Assuming breloom is still popular even with Spore's nerf this gen, Chesnaught could be THE Techniloom counter. He's immune to spore and Bullet Seed and has spiky shield to deal with Mach punch. This is only a niche though, Chesnaught will be UU with Delphox and Greninja will most likely be OU after the meta settles down.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Pokémon the starters role in the metagame
- Thread starter Youngchris17
- Start date
- Status
My only problem with YZard is you pretty much need a dedicated Rapid Spinner to run it effectively. Granted, there are so many of those around now that synergize well with it that it should be a problem running one. For me, the fact that your primary sweeper could be already down to 50% health when it switches in just kinda scares me. I think he'll still be OU, just because of Drought and the fact that he may be the best answer to Mega Venusaur, who is going to be quite popular.
And yeah Delphox is a beast :)
With spore essentially nerfed, Breloom is outclassed by Scizor as a Choiced Technician sweeper and by Mega Venusaur as a SubSeeder. I don't see I being OU at least for the majority of the Gen. Chesnaught is interesting enough simply because Spiky Shield/Leech Seed could work on a stall team. But it's definitely niche OU at best, I agree.
It is just me, or is this the best group of starters we've had since Gen 3-4?
It is, gen 5 was god awful save for an unreleased contrary serperior back then
Actually, I've run my Megazard Y into SR multiple times in Showdown, and because of:
1. It's improved Special Bulk
2. It's lack of reliance on Choice items
It can run Roost relatively unscathed. The really cool thing about Megazard Y is that it's really good at encouraging switches. It has a very nice set of resistances and immunities, and a lot of 'mons just don't want to be around in the sun, especially with a base 159 Sp. Attacker around. So it gets a chance to heal up with Roost.
I still really like to run Espeon with Charizard. Not only are they my two favorite Pokemon, but Espeon also becomes very effective at boosting in the sun thanks to 2/3s HP healing, and it can pass CM boosts to Charizard. And Magic Bounce.
There's also Excadrill, but I've actually never used one, and I can't figure out how to run a bulky set correctly for some reason.
Monte Cristo
Banned deucer.
LOL SHOWDOWN, no offense to zarel/joim but showdown's movepools and base stats are about as close to fabricated as you can get, they have even known to incorporate rumors!, like, Po is being more accurate right now, what the fuck? try it on PO and see how it goes,
I think you're giving Delphox a little too much credit here. Fire isn't quite the best typing in OU what with rain and stealth rocks being all too common. Looking at the fire types in gen 5 OU, they needed to bring a lot to the table to maintain their spot in the tier:
Delphox is the best fire starter bar BeastKen, no doubt, charizard is stupidly overhyped, for fucks sake it really only holds the fire type over dragons, it's wallbreaking is surpassed by mega and regular chomp and kyuB, which can actually 2ko mega venu with no boosts by just straight up going CB (in reg chomps case, not mega chomps case) outrage, while flare blitz will only 3ko phys def mega venu thans to thick fat coming off charizard's thought to be ridiculous 130 base attack, thsi is just 1 example, there are many more, like oh I don't know KS Aegislash? KS aegi will never drop garchomps offenses due to earthquake being a non contact move unless your stupid enough to overpredict and go for outrage instead of EQ, while charizard can get it's attack dropped by 2 entire stages, and unlike blaze and talonflame, which get SD, it will take 2 turns to make that drop up with dragon dance, and even then it's only to reach back up to a 130 base attack, even max attack bulk up gogoat with EQ handles fucking aegi better, and this is a fire type we're talking about here. come the fuck on.
It's BL at most in terms of viability , but knowing all the STUPID ass charizard fanboys in the OU usage stats, combined with these guy's actual usage , it probably will be OU.
Anyway, back to delphox,choice delphox gets both GK and switcheroo letting it fuck with chansey, ttar and blissey
252 SpA Delphox Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Chansey: 258-304 (40.18 - 47.35%) -- 47.66% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock (after switcheroo) (assuming in gen 6 people will pick up the same spread they use for blissey, if not, it's I guess a 3HKO after SR)
252 SpA Choice Specs Delphox Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Blissey: 354-417 (54.29 - 63.95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Delphox Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Cresselia: 213-252 (47.97 - 56.75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Delphox Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 180 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in sand: 238-282 (61.65 - 73.05%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Delphox Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Florges : 183-216 (50.83 - 60%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Delphox Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Sylveon: 213-252 (54.06 - 63.95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Delphox Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Snorlax: 253-298 (48.28 - 56.87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Delphox Grass Knot (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Suicune: 264-312 (65.34 - 77.22%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Delphox Grass Knot (100 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Jellicent: 282-334 (69.97 - 82.87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (Physical wall/Utilltiy check Jellicent)
252 SpA Choice Specs Delphox Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 36 Def Jellicent: 228-268 (56.43 - 66.33%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (Special Wall Jellicent)
252 SpA Choice Specs Delphox Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 248 HP / 116+ SpD Slowking: 180-214 (45.8 - 54.45%) -- 98.83% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
This is delphox's SECOND strongest set, and oh look what are it's counters between OU and UU?: latias, phys def.chansey end fucking list
this thing has less checks than keldeo itself, KELDEO, one of the most predominant forces of late BW2 (not as powerful as people say it is, but still stinking powerful)
Want to meet delphox's strongest set? meet Offensive calm mind
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Delphox Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 308-363 (43.75 - 51.56%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Delphox Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Blissey: 460-542 (70.55 - 83.12%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Delphox Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in sand: 224-265 (55.44 - 65.59%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Delphox Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 180 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in sand: 309-367 (80.05 - 95.07%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Delphox Fire Blast vs. 72 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 138-164 (43.26 - 51.41%) -- 98.83% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Delphox Grass Knot (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Suicune: 343-406 (84.9 - 100.49%) -- 81.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Delphox Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 248 HP / 116+ SpD Slowking: 234-278 (59.54 - 70.73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Delphox Psyshock vs. 144 HP / 188 Def Snorlax: 257-304 (51.71 - 61.16%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Delphox Grass Knot (100 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Jellicent: 367-434 (91.06 - 107.69%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Delphox Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 36 Def Jellicent: 296-348 (73.26 - 86.13%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
GG stall, GG
And don't tell me "it can be revenged" so can garchomp, so can keldeo, so can terrakion, who gives a shit, the scarf set and the all out attacker surprisingly trouble offense as it handles a lot of the things commonly seen on offense
Heatran — amazing poke, fantastic typing/ability combination, massive SpA and solid defenses. Heatran walled a very nice portion of the metagame and I'd say destroys Delphox in terms of viability. Tran also boasted only neutral damage from rocks and walls the crap out of Delphox btw.
Volcarona — 135 SpA / 100 Spe quiver dance. Pretty self explanatory why this thing was OU. Again, generally outclasses Delphox b/c of its superior boosting move/SpA and viability even in Rain.
Ninetails — Perma-sun. It's somewhat hard to compare Ninetails and Delphox.
Infernape — Definitely the worst fire type in OU and probably would've been fine in UU this gen but still boasts some nice traits that make it more viable than Fox. First, it also takes neutral from rocks. Second, it can run mixed, special or physical, giving it a surprise factor that Delphox fails to duplicate. Third, it could set up rocks and gain momentum with u-turn. Fourth, it had access to both SD and NP, two boosting moves that easily outclass Calm mind for Delphox's purposes. Fifth, one of the only reasons that kept Ape OU was that it absolutely destroyed things with the strongest sun-boosted Flare Blitz in OU. Yes, Fox can spam sun-boosted fire blasts but it gets outclassed in this role. In addition, I can't overstate that Fox also will no longer be able to abuse perma-sun like fire types in gen 5.
If Victini, which outclasses Fox in every way (much much much better movepool, better defenses, unpredictability) except only slightly lower SpA and Spe, didn't even make the OU cut gen 5, I don't see how on earth Delphox will make it in an even more competitive OU this gen.
Monte Cristo
Banned deucer.
Not to be a jerk or anything, but I really want to smash anybody who says this's face in with a baseball bat, just because of how stupid, lazy and untrue argument this is
Delphox and victini play completely differently, victini is known for 2 things in the UU tier: lure mixed sets and fucking vcreate both of which are completely different from what delphox does, you are honestly looking at this so biased against it that you can't imagine 1 positive thing about it, it has 114 SpA, 104 speed tier, outspeeding such as garchomp , calm mind, great coverage in GK and overall jsut BOSSness
I'll say it once: NOTHING IN THE UU META IS COMPARABLE TO DELPHOX, STOP TRYING TO FUCKING COMPARE RANDOM STUPID SHIT TO IT, IT DOESN'T.FUCKING.WORK.
Seriously, also, yeah rain totally crushes delphox when it got super nerfed this gen to 5 turns and delphox can 2/OHko politoed, isn't that just SOO true
I'm done at this point, I have done with so much random bullshit arguments in other threads, I'm not having this, I'll let you be ignorant and continue thinking like this whatever, I don't give a shit anymore
Can you please be angrier over nothing? It's this weird, unprovoked, hyper-aggressive type of posting that so often ruins discussions.
You're right, it's not worth comparing Victini to Delphox. I mean Victini only has the same special movepool, the exact same typing, very similar offensive stats and is only the closest pokemon in the entire game to Delphox lol.
The fact that you don't think Victini runs all out special sets, like the one you proposed for Delphox, is a little upsetting. I suggest you brush up on your Victini knowledge before talking shit.
SMH, I wish people would stop fanboying their favorite 6th gen starter and actually take a moment to think about what they're saying before they come off as rude and ignorant.
Last edited:
I'd actually say it's the other way around. Delphox outclasses Victini. Victini has doesn't have Power, Speed, or Calm Mind, so any Special set it tries to run will automatically be inferior to Delphox.
Delphox's competition is pretty much limited to Volcarona and Special Infernape (Maybe Pyroar, but I don't know it's movepool). And it has an advantage over each of those. To Volcarona, it doesn't lose over 75%% of it's health switching into full hazard, and it doesn't need to boost it's speed. For Special Infernape, it has better coverage options, and Special Infernape really isn't the best way to go anyway. So for a fast Sp. Attacking Fire type, Delphox (and Pyroar, but again, idk movepool) is your only option besides Arceus Fire.
Ok, since this is the starter thread, how about I make the obvious comparison I made in the Delphox thread itself and say it has NOTHING OVER INFERNAPE? Sereously, I can't see a single thing outside of I guess STAB Psyshock for all that's worth. (and in the above sets, I laugh every time I see Psyshock because Infernape blows every one of those things out of the water easily)
EDIT: "Victini has nothing over Delphox." Searing Shot. Blue Flare. You said nothing, that's definitely not nothing.
Let me stop you right there.
1) Victini has pretty much the same speed as Fox when you consider that the only two things Fox outspeeds that Victini doesn't (in OU at least) is non-mega Garchomp and Thundurus-T. Considering Chomp beats Fox 1 on 1 anyway the added speed is almost trivial
2) The claim that Victini doesn't have power is flawed in that it gets a base 180 STAB move.
3) The fact that Vic doesn't get calm mind is irrelevant because when is something with meh defenses and a plethora of weaknesses realistically going to get an opportunity to come in and then set up.
4) Victini also gets Blue Flare, Focus Blast and Thunder; in no way are its special sets inferior.
Firstly, that's an awesome avatar pic you have there.
1. Delphox outspeeds the massive numbers of pokemon with 100 base speed, like Volcarona, Salamence, and a few others that are even faster, like Thundrus and Landorus. But this is even a bigger deal when you realize that the only other decent Fire types that outsepeed such pokemon are Infernape and Arceus-Fire.
2. By power I meant attacking stats, and yes V-Create is awesome, but it's Physical, so it doesn't really fit into the comparison
3. 75/72/100 isn't bad by any means. It can tank a special move on the turn it runs calm mind
4. Alright, so coverage is better with Victini, though I'm not sure you're going to want to use Thunder on a Fire type.
On the special side, Delphox still hits harder and faster than Victini does, and is the better option if you are looking for a Special Fire type sweeper.
252 SpA Life Orb Delphox Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Cresselia: 156-185 (35.13 - 41.66%)
252 SpA Life Orb Victini Blue Flare vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Cresselia: 183-216 (41.21 - 48.64%)
Not only does Vic hit harder, but Blue Flare boasts better accuracy due to Victory Star (plus a higher chance to burn).
As for thunder on Victini, because Vic gets Victory Star, Thunder is viable.
Victini has a 50% chance to outspeed two of the things you mentioned and Delphox loses 1 v 1 against all the things you mentioned except Thundurus despite outspeeding so that doesn't do much for it.
Delphox should never be OU. It gives Latios/Latias/Hydreigon/Dragonite (this is absolutely awful) free switch-ins, is weak to all forms of hazards, has no surprise factor whatsoever, gets outsped by or can't kill even most offensive powerhouses in OU, gets pooped on by pursuit Tyranitar, gets outclassed by a 5th gen UU poke and has nothing significant that makes it stand out in the OU tier. Regardless of what calcs you run where it miraculously gets a SpA boost and does a lot of damage to a wall, what may look alright on paper hardly proves reliable when used in an actual battle.
I also think people are grossly over-exaggerating the potential of some of the new starters. The only one I could actually see realistically being OU is Greninja simply because it can run Offensive or spikes support which adds to its versatility.
Last edited:
There also isn't permanent Rain, which was far more prevalent than Permanent Sun ever was [Not to mention Rain had the advantage over Sun in general], and cut one of it's STAB's by 50%. I'd say the lack of Perma-Rain is a much bigger boost than the lack of Perma-Sun is a nerf. At the very least the two cancel each other out and leave Blaziken exactly where it was before. [Uber]
Also, Mega Blaziken exists now, although I'm not sure how much better M-Blazeiken's stats are now. Switch Blaziken on something that forces a switch, Mega-Evolve, get a speed boost. You don't need Protect really.
I don't see Blaziken being anything but Uber again.
As for the Gen 6 starters:
Greninja: I personally think Protean is over-hyped; it can be played around and predicted to hit it with SE moves, and it's offensive stats are not exactly great, and it's frail as well. Switching it is isn't exactly easy with it's pretty paper defenses and weakness to Grass, Electric, Fighting, Bug [U-Turn] and Fairy. Also Protean makes it automatically lose it's Psychic Immunity, unless, of course, it uses a Dark-move. Still, I think it may make low OU, maybe a Protean-Specs set for revenge killing?
Delphox: I think people are under-estimating it somewhat. Delphox gets screens and is fast, and Fire/Psychic is not a bad STAB combination. Delphox can easily force a switch and set up a screen. It may not make OU, but I would hardly count it out. I'd say Rocks are more of a threat to it being OU than anything else.
Chesnaught: Oh look, the Grass starter is the bottom of the barrel by far. Again.[Venusaur took 4 gens to come to the top and that's only due to it's Hidden Ability and Perma-Drought. I doubt it'll be OU this Gen] When is Gamefreak gonna start giving the Grass starters a higher BST to make up for Grass not being a good type unlike Fire and Water? This thing is gonna be RU at best. x4 Flying weakness in a tier that would probobly contain things like Swellow is pretty bad.
You hate Charizard, do you?
Delphox is the best fire starter bar BeastKen, no doubt, charizard is stupidly overhyped, for fucks sake it really only holds the fire type over dragons, it's wallbreaking is surpassed by mega and regular chomp and kyuB, which can actually 2ko mega venu with no boosts by just straight up going CB (in reg chomps case, not mega chomps case) outrage, while flare blitz will only 3ko phys def mega venu thans to thick fat coming off charizard's thought to be ridiculous 130 base attack, thsi is just 1 example, there are many more, like oh I don't know KS Aegislash? KS aegi will never drop garchomps offenses due to earthquake being a non contact move unless your stupid enough to overpredict and go for outrage instead of EQ, while charizard can get it's attack dropped by 2 entire stages, and unlike blaze and talonflame, which get SD, it will take 2 turns to make that drop up with dragon dance, and even then it's only to reach back up to a 130 base attack, even max attack bulk up gogoat with EQ handles fucking aegi better, and this is a fire type we're talking about here. come the fuck on.
It's BL at most in terms of viability , but knowing all the STUPID ass charizard fanboys in the OU usage stats, combined with these guy's actual usage , it probably will be OU.
Anyway, back to delphox,choice delphox gets both GK and switcheroo letting it fuck with chansey, ttar and blissey
252 SpA Delphox Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Chansey: 258-304 (40.18 - 47.35%) -- 47.66% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock (after switcheroo) (assuming in gen 6 people will pick up the same spread they use for blissey, if not, it's I guess a 3HKO after SR)
252 SpA Choice Specs Delphox Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Blissey: 354-417 (54.29 - 63.95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Delphox Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Cresselia: 213-252 (47.97 - 56.75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Delphox Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 180 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in sand: 238-282 (61.65 - 73.05%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Delphox Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Florges : 183-216 (50.83 - 60%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Delphox Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Sylveon: 213-252 (54.06 - 63.95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Delphox Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Snorlax: 253-298 (48.28 - 56.87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Delphox Grass Knot (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Suicune: 264-312 (65.34 - 77.22%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Delphox Grass Knot (100 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Jellicent: 282-334 (69.97 - 82.87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (Physical wall/Utilltiy check Jellicent)
252 SpA Choice Specs Delphox Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 36 Def Jellicent: 228-268 (56.43 - 66.33%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (Special Wall Jellicent)
252 SpA Choice Specs Delphox Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 248 HP / 116+ SpD Slowking: 180-214 (45.8 - 54.45%) -- 98.83% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
This is delphox's SECOND strongest set, and oh look what are it's counters between OU and UU?: latias, phys def.chansey end fucking list
this thing has less checks than keldeo itself, KELDEO, one of the most predominant forces of late BW2 (not as powerful as people say it is, but still stinking powerful)
Want to meet delphox's strongest set? meet Offensive calm mind
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Delphox Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 308-363 (43.75 - 51.56%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Delphox Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Blissey: 460-542 (70.55 - 83.12%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Delphox Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in sand: 224-265 (55.44 - 65.59%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Delphox Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 180 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in sand: 309-367 (80.05 - 95.07%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Delphox Fire Blast vs. 72 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 138-164 (43.26 - 51.41%) -- 98.83% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Delphox Grass Knot (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Suicune: 343-406 (84.9 - 100.49%) -- 81.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Delphox Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 248 HP / 116+ SpD Slowking: 234-278 (59.54 - 70.73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Delphox Psyshock vs. 144 HP / 188 Def Snorlax: 257-304 (51.71 - 61.16%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Delphox Grass Knot (100 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Jellicent: 367-434 (91.06 - 107.69%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Delphox Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 36 Def Jellicent: 296-348 (73.26 - 86.13%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
GG stall, GG
And don't tell me "it can be revenged" so can garchomp, so can keldeo, so can terrakion, who gives a shit, the scarf set and the all out attacker surprisingly trouble offense as it handles a lot of the things commonly seen on offense
You say that Protean can be played around and predicted, but isn't that ture vice versa? I could easily predict that you predicted, so on and so forth, so that's not really a good argument. Not to mention that a lot of pokemon don't have the perfect coverage to counter him. One of the great things about Protean is that it provides mind games and resistances/immunity on demand.
Your secondary argument about Greninja is just completely contradictory, you somehow look at both of the bad and none of the good. You say it has all those weaknesses, and then you complain about it losing Psychic immunity lol, I don't know if you realized but those things can't possibly happen at the same time. It's true that he has bad weaknesses, but those weaknesses are almost never going to matter because you'll be switching types every single turn (Predictable Grass/Fairy/Bug/Fighting move incoming? Use HP Fire or Toxic Spikes, Electric? Use Spikes, etc). This means that Greninja essentially has a CONTROLLABLE RANDOM type, and thus more mind games with Protean; a move that was super effective when the enemy clicked it could be resisted or negated by the time it hits. Also, choice items are a fairly bad idea on Greninja as you lose the immunities, resistances, mind games and full moveset STAB coverage. That's another thing if you didn't know by the way, since Protean happens before the move is used, every single move you use will be STAB (This also means that Hidden Power is actually BUFFED 20BP this gen for Greninja as opposed to a max 70BP HP from B/W). With his high speed, offensive options, respectable movepool, mind games, resistances/immunity, STAB moveset, and spike setup, he will almost definitely make it to OU.
Lastly, I've heard a lot of things about Chesnaught and I think you might be selling him really short here. The Chesnaught thread certainly doesn't seem to think he's weak by any means. From what I understand, he's like a more offensive Ferrothorn.
Both of those mons have superior secondary STAB, and if you've made a team with Volc in it and you let a full set of hazards get up, you're doing it wrong and you have only yourself to blame, not the viability of the mon.
Delphox looks better in some ways on paper but in practice, pitted against the mons Volc and Infernape are tried and true against, I think its typing and movepool are going to come up short. It lacks the unpredictability of the latter and the precision of movepool/raw power of the former, while having all the same weaknesses and then some.
LOL, feeling like this thread has just turned into a Delphox bash fest. While I am a big fan of the fox magician, I will say that I think it cannot be a straight up sweeper simply because it is outclassed by many other mons (Though I do think we're overlooking the fact that it gets Psyshock and Switcheroo which pretty much allows it to kick Blissey in the balls). That said, it's good speed and relative bulkiness can allow it to be a good support Poke. It can set up screens, Switcheroo something to cripple it, and lower Sp. attackers with mystical fire. I think it could actually be a decent phazer and support Poke. At this point, I still think we need to see the effect of Sticky Web on the metagame; 100+ may be more than we think it is. That said, I don't think the Fox makes it.
But Ferrothorn has superior movepool, typing, and ability. I don't think he's weak either, but there are many grass types I'd run over him in OU without batting an eyelash. (Ferrthorn, Venusaur (mega and normal, in some cases), Breloom, Trevenant (If he's OU), Celebi, etc.) I know not all of those cover same niches as Chesnaught, but if you are looking at team synergy and thinking that you need a Grass type, I'd think of all those names before Chesnaught even entered the conversation. I think he's interesting, but, somewhat like Delphox, is too outclassed to be viable.
There are a few significant advantages that Chesnaught has on Ferrothorn, nothing massive, but enough to provide his on niche. He has fighting stab and decent attack, making him a pretty effective tank rather than a wall. He gets Spiky Shield and when combined with Leech Seed provides a lot recovery and residual damage to opponents. But probably most importantly is that he now has a dark resist over Ferrothorn. Also Bulletproof gives some specific but very important immunities he can take advantage of. Grass/Fighting has some shit weaknesses, but the resistances it has are all very useful, and are some of the most common physical attacking types (Rock, Ground, Dark) and even with his below average special defense can take special attacks from his other resists (water, electric, grass) also he isn't weak to fighting. These are minor differences individually, but add up to make Chesnaught and Ferrothorn very different pokemon
Monte Cristo
Banned deucer.
252 SpA Life Orb Delphox Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Cresselia: 185-218 (41.66 - 49.09%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Victini Blue Flare vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Cresselia: 183-216 (41.21 - 48.64%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
(and by the way, never make a delphox calculation unless it has 114 SpA, I can really tell, I've calced delphox's capabilities quite a bit over the past week)
making fabricated calculations is nothing but shameful and deceptive, so I suggest you don't do that to try and win an argument, thanks
As I said, I really don't want to take part in this discussion as there is no joy in me for that, as I usually discuss for the fun of discovering how other people look at certain subjects, but a baist always ruins that fun, oh well
Fire Blast has lower BP this gen. Nice try :) I did give Delphox 114 obviously but I did give FB slightly lower power than I should have because I mistyped 110 BP. Here are those calcs again:
252 SpA Life Orb Delphox Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Cresselia: 169-200 (38.06 - 45.04%)
252 SpA Life Orb Victini Blue Flare vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Cresselia: 183-216 (41.21 - 48.64%)
Still does more, again, please do your research before talking shit.
BTW it's bias not biast
Monte Cristo
Banned deucer.
I calced with base 110 for fire blast, I'm not that dumb, I'm still in doubt of your calcs, whatever
No you didn't your calc was an exact match with 120 Base Power lol
If you would care to calc this correctly, you would see that I'm right.
Delphox won't be OU, and any denial of this is to ignore the facts.
In fifth gen. The type charts changed. Bug and Fighting gained a resistance (and a ghost-type buff isn't going to help) and psychic didn't. The layout is going to change completely. Like, look at fighting. Fighting was the worst type in first gen. Second gen it gained two key advantages and a resistance. But it's main counter (psychic) also got heavily nerfed. Meaning it became more difficult to counter as well. Fighting is still a really solid offensive type, and bug is pretty good too, but they're not as powerful as they used to be. There's also poison types to take into account. We'll see if being one of the few things good against fairy improves their usage, which means powerful STAB psychic attacks could be really useful.
Having said all that, I think Volcarona certainly is superior to Delphox as a straight-up sweeper mostly because of quiver dance and superior bulk and defensive typing, but Delphox has it's own ability, superior speed, and psychic has it's advantages now. We need to see what threats pop up, and what the full extent of Delphox's movepool is before saying it's UU just because of a bad feeling.
That's preposterous. All this talk of "I don't see this being OU" is just silly. There is no metagame yet. And to ignore the advantages Delphox has over Volcarona, Infernape and Victini is just presumptious.
Last edited:
If special Victini were to lose power on its main stab move, lose an insane amount of its movepool, lose its versatility, lose its bulk, and only gain enough speed to outspeed lando and Thundurus-T, would it be OU in a more competitive gen? That's Delphox. It's preposterous not to think it wouldn't be OU and even if it did make the cut by some miracle, it would get outclassed by the lower tier Victini. This isn't a "bad feeling" this is make a very apt comparison to a very similar poke that, although generally superior, wasn't even in OU this gen.
Saying that it gets Calm Mind which automatically should make it OU is also absurd. Delphox doesn't have the power or the bulk to get many opportunities to set up and gets easily checked by the plethora of things faster than it which can OHKO it without much of a hassle.
Last edited:
- Status