Metagame SM Monotype Metagame Discussion

Status
Not open for further replies.

Moosical

big yikes
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
Wait Torkool, are you saying that using Z mirror move not only gives you +2 attack, but also makes mirror move's attack a Z-move? I considered running Z-mirror move but only for the +2 attack. It didn't seem too worth it beyond that. I had no idea it z-attacked AFTER getting +2, that is awesome!
Yes, I tested it in game just now as well, and it's an intended mechanic. It feels a bit un-competitive, to me, at least. It has the potential to give you a free KO on something you otherwise wouldn't be able to kill (like any other z-attack) but you also get +2 attack. Even moves used against you that aren't very effective on your opponent, still do a massive amount of damage.

+2 252 Atk Tapu Koko Corkscrew Crash (175 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross-Mega: 122-144 (40.5 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Edit: The same goes for z-me first, etc
 
Last edited:

FellFromtheSky

and started walking.
is a Top Artist Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Top Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
I posted before that I had been trying out this set on a TR Fairy team and that I was finding it to be very effective. Well, I've tested it more and it seems to be very effective indeed. The only thing about it I've changed has been Volt Switch, which was nice, but inferior (I've found) to the coverage Aura Sphere or Focus Blast provides. I've coupled this Magearna set with a Diancie running TR/SR/Diamond Storm/Explosion, who easily sets up TR and typically pushes something into KO range for Magearna to nab a Soul-Heart boost. This Magearna also seems to pair well with Ninetales-A, as Aurora Veil is super helpful if Magearna needs to set up TR itself. This set is definitely the best use of a Z-Crystal I've found (at least in my experience). I'm looking to experiment a bit more with the set now. I've tried Steelium Z instead of Fairium Z and found it to be a far inferior option, but I am curious to see if Fightium Z and Focus Blast/Aura Sphere might be a good option. That aside, While testing the set, I saved a bunch of replays demonstrating its effectiveness in various matchups:
 

zukoo

Banned deucer.
So I'm new to monotype, I'm an ou player, and i thought id showcase a set which has been working pretty nicely for me on fairy.

Tapu Bulu @ Leftovers
Ability: Grassy Surge
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Substitute
- Bulk Up
- Leech Seed
- Horn Leech

This set is incredibly good, allowing tapu bulu to beat water and electric teams on its own, provided on water you remove the omnipresent pelipper which is seeing a lot of usage as a rain setter. It can 1v1 zapdos (see replays below) and proceed to just win versus electric. If you accumulate enough boosts even things that resist horn leech won't want to take one, as grassy terrain is incredibly helpful in boosting the power of horn leech. Not only that but it allows you to recover 12 percent per turn in tandem with leftovers and if you add leech seed into the mix you can recover almost a sub's worth of health in one turn. I feel like tapu bulu as a whole has a lot of potential and could run a variety of sets this gen and its something fun I've used so far in one of my first two teams I've made.

Ive only got one good replay and its this one http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-490772306 it shows me 1v1ing a zapdos and proceeding to win versus elec
 
Good day monotype and council

In my desperation, I have decided to give this forums thing one more go and post about mega metagross. But 1 True Lycan and Entei have written up posts that cover my points. Even better than what I would have written up.

So instead of writing the same reasoning’s up, I have come here to beg.

The holidays are around the corner, and I would like to beg the council to please ban mega metagross. Some of us can neither build nor play with this fast, fat and powerful monster running around on ladder and in roomtours.

I have tried and it really hurts playing around it. If you don’t have a counter to force megagross out, you have to sac a mon first, then bring in your counter. Even at that, your “counter” isn’t guaranteed to kill it, as it could just simply switch out to good support on psy/steel or roll the dice on getting a meteor mash boost.

Also getting it's speed boost instantly this gen means it can just instantly click ice punch vs Lando-I without worrying about rock polish or you switching out to a check. It can also remain on full health vs mons less than 110 base speed, which makes revenge killing it harder.

I’ve put together a list of common scarfed offensive mons that should ideally be able to stop mega metagross

252 SpA Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Metagross-Mega: 242-288 (80.3 - 95.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross-Mega: 248-294 (82.3 - 97.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Togekiss Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Metagross-Mega: 210-248 (69.7 - 82.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross-Mega: 230-272 (76.4 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Infernape Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross-Mega: 236-278 (78.4 - 92.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Infernape Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Metagross-Mega: 284-336 (94.3 - 111.6%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

(added infernape because i couldn't think of a fast mon on fighting that threatens mega metagross. Which is ridiculous tbh)

252 SpA Sheer Force Nidoking Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Metagross-Mega: 266-314 (88.3 - 104.3%) -- 25% chance to OHKO


^ Most of those are super-effective and STAB boosted, and they barely kill it. Imagine how other types manage with non boosted scarfers.

Please have a heart and ban this mon.
 
Good day monotype and council

In my desperation, I have decided to give this forums thing one more go and post about mega metagross. But 1 True Lycan and Entei have written up posts that cover my points. Even better than what I would have written up.

So instead of writing the same reasoning’s up, I have come here to beg.

The holidays are around the corner, and I would like to beg the council to please ban mega metagross. Some of us can neither build nor play with this fast, fat and powerful monster running around on ladder and in roomtours.

I have tried and it really hurts playing around it. If you don’t have a counter to force megagross out, you have to sac a mon first, then bring in your counter. Even at that, your “counter” isn’t guaranteed to kill it, as it could just simply switch out to good support on psy/steel or roll the dice on getting a meteor mash boost.

Also getting it's speed boost instantly this gen means it can just instantly click ice punch vs Lando-I without worrying about rock polish or you switching out to a check. It can also remain on full health vs mons less than 110 base speed, which makes revenge killing it harder.

I’ve put together a list of common scarfed offensive mons that should ideally be able to stop mega metagross

252 SpA Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Metagross-Mega: 242-288 (80.3 - 95.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross-Mega: 248-294 (82.3 - 97.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Togekiss Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Metagross-Mega: 210-248 (69.7 - 82.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross-Mega: 230-272 (76.4 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Infernape Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross-Mega: 236-278 (78.4 - 92.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Infernape Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Metagross-Mega: 284-336 (94.3 - 111.6%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

(added infernape because i couldn't think of a fast mon on fighting that threatens mega metagross. Which is ridiculous tbh)

252 SpA Sheer Force Nidoking Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Metagross-Mega: 266-314 (88.3 - 104.3%) -- 25% chance to OHKO


^ Most of those are super-effective and STAB boosted, and they barely kill it. Imagine how other types manage with non boosted scarfers.

Please have a heart and ban this mon.

I think you are overestimating Mega Metagross. I personally do not like it, but there are ways to handle it. Poison worried about a Zen Headbutt? Why? It has Drapion which is immune to it and neutral to Fighting and Steel as well. Drapion should be worried about an EQ, but then Poison has Crobat. Mega Metagross does not break types honestly. One just has to be smart in getting rid of it. Also, why do you have to use a scarf to counter Mega Meta anyway? I don't. As a grass main, I just run Gourgeist for it, and it happily tanks anything that it sends my way, and yes, that includes a potential Ice Punch (which only does approximately 40-45% depending on the roll). At that point, I can go for a Will-o-Wisp (being weary of a Heatran on steel or maybe an Espeon on Psychic), or a leech seed to scout a switch into said Heatran.

As for Kartana, well, I find Mega Metagross to be worse than it. With a 109 Base Speed, it comes short of a lot of Pokemon, so I find Scarf is common on it. At that point, the same issue as with Mega Metagross comes up. At least Kartana has limited coverage, so it isn't all that hard to find a Pokemon that can tank a +1 hit. Once you tank a hit, or outspeed with a 110 Scarf, or survive via a Sash, just use a Special move to kill it. Dragon is neutral or resistant to all of Kartana's moves, as is Flying. Water is worried about Kartana and it's Leaf Blade? Not really. Water has some options for tanking hits. Toxapex can tank a hit, as can Gyarados (pre mega). My personal favorite that I discovered when looking into this was Volcanion.

+1 252 Atk Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Volcanion: 243-286 (80.4 - 94.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO VS.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kartana: 2328-2740 (898.8 - 1057.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Can I say overkill? Also, Volcanion had no defense investment (the 4 EV's in HP was simply what the standard set had). A bulkier set can tank it even better, such as a standard Specs Tank EV Spread.

+1 252 Atk Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Volcanion: 241-285 (66.2 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Ice is worried about Kartana as well? Only if it is a Life Orb set maybe. A Scarf or Band set does not scare Ice so much. Locked into Smart Strike? Alolan Sandslash can tank a hit as can Avalugg. Lapras can even KO it back.

+1 252 Atk Kartana Smart Strike vs. 120 HP / 0 Def Lapras: 265-313 (61.4 - 72.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Lapras Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kartana: 291-343 (112.3 - 132.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Kartana is locked into Sacred Sword? Send in Froslass and force out the Kartana. A Life Orb set? Well, simply outspeed it then. Kyurem B is a common Scarf, Froslass naturally outspeeds it too, as would a Shell Smashed Cloyster

4 SpA Teravolt Kyurem-Black Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kartana: 273-322 (105.4 - 124.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kartana: 260-315 (100.3 - 121.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Cloyster even gets the added benefit of setting up in a Scarftana's face and then outspeeding it when it is Jolly. Then a Grass team just dies in front of it and Steel can have issues with Razor Shell variants.

Neither of these two Pokemon are broken or need to be banned, they just take some skill to handle, and teams will probably have to get creative to handle them. Gourgeist isn't particularly common on Grass teams, but it is a good solution to handling Mega Metagross and Kartana. Do I have to be worried about this?

+1 252 Atk Kartana Night Slash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 184-218 (49.1 - 58.2%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 146-172 (39 - 45.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Not Particularly. Grass, one of the worst types to use with its 5 weaknesses and 3 other resistances, has a solid answer to both of these Pokemon. Shouldn't common types like Water, Flying, Psychic, etc. have answers as well? You would think so.
 
I think you are overestimating Mega Metagross. I personally do not like it, but there are ways to handle it. Poison worried about a Zen Headbutt? Why? It has Drapion which is immune to it and neutral to Fighting and Steel as well. Drapion should be worried about an EQ, but then Poison has Crobat. Mega Metagross does not break types honestly. One just has to be smart in getting rid of it. Also, why do you have to use a scarf to counter Mega Meta anyway? I don't. As a grass main, I just run Gourgeist for it, and it happily tanks anything that it sends my way, and yes, that includes a potential Ice Punch (which only does approximately 40-45% depending on the roll). At that point, I can go for a Will-o-Wisp (being weary of a Heatran on steel or maybe an Espeon on Psychic), or a leech seed to scout a switch into said Heatran.

As for Kartana, well, I find Mega Metagross to be worse than it. With a 109 Base Speed, it comes short of a lot of Pokemon, so I find Scarf is common on it. At that point, the same issue as with Mega Metagross comes up. At least Kartana has limited coverage, so it isn't all that hard to find a Pokemon that can tank a +1 hit. Once you tank a hit, or outspeed with a 110 Scarf, or survive via a Sash, just use a Special move to kill it. Dragon is neutral or resistant to all of Kartana's moves, as is Flying. Water is worried about Kartana and it's Leaf Blade? Not really. Water has some options for tanking hits. Toxapex can tank a hit, as can Gyarados (pre mega). My personal favorite that I discovered when looking into this was Volcanion.

+1 252 Atk Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Volcanion: 243-286 (80.4 - 94.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO VS.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kartana: 2328-2740 (898.8 - 1057.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Can I say overkill? Also, Volcanion had no defense investment (the 4 EV's in HP was simply what the standard set had). A bulkier set can tank it even better, such as a standard Specs Tank EV Spread.

+1 252 Atk Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Volcanion: 241-285 (66.2 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Ice is worried about Kartana as well? Only if it is a Life Orb set maybe. A Scarf or Band set does not scare Ice so much. Locked into Smart Strike? Alolan Sandslash can tank a hit as can Avalugg. Lapras can even KO it back.

+1 252 Atk Kartana Smart Strike vs. 120 HP / 0 Def Lapras: 265-313 (61.4 - 72.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Lapras Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kartana: 291-343 (112.3 - 132.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Kartana is locked into Sacred Sword? Send in Froslass and force out the Kartana. A Life Orb set? Well, simply outspeed it then. Kyurem B is a common Scarf, Froslass naturally outspeeds it too, as would a Shell Smashed Cloyster

4 SpA Teravolt Kyurem-Black Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kartana: 273-322 (105.4 - 124.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kartana: 260-315 (100.3 - 121.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Cloyster even gets the added benefit of setting up in a Scarftana's face and then outspeeding it when it is Jolly. Then a Grass team just dies in front of it and Steel can have issues with Razor Shell variants.

Neither of these two Pokemon are broken or need to be banned, they just take some skill to handle, and teams will probably have to get creative to handle them. Gourgeist isn't particularly common on Grass teams, but it is a good solution to handling Mega Metagross and Kartana. Do I have to be worried about this?

+1 252 Atk Kartana Night Slash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 184-218 (49.1 - 58.2%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 146-172 (39 - 45.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Not Particularly. Grass, one of the worst types to use with its 5 weaknesses and 3 other resistances, has a solid answer to both of these Pokemon. Shouldn't common types like Water, Flying, Psychic, etc. have answers as well? You would think so.
Here's the thing with your poison example though. While yes, theoretically Drapion should check Mega Metagross, it's still 2KOd by both Meteor Mash and EQ. Not to mention, Banded Drain can jusr narrowly 2KO in return. As for your Crobat example, yeah it can switch into EQ, but it can't do jack shot otherwise, unless you run Super Fang? (which mind you isn't even a thing). I highly disagree about your proposition about Poison not struggling against Megagross, especially with the mega buff this gen, Mega Metagross does become significantly harder to check because of its great bulk and speed tier--Mega Metagross can also run Tough Claws boosted Grass Knot to check bulky Water types, which makes checks significantly limited.
 
Last edited:
In response to Iskildum
I think I can say that all players that play poison consistently will disagree with everything you said. Its not only zen headbutts that's an issue to deal with but meteor mash as well. Drapion and almost everything on poison will not resist meteor mash and easily get 2hkoed. (Salazzle ain't a switchin) As for you bringing up crobat, you do realize mega metagross is not choice locked right. Even if you do predict an earthquake (which makes no sense as they have no reason not to go for meteor mash) what is a crobat doing back to a metagross. At best it can super fang it for 50. Any sort of Drapion as a check wont work either because metagross will live any hit from drapion (very comfortably might i add) and a smart player wouldn't let their metagross get weakened by drapion anyways.
I'll also piggy back on asking the council for their thoughts on magearna.
From what I've experienced this pokemon is just as dangerous as pheromosa if you factor in it being amazingly bulky and having a godsent typing over pheromosa's initial speed. Arkenciel touched up on magearna so i won't ramble but i do think this pokemon needs to be looked at. Sorry for the terrible grammar and whatnot (written on phone)
 
Last edited:

Ren

fuck it if i cant have him
is a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
Not Particularly. Grass, one of the worst types to use with its 5 weaknesses and 3 other resistances, has a solid answer to both of these Pokemon. Shouldn't common types like Water, Flying, Psychic, etc. have answers as well? You would think so.
I'm aware I'm being nitpicky but not every common type will have a great matchup versus another common type. Worse types are viable due to their good matchups versus other common types. Some types are worse on the ladder, yes, but these types have a great matchup versus other types. That's why these are antimeta types - They don't perform consistently well but there are some matchups where playing the type is absolutely invaluable.
 
Here's the thing with your poison example though. While yes, theoretically Drapion should check Mega Metagross, it's still 2KOd by both Meteor Mash and EQ. Not to mention, Banded Drain can jusr narrowly 2KO in return. As for your Crobat example, yeah it can switch into EQ, but it can't do jack shot otherwise, unless you run Super Fang? (which mind you isn't even a thing). I agree especially with the mega buff this gen, Mega Metagross does become significantly harder to check because of its great bulk and speed tier--Mega Metagross can also run Tough Claws boosted Grass Knot to check bulky Water types, which makes checks significantly limited.
Sure, Salazzle can't switch in immediately, but if you sack something and then send it in, it can handle Mega Metagross pretty well. That being said, it has to be careful of a Heatran Switch, but Poison has several Ground types moves that can handle Heatran. Once the Heatran is gone, Fire generally slaughters Steel. Poison is one of the harder match ups vs. Mega Metagross, but the real threat comes from the Heatran which blocks fire, not the Metagross as much. Scarf Nidoking also deserves a mention as with a Scarf, it can carry both Flamethrower and Earth Power for fear of switches Celesteela/Skarmory or Heatran respectively. If said threats are gone, Nidoking pretty much takes care of Metagross.

252 SpA Sheer Force Nidoking Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Metagross-Mega: 266-314 (88.3 - 104.3%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

That 25% chance to OHKO shoots up to 81.3 if you run a Modest nature. Or you could stick with the Jolly Nature, damage it through other means (All of Jolly Mega Metagross's moves don't OHKO Drapion, including EQ. EQ barely can under Adamant), and then kill it with Nidoking or Salazzle. It is possible, even for a Poison type team, to handle Metagross, but it is a hard match up. However, hard match ups do not, and should not, immediately mean bans.
 
Sure, Salazzle can't switch in immediately, but if you sack something and then send it in, it can handle Mega Metagross pretty well. That being said, it has to be careful of a Heatran Switch, but Poison has several Ground types moves that can handle Heatran. Once the Heatran is gone, Fire generally slaughters Steel. Poison is one of the harder match ups vs. Mega Metagross, but the real threat comes from the Heatran which blocks fire, not the Metagross as much. Scarf Nidoking also deserves a mention as with a Scarf, it can carry both Flamethrower and Earth Power for fear of switches Celesteela/Skarmory or Heatran respectively. If said threats are gone, Nidoking pretty much takes care of Metagross.

252 SpA Sheer Force Nidoking Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Metagross-Mega: 266-314 (88.3 - 104.3%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

That 25% chance to OHKO shoots up to 81.3 if you run a Modest nature. Or you could stick with the Jolly Nature, damage it through other means (All of Jolly Mega Metagross's moves don't OHKO Drapion, including EQ. EQ barely can under Adamant), and then kill it with Nidoking or Salazzle. It is possible, even for a Poison type team, to handle Metagross, but it is a hard match up. However, hard match ups do not, and should not, immediately mean bans.
As someone who plays poison consistently, let me debunk some of your points:

1. Your solution to sack something to Mega-Meta means that you lose a pokemon. Poison is hurt more than some other types every time it loses a mon as it relies on synergy and coverage to function... what would you sack exactly? And what is preventing Mega-Meta from switching out, especially since you don't have pursuit on Salazzle? (not that it matters if you did, coming from that attack stat non-STAB'd)

2. Heatran isn't the real threat to poisons because it blocks fire; Salazzle and Nidoking are the only mons that typically have fire attacks anyway.

3. The most important point to make; poison as a monoteam usually struggles against any pokemon with ground/psychic coverage in one set (see: Lando-I or Mega-Diancie). Nidoking needs a scarf to even consider taking on Mega-Meta or else it is outsped and destroyed; even then, steel has Skarm/Celesteela and Heatran to eat ground/fire attacks, with nothing preventing Mega-Meta from switching out and back in later to OHKO something else (and god help you if it gets a Rock Polish in). Nidoking, like every single other poison pokemon in existence, cannot switch into Mega-Meta at all as it can either OHKO everything, or 2HKO the bulkier mons without being threatened with an OHKO back (poison/darks, toxapex, and maybe mega-venusaur).
 
Last edited:
I would like to add that the average Mega Metagross set does not tend to even run Zen Headbutt, preferring some combination of Meteor Mash, Hammer Arm, Thunder Punch, Ice Punch, Earthquake and Bullet Punch.

None of the Poison/Dark types except physically defensive Drapion can really tank Meteor Mash from it, coupled with the fact that they cannot recover and that no hit from Muk, Skuntank or Drapion will OHKO it, and Poison has a lot of trouble with it. Now, it has counters (not on Poison), but so has everything else that has been banned, so I've always found the "but x counters it!" argument not that good. (Even though, nothing on Poison will survive 2 hits from it, should it run Zen). Mega Metagross does not completely obliterate Poison. Poison has some soft checks, but a lack of a true counter. Also, Metagross when forgoing Zen Headbutt still does things like:

252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Ice Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Nidoking: 150-178 (95.5 - 113.3%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 76 HP / 180 Def Drapion: 85-102 (54.8 - 65.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Muk-Alola: 135-160 (63.6 - 75.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 248 HP / 4 Def Crobat: 129-153 (67.5 - 80.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

Do not think me defending the "Mega Metagross destroys poison" argument reflects my view on it. I still very much think it is not banworthy. There are Pokemon that dominate types much more than Mega Metagross, such as SP Scizor and Choice Scarf Terrakion, yet no one considers either to be broken.

As for Magearna, I think that's just a Pokemon that people haven't really adapted to. Looking at its stats, typing and movepool, it does not seem much different from Offensive Heatran.

Magearna:
80/95/115/130/115/65

Heatran:
91/90/106/130/106/77

Pretty much identical bulk, exactly the same Special Attack, but superior Speed (and a worse movepool for Heatran) means that these are not too different from each other. Soul-Heart and Flash Fire are both very good abilities, one is more offensive while the other is much more important to Steel and to Heatran in general. Magearna's coverage is noticeably better than Heatran's, that's not worth defending. (Heatran's is still pretty good, but Magearna has tools like Volt Switch, Ice Beam, and others.) Heatran, in return, has a better support movepool and is able to run bulky sets much better. I do not think Magearna should be ever imagined as broken when it is so comparable to another that is not considered broken. Do I think it is better? Yes, it is a godsend on Fairy teams and has an amazing typing, comparable to Flash Fire Heatran (but not superior, defensively), though it is not even close to stepping foot into the "too good" territory.
 
Last edited:
As for Magearna, I think that's just a Pokemon that people haven't really adapted to. Looking at its stats, typing and movepool, it does not seem much different from Offensive Heatran.

Magearna:
80/95/115/130/115/65

Heatran:
91/90/106/130/106/77

Pretty much identical bulk, exactly the same Special Attack, but superior Speed (and a worse movepool for Heatran) means that these are not too different from each other. Soul-Heart and Flash Fire are both very good abilities, one is more offensive while the other is much more important to Steel and to Heatran in general. Magearna's coverage is noticeably better than Heatran's, that's not worth defending. (Heatran's is still pretty good, but Magearna has tools like Volt Switch, Ice Beam, and others.) Heatran, in return, has a better support movepool and is able to run bulky sets much better. I do not think Magearna should be ever imagined as broken when it is so comparable to another that is not considered broken. Do I think it is better? Yes, it is a godsend on Fairy teams and has an amazing typing, comparable to Flash Fire Heatran (but not superior, defensively), though it is not even close to stepping foot into the "too good" territory.
stat-wise and defensively, you are correct in that heatran and magearna have similarities. However, offensively Magearna is undoubtedly superior for a couple reasons:

1. Fairy is a better nuking type than Fire, especially with its ability combined with Fleur Cannon. One could in theory run the fairy Z-crystal, fire off a Z-fleur cannon with no penalty, get the +1 from its ability, then fire off a +1 Fleur Cannon (assuming a kill), and afterwards be back at +0 (assuming another kill) ready to fire another Fleur Cannon. With that special attack stat and the raw power from STAB Fleur Cannon, it isn't unreasonable to assume that something is going to die as long as you don't attack something like Toxapex or Heatran..

2. Importantly, Magearna has 2 different but effective forms of speed control in Shift Gear and Trick Room. All Heatran has is Flame Charge which is vastly inferior, which is probably a major factor in why Heatran is more of a defensive tank while Magearna could be more of a sweeper / nuke.
 
I was going to get all the replays I wanted before posting here, but since the discussion picked up in pace, I can't help myself anymore. I agree with lskildum that hard match ups should not equal bans, but only if it's limited to a few types. Mega Metagross tilts the match up for MANY types without having to change its moveset. You can build Metagross-Mega to specifically annihilate almost any one type easily and a few with a little more work, but with something like Zen Headbutt, Grass Knot, Bullet Punch, and Ice Punch (which is what I use), you have the edge against Fighting, Dragon, Flying (Magnezone trapping for Skarm/Celesteela), and Ground (trust me, makes things way easier). On top of this, I'd like to mention Steel's inherently favorable match-ups which are just further exacerbated by Metagross-Mega: Ice, Rock, Poison, and Fairy. Not to mention the types Steel already has a good chance at beating without Metagross-Mega, like Grass, Bug, and Normal. And that's all with the same moveset I use. Other options include Hammer Arm, Earthquake, and Thunder Punch, which adds a layer of unpredictability to this Pokemon. You've all seen the calcs of Metagross-Mega tanking a myriad of attacks, so I won't get into that, and I'm hoping to get replays of Metagross-Mega in later, but I just wanted to jump in this while it was hot. There's also Metagross-Mega on Psychic, which does something else entirely, but I'm admittedly not very familiar with it there.

And now onto Magearna! I think I wasn't very clear before, but I now I want to paint a clearer picture. First of all, Magearna has a GODSEND typing along with great bulk. On top of this, it has a colorful movepool consisting of Aura Sphere, Thunderbolt/Volt Switch, Dazzling Gleam/Fleur Cannon, Flash Cannon, Energy Ball, and Ice Beam! You can cover a lot of Pokemon with those moves, and you may be able to get away with a turn one sweep against a few types with unprepared builds by using Shift Gear to allow Magearna to outspeed up to Scarf Garchomp with a Timid nature. The ability to boost its speed sharply in tandem with its colorful move-pool and Soul-Heart makes it a VERY dangerous Pokemon, capable of sweeping types on its own from turn one. While it has the ability to sweep at turn one, I was just using that as a way to illustrate how helpless a type could be to Magearna. It's more prudent to save Magearna as a late-game sweeper as it can nab boosts easier against weakened foes.

Aside from Shift Gear, Magearna also has access to Trick Room, which is arguably just as effective as Shift Gear, allowing Magearna to "outspeed" everything, but in a different way. Using Trick Room also allows Magearna to dump its speed EVs into HP instead, further bolstering its bulk, and Life Orb, optionally, to make its attacks hit even harder. Trick Room not only makes Magearna a solid sweeper on its own because of Soul-Heart, but it also lets Magearna support its teammates like Banded Tapu Bulu, which can just about OHKO everything that isn't a wall, and still 2HKO most walls (with SR) through resist! Trick Room and Shift Gear are not to your liking? Specs and Scarf work just fine! I personally use Scarf and have had great success with it, but most have opted with a Z-stone, and for good reason! Z-Stones allow any Pokemon to drop a nuke any time and they want and this is especially useful for Magearna since KO'ing a Pokemon gives it a SpA raise thanks to its amazing Soul-Heart ability. Let's not mention the fact it doesn't even have to KO a Pokemon directly to gain a boost.. Simply switching it in vs a Toxic'd mon about to die or timing a switch against one of your opponent's sacks to hazard starts you off with a +1 SpA raise.

With Magearna, what we have is a bulky Pokemon with an amazing type and solid coverage backed by respectable power, which is further bolstered each time it can get a KO thanks to Soul-Heart ability, and is made possible through either Shift Gear or Trick Room, the latter of which can support teammates, and is made even easier with Z-stones, but can just as easily work with Choice Scarf and Choice Specs to fulfill different roles.

I'll be working on getting replays for Magearna as well as Metagross-Mega.
 
Last edited:
A lot of great Mega Metagross discussion this week! Sadly don't have as much time this week to get testing and building in, so I'm listening to you all even more than ever. Just got one question.

I'm curious how exactly Mega Metagross Steel teams are handling Zygarde-10%. No non-Mega Pokemon outside of Scizor can switch into it safely and reliably, I think (non-Mega Scizor requires maximum Defense investment, hardly an optimal choice). In fact, Scizor can switch into even Choice Band / +1 Thousand Arrows before it Mega Evolves and still survive to Roost after. Seeing as Ground is a very popular type and Zygarde-10% is used on Ground teams all the time, I'd like some insight on this matter. Mixed bulk Ferrothorn is 2HKOed by Choice Band Superpower, often 3HKOed by Thousand Arrows, and lacks reliable recovery, so it's a very unreliable switch-in in my view. It's also a bit redundant if you're running Kartana, as many like to.

Thanks in advance for your response!
 
Hmm, I've posted my thoughts on Magearna already, and I think my stance on Mega Metagross should be fairly obvious, but I'll post a replay to highlight.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-491199113

Now, that is a fairly standard balance Rock, since I can't run Diancie over Nihilego yet. As you can see, I was forced to sack a Pokemon to mega metagross every single time it came in, even if I had webs up, and the only reason I won was because I played CB Terrakion very, VERY, recklessly, which allowed me to get the advantage in the sack v sack war, and my opponent quite honestly played pretty bad by using Protect so much.
(Note that I automatically lost had my opponent simply led Kartana and clicked Leaf Blade, as even max phys def Crad is 2HKO'd.)

Should Rock lose to Steel? Sure. Should it be as easy as clicking Leaf Blade 6 times with Kartana? I don't THINK so, but maybe people disagree.

(As a side note, I wonder how common Ground really is, considering the buffs to Grass and Kartana's existence on Steel...?)
 
Last edited:

scpinion

Life > Monotype... unfortunately :)
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Ground is very good, but it isn't getting the love it should on the ladder (or at least that has been my experience thus far).

As Eien said earlier, Banded Zygarde-10% is a major threat to almost every type, especially those that do not naturally resist Ground-type attacks or lack excellent physical walls (think Mega-Scizor, Slowbro, Hippo, etc.). You don't have to worry about covering all the Ground immunities in Monotype w/ Lando + Chomper + Mamo anymore, which means Ground is not limited to the generic sand balance builds. This enables excellent Ground type Pokemon that were almost never used in Gen 6 to play a prominent role on teams in the Gen7 metagame.

For instance, TheThorn built a cool team with Dugtrio, Gliscor, Zygarde-10%, and Scarf Excadrill that works well (it was used in the team tour on multiple occasions). I've also seen a couple other good/new Ground builds running around, each one capitalizing on Zygarde or Zygarde-10%'s unique ability to pressure a team's typical check/counter to Ground-type attacks.
 
Last edited:
Ground is very good, but it isn't getting the love it should on the ladder (or at least that has been my experience thus far).

As Eien said earlier, Banded Zygarde-10% is a major threat to almost every type, especially those that do not naturally resist Ground-type attacks or lack excellent physical walls (think Mega-Scizor, Slowbro, Hippo, etc.). You don't have to worry about covering all the Ground immunities in Monotype w/ Lando + Chomper + Mamo anymore, which means Ground is not limited to the generic sand balance builds. This enables excellent Ground type Pokemon that were almost never used in Gen 6 to play a prominent role on teams in the Gen7 metagame.

For instance, shadestep (not gonna tag him b/c I don't think he reads this thread) built a cool team with Dugtrio, Gliscor, Zygarde-10%, and Scarf Excadrill that works well (it was used in the team tour on multiple occasions). I've also seen a couple other good/new Ground builds running around, each one capitalizing on Zygarde or Zygarde-10%'s unique ability to pressure a team's typical check/counter to Ground-type attacks.
Thousand arrows essentially 6-0s electric teams. It's a nightmare right now.
 

Moosical

big yikes
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
Thousand arrows essentially 6-0s electric teams. It's a nightmare right now.
I don't think that TA alone destroys a prepared electric team. As long as you have at least 1 scarf HP ice on your team, or even HP ice raichu-a, you can deal with zygarde-10% on a 1v1 basis, as it crumbles beneath. However, like scp had mentioned, zydoge allows ground to take advantage of sets that it couldn't before, such as the bigger issue, in my eyes, being scarf excadrill. Electric has always had the ability to deal with sand rush excadrill, as defensive rotom-w completely walls it, with the potential to either 1hko with hydro pump, or get a burn on at least something. However, with ground running scarf mold breaker, you have to play a game of cat and mouse trying to keep zapdos or thundurus alive to prevent a clean earthquake sweep. Electric does have raichu-a now, which has the potential to deal with excadrill, outspeeding both variants (under electric terrain). But, LO raichu-a simply cannot 1hko excadrill (unless modest), and choice specs raichu-a (much less common) is just asking for the water absorb switch in. It was possible for electric to beat sand ground team in gen6, as long as you were prepared enough, but given the sets zygarde-10% allows to be run, it becomes an almost un-winnable matchup.

In my opinion, zygarde-10% does to a lot of types what mega-metagross is also doing, just in a less obvious manner. It cleanly sweeps through steel steams, being able to 1-2hko almost all commonly used mons, giving no switch-ins except for things that Eien mentioned. It also can't deal with it as a revenge kill unless they're running kartana (fairly common), or the steel user is willing to risk the roll on full hp mega-metagross. It also has the potential to cleanly sweep through the other types that already have a problem with ground such as fire, poison, electric, and rock by completely negating their ground immunities. On top of this, it allows ground to much more easily deal with types it typically had issues with, such as flying type. To every other type that is neutral, zygarde-10% will still hit for massive damage with 100 base + band, unless they're running the odd grass or bug typing on top of their base type (such as gourgeist/dhelmise for ghost).

Edit: readyletsgo (post below), I was referring to surf, sorry, I don't want to make a new post just to answer that question. I'm not the biggest fan of focus miss.
 
Last edited:
Electric does have raichu-a now, which has the potential to deal with excadrill, outspeeding both variants (under electric terrain). But, LO raichu-a simply cannot 1hko excadrill (unless modest), and choice specs raichu-a (much less common) is just asking for the water absorb switch in. It was possible for electric to beat sand ground team in gen6, as long as you were prepared enough, but given the sets zygarde-10% allows to be run, it becomes an almost un-winnable matchup.
Are you referring to OHKO with focus blast or surf?
 
All right, so I made the effort(!) of actually checking the Smog article "Looking back on an Era: ORAS Monotype" when concerning the bans made back in gen 6.
This is what it had to say on Mega Metagross:

"Mega Metagross was a monstrous force in the Monotype metagame. It was able to easily sweep Ice, Fairy, and Rock teams on its own. Mega Metagross was used on Steel teams, as it gave Steel teams an offensive check to Fighting-types. Its Tough Claws ability gave all of its contact moves a 30% increase in power. Mega Metagross almost always ran dual STAB moves in Meteor Mash and Zen Headbutt, as Mega Metagross's STAB types complemented each other well offensively. Coverage moves such as Thunder Punch, Ice Punch, Earthquake, Hammer Arm, and Grass Knot were run to get rid of common checks and counters. Additionally, Mega Metagross had priority in Bullet Punch, meaning it could safely Mega Evolve on even Mega Diancie and could pick off weakened revenge killers, and its great 85 / 150 / 110 defenses, meant it could take super effective hits with little to no defensive investment. Mega Metagross also saw some use on Psychic teams, but it wasn't utilized to its fullest potential. Mega Metagross had a combination of power, versatility, and defense that in turn resulted in it being globally banned."

What, exactly, has changed? Well, to start, it is obvious that most people have realized that Fairy now has some counter play to Mega Metagross, mostly in the form of the new Tapu Koko, which helps alot in the Steel matchup. It also got access to Tapu Fini, a pokemon able to actually take Meteor Mashes. Alongside this, later in ORAS and now in SM, people have noticed that Mega Scizor has a bigger use in more matchups than Mega Metagross, due to a combination of it's bulk, typing and setup/recovery abilities. As for Psychic, it seems the consensus is that Mega Alakazam is the better mega, if only due to the support it provides in the Water, Ground and other matchups. (Whether or not this is due to the support from Tapu Lele allowing it to overcome it's previous "not hitting QUITE hard enough" problem, or simply due to the changes to speed on Mega Evolution is up for debate)

However, despite these changes, most of the argument presented for it's previous ban still applies. Metagross does indeed still have incredible coverage that allows it to beat it's common checks and counters (as far as I'm aware). It no longer has to run Bullet Punch, benefitting greatly from the changes made to speed calculations on Mega Evolutions. It still has great natural defenses, meaning it can take super effective hits with little to no investment.

I guess my question really is, are the changes in the metagame enough to justify it not being rebanned, despite it having practically gotten BETTER on Steel with the change of generation? I don't know. I just thought to bring it up is all, so feel free to critique what I posted, whether you're for or against.

(As a side note, is there any new Gen 7 mon that walls/checks Metagross that discredits some of the arguments made for its ban the previous gen?)
 

scpinion

Life > Monotype... unfortunately :)
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
All right, so I made the effort(!) of actually checking the Smog article "Looking back on an Era: ORAS Monotype" when concerning the bans made back in gen 6.
This is what it had to say on Mega Metagross:

"Mega Metagross was a monstrous force in the Monotype metagame. It was able to easily sweep Ice, Fairy, and Rock teams on its own. Mega Metagross was used on Steel teams, as it gave Steel teams an offensive check to Fighting-types. Its Tough Claws ability gave all of its contact moves a 30% increase in power. Mega Metagross almost always ran dual STAB moves in Meteor Mash and Zen Headbutt, as Mega Metagross's STAB types complemented each other well offensively. Coverage moves such as Thunder Punch, Ice Punch, Earthquake, Hammer Arm, and Grass Knot were run to get rid of common checks and counters. Additionally, Mega Metagross had priority in Bullet Punch, meaning it could safely Mega Evolve on even Mega Diancie and could pick off weakened revenge killers, and its great 85 / 150 / 110 defenses, meant it could take super effective hits with little to no defensive investment. Mega Metagross also saw some use on Psychic teams, but it wasn't utilized to its fullest potential. Mega Metagross had a combination of power, versatility, and defense that in turn resulted in it being globally banned."

What, exactly, has changed? Well, to start, it is obvious that most people have realized that Fairy now has some counter play to Mega Metagross, mostly in the form of the new Tapu Koko, which helps alot in the Steel matchup. It also got access to Tapu Fini, a pokemon able to actually take Meteor Mashes. Alongside this, later in ORAS and now in SM, people have noticed that Mega Scizor has a bigger use in more matchups than Mega Metagross, due to a combination of it's bulk, typing and setup/recovery abilities. As for Psychic, it seems the consensus is that Mega Alakazam is the better mega, if only due to the support it provides in the Water, Ground and other matchups. (Whether or not this is due to the support from Tapu Lele allowing it to overcome it's previous "not hitting QUITE hard enough" problem, or simply due to the changes to speed on Mega Evolution is up for debate)

However, despite these changes, most of the argument presented for it's previous ban still applies. Metagross does indeed still have incredible coverage that allows it to beat it's common checks and counters (as far as I'm aware). It no longer has to run Bullet Punch, benefitting greatly from the changes made to speed calculations on Mega Evolutions. It still has great natural defenses, meaning it can take super effective hits with little to no investment.

I guess my question really is, are the changes in the metagame enough to justify it not being rebanned, despite it having practically gotten BETTER on Steel with the change of generation? I don't know. I just thought to bring it up is all, so feel free to critique what I posted, whether you're for or against.

(As a side note, is there any new Gen 7 mon that walls/checks Metagross that discredits some of the arguments made for its ban the previous gen?)
It isn't new Pokemon or new mechanics that changed. It is our tiering philosophy.

The tiering philosophy when Mega Metagross was initially banned was "all types should be usable" (it might have been when we were doing "all types should be equal"?). From experience, we know that isn't a viable way to tier the Monotype metagame. Achieving this requires us to dilute the metagame to the point where types like Ice or Rock are generally viable, which the council unanimously agreed was a poor decision back when those changes were implemented.

If that was still our philosophy then all sorts of things would be more "broken" than Mega Metagross (e.g. Mega Scizor).
 
Last edited:
All right, so I made the effort(!) of actually checking the Smog article "Looking back on an Era: ORAS Monotype" when concerning the bans made back in gen 6.
This is what it had to say on Mega Metagross:

"Mega Metagross was a monstrous force in the Monotype metagame. It was able to easily sweep Ice, Fairy, and Rock teams on its own. Mega Metagross was used on Steel teams, as it gave Steel teams an offensive check to Fighting-types. Its Tough Claws ability gave all of its contact moves a 30% increase in power. Mega Metagross almost always ran dual STAB moves in Meteor Mash and Zen Headbutt, as Mega Metagross's STAB types complemented each other well offensively. Coverage moves such as Thunder Punch, Ice Punch, Earthquake, Hammer Arm, and Grass Knot were run to get rid of common checks and counters. Additionally, Mega Metagross had priority in Bullet Punch, meaning it could safely Mega Evolve on even Mega Diancie and could pick off weakened revenge killers, and its great 85 / 150 / 110 defenses, meant it could take super effective hits with little to no defensive investment. Mega Metagross also saw some use on Psychic teams, but it wasn't utilized to its fullest potential. Mega Metagross had a combination of power, versatility, and defense that in turn resulted in it being globally banned."

What, exactly, has changed? Well, to start, it is obvious that most people have realized that Fairy now has some counter play to Mega Metagross, mostly in the form of the new Tapu Koko, which helps alot in the Steel matchup. It also got access to Tapu Fini, a pokemon able to actually take Meteor Mashes. Alongside this, later in ORAS and now in SM, people have noticed that Mega Scizor has a bigger use in more matchups than Mega Metagross, due to a combination of it's bulk, typing and setup/recovery abilities. As for Psychic, it seems the consensus is that Mega Alakazam is the better mega, if only due to the support it provides in the Water, Ground and other matchups. (Whether or not this is due to the support from Tapu Lele allowing it to overcome it's previous "not hitting QUITE hard enough" problem, or simply due to the changes to speed on Mega Evolution is up for debate)

However, despite these changes, most of the argument presented for it's previous ban still applies. Metagross does indeed still have incredible coverage that allows it to beat it's common checks and counters (as far as I'm aware). It no longer has to run Bullet Punch, benefitting greatly from the changes made to speed calculations on Mega Evolutions. It still has great natural defenses, meaning it can take super effective hits with little to no investment.

I guess my question really is, are the changes in the metagame enough to justify it not being rebanned, despite it having practically gotten BETTER on Steel with the change of generation? I don't know. I just thought to bring it up is all, so feel free to critique what I posted, whether you're for or against.

(As a side note, is there any new Gen 7 mon that walls/checks Metagross that discredits some of the arguments made for its ban the previous gen?)
e: I really got sinped by 1 minute D:

If you read the article, the tiering philosophy at the time was to make all types usable. That is not the case, as the tiering philosophy is to not have any one type be overly powerful. I would personally like to have as many usable types as possible, but I don't believe that is a very reachable goal. There's precedence in the Mega Sableye and Aegislash bans where Ghost was made essentially unusable. On a side note, you should answer all of those questions because you want it banned.

ArkenCiel massively overestimated Mega Metagross in his post, so I think it's false to say that Mega Metagross's incredible coverage can be used optimally. Certainly he is correct for some (a) matchups, but others are grossly (heh) overestimated. Specifically, his set actually loses to almost every example he gave! This is exactly why I've been saying time and time agin that Mega Metagross cannot use all of its coverage and suffers from four-moveslot syndrome. I suppose I'll have to explain why:
Flying: Celesteela can and does run Earthquake, so Magnezone cannot actually switch into it. Furthermore, even if both Celesteela and Skarmory are trapped and removed, Mandibuzz is a complete wall to this set lacking Meteor Mash and can always switch in. Offensive Flying also has Mega Charizard Y too.

Ground: Completely untrue and this actually shows a lack of experience with the metagame. Sand Rush Excadrill, Dugtrio, and Zygarde-10% all outspeed and either outright OHKO it or deal enough that very minor chip damage is sufficient. As a matter of fact, deciding to use Mega Metagross means that Zygarde-10% essentially just wins vs. your team, as it outspeeds Choice Scarf Magnezone as well. With HO builds being very popular, I'm completely lost at how this was even thought to be true.

Poison: Without Meteor Mash, Alolan Muk can beat Mega Metagross pretty soundly. It always switches into at least one Ice Punch, and if Mega Metagross uses Zen Headbutt it's for free. Knock Off is a guaranteed 2HKO even without any investment (I'd use some though). A fully invested Alolan Muk could even 2HKO Mega Metagross with Knock Off -> Shadow Sneak as well. It used to. Apparently it was either a bug or it's bugged right now, but Knock Off doesn't 2HKO anymore. RIP. Either way, Muk is pretty damn reliable, dealing at least 40 with any real investment and requiring Mega Metagross to win the 50/50 and Ice Punch it the turn it switches in.

Fairy: ? Choice Specs Thunderbolt from Tapu Koko deals 80% minimum? Azumarill gets free time to set up with Reflect? Klefki also switches in relatively easily, as does Magearna. I'm very confused after this and Ground.

Normal: Yeah, this makes no sense. Porygon2 walls every Mega Metagross set. Arken's set lacking both Meteor Mash and Hammer Arm also gets walled by Chansey of all things. Completely confused now.

Grass: Surprisingly (maybe), Grass can beat this. I personally use Sticky Web on my team (I posted about it way earlier in this very thread). With Serperior, Tapu Bulu, and Kartana, it's actually not that difficult to defeat Mega Metagross. Not any more difficult than other huge threats like Mega Charizard X and the other problems a type like Grass will face. This is why I voted Wait on it. I want to see the metagame adapt to it instead of just banning it due to initial reaction.

Bug: Pretty sure this set is just walled by Mega Scizor. Actually, Mega Metagross in general is walled by Mega Scizor. So... Even with Magnezone trapping Mega Scizor (and Forretress fwiw lol), Bug still has a chance because of Hidden Power Ground Volcarona. If it ever gets a Quiver Dance, the game just ends.

Ice: Hilariously enough, this set is perhaps the only Mega Metagross that gets completely walled by Avalugg even with Stealth Rock support.

Not going to seriously argue Rock. Cradily can't do anything in return, despite being a GSI, although Choice Band Terrakion should put in some work here in conjunction with it, but yeah the Steel matchup itself is busted, hardly a Mega Metagross issue.
 
Last edited:

Shadestep

volition immanent
is a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
I don't think that TA alone destroys a prepared electric team.
i think it really does, though. Zydog completely invalidates Electric as a typing if I'm being honest, since there's literally no counterplay to it at all. It's different than Mold Break Excadrill in a sense because it also breaks through Air Balloons, and Zygarde-10% also has a solid secondary STAB that lets it OHKO defensive Rotom-formes (which Excadrill can't, it has to rely on Rock Slide which only hits Rotom-H and Rotom-F, not Rotom-C). If you're using Electric and your opponent has Zydog, there's literally nothing you can do to win the match, outside of your opponent or yourself misplaying.

As you said basically the only thing Electric has for Zydog are either HP Ice Raichu-A, Tapu Koko (which is just as stupid as Zydog, ban please), or random Scarfers like Rotom-H or Xurxitree. All of these Pokemon can't switch in at all since they'll all get OHKOd, but the bigger problem is that all these Scarfers are extremely easy to pivot into, on both Ground and Dragon-teams. Ground has Excadrill to pivot in on Tapu Koko or Raichu-A for example, which can easily spam Earthquake after, for example. Dragon has Latios/Latias which obviously both wall Alolan Raichu and Xurxitree, especially since both are highly unlikely to use Volt Switch on a Zydog which they are aiming to Revenge Kill. It then gives them free space to either Roost off the damage taken or Draco and basically claim another kill since Electric doesn't really have decent Spdef. mons to rrely on to take multiple Draco's, besides something like AV Eelektross? maybe. But then again, it's mostly a chain reaction because Zydog forces the Electric-user in a tough spot where it'll always end up in a kill on the opposing end. Obviously Dragon vs. Electric isn't ever a favorable match-up for the Electric user but Zydog makes it literally unwinnable, and it should definitely be banned.

Another big problem with Zydog is the matchup of Ground vs Steel. Using Zydog on any Ground-team immediately gives you the edge over the Steel-type user as its typing allows it to easily switch-in on a lot of the weaker, bulkier Steel-type Pokemon that are used to sponge most of the hits like Heatran and Skarmory, and proceed to spam Thousand Arrows vs the team, which can basically give no counterplay at all to it. Unlike something like Mold Breaker Excadrill which is still completely walled by Skarmory, can be forced out by being locked into the wrong move, etc. Zydog doesn't struggle from any of those problems as it basically reigns for free vs teams like this.

tl;dr Zydog gives for brainless buttonclicking, offers little to zero counterplay on multiple teams that normally face off pretty decently vs. Ground (or Dragon even), makes for practically unwinnable matchups and is honestly just stupid and uncompetitive. BAN IT PLEASE.
 
i think it really does, though. Zydog completely invalidates Electric as a typing if I'm being honest, since there's literally no counterplay to it at all. It's different than Mold Break Excadrill in a sense because it also breaks through Air Balloons, and Zygarde-10% also has a solid secondary STAB that lets it OHKO defensive Rotom-formes (which Excadrill can't, it has to rely on Rock Slide which only hits Rotom-H and Rotom-F, not Rotom-C). If you're using Electric and your opponent has Zydog, there's literally nothing you can do to win the match, outside of your opponent or yourself misplaying.

As you said basically the only thing Electric has for Zydog are either HP Ice Raichu-A, Tapu Koko (which is just as stupid as Zydog, ban please), or random Scarfers like Rotom-H or Xurxitree. All of these Pokemon can't switch in at all since they'll all get OHKOd, but the bigger problem is that all these Scarfers are extremely easy to pivot into, on both Ground and Dragon-teams. Ground has Excadrill to pivot in on Tapu Koko or Raichu-A for example, which can easily spam Earthquake after, for example. Dragon has Latios/Latias which obviously both wall Alolan Raichu and Xurxitree, especially since both are highly unlikely to use Volt Switch on a Zydog which they are aiming to Revenge Kill. It then gives them free space to either Roost off the damage taken or Draco and basically claim another kill since Electric doesn't really have decent Spdef. mons to rrely on to take multiple Draco's, besides something like AV Eelektross? maybe. But then again, it's mostly a chain reaction because Zydog forces the Electric-user in a tough spot where it'll always end up in a kill on the opposing end. Obviously Dragon vs. Electric isn't ever a favorable match-up for the Electric user but Zydog makes it literally unwinnable, and it should definitely be banned.

Another big problem with Zydog is the matchup of Ground vs Steel. Using Zydog on any Ground-team immediately gives you the edge over the Steel-type user as its typing allows it to easily switch-in on a lot of the weaker, bulkier Steel-type Pokemon that are used to sponge most of the hits like Heatran and Skarmory, and proceed to spam Thousand Arrows vs the team, which can basically give no counterplay at all to it. Unlike something like Mold Breaker Excadrill which is still completely walled by Skarmory, can be forced out by being locked into the wrong move, etc. Zydog doesn't struggle from any of those problems as it basically reigns for free vs teams like this.

tl;dr Zydog gives for brainless buttonclicking, offers little to zero counterplay on multiple teams that normally face off pretty decently vs. Ground (or Dragon even), makes for practically unwinnable matchups and is honestly just stupid and uncompetitive. BAN IT PLEASE.

you cant just say ban it because it beats what its suppose to. Those match ups were already unfavorable and to be quite honest its basically electric's mega scizor when compared to ice/rock. Its not even that strong when it comes to attack power because the mon is weaker than infernape when comparing raw stat. Electric has pokes that can live a thousand arrows attack, it might not be a switch in but it can atleast get off a wil o wisp if needed. (Rotom-W)
 

Moosical

big yikes
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
i think it really does, though. Zydog completely invalidates Electric as a typing if I'm being honest, since there's literally no counterplay to it at all. It's different than Mold Break Excadrill in a sense because it also breaks through Air Balloons, and Zygarde-10% also has a solid secondary STAB that lets it OHKO defensive Rotom-formes (which Excadrill can't, it has to rely on Rock Slide which only hits Rotom-H and Rotom-F, not Rotom-C). If you're using Electric and your opponent has Zydog, there's literally nothing you can do to win the match, outside of your opponent or yourself misplaying.

As you said basically the only thing Electric has for Zydog are either HP Ice Raichu-A, Tapu Koko (which is just as stupid as Zydog, ban please), or random Scarfers like Rotom-H or Xurxitree. All of these Pokemon can't switch in at all since they'll all get OHKOd, but the bigger problem is that all these Scarfers are extremely easy to pivot into, on both Ground and Dragon-teams. Ground has Excadrill to pivot in on Tapu Koko or Raichu-A for example, which can easily spam Earthquake after, for example. Dragon has Latios/Latias which obviously both wall Alolan Raichu and Xurxitree, especially since both are highly unlikely to use Volt Switch on a Zydog which they are aiming to Revenge Kill. It then gives them free space to either Roost off the damage taken or Draco and basically claim another kill since Electric doesn't really have decent Spdef. mons to rrely on to take multiple Draco's, besides something like AV Eelektross? maybe. But then again, it's mostly a chain reaction because Zydog forces the Electric-user in a tough spot where it'll always end up in a kill on the opposing end. Obviously Dragon vs. Electric isn't ever a favorable match-up for the Electric user but Zydog makes it literally unwinnable, and it should definitely be banned.

Another big problem with Zydog is the matchup of Ground vs Steel. Using Zydog on any Ground-team immediately gives you the edge over the Steel-type user as its typing allows it to easily switch-in on a lot of the weaker, bulkier Steel-type Pokemon that are used to sponge most of the hits like Heatran and Skarmory, and proceed to spam Thousand Arrows vs the team, which can basically give no counterplay at all to it. Unlike something like Mold Breaker Excadrill which is still completely walled by Skarmory, can be forced out by being locked into the wrong move, etc. Zydog doesn't struggle from any of those problems as it basically reigns for free vs teams like this.

tl;dr Zydog gives for brainless buttonclicking, offers little to zero counterplay on multiple teams that normally face off pretty decently vs. Ground (or Dragon even), makes for practically unwinnable matchups and is honestly just stupid and uncompetitive. BAN IT PLEASE.
I think you might've slightly misunderstood what I was trying to say. I agree that zydog is overpowered, deserves a ban, and everything that you said, etc. When I said "I don't think TA alone destroys a prepared electric team" I meant that literally if they only had zydog, there are ways to deal with it. Given the tools (which why I mentioned scarf excadrill to such extent) that ground (and dragon) has is what makes it unwinnable. My point was that if excadrill did not exist, I believe that electric could deal with zydog ground teams. I probably was misleading in my wording that sounds like I think excadrill is more over-powered than zydog, but, that's not the case.

The only switch in electric has vs zydog is scarf sturdy magnezone (if rocks are not up), which you can only do once.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top