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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter TPP
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Now obviously some Pokémon’s are so strong they’ll be banned in any Tera or non Tera meta
but if Tera were restricted, and all Tera types were disclosed at team previews…
Then these would probably be worth suspecting:
- dolphin man: you’ll be able to know if your among us is actually able to check it or not (if it’s a grass resist Tera), or if you’re going to have to keep the pressure on it all game (water Tera)
- espathra: it’s much easier to deal with it when you know if it’s relying on fighting or fire type Tera blast, or whether it’s the standard fairy
- annihilape: it’s strong, but there’s lots of hard hitters that out speed it, and you’ll know if you can or not based on its chosen Tera type
but if Tera were restricted, and all Tera types were disclosed at team previews…
Then these would probably be worth suspecting:
- dolphin man: you’ll be able to know if your among us is actually able to check it or not (if it’s a grass resist Tera), or if you’re going to have to keep the pressure on it all game (water Tera)
- espathra: it’s much easier to deal with it when you know if it’s relying on fighting or fire type Tera blast, or whether it’s the standard fairy
- annihilape: it’s strong, but there’s lots of hard hitters that out speed it, and you’ll know if you can or not based on its chosen Tera type
Ape bullies stall hard even without tera.
Here's how I'm interpreting the move relearner scenario:
1. You have a lv.60 Weavile in Scarlet, you teach it Ice Spinner (TM), but you then delete it for Icicle Crash. Its moves are: Ice Shard, Icicle Crash, Swords Dance, Night Slash
2. You send it to HOME, then to Sword.
3. Its moves get reset to their Sword level-up set: Night Slash, Screech, Nasty Plot, Fling. You're prompted if you want to replace those with any of its level up moves, you replace NP with Ice Shard, Screech with Assurance.
4. You have a Night Slash, Ice Shard, Assurance, Fling Weavile in Sword.
5. You replace Fling for Triple Axel
6. You send it to HOME, then to Scarlet again.
7. Its moves get replaced by standard level-up again (Night Slash, Screech, Nasty Plot, Fling), but you're offered to relearn Ice Spinner (since taught TM moves are in their relearn sets in G9)
8. You do, play a bit, send it back to HOME and then to Scarlet.
9. Moves are wiped again to same level-up set, but now Triple Axel can be relearned (for Sword only).
I sincerely doubt you'll be able to transfer in... transfer moves into SV. HOME would need to do a double check for legality status for tourneys/Battle Stadium and whatnot which is just extra work that benefits no one but nerds who collect transfer moves. At best this is a QOL improvement cutting out the Battle Tower wiper, Pokémon Center relearner (SS) or Pastoria move relearner (BDSP) or Zisu's move shop (PLA) middlemen and not force you to respend in-game resources to re-unlock these moves like it's currently doing.
Hopefully the standard SS move relearn sets include those that came from Bank (e.g. Knock Off Weavile) if they had those originally but I could see it go either way and just force the deletion if they were brought into G9 and then back.
I issue caution to whomever is dreaming of transfer moves in SV because I truly doubt it. But I'd be happy to be proven wrong.
1. You have a lv.60 Weavile in Scarlet, you teach it Ice Spinner (TM), but you then delete it for Icicle Crash. Its moves are: Ice Shard, Icicle Crash, Swords Dance, Night Slash
2. You send it to HOME, then to Sword.
3. Its moves get reset to their Sword level-up set: Night Slash, Screech, Nasty Plot, Fling. You're prompted if you want to replace those with any of its level up moves, you replace NP with Ice Shard, Screech with Assurance.
4. You have a Night Slash, Ice Shard, Assurance, Fling Weavile in Sword.
5. You replace Fling for Triple Axel
6. You send it to HOME, then to Scarlet again.
7. Its moves get replaced by standard level-up again (Night Slash, Screech, Nasty Plot, Fling), but you're offered to relearn Ice Spinner (since taught TM moves are in their relearn sets in G9)
8. You do, play a bit, send it back to HOME and then to Scarlet.
9. Moves are wiped again to same level-up set, but now Triple Axel can be relearned (for Sword only).
I sincerely doubt you'll be able to transfer in... transfer moves into SV. HOME would need to do a double check for legality status for tourneys/Battle Stadium and whatnot which is just extra work that benefits no one but nerds who collect transfer moves. At best this is a QOL improvement cutting out the Battle Tower wiper, Pokémon Center relearner (SS) or Pastoria move relearner (BDSP) or Zisu's move shop (PLA) middlemen and not force you to respend in-game resources to re-unlock these moves like it's currently doing.
Hopefully the standard SS move relearn sets include those that came from Bank (e.g. Knock Off Weavile) if they had those originally but I could see it go either way and just force the deletion if they were brought into G9 and then back.
I issue caution to whomever is dreaming of transfer moves in SV because I truly doubt it. But I'd be happy to be proven wrong.
luckie
unluckiest player
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Fini is coming back? Or any of the Tapus.
I’m honestly surprised people keep overlooking chien pao, it’s ridiculously fast and hits very hard.
with more highly viable ice weak Pokémon entering the meta, it’s super unlikely it’ll be able to stay in OU. Banded Tera dark crunch is still ridiculous as well.
Then you also have a defensive Tera + second swords dance option to get a +4 sweeper when your check comes in on its first swords dance.
Tera water tusk the GOAT check until you get surprised by a Tera ghost immune to your body press, or Tera flying immune to your EQ.
with more highly viable ice weak Pokémon entering the meta, it’s super unlikely it’ll be able to stay in OU. Banded Tera dark crunch is still ridiculous as well.
Then you also have a defensive Tera + second swords dance option to get a +4 sweeper when your check comes in on its first swords dance.
Tera water tusk the GOAT check until you get surprised by a Tera ghost immune to your body press, or Tera flying immune to your EQ.
Just want to point out how crazy Tera Ice Regieleki will be.
252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Ice Regieleki Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clodsire: 236-278 (50.8 - 59.9%) -- 83.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tera Ice Regieleki Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clodsire: 258-306 (55.6 - 65.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Ice Regieleki Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clodsire: 236-278 (50.8 - 59.9%) -- 83.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tera Ice Regieleki Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clodsire: 258-306 (55.6 - 65.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
oof i didn't see that. Just more points in favor of keeping cheems-pao banned
Exactly how I interpreted it, I hope this is the way it works secretly
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My opinons:
Ape: Keep it banned, thing just obliterates fat teams like nothing under sub sets
Basculegion and Houndstone: OU, since last respects is probably getting yeeted since even basculin is too op with it
Chi Yu: Lock him in ubers jail, Blunder called it cheese-yu for a reason.
Chien Pao: OU maybe since we have offensive counterplay to keep it in line.
Espathra: Maybe if tera get a full ban, but i'm skeptical on it being healthy
Flutter Mane: probably one of the most powerful pokemon to ever grace ou, keep this thing in ubers
Iron Bundle: again, also probably one of the most powerful pokemon to ever grace ou, keep this thing in ubers
Landorus I: Keep this thing in ubers jail, Very Blatantly ubers
Magearna: WE DO NOT NEED A REPEAT OF GEN 8/7 MAG TERRORIZING OU PLEASE KEEP IT LOCKED IN UBERS JAIL PLEASE
Palafin: Ban, a literal legendary in the skin of a dolphin. Bulk up + Jet punch still cancer
Regieleki: OU (test it)
Spectrier: Keep it banned (Don't need an op snowballing ghost)
Urshifu SS: No keep it in ubers.
Zamazenta Hero: OU probably.
Zamazenta Crowned: Don't know might be too fat wth wish support
Extra ubers newcomer prediction
Urshifu RS: Will definitely initially be OU, but could actually very well be too strong for OU this gen, taunt + sd completely ruins bulkier teams and fatter mons just like its brother single strike did last gen, so I predict ubers for the water bear this gen, since it can now destroy all semblance of bulky teams like single strike did.
Ape: Keep it banned, thing just obliterates fat teams like nothing under sub sets
Basculegion and Houndstone: OU, since last respects is probably getting yeeted since even basculin is too op with it
Chi Yu: Lock him in ubers jail, Blunder called it cheese-yu for a reason.
Chien Pao: OU maybe since we have offensive counterplay to keep it in line.
Espathra: Maybe if tera get a full ban, but i'm skeptical on it being healthy
Flutter Mane: probably one of the most powerful pokemon to ever grace ou, keep this thing in ubers
Iron Bundle: again, also probably one of the most powerful pokemon to ever grace ou, keep this thing in ubers
Landorus I: Keep this thing in ubers jail, Very Blatantly ubers
Magearna: WE DO NOT NEED A REPEAT OF GEN 8/7 MAG TERRORIZING OU PLEASE KEEP IT LOCKED IN UBERS JAIL PLEASE
Palafin: Ban, a literal legendary in the skin of a dolphin. Bulk up + Jet punch still cancer
Regieleki: OU (test it)
Spectrier: Keep it banned (Don't need an op snowballing ghost)
Urshifu SS: No keep it in ubers.
Zamazenta Hero: OU probably.
Zamazenta Crowned: Don't know might be too fat wth wish support
Extra ubers newcomer prediction
Urshifu RS: Will definitely initially be OU, but could actually very well be too strong for OU this gen, taunt + sd completely ruins bulkier teams and fatter mons just like its brother single strike did last gen, so I predict ubers for the water bear this gen, since it can now destroy all semblance of bulky teams like single strike did.
I don't get why we're against unbanning Giratina. Every set gets annihilated in some way by the tier's undisputed king, Glaceon:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Glaceon Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina: 240-284 (47.6 - 56.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, 3 layers of Spikes, sandstorm damage, Leftovers recovery, Leech Seed damage, poison damage, and Salt Cure
252+ SpA Choice Specs Glaceon Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina: 240-284 (47.6 - 56.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, 3 layers of Spikes, sandstorm damage, Leftovers recovery, Leech Seed damage, poison damage, and Salt Cure
It's palafin, it'll do what it does best.
Jet Punch the metagame till everybody cries and the only sweeper that can beat this are healthy dragon types (and technically any other type that resists water with good natural bulk that are still healthy, and ig h-gant)
Except this doesn't make sense because it makes the point of a move learner/relearner pointless. If they wanted mons to operate based on learn sets for individual games, they'd simply have it work like it did between the gen8 games just updated for gen9 included. A move learner/relearner doesn't really have a purpose this way. Also, the move relearning is done through HOME, not separately in games. So that sort of works against your idea.
Why would you want it the way they theorized it to work.
Alright boys, hot take time, I have had way more problems with Chien Pao than Chi-Yu, and while I do believe both are broken, I have always found ways to somehow not lose it instantly, Chien Pao just fucks you over and that's it
To say that Chien pao is manageable with no tera, respectfully, you guys are smoking radioactive waste at this point
faster than everything except dragapult (that loses to it anyway) double priority, more dps than a fucking minigun, spammable stabs, sd, fuck, even haze and recover can be used just to troll.
>but the hecking tusk
You guys have a cult for making every single thing a tusk lure, there's no difference here, besides, you can just fish for defense drops and flinches
At least Chi-Yu was barely checkable with special walls (not under sun) Chien Pao fucking rolls a D7 and 3 shots donzo with no tera and cb
If chien pao gets unbanned, I want every single one of you to run sd with webs, try it, if you still believe that chien pao is okay then I seriously don't know what to tell you, except that you're wrong
To say that Chien pao is manageable with no tera, respectfully, you guys are smoking radioactive waste at this point
faster than everything except dragapult (that loses to it anyway) double priority, more dps than a fucking minigun, spammable stabs, sd, fuck, even haze and recover can be used just to troll.
>but the hecking tusk
You guys have a cult for making every single thing a tusk lure, there's no difference here, besides, you can just fish for defense drops and flinches
At least Chi-Yu was barely checkable with special walls (not under sun) Chien Pao fucking rolls a D7 and 3 shots donzo with no tera and cb
If chien pao gets unbanned, I want every single one of you to run sd with webs, try it, if you still believe that chien pao is okay then I seriously don't know what to tell you, except that you're wrong
Hot take, I think Tornadus is mid now if it loses gen 7 moves. Losing Knock Off & Defog are insane blows to its utility & will give it a much harder time contributing reliable and meaningful progress vs the opponent's team. Its still fast, but relying on Hurri-miss somewhat undercuts that advantage when damaging the opponent is always a roll. Bleakwind Blight is a decent upgrade from Hurricane imo since its technically stronger on average (80 BP on BB vs 77 on Hurricane) but its still not ideal. Rocky Helmet + Regen is still valuable utility & I think it'll be an OK NP sweeper w/ Tera, but I don't think it will be the same reliable Pokemon it was last gen.
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some poor takes here
Eh. Even in the event it lost utility like defog/knock (unlikely given what we know), it would still be a nice defensive pivot for checking stuff that is big in the meta. Rocky Helmet if you want an alternative. and NP sets would be great offensive options. Don't underestimate what the mon is capable of. A simple U-turn/bleakwind/heat wave/focus blast set for pivoting would be good
The "point" of the mechanic as described is so that you don't need to spend extra resources on getting a move you already taught the Pokémon in a previous game.
For instance, Rotom can learn Nasty Plot by TR in SwSh, by TM in BDSP and again by TM in SV, but all three of these require consumable resources since TRs in SwSh and TMs in BDSP and SV are all single-use.
The way HOME currently works with transfers between SwSh, BDSP and Legends, moves learned in each game are completely independent.
For instance, if you taught Nasty Plot to your Rotom in SwSh, it would still be able to get it back for free every time you sent it to SwSh, but if you sent it to BDSP, it would be as if it had never learned Nasty Plot; you would need to spend another Plot TM to give it the move in BDSP.
If nothing changed in SV, you would then need a third Plot TM to give it the move again, even though you've taught it Nasty Plot twice already; it would just be annoying if you kept having to do this over and over again.
The purpose of the new feature is to recognize when a Pokémon has already learned a move in a previous game and account for that, provided it's a move that's still intended to be in the Pokémon's toolkit.
Like: "you already spent a Plot TM on Rotom in BDSP? Perfect, let's make a note of that - it can learn that in SV as well, so we'll make it more convenient to keep that." It's nothing more than a bit of QOL to address the inconvenience that came with the already-established movepool resets on transfer.
More generally:
It's worth bearing in mind that transfer moves haven't been allowed in official competitive formats since Gen VI. As far as the official games are concerned, the only meaningful loss from cutting them off like BDSP and Legends already did was the inconvenience of having to spend resources on teaching the same move over and over when it was going to be allowed anyway. That's the issue this update is meant to address; of course they're not going to make new features to make the very same moves they chose to disallow more accessible to their players...
I miss Scald and Toxic. I miss them a lot more than the average person (uh, certainly more than most of the people I've seen in this thread... seems like wanting them back is not the most popular opinion, huh?). I would bring them back in a heartbeat if it were up to me - I have very strong personal preferences about what moves should and shouldn't be on the TM list, and I don't always agree with the changes that are made in a given game.
But the fact is that Game Freak very obviously took them away because they didn't agree with you or me on that - they wanted to remove or limit their distribution. So like, why do so many people think they're going to start making new features to help you add them to your Pokémon? Right after establishing that they didn't want those Pokémon learning these moves any more??
Fundamentally, move distribution changes are balance changes. They're buffs and nerfs, whether to individual Pokémon or on a metagame-wide level if a lot of Pokémon lose a move at the same time.
What you're asking, then, is for them to make an intentional game balance change and... then say "oh, but we're only nerfing this for our new players; if you were already using the thing before we nerfed it, you're exempt from the rules and can go on using it while no one else is allowed." Why do so many people think that's how it's supposed to work?
Again, I may not like the specific balance changes that were made, and I may not have made the same choices with singles in mind. I'm not defending this because I'm happy to see these specific moves gone; on my own terms, I will always be rooting for the game-to-game TM list to be revised in a way that brings back the moves I miss again in the future.
But like, expecting legacy moves to be relevant in PvP was always conceptually stupid and it's not at all hard to see why they're taking firmer stances on them lately.
This goes double as they experiment with the loss of the National Dex and outright deleting moves so Pokémon and move availability become more and more distinct from game to game - even more so when we start to throw in games like Legends, where they're nominally "part of the main series" but have a wildly different core set of mechanics and a ton of moves that don't even do the same things. It's not an accident that they started more explicitly limiting transfer moves right when they started making these game-to-game shifts more significant.
If Urshifu-Dark isn't banned the picosecond Home drops, then I'll have some mildly upset words to say.
The reason it works this way between other games and PLA is because PLA literally has fewer moves, and the lack of an updated legality checker for those different moves they don't normally get in other games. It's not done for convenience sake.
Also not sure why yourye talking matter-of-factly when we don't even have concrete details on how the feature works, or if move resets apply to SV. Because we DONT have any confirmation on that for SV. It happening between BDSP/PLA and when transfered from either to SwSh is a result of what I described above. What you're describing as an idea is an unnecessary feature because it wouldn't need to exist if supposed move resets didn't exist (which leaks suggest they don't).
You just acknowledged they haven't allowed transfer moves in VGC since gen6, despite them being usable for casual play and casual versus. So why are you...
...then acting like these moves being accessable easily for casual play makes an impact on official comp when they were already not going to be legal? It was like this last gen. Transfer moves persisted but couldn't be used casually. There's no reason it wouldn't be the same here. This isn't a balance change because it doesn't affect VGC to begin with. Just casual play.
No one expects legacy moves to be relevant in official formats. But casual pvp is not something they are balancing around and they're not making changes to a casual pvp setting.
Everyone's talking about potential threats, I'm interested, what do you think will FALL OFF in OU after Home drops
Hah, I was about to reply but you said just about everything I was planning to.
People who live and play on sim like most of Smogon don't seem to be cognizant of how annoying some moves are to (re)teach.
Nasty Plot is a perfect example. In SV it requires Spiritomb bits that are rather rare as Spiritomb is an uncommon static encounter so necessitating reteaching it every time you return your Rotom/Gengar/we to SV would be quite the hassle.
Same goes for TR in SS. They're not always available from the shops and, even if they are, they can be quite expensive. Especially if you lack DLC and haven't raided much.
When Landorus T comes we will see more usage of Defiant Kingambit and Ice Spinner on Tusk
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