat. It's why Mega Mawile doesn't hit anywhere near as hard as the highest attack stat in the game would lead you to believe it would. It lacks access to the hardest hitting 120 + BP moves. You ideally want both the BP and the stat to support it though having a lot of just one is still enough to be threatening. 65 -> 130 (on Poisoned) -> 195 (on Poisoned with STAB) -> 292 (on Poisoned with STAB and Merciless) and suddenly it's no longer something you can just ignore. It's a legitimate threat.
See a Regenerator set or one you might be bluffing loves the increasing potency of badly poisoning. Merciless doesn't care. It's about efficiency. It doesn't even have to be the one to apply the poison condition. All it takes is the application of that one status condition and the power behind Venoshock has the potential to more than quadruple in potency. The two abilities cater to different roles, but if you think Toxapex isn't capable of dealing heavy damage if it wants to, you're in for a rude awakening.
Which one will it be? The passive regenerator or the merciless attacker capable of outputting 292 BP Venoshocks? The simple fact that it can be one or the other is enough to give your opponent pause when you click Toxic and poison them. Is it just badly poison and they can't really hurt me or am I about to get blown back?
To anyone still defending Merciless + Venoshock, I ask: what does Merciless + Venoshock beat that standard Toxapex doesn't? The only thing I can think of is Clefable.
So Toxapex can stall like nobody's business. It outstalled a Mega-Sab and a Chansey.
http://play.pokemonshowdown.com/battle-gen7pokebankou-489726404
I've been using it on my Rain Team
Toxapex @ Black Sludge
Regenerator
Bold 252HP/252Def/4Spd
Scald
Recover
Haze
Toxic
Haze is maybe the best part of the set. Fodder for stalls and a great way to kill sweepers.
http://play.pokemonshowdown.com/battle-gen7pokebankou-489726404
I've been using it on my Rain Team
Toxapex @ Black Sludge
Regenerator
Bold 252HP/252Def/4Spd
Scald
Recover
Haze
Toxic
Haze is maybe the best part of the set. Fodder for stalls and a great way to kill sweepers.
The Tapus, excluding Tapu Fini. A combo of Toxic Spikes and Venoshock can cripple or even beat them on the switch.
Anyway, it's pretty much obvious that Regenerator is the superior choice and should be used most of the times, but Merciless could get some merit as a surprise factor and be used in some specific teams, kind of like Unaware Clefable has some use in some specific team builds.
After trying the set for a few games out of sheer boredom, I have concluded that I personally do not think Merciless + Venoshock Toxapex is very viable. I will do my best to support this belief.
Your statement about the importance of BP is quite accurate; however I do not think Talonflame is a very fair example in this context. Brave Bird was not good on Talonflame simply due to its high BP. Rather, Brave Bird was good on Talonflame because it was a move that offered STAB fast priority from a very solid offensive typing that ALSO had high BP. Conversely, Toxapex's high BP Merciless + Venoshocks are tied to a typing that is quite poor offensively and come from a Pokemon with base 35 speed. Even with that being said, one must consider the fact that Toxapex is only firing off high BP moves when its opponent is poisoned.
The poison prerequisite alone makes Venoshock + Merciless Toxapex extremely unreliable. If your opponent has a poisoned Pokemon in front of a Toxapex in which Venoshock is revealed (or when Regenerator is clearly not revealed after Toxapex switches), they may simply switch into a new Pokemon and turn your high BP Venoshocks back into 65 BP moves coming off of a base 53 special attack stat.
For the sake of your argument, let us consider that you have been able to keep at least 1 layer of Toxic Spikes on the field and can now somewhat reliably hit high BP Venoshocks against non-Poison/Steel/Floating Pokemon. Is this really viable?
We have seen extremely strong wallbreakers with mediocre base speeds in the past. While a base 35 speed stat leads Toxapex to getting outsped by even defensive threats, the more crucial factor holding back Merciless + Venoshock's walbreaking potential is Poison's poor offensive capabilities. Consider the fact that many of the meta's most prevalent defensive types are Steel types. This is not similar to other offensive Pokemon walled by Steel types that can address this with coverage. Toxapex is just unable to touch Poison types at all due to their natural immunity to Toxic + Poison from everything except Salazzle. And even if you could poison them:
252+ SpA Toxapex Scald vs. 252 HP / 140+ SpD Celesteela on a critical hit: 99-117 (24.8 - 29.3%) -- guaranteed 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
Megagross and Tapu Lele are walled by steel types. Venoshock + Merciless Toxapex is completely shut down by steel types. If your opponent has a steel type Pokemon in their team and a Poisoned Pokemon out against your Venoshock + Merciless Toxapex, they can switch in their Steel type almost risk-free. Yes, Scald burns are effective, but they are also equally (if not more) effective on the defensive regenerator variant.
Furthermore, should you get the poison off, does this status not already severely cripple defensive Pokemon? As far as I can tell, Venoshock + Merciless is only strong against defensive Pokemon when they are not Steel or Poison and already crippled by a (Badly) Poison status. Regardless of how specific and narrow that situation is, the fact that these defensive Pokemon must already be crippled to lose to Toxapex makes its wallbreaking capabilities unnecessary.
So what about offensive threats? Well unlike a Talon Flame's Brave Bird, a Merciless Venoshock is coming off of a base 35 speed stat. While Toxapex's incredible natural bulk can allow it to tank hits from any non-Tapu, as readytolose states, the merciless + venoshock set does not seem to allow Merciless + Venoshock Toxapex to beat any offensive Pokemon (or frankly any Pokemon) that a defensive + regenerator Toxapex would not also beat.
Honestly, I'm not even sure Haze Toxapex loses to Clefable 1v1 but I think it's fair to say Merciless + Venoshock beats Clefable much more definitively.
Edit: Darklatias92 points out that this set can threaten poisoned Fairy types (such as the Tapus) on the switch-in whereas the defensive set cannot. That is a fair point. However, the fact that Merciless becomes immediately apparent after switching out and in just once (IMO) limits its ability to truly lure anything. It's also important to note that both Tapu Lele and Tapu Koko still beat Venoshock + Merciless Toxapex 1v1. Tapu Bulu can beat an offensive max HP Merciless Toxapex 1v1 if that Toxapex is not running any defense EVs.
Venoshock might be run eventually as a tech but I seriously doubt Merciless will ever see usage that surpasses that of Regenerator's usage.
TL;DR: Merciless + Venoshock is unreliable due to the poison prerequisite. Similarly, the poison requirement makes Merciless + Venoshock's capabilities vs. defending Pokemon somewhat redundant. Furthemore, Merciless + Venoshock Toxapex is effectively incapable of threatening any relevant Steel type defensive threats beyond what a defensive Toxapex can, even with coverage. Merciless + Venoshock Toxapex is also unable to beat many, if any, relevant (offensive) Pokemon that its defensive variant can not also beat.
I'm interested in continuing this discussion with you or anyone if I'm missing something (which I honestly might be).
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