Russia attacks Georgia, Georgia invades South Ossetia

[evan]

http://en.rian.ru/world/20080808/115892849.html
http://debka.com/article.php?aid=1358
http://en.rian.ru/russia/20080808/115896027.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7548715.stm
http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSL768040420080808
http://www.reuters.com/article/GCA-Russia/idUSL859348920080808
http://www.agi.it/world/news/200808081050-pol-ren0015-art.html
http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/08/08/georgia.ossetia/index.html
http://www.boston.com/news/world/europe/articles/2008/08/08/russian_troops_enter_georgia/

This is a big story. Briefly, since there is a lot to wade through, the province of S. Osettia has broken off from Georgia and was under a brief ceasefire between 'rebel' groups and Georgian military until being broken earlier in the day. Russia claims that ten of their peacekeepers were killed and have gone in, Putin has been quoted as saying "the war has started."

The biggest issue, of course, is Georgia's NATO status. While not full members of the alliance, Georgia was well on its way to full member status with a Membership Action Plan expected in December of this year. Of course, if NATO responds this leads us into even trickier action since it will now give credence to Putin's fears that NATO is an anti-Russian alliance which could, inevitably, blow up in the world's face.

Smogon! Your thoughts?

 

[Misty]

Georgia's NATO chances are sunk for the near future.

I'm more concerned about the war itself.

 

[akuchi]

My thoughts; sometimes I feel like completely trashing the idea of a marxist/anarchist community based purely on how completely shit people are to each other. It's horrible. People never, ever, ever learn.

 

[Misty]

it's all nationalism anyway, according to marx that kind of thing breaks down with capitalism

 

[akuchi]

Capitalism or no there's absolutely no need for it. It's stupid.
It's all just senseless.

 

[DM]

That whole region has been a pot close to boiling for a long time. I think it has just hit critical point.

Any way I look at the situation, I don't see a good outcome. Putin will be damned if he's going to back down. I can only begin to imagine what effect this will have on the Olympics.

 

[evan]

I've been doing some reading around to get more background information on this conflict and stumbled upon this really compelling piece from the Asia Times.

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Central_Asia/HJ25Ag01.html

It's long so most probably won't want to take the time to check it out but if you do I'd like to hear your reactions. If you agree with the author of that it seems like the Bush-Cheney presidency is likely to support Georgia in their actions which could embroil us in something our military cannot handle thanks to Iraq and Afghanistan.

 

[Ancien Régime]

That whole region is always close to boiling lol; "hi we basically started two world wars lolol". Powderkeg of Europe, now and forever.

My general feelings on stuff like this is that if people want to secede, let them secede. Seriously, it's all nationalistic circle-jerk to force people to be part of your state, at least when most people in a region don't want to be.

 

[Invective]

it was bound to happen sooner or later.
the platform taken by Mikhail Saakashvili was one in which he stated he was going to take back south ossetia, so now hes just keeping that promise.

 

[DM]

In the end, I wish the US would just let the UN wank off about it all they want and just take a backseat in the proceedings. I'm a staunch isolationist, so any overt involvement in this debacle on our part strikes me as unnecessary.

 

[Misty]

That whole region is always close to boiling lol; "hi we basically started two world wars lolol". Powderkeg of Europe, now and forever.

I think you're confusing the Caucasus with the Balkans.

 

[unceunce]

Awh, don't say the Balkans started the world wars. The event that helped spark one of them happened there, but the spark was going to come anyway, sooner or later.

This sort of reminds me of the whole Kosovo incident that is going on.

 

[Protoman]

I've been doing some reading around to get more background information on this conflict and stumbled upon this really compelling piece from the Asia Times.

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Central_Asia/HJ25Ag01.html

It's long so most probably won't want to take the time to check it out but if you do I'd like to hear your reactions. If you agree with the author of that it seems like the Bush-Cheney presidency is likely to support Georgia in their actions which could embroil us in something our military cannot handle thanks to Iraq and Afghanistan.

Three wars at the same time GO!!!

I really hope the US doesn't get deeply involved in this mess.

 

[Morm]

Reunite the soviet union! it makes sense.

Georgia is so damn small. To have a place called SOUTH Ossetia, not even regular Ossetia, rebel from a country that is so small most people don't know/care it exists? Russia is wise to move when they did.

 

[Feres]

The funny thing about this is seeing Vladimir Putim in the openning of the olympics while his country is on war.

 

[Surgo]

I don't think this WORLD WAR III OMG yet but, uh, it's worrying regardless. And a situation like this is going to be what causes it eventually.

 

[Morm]

Apparently it's spilling over into a neighbouring province. Why is it that countries can be constantly at war with each other all over the world but as soon as a first world nation enters a fray it's earth shattering? I mean other than the obvious alliances, UN and technological fallouts/advantages.

 

[Surgo]

It's the alliances, mostly.

 

[Misty]

Russia is getting "revenge" for Kosovo, although one could also say that it's an opportunity for Russia to show some military muscle. Of course, destroying a country a hundredth your size and a tenth your population doesn't say much about you, but Russia isn't really governed by logic.

 

[Hipmonlee]

What country is?

Have a nice day.

 

[Morm]

Misty larger countries love doing that kind of thing. It's called a land grab. Not to mention war helps economies- Russia needs all the help it can get in that department since it's never understood how money works.

 

[Deck Knight]

In the end, I wish the US would just let the UN wank off about it all they want and just take a backseat in the proceedings. I'm a staunch isolationist, so any overt involvement in this debacle on our part strikes me as unnecessary.

Problem is whenever the US wanks off and lets the UN do its own thing, tinpot dictators like Saddam and Mugabe buy their way to favor through bribes while China and the Putin's USSR, err, Russia block any efforts on the security council. Nevermind the blue helmets' propensity for raping the local populace.

Unfortunately, one of two things happens when shit hits the fan in global affairs:

1. The US steps in and fixes/greatly reduces the problem (See: Germany, South Korea, Operation Iraqi Freedom)

2. The UN sits on its ass enabling the aggressor since they're a bought bunch of cowards and reprobates. (See: Oil for Food, The Kongo, Zimbabwe)

There may be exceptions to Scenario 1, but Scenario 2 is par for the course. I'd prefer not to deal with anything in Europe's neck of the woods either, but they're such a bunch of helpless rubes that eventually it comes back to bite us in the ass. Europe is always there when they need us.

For those of you hoping for another rousing round of global bloodshed in the name of a communist utopia, you may get your wish. Although to be honest, Putin always struck me as a generic autocrat in the mold of Saddam Hussein, not specifically a communist. I doubt he'll pull out a bunch of "workers of the world unite" bullshit. Putin is a scary guy and he's sitting on top of a bunch of poor, angry Russians and a boatload of oil. He's been developing his military capabilities, and while he's still a second rate global power, he can wipe out his smaller neighbors with little effort.

Honestly the Cold War never ended, we just got the Berlin Wall torn down and called it a day, at least on a macro level. Fact is, the "Ex"-KGB guys stil run Russia (see: Putin) and they rather liked being a superpower. The ball is really in Putin's hands at this point. One of my Political Science professors made the quip that "Russians don't take a crap without a plan."

Russian leaders may be powermad megalogmaniacs, but they're at least rational and fear death, in contrast to islamist thugs like Armageddonjad who associate dying while killing your enemies (actual or percieved) with martyrdom.

 

[DM]

Problem is whenever the US wanks off and lets the UN do its own thing, tinpot dictators like Saddam and Mugabe buy their way to favor through bribes while China and the Putin's USSR, err, Russia block any efforts on the security council. Nevermind the blue helmets' propensity for raping the local populace.

Okay, so... why should that be our problem? We aren't obligated to fix everything.

 

[Altmer]

It's always been a boiling pot. Anyone remember Beslan? Chechnya? Russia is and will always be a nation run by bastards. Sucks to be Russian.

And DM, there are innocents involved. It is any person's moral duty to help innocents survive. Russia and Georgia are fighting a political war and they are taking the lives of people who have done nothing wrong, who want nothing but peace, nothing but a roof over their heads, nothing but to be fed and clothed. I've heard stories of people who fled Chechnya. It is horrible, horrible, horrible to see innocents suffer in war. That alone is reason to intervene.

 

[akuchi]

Yeah, because it's not like the US [and no doubt, UK], armies' track record for rape isn't absolutely disgraceful - and I won't even go into the atrocities perpetrated by some of the companies contracted to work for the US government.