Russia attacks Georgia, Georgia invades South Ossetia

[DM]

And DM, there are innocents involved. It is any person's moral duty to help innocents survive. Russia and Georgia are fighting a political war and they are taking the lives of people who have done nothing wrong, who want nothing but peace, nothing but a roof over their heads, nothing but to be fed and clothed. I've heard stories of people who fled Chechnya. It is horrible, horrible, horrible to see innocents suffer in war. That alone is reason to intervene.

I don't disagree, but aside from what akuchi mentioned, the USA has an obligation to protect their OWN people first. Considering the rising unemployment rate, the tumbling housing market/economy, the ludicrous national debt and a host of other problems we face in this country (that are being exacerbated by the federal government), the LAST thing we need to be doing is tromping around the globe playing World Police.

 

[Deck Knight]

Yeah, because it's not like the US [and no doubt, UK], armies' track record for rape isn't absolutely disgraceful - and I won't even go into the atrocities perpetrated by some of the companies contracted to work for the US government.

Independent contracters =/= standing military officials. There's a difference between Haliburton (OHNOEZ!) and the Blue Helmets. The contractors are there to perform specific nonmilitary jobs, they aren't there to represent order or keep the peace. Supposed US military atrocities are now couched in terms of collateral damage, even our critics and enemies aren't stupid enough to accuse us of raping and pillaging their neighborhoods.

Abu Ghraib? What happened to that lot of soldiers? When US Soldiers act outside the USCMJ (US Code of Military Justice), they get court marshalled.

Maybe it happened in WWI/WWII/'Nam when they just drafted every able bodied man off the street, but the US military doesn't do that crap anymore and punishes heavily for any occurence.

Nevermind the Commie armies. Slaughtering their own left and right was standard operating procedure. If you want to learn how to slaughter and pillage right, watch a Marxist (Now in Lenin, Trotsky, Stalin, and Mao flavors!). At least the UN pretends they have a moral backbone.

Oh, and Georgia can't invade South Ossetia, it's Georgian territory. The Russians will, of course, dispute that, but that is the politburo's job. I'm pretty sure the Balkans and every other former Soviet satelite is on the politburo's list of Russian territory.

Unfortunately, America is the de facto World Police. I absolutely hate that America has to be World Police. I wish Europe would grow a pair and actually defend themselves instead of indebting themselves with massive socialist programs, knowing they can rely on us to save their ass if anything remotely threatening comes along.

Worse still, they are a bunch of jealous little whiners who care more about our politics than we do. All that punishing success and wealth redistribution emblematic of their socialist systems has made them want to bring us down to their lowly, sub-reproduction rate, double-digit unemployment way of life.

I miss the arrogant, snobby British guys. When Britain was self-sufficient, I could at least respect them. Now they've lost their British identity and have morphed into just another bunch of European sad sacks. "Europe" as a continent has done nothing but war with itself since the beginning of civilization. Britain had the world's largest empire and was a dominant force for a decent portion of human history. I'd love for Britain to become a superpower again and take some of the work off our hands. I wouldn't even mind Germany as long as it wasn't run by a fascist lemming this time around. Hell, bring back Napoleon for all I care, just so long as Europe isn't a net leech on global stability.

Look, the first dirty little secret of modern geopolitics is that the United States could easily wipe out and control every nation on earth if it were to do so one nation at a time. The second dirty little secret is that since America is a civilized, truly republican superpower, that is never, ever going to happen. Erego, whenever there's a fight, you want the American dog in your corner, and God help you if you don't.

Russia and China on the other hand, are malevolent powers more than willing to suck up your life and territory to advance their causes. They are Republics in name only and still have a ruling class bent on conquest. You're not going to find American gulags or re-education camps here (Spare me Gitmo comparisons. Nobody got their teeth knocked outlike McCain did in the Hanoi Hilton, nor has anyone there died or been abused in any way, although 3 inmates attempted suicide IIRC.)

So this is a bit tl;dr at this point. I'll just encapsulate it as follows:

The United States is the only global power around that isn't interested in expanding its territory at the cost of blood and treasure. We're also the only neutral or benevolent power than can project enough of our power outward to maintain global stability. Erego, like it or not, America is World Police until another Republican power steps up to the challenge. It is an ugly and unfortunate truth, because the only alternative to a Republican power rising up is a totalitarian one, and right now (at least) two totalitarian powers are trying to reduce global stability to enrich themselves.

 

[Vineon]

It certainly is retaliation to Kosovo and who exactly didn't see it come? Russia brought up many examples in their ex soviet states of regions also seeking independance when the Kosovo were pursuing their own from Serbia.

If the United States and the international community were quick to accept Kosovo's independance, they need to recognize the same to South Ossetia and later Abkhazia.

Georgia continually plays with fire and they just burned themselves bad. Russia was clear in the past any aggression directed towards "russian citizens" from South Ossetia would be seen as an aggression towards Russia.

Also, little chance of a "NATO response" as nearly all of Europe is dependant on Russian oil.

 

[Misty]

If I had to place blame for this, I would say...

- The West, for failing to engage Russia constructively.

- The West again, for recognizing Kosovo while ignoring Abkhazia and South Ossetia.

- Russia, for refusing to leave the 19th century.

- Georgia, for aggravating Russia and giving it an excuse for wanton imperialism.


Fact is, everyone is going to get their just desserts for this, but this could have been avoided in so many ways that it's not funny.

 

[Sand Man]

At the very least there'll be something good out of this once Saakashvili's out of power, it's hard to imagine we'd have gotten Georgia playing the aggressor and shelling civilian targets if he wasn't such a moronic US puppet as to expect foreign aid afterwards.

The thing to really be grateful for though is that the west isn't getting deeply involved and won't affect things at all because holy shit the media coverage is the most irresponsible since Iraq, I mean Britain's isn't so bad apparently but the rest of the western media is do you want to laugh or cry material. "Georgia? The aggressors? Committing atrocities? Oh no, no, plucky little democratic Georgia was minding its own business when Russia-"

check CNN's early stories if you want to make your blood boil


edit: Deck Knight stop talking about politics you jingoistic chickenhawk, even the Russiophiles crawling out of the woodwork over this write more scintillating nationalist diatribes than you do

 

[Altmer]

I don't disagree, but aside from what akuchi mentioned, the USA has an obligation to protect their OWN people first. Considering the rising unemployment rate, the tumbling housing market/economy, the ludicrous national debt and a host of other problems we face in this country (that are being exacerbated by the federal government), the LAST thing we need to be doing is tromping around the globe playing World Police.

I agree that the US has struggles of its own, but it's still sitting on the sidelines watching while innocents die. I understand that innocents die also in the US, but wars can always be prevented; it is the US, the EU, no the collective global community's duty to prevent tragedies like these from occurring and to solve them as quickly as possible.

 

[akuchi]

Independent contractors that your government should do something about - but doesn't, rather choosing to ignore the woman who was gang-raped and then locked in a storage container for three days so she couldn't tell anyone.

Oh, and the US Army soldier who's death was written off as suicide -

'Her body was found in a tent belonging to the private military contractor KBR. She had abrasions all over her body, a broken nose, a black eye, burned hands, loose teeth, acid burns on her genitals, and a bullet hole in her head.'

Mmm. Because the US Army is so fucking good to women.

 

[User 12783]

rofl xD

 

[Caelum]

xD

I knew the Russians would strike one day! They told us the Cold War was over, lies all lies.

 

[Misty]

haha i wondered if that was going to happen

 

[T_T]

meh.. Russia again o_O

I hope Turkey wont be involved furthermore in this.

 

[Kietharr]

Am I the only one laughing at the US government deriding Russia for invading a sovereign nation? Seriously, Georgia attacked the Ossentians first, the Georgian government dug its own hole and now the only major city still under their control is Tbilisi itself. If Mexico attacked our peacekeepers you can bet that we'd be rolling towards Mexico D.F.

The US government has no moral high ground when it comes to this sort of thing, they act as if they're the untouchable golden boys and that when they invade countries for their own benefit that it is combating evil dictators, but when the Russians suddenly invade a democracy that is killing its own civilians it's bullying.

 

[Tangerine]

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,24193291-401,00.html

Uh oh

 

[Deck Knight]

Am I the only one laughing at the US government deriding Russia for invading a sovereign nation? Seriously, Georgia attacked the Ossentians first, the Georgian government dug its own hole and now the only major city still under their control is Tbilisi itself. If Mexico attacked our peacekeepers you can bet that we'd be rolling towards Mexico D.F.

The US government has no moral high ground when it comes to this sort of thing, they act as if they're the untouchable golden boys and that when they invade countries for their own benefit that it is combating evil dictators, but when the Russians suddenly invade a democracy that is killing its own civilians it's bullying.

You are a good communist Kietharr. You accept the politburos explanation blindly and without critical thinking. You equivocate anything because when it comes down to it, facts don't matter so much as pretending the US is just as bad as every other power in the world, despite obvious evidence to the contrary.

There is no such thing as an Ossentian. South Ossetia is like saying South Dakota or The American Southwest. It's a named region of another country. That country happens to be Georgia, which good 'ol Putin flooded with Russian passports a few years back in order to even make the argument he is simply freeing native Russians. He's now trying to do the same thing in Ukraine, which is why all of the former Soviet Bloc countries got behind the Georgian President to stand up to Russia.

Tell me, why are Putin's tanks stalking outside Tblisi despite signing a cease-fire? If Georgia is such an evil aggressor, why are there no Georgian tanks blowing up Georgian cities?

Any comparisons between this and Iraq are idiotic on their face. Saddam was a danger to every country surrounding him and had been to known to finance terrorist activity. He was a troublemaker in his own region (and, btw. murdered his own citizens. That seems to be a problem for you, so I thought I'd mention it.) with global ambitions, and had essentially bought off France and Germany with his Oil for Food scheme. Saddam was not some poor innocent who one day was attacked by evil Emperor George W. Bush for no reason.

If you want to see real imperialism, look at Putin, not Bush. Do you think Putin simply wants to leave Georgia, a Democratic nation, in peace, or absorb it into Russia? Putin doesn't give one iota of care for the Georgians. He sees their big seaport and what it could do for his power regionally, and he's willing to ignore the impotent UN and a US beseiged by equivocators like yourself in order to get his opening. In fact, there's a term that communists, fascists, and megalomaniacs alike use for equivocators like you: useful idiots.

If you don't see the difference between Putin's megalomaniacal ambitions and Bush's ousting of a cruel dictator and state sponsor of terror, no argument in the world can convince you otherwise because you have proven yourself impervious to reason.

This isn't a time to get potshots at Bush. Putin wants to recreate the USSR in his image, and if you think he doesn't you haven't been paying attention.

 

[Sand Man]

do you actually know anything at all about that region or its history?
like, for example, how Georgia tried to ethnically cleanse S. Ossetia in the 90's and drove over half the population away

 

[Kietharr]

Sand man, you surely know that your so called 'history' does not apply nowadays, as the world is a different place and the Russians are pure baby raping evil while America is a nation of white knights that can do no wrong, on an eternal crusade against the evildoers of the world, who hate us simply because we are free and they are not.

Seriously though Deck Knight, just because the Ossetians live in Georgia does NOT mean they are Georgian. It's like saying that Aboriginals are identical to British Australians, or that Native Americans are identical to European immigrants. The population identifies more strongly with Russia and has for a LONG time. It has only really been a territory of Georgia since the collapse of the Soviet Union, hence the attempted ethnic cleansing so they could manage it more easily.

Let's also not forget this fox news report
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFcaNM2J3VE

Notice how the Ossetians blame the president of Georgia for the aggression. These are people who have lots of family there. They thank the Russian troops for saving them from the Georgians, of course this is all Russian propaganda meant to turn us all into COMMUNISTS.

Do I think Vladimir Putin really gives two shits about Georgia? No, but they got themselves into this, I'd be all for Putin changing their regime by force, it's not like America has not done this all over the world dozens of times. We should have done it in Iraq in 1991 but didn't have the balls to carry through with it.