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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3
- Thread starter TPP
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The thing that makes evaluating Gliscor so hard for me is that I can't tell at this point if it's genuinely THAT overbearing, or just the best Glue an OU has had in several Gens and Gen 9 has conditioned me to expect things to die either in 2 hits or to 3 Hazard switches. It's easily the best Spiker in the tier but I also can't figure out if that's as massive a jump as it sounds considering how dumb Spiking was prior to its arrival for a bevy of reasons.
To be clear I don't think Gliscor is healthy in the Meta we have now, I just wonder how much of this would persist if we had this build going into Gen 10 creep and/or a Meta without Tera.
To be clear I don't think Gliscor is healthy in the Meta we have now, I just wonder how much of this would persist if we had this build going into Gen 10 creep and/or a Meta without Tera.
This is the part that always cracks me up with a post like this for some reason.
After RM, King, and Gholdengo, I'm ok with eliminating Valiant, Moth, Waves, and maybe Tusk to preserve the right to spam BE if HO is still somehow stupidly dominant.
If Gliscor goes first, we will have less impact, Gholdengo just needs to meet old friends like H-Samurott, Ting-Lu and Glimmora. I'm not saying Gliscor isn't a problem, but it's not just Gholdengo that pulls him out, look at Rimbombee being legit just thanks to Mr Coins.
Tera is a sh1t, f@cks revenge kill, but we need the new DLC that will change some concept, about the 19th type, to have a fair view of what to do.
Thanks in advance for any reaction haha.
If Gliscor goes first, we will have less impact, Gholdengo just needs to meet old friends like H-Samurott, Ting-Lu and Glimmora. I'm not saying Gliscor isn't a problem, but it's not just Gholdengo that pulls him out, look at Rimbombee being legit just thanks to Mr Coins.
Tera is a sh1t, f@cks revenge kill, but we need the new DLC that will change some concept, about the 19th type, to have a fair view of what to do.
Thanks in advance for any reaction haha.
No to dog on you even more, I just was looking through your profile just to see where you come from on a teambuilding standpoint. But you clearly don't seem to understand the meta. The reason why its always Gliscor being talked about is its other traits. It offers so much more in a setter like its typing. Its immune to Spikes meaning that it doesn't fear its hazards getting Court Changed. It also has PASSIVE RECOVERY in the form of Poision Heal which cannot be removed by Knock-Off which none of the other mons that you listed have not in the form of Leftovers. Also, Gliscor is able to beat/cripple all the other mons that you listed here. Glimmora is light work for Gliscor, 2 Eqs kill it. Clodsire is too passive and cannot even touch Gliscor while it can threaten Eqs. Quagsire is the only one that forces Gliscor to switch out, having Surf/Ice Beam. But Gliscor can just Toxic on the switch and then your wall just dies. Mew is more of a given, it depends on the set. But for support Mew sets, Gliscor is good vs it (Unless Mew is now teching Ice Beam). And Forretress is far too passive of a mon to ever be used in Gen 9 OU, but its too passive to even touch Gliscor. Not only that, but Gliscor also has good matchups into common mons of the tier. Things like Sneasler, Great Tusk, Kingambit if not setup, Meowscarada and other Gliscor are all stopped by just the standard defensive set. We aren't even getting into mixed defensive sets, Sub sets, SD sets etc...
What I'm saying is that its not just Gliscor having access to all Hazards, its also its unique traits that the metagame really favors such as its Spike immunity, Status immunity, Ability and matchups within the tier.
P.S. I just wanted to help answer your question...
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as busted as i think valiant is, i'd rather we deal with the other mons on the survey that scored above 3. we're not gonna have time for gambit, ghold, gliscor, waterpon and manaphy as it is. tacking on 4 more suspects is beyond overdoing it
I have a question that might not belong here, but
We have monthly usage stats, but do we have tournament usage stats? I'm thinking like Pikalytics or Victory Road types of data. Are those posted publicly somewhere accessible?
I'm curious to know how the overall monthly usage stats line up with a tournament within the same timeframe. I know we're only one month into DLC1, but I'd even be curious to see what the overall usage for September looks like compared to a tournament in September.
If this doesn't belong here, could someone redirect me to the correct forum?
We have monthly usage stats, but do we have tournament usage stats? I'm thinking like Pikalytics or Victory Road types of data. Are those posted publicly somewhere accessible?
I'm curious to know how the overall monthly usage stats line up with a tournament within the same timeframe. I know we're only one month into DLC1, but I'd even be curious to see what the overall usage for September looks like compared to a tournament in September.
If this doesn't belong here, could someone redirect me to the correct forum?
there are smogon threads and spreadsheets with usage statistics for major tournaments. here is the thread for SCL usage stats for instance
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ah, but what you didn't expect was the surprise electro ball
Toxapex shudders in fear upon hearing the name of that move uttered.
Ban Moon, Kingambit and Gholdengo, watch meta unfold until next update. Once update arrives reconsider meta state, bans and do Tera suspect.
Also banning Gholdengo might break Valiant, and suspect to Gliscor is recommended
This is the healthiest and quickest route imo, I also think many that voted remain to Kingambit ban migth have changed their minds due to what the meta has evolved into.
Also banning Gholdengo might break Valiant, and suspect to Gliscor is recommended
This is the healthiest and quickest route imo, I also think many that voted remain to Kingambit ban migth have changed their minds due to what the meta has evolved into.
i suggest we wait longer to start the tera suspect this time. last time, the meta was in an extremely unbalanced state during the tera suspect, and it's almost a certainty that it affected the outcome—a trained monkey could've gotten reqs with a chi-yu sun team, and as we all know, trained monkeys are not particularly well-informed on balance or meta knowledge. unless the 19th tera type completely breaks the mechanic, the tera suspect should happen in march at the earliest. no matter what your views on tera are, whether you sleep surrounded by tera crystal plushes or fly into a frothing rage upon even seeing the letter "t", we should all be supporting the creation of the most balanced possible environment for a tera test
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well said. i should also bring up the fact that most of the really big abusers of tera (espathra, annihilape, volcarona, baxcalibur, regieleki) are currently banned which makes me less concerned about action on the mechanic. now the only particularly notable abusers we have left are roaring moon, who is being suspected, and kingambit, who still has players clamoring for a retest/QB. all in alll i feel that some of the issues people have with it are largely exemplified by the two pokemon i mentioned (plus manaphy but i find it less of a problem with ogerpon around). not to mention the meta as of now has other, much more pressing issues at hand that should be acted on before tera
Remember what company we're talking about here. Knowing Game Freak I'm half expecting something like resist all types+ SE damage on tera'd pokemon.
quickban tera and be done with it
no community input needed. this place is already the fiefdom of the unelected council and for some reason you all choose to be their serfs and buy in to the idea that you have free will and then cry like you're victims of circumstance when these "tiering challenges" repeat every single DLC. why the heck is there so much bureaucracy on a fan site?
it's full circus mode that you ever have to think twice about clicking a fighting move vs kingambit
like...4x weakness to 2x resist is an 8x damage reduction. That's a far cry from Chople Berry and is disturbingly broken
no community input needed. this place is already the fiefdom of the unelected council and for some reason you all choose to be their serfs and buy in to the idea that you have free will and then cry like you're victims of circumstance when these "tiering challenges" repeat every single DLC. why the heck is there so much bureaucracy on a fan site?
it's full circus mode that you ever have to think twice about clicking a fighting move vs kingambit
like...4x weakness to 2x resist is an 8x damage reduction. That's a far cry from Chople Berry and is disturbingly broken
putting aside my initial reaction of "what the fuck is this take", i don't think the council would ban tera if it came down to their vote
…although from what i recall, finch gave a complete non-answer about his opinions on tera when the last tera thread was up, so i actually have no idea what they'd vote
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Bro even if we did assume the OU council were tyrannical maniacs doing whatever they want with no input, wouldn't the point of the fan site being "too bureaucratic" disprove that? What is there to be bureaucratic about if they can just decide everything themselves as they see fit? Youre like contradicting your own point as your making it its just mindless bellyaching.
FYI - the OU Council is the only thing right with Gen 9.
Tera, DLC, and all of the mons introduced are the shitshow. The fact that the Council has stomached all of our irrelevant bellyaching shows that they are probably the only good thing about this entire generation of pokemon.
So once again, I'll say it: Thank you, OU Council, for trying your utmost to make this generation worth playing. Thank you for taking your time and being patient and methodical in the face of rampant, condescending, demanding, and even outright ludicrous outcries and outbursts.
You have been given unrealistic expectations to balance and maintain the state of organized play for a silly, cute video game that has brought all of us together in some way.
You have watched and discussed amongst one another about what to do, the state of the meta, and the overall changes that Pokemon has seen in only the past few years.
Thank you. Thank you forever and always for everything you do. No matter what decisions you do and don't make, thank you for making them. Thank you for being the group to help organize, coordinate, and moderate this forum, and for your help educating the less insightful.
Even when I'm at my most toxic, bitter, or salty, I realize that the end of the day you are people, too.
Take care, be well, and I hope you all enjoy your next meal at whatever time it might be wherever you are. I hope you enjoy a deep breath, a long nap, and your favorite way to wind down and relax some time soon.
I have very strong opinions on a lot of the metagame. I may dissent and disagree with how things are run sometimes, but I will never stop appreciating everything you do for everyone here.
OU council is a bunch of loons for not quickbanning torterra that mfer 6-0s stall if you don't tera dozo smh
Stupid authoritarian OU council and their community survey on the health of the format and what might be the primary causes and potential fixes followed by a suspect test (which is open to anyone who meets an objective requirement)
I have to wonder if tera would be as divisive if last gen's gimmick hadn't been so obviously broken. Did the ban of dynamax set an expectation going forward? Not saying it was wrong to ban dynamax or that it's right to ban tera, but I wonder if people would be thinking more along the lines of "this is just how Gen 9 is" had the precedent not been set.
Perhaps
But then people also remember with what happened with gen 5 and the steps taken to ensure weather remained legal and the headaches that created
To offset any metagame discussion right now, here's a blazing hot take of mine:
Forretress @ Leftovers / Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Sturdy
Tera Type: ???
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Ice Spinner
- Body Press
- Stealth Rock
- Spikes / Rapid Spin
Ok now let's set thependulum scale. Forretress is a pokemon with Bug-Steel typing and a statline of 75/90/140/60/60/40. It's not slow, but it's nowhere near fast either. Defensively speaking, Forretress is great. It resists a ton of things, and the weaknesses of Steel and Bug are offset by each other. It also has almost the same physical bulk as Orthworm, hell, almost the same STATS as Orthworm, so make what you will of that. "Orthworm had Shed Tail tho" yea well Forretress has surprise factor because NO ONE USES IT. Steel typing also provides it with an immunity to sand and poison damage. That is HUGE considering the prevalence of Gliscor in this tier. Not only that, but it doesn't take that much from Gliscor and Great Tusk and slowly but surely chips with Ice Spinner. Forretress can literally 1v1 both Gliscor and Great Tusk, as well as get hazards up. It is however x4 weak to Fire -- which isn't great considering terastallization is always an option. So why isn't it used? Sure Gliscor has Knock Off and is probably still better, but Forretress has a place in this metagame. It's super weak to Fire, but that's its only weakness. Kingambit is 4x weak to Fighting. Gliscor is 4x weak to Ice. Roaring Moon was 4x weak to Fairy (notice the was part there). You think it's not strong? It has 5 less attack than Gliscor and look at Gliscor using Swords Dance. "Gliscor has a natural healing source even if it's item is removed" ok sure Gliscor might be better, Great Tusk might be more widely used, Corviknight might shit on it, and it can't do anything to Gholdengo with this set. Yea all of that's true, but here's what Forretress can do:
- Depending on the given move, it can beat Kingambit, Iron Valiant, Gliscor, Great Tusk, and possibly (but very slim) beat Corviknight in a 1v1 situation
- Like Gliscor, it has the amazing upsides of all 3 hazards and additionally Rapid Spin -- so its utility is very recognizable
- It's physical bulk is 70/140. I'm almost certain that's bulky for the metagame considering its only weakness is Fire -- which is a special type of move most of the time
- Sturdy guarantees that a non Mold Breaker or Taunt user will allow it to use Rapid Spin or set some kind of hazards
The downsides of Forretress:
- It crumples to any Fire move which given terastallization and sun teams makes it fairly useless more often than it could be
- Leftovers is its only form of healing (although honestly, just run some calcs and you'll see Leftovers is more of a win more scenario than practical)
- It lacks the ability to effectively hit Gholdengo or Corviknight -- 2 of the most popular hazard pokemon
- It has very lackluster special bulk so even just a Manaphy Scald or an Iron Valiant Thunderbolt will put a good dent in its HP
- It relies on boosted hits or super effective damage to hit things in the metagame. It's power is otherwise underwhelming
- Although it is rather... specific, nonetheless, it takes extra damage from Garganacl's Salt Cure -- and Garganacl is a decent metagame pick
Throughout its life, Forrtress has been a mostly UU and early gens OU lifer. It's not spectacular. It's just another Rapid Spin user that has hazards. And with the intense powercreep of this generations OU, It's not hard to see why it's not used. But so far, I feel like the metagame is in a position where Forrtress can thrive. It's a (sort of) offensive bulky hazard setter and remover so that's of course always valuable. And I think you all should give it a try. Thank you for reading this far. And with that, I say "Don't go anywhere folks. We'll be right back to the show after these messages" :)
Forretress @ Leftovers / Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Sturdy
Tera Type: ???
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Ice Spinner
- Body Press
- Stealth Rock
- Spikes / Rapid Spin
Ok now let's set the
- Depending on the given move, it can beat Kingambit, Iron Valiant, Gliscor, Great Tusk, and possibly (but very slim) beat Corviknight in a 1v1 situation
- Like Gliscor, it has the amazing upsides of all 3 hazards and additionally Rapid Spin -- so its utility is very recognizable
- It's physical bulk is 70/140. I'm almost certain that's bulky for the metagame considering its only weakness is Fire -- which is a special type of move most of the time
- Sturdy guarantees that a non Mold Breaker or Taunt user will allow it to use Rapid Spin or set some kind of hazards
The downsides of Forretress:
- It crumples to any Fire move which given terastallization and sun teams makes it fairly useless more often than it could be
- Leftovers is its only form of healing (although honestly, just run some calcs and you'll see Leftovers is more of a win more scenario than practical)
- It lacks the ability to effectively hit Gholdengo or Corviknight -- 2 of the most popular hazard pokemon
- It has very lackluster special bulk so even just a Manaphy Scald or an Iron Valiant Thunderbolt will put a good dent in its HP
- It relies on boosted hits or super effective damage to hit things in the metagame. It's power is otherwise underwhelming
- Although it is rather... specific, nonetheless, it takes extra damage from Garganacl's Salt Cure -- and Garganacl is a decent metagame pick
Throughout its life, Forrtress has been a mostly UU and early gens OU lifer. It's not spectacular. It's just another Rapid Spin user that has hazards. And with the intense powercreep of this generations OU, It's not hard to see why it's not used. But so far, I feel like the metagame is in a position where Forrtress can thrive. It's a (sort of) offensive bulky hazard setter and remover so that's of course always valuable. And I think you all should give it a try. Thank you for reading this far. And with that, I say "Don't go anywhere folks. We'll be right back to the show after these messages" :)
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>Base 40 speed
Forretress is a pokemon with Bug-Steel typing and a statline of 75/90/140/60/60/40. It's not slow, but it's nowhere near fast either.
>not slow
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