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Rutgers student commits suicide after being spied on
- Thread starter YoshiX
- Start date
Your logic here is baffling. Punishing someone because they caused someone else to kill themselves is "glorifying" suicide? I'm sorry, but that makes absolutely no sense. Here's something that you should consider: Tyler would not have killed himself unless Ravi recorded the video and posted it on the internet. If that doesn't mean Ravi is at least partially responsbile for Tyler's death, then I don't know what does.
Do you seriously think that someone would go from "My life is wonderful" to "Imma go kill myself" just because of one video?
EDIT: And if it had not been for the video, who's to say that Tyler would definitely not have killed himself because of some other distressing event that might not even have had any direct relevance to him?
Second point is completely baseless and irrelevant (pure conjecture), and yes honestly I do think that one event can drastically affect someone's outlook on life if it is traumatizing enough.
So you don't think the suicide had anything to do with the systematic societal ostracism, humiliation, and induced self-loathing that comes with being homosexual in America? If you combine that with an already depressed mental state, suicide is almost an eventuality. This is the reason why homosexuals attempt suicide at a rate 4 times that of heterosexuals.
He was going to kill himself eventually if something like this happened later. he was a walking time bomb.What makes no sense is charging someone for something they didn't do which is what you want to happen. Totally asinine.
How can you say that he was going to kill himself? Were you inside of his head? Did you know his every thought? I highly doubt it, and as far as I know there has been no evidence to show that he had even contemplated suicide before this. It seems incredibly arrogant of you (and downright absurd to be honest) to assume that you know exactly what another man is thinking.
The truly asinine thing is that you're defending someone who took sadistic glee in torturing another person. As far as I'm concerned, Ravi proved himself to be a terribly evil and vile human being when he went out of his way to publicly humiliate and degrade another person, someone who as far as I know had done nothing of the sort to him. The world needs less people like this, and there's no arguing with that.
Where is this evidence that Tyler was previously depressed? Am I just not seeing it or is everyone assuming they know how he was feeling? Also, your stance on this issue seems very confusing. You go on about how homosexuals are ostracized in American society, but then don't want to blame this man for further spreading that hatred? I think it's quite obvious that Ravi had nothing but negative intentions when he recorded and posted the video. Also, like the other poster, you are assuming that Tyler was going to commit suicide. While there are many homosexuals who attempt suicide, there are also many who do not. It seems very wrong of you to outright assume that Tyler would have been one of the ones who did attempt.
People go out of their way all the time to degrade or humiliate other people, that does not make them monsters or "terribly evil and vile"...it makes them human. I'm not condoning either the act or "taking sadistic pleasure in it" (odd that you tell Curtains he can't possibly know what is in another person's head and then superimpose your own beliefs onto Ravi in the exact same setting), but the fact is he is simply a mean person, which god knows we have a ton of. Yes it would be nice if everyone could get along, but the fact is that Ravi cannot be held responsible for what is, as I think everyone should agree, a severe, severe overreaction. Ravi should be held responsible just the same as if he had done what he actually did: pull a cruel prank on a fellow student. This shit happens thousands of times a year throughout the country, and it is completely unreasonable of anyone to expect Ravi to have known what his roommate was going to do, or to demonize him for what happened. That doesn't make what he did just or right, it just doesn't make it evil or, honestly, at all out of the ordinary. Yes, that is probably a sign of a sick society, but that is how things are at the moment.
Can you give an example of a "traumatizing enough" event? I will not accept this particular case as an example because then your argument will become circular.
I actually thought that someone would point out that I did indeed act as though I knew what he was thinking, and although I feel that argument has some validity to it, I also think that his intent was very obvious from his actions. I have not seen any evidence at this point that indicates that Tyler was contemplating suicide prior to this event, so I suppose I should have been more clear on what I meant. I agree with much of what you said, but I think that he does need to be punished. I agree that our society is terrible, and it isn't going to change if we let the people who do these things get away unpunished and allow them to continue behaving this way. I do disagree with your assesment of his actions, but that is just a matter of personal opinion. I think that there is nothing more base than the intentional harming of another human being, whether it be mentally, physically, emotionally, or otherwise (obviously within reason, as there is the problem of people exaggerating/feigning injury for profit). This isn't a matter of philosophy or morals, it is simply logic: if one has done no harm to you, then why do you feel the need to bring harm to him? It truly baffles me how evil some people in this world can behave.
Rape, death of a close family member (children especially), etc. In this case, the victim experienced worldwide shame and disgrace. How would you feel if everywhere you went, every single person laughed and made fun of you? You can pretend that it wouldn't affect you, but there is simply no human who can completely ignore the words and actions of others. Now, whether or not it would drive you to kill yourself is another matter, but the truth is that Ravi most certainly contributed at least partially to Tyler's decision to commit suicide.
im not defending anyone at all. The guy that pranked him deserves maximum punishment for his actions. But No punishment for his death besides maybe compensation to the family or something. Two separate issues here. The pranking and the suicide.Your letting your emotions get the best of true logic.He didn't kill anyone. Tyler killed himself.So why should the guy get charged with murder? This is what tyler wanted. Payback. Now if he gets charged with murder then other people that want revenge will kill themselves too to get payback. This is what i call glorifying suicide.Tyler got what he wanted. Its a chain reaction. One guy does it then another then another. I think its called the suicide effect or something? Not sure.
The way you put it makes it seem like, if anything, it is the constant ridicule that drove Tyler to suicide, not the uploading of the video.
Please remember also that correlation =/= causation.
I didn't say anything about Ravi, so that part of your argument is a strawman. For what it's worth, I think he should be charged with invasion of privacy and maybe harassment, but a "hate crime" charge is ludicrous, and "murder" even more so. Ravi wasn't spreading hatred, he was being an immature douche who wanted amusement at someone's expense. The two are different.
It's not wrong for me at all to assume that Tyler would have at least attempted suicide, given that he actually successfully completed the act, and by self-defenestration no less, a very uncommon method of suicide. What makes self-defenestration interesting is that it is a very quantized method of suicide: it's all or nothing, and has an almost 100% chance of success. It's not like taking pills, where you take one, then another, then another with the eventual hope of dying (and eventually vomit them back up and get taken to a mental hospital). Pills are the predominate method that most people attempting suicide use, because it is probably the only non-quantized method, and you would only do it if you were tentative about the whole deal to begin with. Therefore if Clementi had taken pills to kill himself, I would have considered Ravi to have a substantial degree of agency in the state of affairs. But since he doesn't, I can conclude that Clementi was probably in poor shape to begin with.
The first part of my post was not directed to you, it was directed to the other person that I quoted above it. Sorry for the confusion.
As for your response, my knowledge of suicide methods is far less extensive than yours, so I was not aware of the difference indicated between methods. As such, I will not comment on the matter, as doing so would likely just lead to me embarassing myself.
I was very alarmed when I heard this. I am 100% for homosexuals. Whats wrong with them? As long as they don't start sexually harassing you, I really don't see a problem as to why they cannot live peacefully among us. I also don't know this "invasion" thing, where the roommate spied on him, and broadcast this online. This was terrible, this is terrible, and I really hope nothing similar to this will ever happen again.
I read this in a Time magazine. 3 other boys (two aged 13, one aged 15) also commit suicide because of bullying, and because others believed them to be homosexuals. One of them even played Pokemon as stated in the article.
I read this in a Time magazine. 3 other boys (two aged 13, one aged 15) also commit suicide because of bullying, and because others believed them to be homosexuals. One of them even played Pokemon as stated in the article.
No need to single out America like it's special there-- I'm certain you could get a much bigger helping of ostracism and humiliation in other countries . . . you know, like Japan? IMO, America is definitely one of the more liberal countries. In the U.S., at least we let you talk and might listen. Here in Japan, we shall ask you take your koujinshugi (culture supporting individuality), your personal needs, and keep them to yourself. :P
Dude I didn't mean to single out America, but you must admit that being homosexual matters a lot more in America than in the Netherlands or Sweden, for example.
Also, some commentators have mentioned Ravi's Indian culture as an explanation for his actions, an explanation that I find appalling. If Ravi had been American, commentators would have just called it "douchy fratboy stuff" and left it at that. And although I have no proof, I conjecture that racism may partially be motivating the vitriol directed against Ravi.
Yeah, I know you weren't intentionally singling out America. I just find it strange to say things like "here in America we're not accepting of Homosexuals" when in the wider scope of things we really are more accepting relative to the vast majority of <more culturally conservative> nations. You got to admit, Netherlands or Sweden are in the minority.
This is just my relative view point as a guy who lives in possibly the most culturally conservative first world country in the world (unless you identify India a first world country-- then yeah they win). Though, I am planning to move back to America-- to Houston Texas.
At least the U.S. has actually has a political party that cares about homosexuals. Japan is way away from there. [/end tangent]
This is just my relative view point as a guy who lives in possibly the most culturally conservative first world country in the world (unless you identify India a first world country-- then yeah they win). Though, I am planning to move back to America-- to Houston Texas.
At least the U.S. has actually has a political party that cares about homosexuals. Japan is way away from there. [/end tangent]
This is probably the best thing that's been said in this thread to date.
What Ravi did was a be a dick. It happened to lead to Tyler's suicide but people wanting the throw the fucking book at Ravi is just... it doesn't make sense.
I've heard some people say "this is a hate crime and Ravi hated homosexuals" which I think is bullshit. If Ravi honestly hated gays, he would have applied for a transfer of residence the second he found out that his roommate is gay, and THEN publicly embarrass Tyler. Nowhere in that article did I see that Ravi wanted a room transfer if he had found out 9 days before Tyler's suicide that Tyler batted for the other team, if I've read it properly.
What it was meant to be was a prank. Did it work out that way? No. Does he deserve to be punished? Yes. But 5 years? Manslaughter up here in Canada doesn't even carry a minimum "jail" sentence if it's something like "pushing someone down a flight of steps" (meaning that you can serve your punishment as being under house arrest). And this case is an even looser definition of manslaughter.
As UncleSam said earlier, being a dick doesn't make you evil, it makes you human.
I really dislike this obsession with 'hate' crimes. Surely any violent crime is a hate crime. If a man kills another man because that man had had sex with his wife surely he (the murderer) did that out of hatred for the man whom his wife had an affair with. By singling out certain crimes as 'hate' crimes because they were done to someone of a different colour/creed/sexuality to the person who did it, just encourages separation and does not promote acceptance.
Basically if your going to commit a crime in America, make sure the person who you are doing it to is the same colour/creed/sexuality to you.
(to all the people who are going to point out that I got this from a tv show, that is not the point. The argument is valid.)
Basically if your going to commit a crime in America, make sure the person who you are doing it to is the same colour/creed/sexuality to you.
(to all the people who are going to point out that I got this from a tv show, that is not the point. The argument is valid.)
Japan is away from a lot of ways when it comes to tolerance. But yeah, America certainly isn't in the minority or even among the worst cultures when it comes to the environment of homosexuals. We're not the Middle East or say China (I'm not too sure what their attitudes on homosexuality is, but I'd imagine it can't be too great given their attitude to sexuality in the first place) and let's not start into some African nations.
Lol thank you for supporting us, but making us seem like aliens was a bit funny to me. Live peacefully among us made me giggle.
The Democratic Party? Since when did political parties care about anything besides votes? I admit I vote Democrat like 99% of the time, but to say they actually care about homosexuals or most anything else they preach about (to also get the minority vote on top of the gay vote) is probably not true.
I agree with this. Although Ravi has to have some hatred or insecurity of homosexuals. Would anyone think that if his straight roommate was in there fucking some chick he would have even cared or bothered to record it? Probably not.
If she was particularly ugly, yes, they would.
There's not actually that much embarrassment, socially, from being revealed banging some chick. In fact, it's probably something to brag about in most social circles. There's no prank about it.
On the other hand, homosexual encounters, given the social stigma attaching to homosexuality, are embarassing, much more so for someone who's closeted. Ergo, the prank has a basis.
That's not to say Ravi isn't homophobic; only that the conclusion doesn't follow necessarily from the prank. It's more about social attitudes.
Does this change the point that America and Americans care about Gay rights way way way more than Japan (and a whole slew of other countries/cultures who don't give a rat's ass about Gays or tolerance in general)?