Rowlet, Dartrix, Decidueye Discussion

[Redvader8]

Im just curious how shackles work. Does it keep the "trapped" mon in until decidueye faints or leaves? Or does it stay on if decidueye switches out. My gut says the former but the latter would be insanely broken.

 

[Blerght]

Well, i just found out belly drum and curse (for ghosts) based z-moves recover full hp before cutting it in half so maybe for singles and vgc (with the right team) he could go:

defensive EVs and nature based on the team needs
Ghost Z-stone
Spirit Shackle
Curse
Roost
Low Sweep

Turn 1 Spirit shackle to keep your target stuck (doesn't really matter who, as long as its not immune). You will possibly get hit and should tank with more than 50% (if in doubles, your partner will probably have some way of mitigating damage or redirecting to him), or even better, you force a switch and get a free trap. Another option is to use someone with feint, just in case you predict a protect so you will garantee spirit shackle will hit.

Turn 2 you should be able to tank another hit and use your Z-Curse to get all your hp back and cut it in half again.

Turn 3 roost your life away if the oposing team is really giving you a hard time or switch (you'll still get 50% of the cursed mon life off anyway)

Low sweep is to lower other mons speed if needed or to get an ice/dark/normal switch in predicted.

This should work for you to kill at least one threat on the opposite team and if played right and you get to kill the heavy hitter, you can probably pull it off later without the Z-boost to curse.

But this can maybe work with sitrus berry also, but would need to test it when we get the chance.

 

[Redvader8]

Well, i just found out belly drum and curse (for ghosts) based z-moves recover full hp before cutting it in half so maybe for singles and vgc (with the right team) he could go:

defensive EVs and nature based on the team needs
Ghost Z-stone
Spirit Shackle
Curse
Roost
Low Sweep

Turn 1 Spirit shackle to keep your target stuck (doesn't really matter who, as long as its not immune). You will possibly get hit and should tank with more than 50% (if in doubles, your partner will probably have some way of mitigating damage or redirecting to him), or even better, you force a switch and get a free trap.

Turn 2 you should be able to tank another hit and use your Z-Curse to get all your hp back and cut it in half again.

Turn 3 roost your life away if the oposing team is really giving you a hard time or switch (you'll still get 50% of the cursed mon life off anyway)

Low sweep is to lower other mons speed if needed or to get an ice/dark/normal switch in predicted.

This should work for you to kill at least one threat on the opposite team and if played right and you get to kill the heavy hitter, you can probably pull it off later without the Z-boost to curse.

But this can maybe work with sitrus berry also, but would need to test it when we get the chance.

I like the idea, dont get me wrong with my next statement: it really depends on decidueye being capable of taking more than a 2HKO for it to work out. If it does, the shenanigans sounds awesome

 

[Karxrida]

People are seriously overselling Spirit Shackle.

Your opponent can still switch out before getting hit by it. There's nothing stopping them from sending out a counter (Scizor in particular is a nuisance that can U-turn out) the turn you use it and cause you to trap that instead of what you wanted. It's cool for preventing double switches but that's all it's consistently good for.

Also you haven't been able to BP trapping effects since Gen V unless they changed that.

 

[DreamPrince]

Glad to have been a Popplio supporter since the beginning. It payed off! Personally, it's the best out of the three both design-wise, stat-wise, and movepool-wise. Hyped as hell to use it.

Same Here.

 

[Redvader8]

People are seriously overselling Spirit Shackle.

Your opponent can still switch out before getting hit by it. There's nothing stopping them from sending out a counter (Scizor in particular is a nuisance that can U-turn out) the turn you use it and cause you to trap that instead of what you wanted. It's cool for preventing double switches but that's all it's consistently good for.

Also you haven't been able to BP trapping effects since Gen V unless they changed that.

Yeah, Shackles is fantastic when it works, we have to think more about the average useage of it. Thats why I am mainly focusing him as a defensive mon, because the shackles still prevents opponents from doubling out which is nice because it narrows down their options.

 

[Blerght]

I like the idea, dont get me wrong with my next statement: it really depends on decidueye being capable of taking more than a 2HKO for it to work out. If it does, the shenanigans sounds awesome

Of course, we can't assume this will be the opening move for every vgc battle or with any mon. But Not that many threats get volturn and in vgc i haven't encountered that many volturn.
Again, one pokemon alone (specially a starter) wont have a bulletproof strategy. We are just theorizing about what it can and cannot be usefull for =P

 

[blasphemy1]

People are seriously overselling Spirit Shackle.

Your opponent can still switch out before getting hit by it. There's nothing stopping them from sending out a counter (Scizor in particular is a nuisance that can U-turn out) the turn you use it and cause you to trap that instead of what you wanted. It's cool for preventing double switches but that's all it's consistently good for.

Also you haven't been able to BP trapping effects since Gen V unless they changed that.

No, your point is actually what makes it a great move. You get a free hit on something while being able to dictate momentum in the match by U-turning or switching. They are stuck that turn while you switch out and put the pressure on them to keep up. It's like the opposite of U-turn: Instead of doing damage while you switch, you do it before you switch. Yes, you're vulnerable to Pursuit and whatnot, but U-turn helps alleviate this to some degree if you're slower.

 

[Blerght]

No, your point is actually what makes it a great move. You get a free hit on something while being able to dictate momentum in the match by U-turning or switching. They are stuck that turn while you switch out and put the pressure on them to keep up. It's like the opposite of U-turn: Instead of doing damage while you switch, you do it before you switch. Yes, you're vulnerable to Pursuit and whatnot, but U-turn helps alleviate this to some degree if you're slower.

And lets be honest, how many people use pursuit over other moves these days?
I believe this is bound to change if Dedicueye and the Anchor get some usage, but still.

 

[Melons-N-Soda]

Not the powerhouse people wanted, but its a decent pivot. Could see use in that case, though defensively its a bit mixed. But hey, it gets Roost :).

 

[jackgraves]

There is still a problem in that it can choose which Pokemon it will Baton Pass in front of.

It's not Baton Passing a Perish Trap like long ago, but it can give a +6 boost to Attack or Special Attack without even trying. And if you wish, you can add Feather Dance to ensure the opponent cannot even hit your receiver hard.

(How many Pokemon can learn a +2 offensive boosting move, a trapping move and Baton Pass, by the way?)

Very few. There's Watchog, and now Ariados. Also Gliscor, but that means using Sand Tomb to trap...

 

[Bombkirby]

Don't forget that shackles does a lot of damage. It's not just mean look where you waste a turn to trap the switch in. Eventually you'll trap something good just by chance while dealing damage

 

[Blerght]

So, I've been running some calcs for lvl 50 battles (battlespot / vgc), assuming tapu bulu has taken a walk through the field and thats what i came up with:

Carefull nature - 150 hp, 120 def, 252 sp def - Item: Grassy seed (boosts defense by 1 once on grassy terrain):

Both: 252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 150 HP / 240+ SpD Decidueye: 107-126 (62.2 - 73.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery

Both: 252 SpA Life Orb Latios Ice Beam vs. 150 HP / 240+ SpD Decidueye: 99-117 (57.5 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery

Both: 252 SpA Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 150 HP / 240+ SpD Decidueye: 102-120 (59.3 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery

Singles : 252 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 150 HP / 240+ SpD Decidueye: 87-103 (50.5 - 59.8%) -- 86.7% chance to 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery

Both: 252+ SpA Choice Specs Gardevoir Shadow Ball vs. 150 HP / 240+ SpD Decidueye: 108-128 (62.7 - 74.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery

Vgc: 252+ SpA Choice Specs Gardevoir Dazzling Gleam vs. 150 HP / 240+ SpD Decidueye: 60-72 (34.8 - 41.8%) -- 81.3% chance to 3HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery

Vgc: 252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Dragon Claw vs. +1 150 HP / 120 Def Decidueye: 66-78 (38.3 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery

Both: 252 Atk Life Orb Incineroar Darkest Lariat vs. +1 150 HP / 120 Def Decidueye: 127-151 (73.8 - 87.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery

Now on the offensive side:

0 Atk Decidueye Low Sweep vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Incineroar: 56-68 (32.9 - 40%) -- 26.1% chance to 3HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery

0 Atk Decidueye U-turn vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Incineroar: 31-37 (18.2 - 21.7%) -- possible 6HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery

The other guy on page 2 already had some damage calcs that would pretty much say the same for the spread im testins so recalcing them would be redundant, but if you run a defensive spread like this you can actually live a SE STAB 85 power move coming off of a 115 base attack neutral nature incineroar, taking 87.7% damage tops (no crit) and dish out one low sweep, decreasins its speed to a level where you can u-turn safelly (assuming no pursuit) on the second turn and get a damage total of roughly 51% min and 61.7% max, sending in a mon that possibly resists the next move (and does not have to be a powerhouse to finish the job ) to face a slowed halp Hp'ed Incineroar.

So, what i get from this is: its no godly tank, but it can take hits and hit back, has a reliable recovery in roost, has plenty of tools to assist its stats, like grassy terrain and the new item that boosts def on terrains.

If you play it in vgc, it can live hits as long as it's not focused and with it not being an immediate threat I don't think it will. Most probably the enemy will try to wear it down with spread moves. Vgc is all about sinergy so he won't need to handle that focus menace alone, as he can have partners with redirecting moves or dual screen , fake out, wide guard and all that neat support stuff that we get to use.

I can see it working as a trapper and pivot. And the fact that nobody gives it any credit and prefers the anchor can actually work on its favor.

 

[freekhoorn]

Lets not forget that not only is it a Spinblocker, its a spinblocker that has hazard removal. And with a Z move thats the strongest Ghost attack discovered thus far, SOMEONE is going to die.

Sorry but what is the good thing of being a spinblocker and getting defog? If you switch in on a rapid spin, there must be hazards on the opponents side of field, if you then defog, those hazards go away. The combi is never good to use because the whole point of being a spinblocker is that the hazards stay at the opponents field xd

 

[Deaga]

It's the ultimate friendly strategy, man.
"Oh I'm so sorry I blocked your spin, let me fix that for you. Hope you can forgive this."

 

[Colonial]

Sorry but what is the good thing of being a spinblocker and getting defog? If you switch in on a rapid spin, there must be hazards on the opponents side of field, if you then defog, those hazards go away. The combi is never good to use because the whole point of being a spinblocker is that the hazards stay at the opponents field xd

While this is true, the spinblocking still allows you to remove hazards on your terms instead of your enemy's. You don't need to defog right away.

 

[Durengardnit]

Sorry but what is the good thing of being a spinblocker and getting defog? If you switch in on a rapid spin, there must be hazards on the opponents side of field, if you then defog, those hazards go away. The combi is never good to use because the whole point of being a spinblocker is that the hazards stay at the opponents field xd

If you want a Grass/Ghost spinblocker that removes entry hazards with Rapid Spin instead of Defog, Dhelmise got you covered. The only disadvantage is Dhelmise has no recovery move.

 

[Bombkirby]

Sorry but what is the good thing of being a spinblocker and getting defog? If you switch in on a rapid spin, there must be hazards on the opponents side of field, if you then defog, those hazards go away. The combi is never good to use because the whole point of being a spinblocker is that the hazards stay at the opponents field xd

Things like Forretress can put hazards down and spin. He counters that easily. Also counters that mareanie evo. Cleans up spikes/blocks its normal moves like fake out and doesn't make contact with it to be poisoned when it protects

 

[Bundy300]

Decidueye is an interesting mon, has some cool options but people don't want to see that because it's base stats aren't broken.

This thing has potential, I thought of how it would fit in ORAS OU and these sets came out. Ofcourse nobody knows how S/M OU will be but I don't think these mons I checked on will fall.

Decidueye @ Life orb
Ability: Long Reach
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Leaf Blade
- Spirit shackle
- Brave Bird
- U-turn/Sucker Punch

Not gonna lie, the moment I saw brave bird I was triggered so I had to find a way to abuse it...
And that way is killing bulky grass mons for the team. If an opponent thinks his venusaur/tangrowth/amoonguss was going to wall you he was mistaken.

First victim, Mega Venusaur. I was suprised that he could take him reliably.

252+ Atk Life Orb Decidueye Spirit Shackle vs. 248 HP / 96+ Def Mega Venusaur: 114-136 (31.4 - 37.4%) -- 85.8% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Decidueye Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 96+ Def Mega Venusaur: 231-273 (63.6 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 SpA Mega Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Trevenant: 115-136 (38.7 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Amoonguss. This mon just gets destroyed.

252+ Atk Life Orb Decidueye Spirit Shackle vs. 248 HP / 168+ Def Amoonguss: 161-191 (37.3 - 44.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Decidueye Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 168+ Def Amoonguss: 322-382 (74.7 - 88.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

0 SpA Amoonguss Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Decidueye: 76-90 (25.5 - 30.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

Tangrowth. Now this one is a bit tougher, SR will be needed to help Decidueye get the job done and even then it's not 100%... What makes up for this though is that you can always U-Turn out if you don't want to risk it.

252+ Atk Life Orb Decidueye Spirit Shackle vs. 244 HP / 216+ Def Tangrowth: 103-122 (25.6 - 30.3%) -- 0.6% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Decidueye Brave Bird vs. 244 HP / 216+ Def Tangrowth: 205-244 (50.9 - 60.6%) -- 89.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 Atk Tangrowth Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Decidueye: 178-210 (59.9 - 70.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Now to the other set I thought of... Well the idea was to trap with Spirit Shackle and then suprise with a special atk move but this mon his special movepool is totall ass and it's not strong enough so scratch that lol.

 

[Durengardnit]

Decidueye @ Life orb
Ability: Long Reach
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Leaf Blade
- Spirit shackle
- Brave Bird
- U-turn/Sucker Punch

I really like this idea. Scare a Water or Ground type away with Decidueye and if they switch in a defensive Grass type, trap it with Spirit Shackle and destroy it with Brave Bird.

 

[Blerght]

Decidueye is an interesting mon, has some cool options but people don't want to see that because it's base stats aren't broken.

This thing has potential, I thought of how it would fit in ORAS OU and these sets came out. Ofcourse nobody knows how S/M OU will be but I don't think these mons I checked on will fall.

Decidueye @ Life orb
Ability: Long Reach
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Leaf Blade
- Spirit shackle
- Brave Bird
- U-turn/Sucker Punch

Not gonna lie, the moment I saw brave bird I was triggered so I had to find a way to abuse it...
And that way is killing bulky grass mons for the team. If an opponent thinks his venusaur/tangrowth/amoonguss was going to wall you he was mistaken.

First victim, Mega Venusaur. I was suprised that he could take him reliably.

252+ Atk Life Orb Decidueye Spirit Shackle vs. 248 HP / 96+ Def Mega Venusaur: 114-136 (31.4 - 37.4%) -- 85.8% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Decidueye Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 96+ Def Mega Venusaur: 231-273 (63.6 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 SpA Mega Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Trevenant: 115-136 (38.7 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Amoonguss. This mon just gets destroyed.

252+ Atk Life Orb Decidueye Spirit Shackle vs. 248 HP / 168+ Def Amoonguss: 161-191 (37.3 - 44.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Decidueye Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 168+ Def Amoonguss: 322-382 (74.7 - 88.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

0 SpA Amoonguss Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Decidueye: 76-90 (25.5 - 30.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

Tangrowth. Now this one is a bit tougher, SR will be needed to help Decidueye get the job done and even then it's not 100%... What makes up for this though is that you can always U-Turn out if you don't want to risk it.

252+ Atk Life Orb Decidueye Spirit Shackle vs. 244 HP / 216+ Def Tangrowth: 103-122 (25.6 - 30.3%) -- 0.6% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Decidueye Brave Bird vs. 244 HP / 216+ Def Tangrowth: 205-244 (50.9 - 60.6%) -- 89.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 Atk Tangrowth Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Decidueye: 178-210 (59.9 - 70.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Now to the other set I thought of... Well the idea was to trap with Spirit Shackle and then suprise with a special atk move but this mon his special movepool is totall ass and it's not strong enough so scratch that lol.

I don't know about investing on his speed thou. I can see this set working for the purpose you gave it with a few changes like:

1 - investing only enough speed to outspeed the mons you aim to kill that would have no investment on speed themselves
2 - giving the rest of this to HP to cover damage from both special and physical areas
3 - Sucker Punch is not that important if you are meaning to outspeed these mons you mentioned, so i would substitute it for roost to mitigate the recoil of Bbird
4 - maybe you can instead of life orb give him a sitrus berry, change Bbird for acrobatics and sucker punch or leaf blade for Swords Dance (depending on if you want to kill faster ghosts also)

or
all of the above but with your original investment on speed and a salac berry

That would garantee you don't lose so much life for life orb AND Bbird, take less damage from the oponent and ohko all your mentioned enemies after SDing and eating berry.

 

[Lost Thoughts]

+

/

People are seriously overselling Spirit Shackle.

Your opponent can still switch out before getting hit by it. There's nothing stopping them from sending out a counter (Scizor in particular is a nuisance that can U-turn out) the turn you use it and cause you to trap that instead of what you wanted. It's cool for preventing double switches but that's all it's consistently good for.

Also you haven't been able to BP trapping effects since Gen V unless they changed that.

Although this is true, you can still Switch Out into a Trapper; for example: Magnezone or Dugtrio. Speaking of which, I could definitely see this becoming a "Niche Core" with Decidueye, working as a trapping tactic. Baton Pass would somewhat be the better option over U-Turn with this niche concept as you wouldn't get Pursuit damaged. (As long as Baton Pass doesn't get changed)

Being a Spinblocker with Defog is pretty interesting, however you still get blasted by Starmie and Excadrill's coverage if uninvested. Also, being not weak to Stealth Rock is nice, as you don't need to worry about taking 24-25% HP; although you're still vulnerable to Spikes and Toxic Spikes. Having an Ability immune to Rough Skin, Iron Barbs, and Rocky Helmet is really good considering those who are going to run a Physical/Mixed variation. If it's HA easable to obtain like how it was in X&Y, and not an event that'll take like +2 years to get, I believe Decidueye has some potential.

It's disappointing that Decidueye didn't get Will-O-Wisp and Leech Seed. But otherwise, I'm satisfied what with we got with.

tfw decidueye gets knock off and sucker punch while incineroar doesn't

 

[Siggu]

1 - investing only enough speed to outspeed the mons you aim to kill that would have no investment on speed themselves

Going with this, you'd need 84 Speed EVs to outrun min Speed Venusaur if running Adamant.

This would leave Decidueye at 197 speed. Slow enough for U-Turn, I guess.

 

[Pikachu315111]

(In case you're wondering, I decided its only story spoilers I don't want to see)

Hmm, I was wondering whether Decidueye was going to be Special (since arrows wouldn't have it make contact) or Physical (since arrows a physical objects), but Long Reach slightly solves that issue. But for those with Overgrow I guess being a mixed attacker also helps. Surprised its Special Defense is that high, though I guess if it wasn't they'd have to put it in Speed and who would want that. :P

Movepool looks alright. It has STABs for both Physical and Special sets (though sadly it doesn't get Giga Drain), Roost or Synthesis for healing, gets Defog and Curse as Egg Moves, and additional coverage isn't that bad with Sucker Punch, Brave Bird, Smack Down, Return, Steel Wing, and U-turn. Looks like it has a lot of tricks to play with and could have a few sets made for it.

Shame Leafage is Physical, I get why but still think there should be a Starter elemental move for each category (not that their offensive stats in their basic stage are that far apart).

 

[gabriel]

Its only special options are literally shadow ball and energy ball. No focus blast, not even leaf storm. 100 sp.atk is such a waste...