Metagame SM Monotype Metagame Discussion

[Omega-Xis]

Just here to post about an element of the metagame that I find discussion worthy and that was very controversial in ORAS. When I say I find it discussion worthy, I'm not saying I want to jump right on a ban bandwagon. I would agree with people who say that with the influx of mons like the Tapus, some types now have access to or have access to more options to deal with Mega Sab. While I do find that statement valid to some extent, I also think that that's a reason not solidly grounded in the metagame.

Ground

In Gen 6, this felt like a much different matchup to me, and the main factor I can attribute that to is the burn nerf. M-Sab was very annoying to deal with as Ground if you weren't in the perfect mon to deal with it as it came out (and nobody was bringing their Sab in hard on a Lando-I) it would find something to easily CM on. This wasn't as annoying, however, due to the fact that Gastro could stomach hits for quite awhile, burn Mega Eye and cause it to lose 1/8 a turn. By the time you found an opportunity to switch it was usually chipped enough that you just soaked a burn on another special attacker or could use something like Mix MegaChomp or Exca to EQ it down if it was Mega'd.

More or less just wanted to comment that it feels even harder this gen to beat with less chip and it's much harder for ground if it gets to +1 than last gen. I really felt the need to be perfect to win, and I didn't get that feeling in ORAS using Ground against M-Sab.

Ghost

Ghost v Ghost seems just as gross as last gen (Who wins the CM war? Which +6 M-Sab crits?) I think enough people saw CM wars last gen to be sick of that song and dance. The addition of Mimikyu in my opinion adds an unhealthy element to this matchup in particular. With Jelli + Dou + M-Sab with Dhelmise/Gourg in the back soaking EQs, the matchup will be decided by who spreads more burn and who effectively uses Prankster/Magic Bounce to greater effect. To quote from the OU tiering policy's section on unhealthy elements being presented in a game:

"A.) These are elements that may not limit either team building or battling skill enough individually, but combine to cause an effect that is undesirable for the metagame.
1.) We haven't really had an example of an unhealthy ban yet, but a potential example is Stealth Rock; it certainly is on the mind of every team building experience and games are often steeped in Stealth Rock strategy."

The potential example in this case is Will-o-Wisp. Who spreads more burns wearing down Mimikyu and the core of Jelli + Dou + Dhelm/Gourg backing up M-Sab?

I would add Dragon and Fighting here as well but I'm still uncertain on whether or not I think Mimikyu is a potential bigger offender or if it's some other element altogether. I've just seen some Ghost vs. Dragon/Fighting games and M-Sab + Mimikyu seems very strong together in addition to the defensive sponge backing them up.

As I think you maybe have gotten a sense from my post, I find M-Sab a lot more threatening on Ghost than Dark, although as the policy goes if the community/council ever did have the discussion, a suspect was initialized and there was a vote, we as a community, would have to vote to ban it from both, and initially M-Sab on Ghost alone could possibly warrant that in my opinion. Mimikyu is an incredibly strong offensive addition to back up M-Sab and having this new offensive element of being able to take a hit for free essentially exacerbates the problems that M-Sab. Prankster burns to initially wear down offensive threats making it easier for the core of Jelli + Dou + Gourg/Dhelm/(ok Decuideye I'll put you here too I guess I know some people have a soft spot for you). After Mega, Magic Bounce and the combination of Mimikyu's ability make it incredibly difficult to ever wear down.

I will end this by saying, however, that I think there are far more imposing mons in the metagame. Not going to name any since I don't want to detract from the post, but I do think there are other things worth looking at. Any replays on this topic are more than welcome, I haven't saved any yet for games I've spectated or my own that I've played, still doing a lot of building, refining, etc. Also like I said, while I maybe have really sounded pro ban with this, all I wanted to get out there is that to some extent I have the same feeling that a lot of pro ban people had last gen and I think that as a community we have to definitely look at M-Sab at some point this gen and it needs to be on our list, even if it is down a bit in priority.

 

[Haaku.]

:)
Its decem, and I've come to write something about Sableye-Mega.

Mega Sableye is a really nice check to the dark types in this Metagame. With Aegislash gone, Mega Sableye is one of the centralizing threats in the Ghost Metagame, due to the fact that it can tank a few hits and fire a will o' the wisp in return. Mega Sableye turns some of the sturdiest of walls to its own setup fodder.

Sableye-Mega @ Sablenite
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk

- Calm Mind
- Dark Pulse
- Recover
- Will-O-Wisp
This is the traditional Sableye-Mega set that most of stall fears. Setup calm mind on Stealth rockers, Burn physical attackers. Really nice set if you know how to manage. Snarl can be used over Dark Pulse for the special attack drop. Max HP and Defense for those nasty physical attackers on dark.

Here are the two pivots that Sableye can resort to.

Jellicent @ Leftovers
Ability: Cursed Body
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk

- Scald
- Acid Armor
- Toxic
- Recover
Jellicent is one of the best special defense walls in the game. Cursed body can really fuck the opposing team up, as a scarfed or specs pokemon doesn't really like its only move disabled. Set up Acid Armour on a special attacker, and toxic the whole team. Fish for burns with scald, simple as that. Taunt can be used over Acid Armor if you really hate chansey.

Gourgeist-Super @ Leftovers
Ability: Frisk
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk

- Foul Play
- Will-O-Wisp
- Leech Seed
- Synthesis

Gourgeist is known mostly to ghost players as Jellicent's physical counterpart. It gets status moves such as Will o' the wisp and Leech Seed to cripple opposing pokemon's physical side and turn the 'mon into stall bait for Jellicent. Prior to the unbanning of Mega Sableye I used a magic coat set to keep hazards off of my side of the field. Now that Mega Sableye is here, in order to prevent status & hazards off you could just make the switch into Mega Sableye. Leech seed could be for supporting Mega Sableye's longlivity and help bring back to life a weakened jellicent. Gourgeist's grass typing also allows it to absorb spore and act as a solid check to Breloom and other grass 'mons such as Tapu Bulu, which would shit wood hammers all over the ghost meta like crazy otherwise. Foul play punishes the opponent's setup mons, such as D dancers and Swords Dancers.

Lets say your MegaSab is out and the guy decides to go into banded Excadrill/Specs Keldeo. You know Mega Sableye cannot take a hit, so you pivot into Gourgeist/Jellicent, who can eat up the incoming attack very nicely. Gourgeist and Jellicent would either force the opponent to switch either into A: a toxic user or B: a Special(Gourgeist)/Physical(Jellicent) attacker. If he sends out a toxic user, you can pivot either of the two walls into Mega Sableye, which bounces the toxic back and then sets up CM, or just cripples more shit. If it happens to land a burn on the physical attacker, congrats on jelli stalling out the day. If its a special attacker that comes in, then stack up those CMs. If you feel like Mega Sableye is about to get KO'd, just pivot to either Jellicent or Gourgeist depending on the mon.
This creates a core that is really difficult to break since each member of the core covers weaknesses of the other two members.
:0 Ayy I finished it. Thanks for reading this I guess and I hope you found this userful

To add to this, the core works beautifully along with some offensive tools. I think Ghost can go fully balanced this gen, and not only that, it's able to check Dark this gen better than ever (Still struggles, but not as much as previous gens) with the addition of Mimikyu which is a surprisingly good sweeper with Swords Dance, Play Rough, Shadow Sneak, and other tools like Z-splash. Let me bring up another nice core on Ghost:

This core is a version of the "Wonder Trio" seen last gen, only now available on Monotype thanks to Dhelmise. Most are familiar with what it does already: Sableye bounces back the status that kills Shedinja, and the new Dhelmise Rapid Spins hazards that Sableye can't.

The way the core works is that Mega Sableye bounces back the hazard/status that trouble Shedinja, and to an extent Dhelmise. Dhelmise is an interesting new Pokemon: it's the first Ghost type with Rapid Spin, which completes the core perfectly. Shedinja checks most of the Fairy types that trouble Sableye, and especially stops Azumarill, Kyurem-B, Kartana, and other notable attackers that previously powered through Ghost with ease. Lastly, it builds momentum thanks to Shedinja's slow Baton Pass that can give you the edge against Offense. I haven't tried this core very much, but it's very good against certain matchups. Thoughts?

(Sorry if I am posting too much, not sure if that's a good/bad thing)

 

[Bitana]

All right, just gonna toss in my two cents after laddering for a little while.

As expected after the unbans, Steel is pretty common on the ladder, using things from Mega Metagross (which we all know) to new things, like Kartana and Celesteela.
(Although the latter has to compete with Skarmory for a spot, which actually has made for some more original teams when compared to gen 6)

Kartana is a pretty controversial Pokemon, mostly because of the fact that we didn't really know how it was gonna do before the ladder was updated to Gen 7. It's also lacking in some key areas that enables it to not be considered as broken as all of the quickbanned pokemon, which has made for some pretty interesting laddering and arguments on the Showdown! Monotype chat.

One key fact when it comes to talking about Kartana is it's coverage, or lack thereof. With none of it's moves having over 90 power, most types will probably not struggle as hard as they would against other pokemon of similar strength. (Thinking Gen 6 mega medi and other VERY strong pokemon)

However, the issue with Kartana, in my eyes, is the fact that against all but one of the types that it's STAB is strong against it is an absolute pain to defeat, or even force out!
With most pokemon weak on Water being 2HKO'd by Leaf Blade after rocks (even the infamous Toxapex if it isn't physically defensive), it's really hard to see how the type can handle the scarf set that is run on Steel and sometimes Grass. Alongside this,Ground, a type that used to be considered mid-tier or higher on Gen 6, is forced to run Pokemon ranging from HP Fire 10% Zygarde to Scarf Nidoking in order to attempt to revenge kill Kartana. (Note that most of Ground's physical attackers are not able to OHKO Kartana and are usually OHKO'd right back after its got a boost) As for Ice and Rock, I think it comes without saying that they're either forced to run extremely niche things such as Archeops with Heat Wave under webs, or forced to attempt to win a speed tie utilizing Scarf Alolan Ninetales.

And the scary part is, that isn't even getting into the potential that the Band set has, as it absolutely nukes everything in it's path and, on Grass, has the potential to be just as fast as the Scarf set thanks to sticky webs! Even when considering incredibly bulky Pokemon such as Magearna, Klefki and all but the bulkiest physically defensive Tapu Fini, every single one of them is 2HKO'd by Smart Strike. (As a side note, Kartana can also run a LO SD set, boosting it's sweeping potential even further after weakening the opponents team. This can be specially successful if Grass is using sticky webs alongside it.)

Ok, now that I'm done seeming like a whining child complaining about how his Chansey got 2HKO'd by Specs Hoopa-U Dark Pulse after rocks, there are obvious disadvantages to Kartana. For one, against type's it's weak against it is generally not going to do all that great and even against neutral types, it won't be overwhelming to deal with. It's special bulk is also absolutely horrible, meaning even neutral non-STAB moves are likely to OHKO it. These flaws are what allowed it not to be quickbanned and are perfectly logical, specially if we consider most teams do have special attackers above 109 speed. Alongside this, it's likely that there are some other pokemon that are just or more ban-worthy than Kartana at the moment, yet I honestly think that at the very least, this merits serious discussion, since it discourages anyone from playing any type weak to it that isn't called Fairy. (Which doesn't appreciate it either tbh)

Calcs

252 Atk Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Toxapex: 132-156 (43.4 - 51.3%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Excadrill Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kartana: 220-259 (84.9 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Sand Force Garchomp-Mega Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kartana: 205-243 (79.1 - 93.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Toxapex: 132-156 (43.4 - 51.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and sandstorm damage
252 Atk Kartana Smart Strike vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Bulu: 260-308 (92.5 - 109.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Choice Band Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 240 HP / 176+ Def Garchomp: 225-265 (53.9 - 63.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Kartana Smart Strike vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 195-231 (53.5 - 63.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Kartana Smart Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Klefki: 169-199 (53.1 - 62.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Kartana Smart Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tapu Fini: 144-171 (41.8 - 49.7%) -- 88.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tapu Fini: 372-438 (108.1 - 127.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

[readyletsgo]

Hello all,
I don't really know how to embed animations of pokemon and all that so I will just type this out.

I have been trying to find an electric team with at least a bit of a balance, as I feel like the hyper offense version that everyone uses since SuMo came out has a really slim margin of error. I have been underwhelmed with Golem sadly, but stealth rock is so important in monotype. That lead me back to Stunfisk, because the gosh darn pancake is bulky. Defensive with a helmet/lefties and passing out static to common scarfers like Genesect is a nice setup, and almost always gets rocks down if needed, and can come back to do it again later, unlike golem which tends to explode and that's it.

Obviously the core of Koko and Raichu is crucial. Terrain extender being gone means fewer turns for Raichu, so I did away with nasty plot. I still like being able to switch attacks, so I have been sticking to life orb over choice specs. I found focus blast to be a great coverage so as to not be walled by pokemon like Ferrothorn, and kill problem pokemon like Kyurem. I do admit not having a pivot move is sad, so there is merit to running specs with volt switch. As for Koko, I feel like the special set just wasn't cutting it, with dazzling gleam just not quite doing enough. I feel like special requires a life orb to do any big damage, or using something like fairium-Z, but even then dragons are still a big problem for electric teams. Also, with so many special attackers on electric, I really like to use the great attacking stat of Koko. Though you can't really band him because of a lack of fairy physical stab, having u turn make it easy to pivot him out after setting the terrain/taunting, either to zapdos/stunfisk or to raichu for surfing. Brave bird really helps against the problematic Grass matchup, and provides great neutral coverage to lots of things that resist a wild charge. An electric or Flying Z crystal, I have found, can be a great item for nuking slower opponents and has no recoil, which makes me like it more than something like a life orb, which makes Koko die even faster.

I have found magnezone to be a huge asset on this kind of team with bulky specs. I was doing analytic for a bit, for extra power, but sturdy is just too handy. Steel is such a great type defensively, and in electric terrain, volt switch can massively damage or outright KO non defensive pokemon, especially with rocks out.

To balance the offense, I find Physical Thundy to be a great fit, plus another ground immunity never hurts. Knock off and Superpower are a must, and you can either run choice band with uturn AND thunderpunch with defiant, or run prankster with three of those attacks and twave, but I find that Twave is a lot less useful with the para nerf and 90% accuracy. Currently I run life orb with all 4 attacks and defiant and it has worked out pretty nicely. Yeah, there are times when I wish I had prankster T-wave, but there are also times I am glad I am defiant/Uturn to keep up the volt/switch momentum.

I feel like I am having more success with this group than with the typical golem/koko/raichu/xurk cores that most people run, and which I ran the first few days the game was out. I am typically getting to quarters/semis in our room tours and on the ladder over the past two days I am mid 1300s and sit at 38-17 overall. Of course, it's basically an auto loss to ground and dragon teams, so that hasn't changed from last generation.

Any thoughts from other elec players or anyone else?

Also, in regards to the current metagame - steel is pretty overwhelming, having Megagross and Genesect. I'd have to think that they, kartana, Tapu Lele, and greninja are next on the suspect list?
But just for fun - 0 SpA Stunfisk Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Metagross-Mega: 152-180 (50.4 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO!

 

[MaxtheLax]

Hello all,
I don't really know how to embed animations of pokemon and all that so I will just type this out.

I have been trying to find an electric team with at least a bit of a balance, as I feel like the hyper offense version that everyone uses since SuMo came out has a really slim margin of error. I have been underwhelmed with Golem sadly, but stealth rock is so important in monotype. That lead me back to Stunfisk, because the gosh darn pancake is bulky. Defensive with a helmet/lefties and passing out static to common scarfers like Genesect is a nice setup, and almost always gets rocks down if needed, and can come back to do it again later, unlike golem which tends to explode and that's it.

Obviously the core of Koko and Raichu is crucial. Terrain extender being gone means fewer turns for Raichu, so I did away with nasty plot. I still like being able to switch attacks, so I have been sticking to life orb over choice specs. I found focus blast to be a great coverage so as to not be walled by pokemon like Ferrothorn, and kill problem pokemon like Kyurem. I do admit not having a pivot move is sad, so there is merit to running specs with volt switch. As for Koko, I feel like the special set just wasn't cutting it, with dazzling gleam just not quite doing enough. I feel like special requires a life orb to do any big damage, or using something like fairium-Z, but even then dragons are still a big problem for electric teams. Also, with so many special attackers on electric, I really like to use the great attacking stat of Koko. Though you can't really band him because of a lack of fairy physical stab, having u turn make it easy to pivot him out after setting the terrain/taunting, either to zapdos/stunfisk or to raichu for surfing. Brave bird really helps against the problematic Grass matchup, and provides great neutral coverage to lots of things that resist a wild charge. An electric or Flying Z crystal, I have found, can be a great item for nuking slower opponents and has no recoil, which makes me like it more than something like a life orb, which makes Koko die even faster.

I have found magnezone to be a huge asset on this kind of team with bulky specs. I was doing analytic for a bit, for extra power, but sturdy is just too handy. Steel is such a great type defensively, and in electric terrain, volt switch can massively damage or outright KO non defensive pokemon, especially with rocks out.

To balance the offense, I find Physical Thundy to be a great fit, plus another ground immunity never hurts. Knock off and Superpower are a must, and you can either run choice band with uturn AND thunderpunch with defiant, or run prankster with three of those attacks and twave, but I find that Twave is a lot less useful with the para nerf and 90% accuracy. Currently I run life orb with all 4 attacks and defiant and it has worked out pretty nicely. Yeah, there are times when I wish I had prankster T-wave, but there are also times I am glad I am defiant/Uturn to keep up the volt/switch momentum.

I feel like I am having more success with this group than with the typical golem/koko/raichu/xurk cores that most people run, and which I ran the first few days the game was out. I am typically getting to quarters/semis in our room tours and on the ladder over the past two days I am mid 1300s and sit at 38-17 overall. Of course, it's basically an auto loss to ground and dragon teams, so that hasn't changed from last generation.

Any thoughts from other elec players or anyone else?

Also, in regards to the current metagame - steel is pretty overwhelming, having Megagross and Genesect. I'd have to think that they, kartana, Tapu Lele, and greninja are next on the suspect list?
But just for fun - 0 SpA Stunfisk Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Metagross-Mega: 152-180 (50.4 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO!

As a follow Electric player I can agree with a lot of what you have said, though I am simply a beginner at this. I have yet to run Koko and Raichu simply because I don't know any good sets to run with. I also agree that Magnezone with sturdy has helped me in some of my matches and a Physical Thundy is a good choice now, though I ran a Prankster with T-wave and still had great success with it. I do find Aloan Golem useless to me, and there are no Megas available in Electric which kinda hurts, or at least in my opinion it does. I haven't run any Z-moves just because I don't quite understand them, again I am new to this. As of late I am running a team with Zapdos/Rotom-W/Thundurus/Galvantula/Filler/Filler and have managed to get to 1171, or something of that sort, and have w/l of 12 to 12.

 

[Not Zer0]

The way the core works is that Mega Sableye bounces back the hazard/status that trouble Shedinja, and to an extent Dhelmise. Dhelmise is an interesting new Pokemon: it's the first Ghost type with Rapid Spin, which completes the core perfectly. Shedinja checks most of the Fairy types that trouble Sableye, and especially stops Azumarill, Kyurem-B, Kartana, and other notable attackers that previously powered through Ghost with ease. Lastly, it builds momentum thanks to Shedinja's slow Baton Pass that can give you the edge against Offense. I haven't tried this core very much, but it's very good against certain matchups. Thoughts?
(Sorry if I am posting too much, not sure if that's a good/bad thing)

Shedinja unfortunately does not beat Kyurem-Black as Teravolt bypasses Wonder Guard.

I think the core would be a lot nicer if Shedinja didn't have problems that detract from its ability. Its really slow and its Attack is only base 90, meaning that it has difficulty making significant offensive contributions without setting up first. Mimikyu has the same attack stat but much higher speed, an ability that will always guarantee a setup opportunity, with the same boosting moves and access to Shadow Sneak, just like Shedinja. It could function as a status mon but I feel like its simply outclassed by the wide array of status abusers on Ghost already like Jellicent, Cofagrigus, Mega Sab, and (kind of) Golurk. Its 1 HP stat makes it very vulnerable to passive damage like that from a weather condition. While that may seem like an avoidable hindrance, it means that in matchups like Ground or Ice, where one of the game plans of those types is to keep weather up the entire game, your Shedinja is essentially dead weight. I feel its usage is also severely hindered against types that its already weak to such as Fire or Dark, which tend to pack STAB moves on most if not all their mons, meaning your time to make plays with Shedinja is incredibly limited. Status, as you mentioned, ruins Shedinja, and while having Sab for that is nice it pigeonholes you into playing certain ways to avoid that status or simply abandon a team member. Also, you can never bring in Shedinja while entry hazards are up, meaning that if they slay your Dhelmise and manage to get hazards up you effectively lose 2 mons, although you can use Shedinja as a convenient sack.

Wonder Guard and Baton Pass may give Shedinja a unique niche but you have to ask yourself whether its worth babysitting it that much when you can have a mon that doesn't require the same babysitting to use and can contribute in most situations.

 

[Eien]

Okay, I really want to make sure the community knows where I'm at right now in regards to the next ban wave because I don't think I'm on the same page. I'm not speaking for anyone else on the council, these are just my personal thoughts and what I think of two Steel-types. Regarding Mega Metagross and Kartana, I've noticed a lot of discussion of these Pokemon both in this thread and in the Monotype chatroom, so I think this is something I have to address. Take note of this: I'm only referring to the current metagame. Whether or not a Pokemon is banworthy in the third ban wave is irrelevant to me for the current metagame.

Mega Metagross: Now this is a Pokemon that is apparently "very obviously being banned" and this viewpoint has been repeated by many people. I don't see it at all. What exactly is making Mega Metagross so broken that it needs to be banned? In fact, I remember receiving a lot of criticism for not having banned Mega Metagross in the first ban wave, which included titans like Complete Zygarde, Pheromosa, and Aegislash. People were literally saying that Mega Metagross is a threat on the level of those three, and that just is not something I understand. As it stands, I don't believe Mega Metagross is even worth banning in the second ban wave.

On Psychic teams, why would you ever use this Pokemon? After more testing since my original post, I am even more convinced that Mega Alakazam is not just a good Mega Evolution, but I even believe that it's a superior Pokemon to Mega Metagross. Mega Alakazam's ridiculous Speed tier makes it far more useful against offensive teams, and its Trace lets it check weather and terrain sweepers, and two of the top five types (in my opinion: Dark, Ground, Electric, Fairy, Psychic) use them. Mega Metagross on the other hand... beats Fairy and does just about nothing else. It doesn't help that Jirachi is a very common and useful supportive option that also beats Fairy teams, so I would pretty much never even use Mega Metagross on Psychic teams. Mega Metagross provides just about nothing of worth to the team.

On Steel teams, I still don't know what this is supposed to be used for. It still gets walled by half of Psychic, it still gets destroyed by Zygarde-10% from Dark(even more of a problem when most of Steel is very weak to it), it's still horribly weak to Darkrai on Dark, and it takes a ridiculous amount of damage from Alolan Raichu. I'd sooner use the walled-by-Tapu Lele Mega Scizor, which at least provides momentum and a check to many of the top threats of the tier. It also just gets OHKOed by Kingdra and walled by the defensive Water core. What help does it bring to your team? No idea. I can't think of any, at any rate. Being able to beat Fairy is hardly an impressive resume when your entire team is Steel-type too.

As the host of the Welcome to Sun and Moon tour, I've watched every battle. I have not seen even one instance of Mega Metagross being valuable. It only contributed to one battle because it got critical hits with Meteor Mash. Outside of that, it was completely useless and deadweight in every single battle. So far, in the total of 41 battles played, Mega Metagross was useful in only one game because of luck. And this is the Pokemon that the council was supposed to ban alongside Complete Zygarde? I hope my utter confusion is understandable. It's not that I haven't battled good players with it, it's that it's just not useful and it's just not broken. I've battled on the ladder and none of my teams have any trouble with Mega Metagross. It underperforms in tournament play, and it underperforms in ladder play.

I'm not speaking for any of the other members of the council, but I think my personal position on Mega Metagross is clear. Is it worth banning? I don't think so right now, but feel free to change my view.

Kartana: This is not quite as hated as Mega Metagross, but it still seems to get a lot of attention. I actually understand the argument that want this banned far more than I do for Mega Metagross, but I still don't think it's worth banning quite yet. I've had my eye on it for a while now, but it's just not really that problematic in my opinion. I'm going to focus on Kartana's use on Steel, as its use on Grass is just to exacerbate matchups that Grass teams already win. Kartana is known for being capable of using any of three sets: Choice Band, Swords Dance, and Choice Scarf. I don't really understand why Choice Scarf is being used in the first place, as Steel has access to a great revenge killer and pivot in Choice Scarf Genesect, and Kartana is better off being a great wallbreaker. Either way, I think the reaction to it is a bit over the top.

Water teams can beat some of its sets, I've built a Stall Water team that can never lose to Choice Band or Choice Scarf Kartana no matter what, so I know it's possible to build around it defensively. And it really doesn't even do anything against Swift Swim no matter which set it uses because Kingdra can just OHKO it with Hydro Pump even without rain. (With rain even Scald can OHKO it lol) so it's not even offensively difficult to check. If your build cannot beat Kartana, then make changes if you can. My Stall Water can lose to Swords Dance, but I still have ways to play around that too. I just choose not to build Water teams that can't beat one of its biggest threats, which is a huge part of teambuilding. If you build a team that decides to lose to Kartana, then as far as I can tell, that's a problem with your team.

For Ground teams, neither Choice Band nor Life Orb are particularly threatening because both sets are easily OHKOed by Choice Band Zygarde-10%'s Superpower. This is a Pokemon and set that Ground teams really ought to be running anyway, if they have no other reliable Kartana checks. Another great check is Choice Band Dugtrio, which can trap and take out Kartana with Earthquake after it has taken even one hit from any attack. But even for Choice Scarf Kartana, is it even really that big of a threat? Choice Band Excadrill outspeeds it in the sand and does 85% minimum with Earthquake. That remaining 15% can be made up with by Garchomp's Rough Skin damage. Speaking of which, defensive Garchomp can easily switch into Choice Scarf Kartana's attacks, only being 3HKOed. In fact, Rocky Helmet Garchomp deals 27% HP on-hit, and with Stealth Rock, Kartana literally kills itself if Garchomp keeps switching into its attacks. I don't see how Kartana is this horrible monster that Ground teams have 0 chance at beating. Completely the opposite. Ground teams can beat two of its sets very reliably, and even the third is hardly impossible to handle. I do think Kartana is very likely to be broken, but in the current metagame I just don't see it being worth a ban.

So I hope it's clear what I'm thinking. I don't believe either Mega Metagross or Kartana are banworthy as of right now. If you disagree, please let me know why. I have read all of the previous arguments and am not convinced by any of them yet. In my experience I don't see either of them being nearly as problematic as they're being described as. I do value your input greatly, and that's why I'm posting here asking for reasons why they should be banned in this second wave.

 

[Bitana]

I love how no mention is made for Rock and Ice since they aren't REAL types.

I'll make an actual post later, I just wanted to mention that XD.

 

[Haaku.]

Mega Metagross: Now this is a Pokemon that is apparently "very obviously being banned" and this viewpoint has been repeated by many people. I don't see it at all. What exactly is making Mega Metagross so broken that it needs to be banned? In fact, I remember receiving a lot of criticism for not having banned Mega Metagross in the first ban wave, which included titans like Complete Zygarde, Pheromosa, and Aegislash. People were literally saying that Mega Metagross is a threat on the level of those three, and that just is not something I understand. As it stands, I don't believe Mega Metagross is even worth banning in the second ban wave.

I agree wholeheartedly that Mega Metagross is not as broken in this gen as the last, but I think your post is undermining it a little. It is still very much able to break the same common threats it did last gen, except now it can do it at an instant 350 speed. Alakazam's definitely improved, and I am leaning on believing they're on par with each other, but it's a bit of an overstatement to just say Mega Alakazam is better outright. Some new Pokemon have rose in usage, and some new added, that Metagross now struggles with. But as I said, the new change in the Megas' Speed actually benefits Metagross more (262 -> 350) than Alakazam (372-> 438). I do agree with you that Metagross is not clearly broken, if at all. As to its usage on Steel - the type can't run all three of Kartana, Genesect, and Scizor for obvious reasons, so it usually forgoes Scizor for the new Kartana, meaning the mega goes to Metagross. It's a decent Fighting check if you run Zen Headbutt, and offers coverage that many Steel mons don't have in the elemental punches + Hammer Arm. Kartana I won't bring up because I'm fully on board with you on that one.

I love how no mention is made for Rock and Ice since they aren't REAL types.

I'll make an actual post later, I just wanted to mention that XD.

I did made a post specifically speaking about Rock in general, but absolutely feel free to add to that, or make Ice. Up to you.

Shedinja unfortunately does not beat Kyurem-Black as Teravolt bypasses Wonder Guard.

You're right, that was a mistake. As for the rest of the post, they're all good points, and the core works better in OU than mono, but still worth pointing out that this now exists.

 

[superorange42]

Fairy got a lot of new toys, but still has a very obvious hole in the lack of access to strong fire or ground coverage. Magearna and Tapu Bulu do give you some reliable Fighting options on the special and physical sides which is nice, but that's pretty much it.

 

[Riukken]

I didn't see it brought up anywhere, but in my opinion Gengar losing Levitate makes him actually quite useful. It allows you to build him defensively against Ground-type attacks and teams, something that Poison always had trouble against.

Gengar @ Focus Sash
Ability: Cursed Body
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Counter
- Destiny Bond
- Shadow Ball / Sludge Bomb
- Taunt

With Counter and Focus Sash, Gengar can take an Earthquake and return double the damage resulting in a OHKO. Destiny Bond out of 1 HP makes it impossible to use U-Turn or Volt Switch on and Taunt forces them to attack. The idea is you want Gengar as fragile as possible so Counter will always result in a OHKO - this is especially a handy way to deal with Gliscor, a wall Poison teams commonly struggle against due to their lack of available Ice-type moves.

0 Atk Gliscor Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 234-276 (89.6 - 105.7%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO -- 468-552 damage on Counter, 100% chance to OHKO

 

[readyletsgo]

So then what is most likely to see the ban hammer in the near future? Genesect?

 

[Vid]

These are my thoughts not the council's
A lot of people are talking about Steel being "too good", but they are only looking at Mega Metagross and Kartana as the main issues (which they very well could be) The main issue I have is Genesect has been left out of conversation when almost every Steel team in Sun and Moon utilizes it

Overview
Genesect as a Pokemon is simply blessed. Looking at its stats Genesect has Base 120 Attack and Base 120 Special Attack, which are well above average. On top its great offensive stats of its physical and special movepull is superb. (Physical side U-turn, Blaze Kick, Extreme Speed, Iron Head are the most viable. Special Side Ice Beam, Bug Buzz, Flamethrower, Thunderbolt, Flash Cannon, and Energy Ball being the most viable.) On Steel typically Choice Scarf is the best because it allows Genesect to check faster threats, such as Greninja and Zygrade-10%(Zygrade 10% is typically something that Genesect shuts down). But other sets are viable such Choice Band and Expert Belt(Bluff Choice Scarf) because Genesect is extremely versatile, meaning that very few Pokemon can actually deal with Genesect. One of the best answers to Genesect is typically Specially Defensive Heatran, which is only on Steel and Fire. Genesect also has set up moves in Shift Gear and Rock Polish(Rock Polish is used so you don't need to use Shiny Genesect event on a fully special variant + increasing Foul Play's damage isn't good on fully Special set) (Also forces Genesect to run Hasty Nature). Another major contributor Genesect being a menace is Download allowing to to boost its Attack or Special Attack on switch in depending on the foe's weaker defense. Genesect is extremely versatile because of its ability to run multiple moves, equally good offensive stats, and the ability to run multiple sets effectively.
Genesect in the current Metagame
The introduction of many new fairy types and many slower Pokemon makes Genesect a bigger nuisance. Genesect in XY was annoying to deal with because of its versatility but nothing really viable has been released in Sun and Moon can shut it down. I see a small differences between XY Genesect and Sun and Moon Genesect, one of them being Genesect having additional partners in Mega Metagross, Kartana, Magearna, and Celesteela. Genesect has the movepull that push Steel teams to the edge. Genesect domiantes the current metagame with a lower speed standard and a versatile movepull.

Mega Metagross and Kartana have been hot topics for quick bans and I'd like to address how they are enhanced by Genesect immensely making them seem better than they actually are. Just to clear this up, I'm not saying Mega Metagross and Kartana are bad or not quick ban worthy.

Simply put Mega Metagross appreciates Genesect's ability to punish switches with U-turn. While Mega Metagross can easily outspeed and OHKO many Pokemon because of New Mega Evolution mechanics(allowing it have the base 110 speed during the turn in Mega evolves). However, Mega Metagross also needs to run Hammer Arm to break through certain Steel-Types, namely Ferrothorn. This in turn reduces Mega Metagross' speed which is one of major appeals of Mega Metagross. Genesect has Flamethrower which eliminates most Steel-types that would otherwise wall Mega Metagross or force it to run Hammer Arm. Mega Metagross gets a boost, although a small one from Genesect.

Kartana immensely appreciates Genesect's coverage moves. Kartana has the ability to sweep Ground and Water teams once their Grass resist is gone. Genesect simply gets rid of the Grass resits on Water and Ground with Thunderbolt and Ice Beam respectively. For example Volcanion on Water is something that can take a hit and OHKO Kartana(check it). However, Genesect OHKOs Volcanion with Thunderbolt meaning that Kartana has an easy path to sweep. On Ground Pokemon naively Mega Garchomp which would normally be able to take at hit and OHKO Kartana, Genesect checks with Ice Beam. Kartana seems like it is enjoying the immense amount of good offensive and defensive teammates enhancing its abilities above what they should be.
Conclusion
The dominance of Steel should be closely monitored by the council because an unbalanced metagame is not what the council wants. Removing Genesect is the most direct nerf to Steel because simply it does something in almost every matchup. Genesect seems to be the most logical Pokemon to ban if Steel teams continue to dominate as they have in the first few days of the Sun and Moon Monotype ladder. However, if Steel teams continue to dominate Mega Metagross and Kartana should be looked at more closely.

 

[Bitana]

Oh, I wasn't clear, my bad. I meant that Eien's thoughts about Kartana and Metagross simply talk about how Metagross hasn't been useful on any game, and Kartana being checked by some Pokemon in Ground and Water but do not mention Rock or Ice at all, maybe because he thinks those types lose the matchup anyway?

I didn't mean to imply that Rock hadn't been mentioned at all on this thread :)

 

[Gerard]

How is Metagross worst than Scizor though?

 

[1 True Lycan]

Okay, I really want to make sure the community knows where I'm at right now in regards to the next ban wave because I don't think I'm on the same page. I'm not speaking for anyone else on the council, these are just my personal thoughts and what I think of two Steel-types. Regarding Mega Metagross and Kartana, I've noticed a lot of discussion of these Pokemon both in this thread and in the Monotype chatroom, so I think this is something I have to address. Take note of this: I'm only referring to the current metagame. Whether or not a Pokemon is banworthy in the third ban wave is irrelevant to me for the current metagame.

Mega Metagross: Now this is a Pokemon that is apparently "very obviously being banned" and this viewpoint has been repeated by many people. I don't see it at all. What exactly is making Mega Metagross so broken that it needs to be banned? In fact, I remember receiving a lot of criticism for not having banned Mega Metagross in the first ban wave, which included titans like Complete Zygarde, Pheromosa, and Aegislash. People were literally saying that Mega Metagross is a threat on the level of those three, and that just is not something I understand. As it stands, I don't believe Mega Metagross is even worth banning in the second ban wave.

On Psychic teams, why would you ever use this Pokemon? After more testing since my original post, I am even more convinced that Mega Alakazam is not just a good Mega Evolution, but I even believe that it's a superior Pokemon to Mega Metagross. Mega Alakazam's ridiculous Speed tier makes it far more useful against offensive teams, and its Trace lets it check weather and terrain sweepers, and two of the top five types (in my opinion: Dark, Ground, Electric, Fairy, Psychic) use them. Mega Metagross on the other hand... beats Fairy and does just about nothing else. It doesn't help that Jirachi is a very common and useful supportive option that also beats Fairy teams, so I would pretty much never even use Mega Metagross on Psychic teams. Mega Metagross provides just about nothing of worth to the team.

On Steel teams, I still don't know what this is supposed to be used for. It still gets walled by half of Psychic, it still gets destroyed by Zygarde-10% from Dark(even more of a problem when most of Steel is very weak to it), it's still horribly weak to Darkrai on Dark, and it takes a ridiculous amount of damage from Alolan Raichu. I'd sooner use the walled-by-Tapu Lele Mega Scizor, which at least provides momentum and a check to many of the top threats of the tier. It also just gets OHKOed by Kingdra and walled by the defensive Water core. What help does it bring to your team? No idea. I can't think of any, at any rate. Being able to beat Fairy is hardly an impressive resume when your entire team is Steel-type too.

As the host of the Welcome to Sun and Moon tour, I've watched every battle. I have not seen even one instance of Mega Metagross being valuable. It only contributed to one battle because it got critical hits with Meteor Mash. Outside of that, it was completely useless and deadweight in every single battle. So far, in the total of 41 battles played, Mega Metagross was useful in only one game because of luck. And this is the Pokemon that the council was supposed to ban alongside Complete Zygarde? I hope my utter confusion is understandable. It's not that I haven't battled good players with it, it's that it's just not useful and it's just not broken. I've battled on the ladder and none of my teams have any trouble with Mega Metagross. It underperforms in tournament play, and it underperforms in ladder play.

I'm not speaking for any of the other members of the council, but I think my personal position on Mega Metagross is clear. Is it worth banning? I don't think so right now, but feel free to change my view.

"Mega Metagross on the other hand... beats Fairy and does just about nothing else." I disagree, with a moveset of zen headbutt, meteor mash, ice punch and hammer arm, it can decimate grass, ice, rock, poison, dragon and fairy. That's 6 types which have to sac a mon each time it comes in.

Calcs+Thoughts vs Grass

252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Hammer Arm vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 206-244 (58.5 - 69.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Cradily: 422-500 (112.2 - 132.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Zen Headbutt vs. 248 HP / 96+ Def Venusaur-Mega: 260-308 (71.6 - 84.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Gourgeist-Large: 166-196 (46.8 - 55.3%) -- 17.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (Needs rocks to 2hko)

Metagross can be worn down with helmet damage and a bit of chip from hp fire or something, but these calcs show it hugely threatens grass and shows grass must sac 2-3 pokemon vs a well played metagross, especially considering it can only be revenge killed by a scarfer because its so fast.

Ice and Rock

No switchins. Both types could potentially revenge kill, but needs scarfers which both steel and psychic have easy switchins to (barring weavile/scarf ttar vs psychic).

Calcs+Thoughts vs Poison

252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Zen Headbutt vs. 248 HP / 96+ Def Venusaur-Mega: 260-308 (71.6 - 84.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Meteor Mash vs. 220 HP / 0 Def Muk: 262-310 (64.5 - 76.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Again, Metagross outspeeds everything and can only be revenge killed.

I got bored but basically its a similar story for dragon and fairy.

Mega Metagross can definitely be worn down due to chip damage and not being able to 0hko certain pokemon, but overall I feel that it is hugely threatening to a large number of types. The fact that these types often need a scarfer just to revenge kill makes it a bit too strong for the metagame in my opinion. Ban.

I think we can wait a while for Kartana, it is certainly threatening but it can be dealt with imo. Genesect is an interesting one but I think at the moment it can stay because most types have mons to deal with it. Genesect's ability to U Turn out on threats and gain momentum is still very good but from personal experience I haven't yet found it to be broken.

Edit: Forgot to mention Metagross also decimates fighting teams, shoutout ientei for reminding me

 

[Endal]

I heavily agree with iVid on his view of Genesect. As he said pretty much everything that needs to be said about it, I'll just give an example of me personally watching this pokemon dominate.
I was watching a friend of mine (pretty good player) ladder with ground and he met a steel team with genesect. He just started laddering and we were both under the impression that this would be a relatively win. It was. Not for us however, as our opponent played their genesect amazingly and just destroyed us. The thing is, with a +1 spc atk download boost, scarf genesect will 2hko pretty much everything on ground with ice beam or energy ball. We had to let our hippo take 90 to get in the only pokemon faster than genesect on our team which was our excadrill. (Which is probably the only thing that outspeeds genesect on ground bar like scarf garchomp) But of course being steel, they had an easy switch into skarmory. (Banded Excadrill's probably bad while genesects around btw) They just predicted us to switch out and doubled out back into genesect to pick up another kill. Rinse and repeat, it was pretty much a beatdown. As evident by another beatdown I witnessed from Miyoka's tour match, It's safe to say this pokemon needs to go.

 

[juleocesar]

I would like to bring here thoughts about a certain Pokemon:

Darkrai was one of the Pokemon who caught my attention the most after it got unbanned. Dark Void's accuracy nerf and its somewhat poor typing might justify its current unbanned state, but I really dislike its ability to completely destroy teams after it sets up, especially with Z-Hypnosis increasing speed by one stage, further increasing its effectiveness with Bad Dreams and other setup moves (Nasty Plot, for example). You could argue about Hypnosis accuracy as well, but this would probably be the reason I would deem it uncompetitive because the matches are pretty much reliant on whether your sleep inducing move lands. If it does, the player using it instantly gains massive advantage being able to setup and punish the opposing side easily (pretty much what Darkrai already did in the previous generations with the only added difference of Z-moves increasing its speed, further amplifying its sweep potential). Its success on Dark teams both in ladder and tournament play shows how strong Darkrai is regardless of the accuracy of its moves, because the risk-reward factor is just too big to pass up. Hopefully it will get banned for the better of the metagame, but I am interested about the community's opinion as a whole on this (incluiding the council's).

 

[Acast]

It's funny you should bring up Darkrai, because that's pretty much how the council feels as well. We just finished voting on our second round of quickbans. Here are the results:

Darkrai: Ban (7/7 voted ban)
Genesect: Ban (5/7 voted ban, 2 voted wait)
Tapu Lele: Wait (2/7 voted ban, 5 voted wait)
Greninja: Wait (2/7 voted ban, 5 voted wait)
Metagrossite: Wait (7/7 voted wait)
Kartana: Wait (7/7 voted wait)

Tagging The Immortal to implement the Darkrai and Genesect bans please.

 

[Hammy]

I think the council got it right with this round of quick bans but that's not what I wanted to post about. I wanted to see what other people and the council think about all of these z moves. Before Sumos release I expected them to be kinda dumb and broken and now that I have had some time to see them in action i think that they are pretty dumb. The unpredictability and ridiculous power of some of these moves makes it nearly impossible to prep for. I personally, would love to see them go but I wanted to see if any other people shared my thoughts on them or disagreed.

 

[czim]

I personally dislike z-moves as a whole but none of them are as broken as z-belly drum right now. Azumarill was already an extremely good abuser of it in ORAS and now it's just plain ridiculously easy to set up. I just think that it isn't so glaring atm simply because of the steel dominance and fairy being slightly underused, especially with all the broken stuff like genesect and kartana in the meta, but we'll definitely see its potential once the meta settles a bit.

 

[Balto]

I personally dislike z-moves as a whole but none of them are as broken as z-belly drum right now. Azumarill was already an extremely good abuser of it in ORAS and now it's just plain ridiculously easy to set up. I just think that it isn't so glaring atm simply because of the steel dominance and fairy being slightly underused, especially with all the broken stuff like genesect and kartana in the meta, but we'll definitely see its potential once the meta settles a bit.

I haven't really seen an issue with z-drum yet, on azu in particular. While it becomes easier to setup with azu due to the pre BD recovery, you're still limited at 50% hp. Overall I've found sitrus to be more consistent, and actually a little better in terms of just taking hits to allow setup. Post bans I could see z drum azu improving but, i don't really see it going anywhere near the 'broken' category.

 

[Paleo]

I personally dislike z-moves as a whole but none of them are as broken as z-belly drum right now. Azumarill was already an extremely good abuser of it in ORAS and now it's just plain ridiculously easy to set up. I just think that it isn't so glaring atm simply because of the steel dominance and fairy being slightly underused, especially with all the broken stuff like genesect and kartana in the meta, but we'll definitely see its potential once the meta settles a bit.

I get that being able to BD from anywhere its a buff to belly drum, but I don't see it as big enough to make z belly drum inherently broken. Sure youd need to ohko it to stop it from actually setting up, but this wasn't the main way of beating it last gen. The fact that there are simple checks to an already setup azumarill at +6 doesnt make it ridiculous, just like last gen with sitrus berry. Genesect being banned (kartana isnt guaranteed to be banned so u might have to wait a long time lol) shouldn't even change that. The belly drum buff only punishes faster mons, and for faster mons azumarill can still be taunted. Starting at 75pct with a sitrus berry could even be better, but that's another entire debate. Just like what balto said, I dont really see it going anywhere near the 'broken' category, but ofc I could be surprised and it ends up being busted.

Also even if zbelly drum azumarill was broken, then azumarill would just be banned and not the z move (which would be normalinium z ig?) or the complex ban of belly drum + normalinium z which is also just beating around the bush.

 

[czim]

I get that being able to BD from anywhere its a buff to belly drum, but I don't see it as big enough to make z belly drum inherently broken. Sure youd need to ohko it to stop it from actually setting up, but this wasn't the main way of beating it last gen. The fact that there are simple checks to an already setup azumarill at +6 doesnt make it ridiculous, just like last gen with sitrus berry. Genesect being banned (kartana isnt guaranteed to be banned so u might have to wait a long time lol) shouldn't even change that. The belly drum buff only punishes faster mons, and for faster mons azumarill can still be taunted. Starting at 75pct with a sitrus berry could even be better, but that's another entire debate. Just like what balto said, I dont really see it going anywhere near the 'broken' category, but ofc I could be surprised and it ends up being busted.

Also even if zbelly drum azumarill was broken, then azumarill would just be banned and not the z move (which would be normalinium z ig?) or the complex ban of belly drum + normalinium z which is also just beating around the bush.

I personally feel like you're understimating azumarill's power with +6, a lot of types usually relied on offensively checking it, damaging it on the BD turn and then trying to revenge kill it with priority/something that could take a hit and KO back. Being slow and with basically a guaranteed 50% health after setting up on anything faster (especially with klefki's support) this thing can be dead scary for most types that don't have a very solid water check (that can deal with azu) or a bulky phazer/unaware mon. But yea, I can be wrong aswell and sitrus definitely still has its uses, I just feel that this is completely underrated atm.

 

[juleocesar]

I haven't really seen an issue with z-drum yet, on azu in particular. While it becomes easier to setup with azu due to the pre BD recovery, you're still limited at 50% hp. Overall I've found sitrus to be more consistent, and actually a little better in terms of just taking hits to allow setup. Post bans I could see z drum azu improving but, i don't really see it going anywhere near the 'broken' category.

In fact, Sitrus Berry Azumarill is only more effective than Z-Belly Drum when Azumarill is with 75% health or higher in the turn it sets Belly Drum, which is already difficult to keep against nearly every offensive presence in the metagame. Z-BDrum is more consistent in the sense it works well against nearly every offensive presence, which you should be losing health, and also allows Belly Drum to be used even when Azumarill is below half health remaining, should it survive the hit from its opponent.

As for Z-moves in general, I personally don't think any of them are broken at the moment (that includes Azumarill's case). I am quite surprised because I thought Z-moves would be way more overpowered as they actually are, but considering you have to give up an item slot and possibly restrict yourself in movesets (take Porygon-Z for example, which needs to have the move Conversion to actually use its Z-move effectively), I believe the metagame will be able to adapt to them just fine, especially now with Baton Pass clause restricting previously overpowered strategies (like the combination of Celebrate + BPass enabling multiple sweeps at once).