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Other Return of the Son of Paraflinch!
- Thread starter Quixim
- Start date
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Oops! My intent wasn't to want to -unban- evasion, but point out how, especially in terms of things like snow cloak and sand veil, I don't particularly see a big difference between them at this point. At any rate, if paraflinch togekiss DOES end up being used a lot for its typing, people might start to have a problem with it.
Mega-Kangaskhan! I didn't even think of that! It's true, that double-flinch-chance is awesome, and it can have other options in its powering up and draining moves to keep it going.
Saying that Klefki "has better things to do" might be incorrect, as the majority of the discussion in the klefki set is whether or not swagkey is the best set to use on it.
Mega-Kangaskhan! I didn't even think of that! It's true, that double-flinch-chance is awesome, and it can have other options in its powering up and draining moves to keep it going.
Saying that Klefki "has better things to do" might be incorrect, as the majority of the discussion in the klefki set is whether or not swagkey is the best set to use on it.
Where's the graphic for Stunfisk with Cheri Berry?
I think, Togekiss is better off not to use paralysis nowadays. Electric-types being immune to all paralysis is a huge deal, when your mere presence is Electric bait. I found more success working with Sticky Web support - it drops speed less than paralysis, but enough that Togekiss is faster even without max speed, it also works against Ground- and Electric-types, and you can use coverage.
Explain this:
Double Team and Sand Attack maxes out at 33.3% hit rate. This takes 6 turns to set up. This is banned.
Serene Grace Body Slam + Thunder Wave forces 30%* hit rate. This takes 2 turns to set up, deals damage, and induces a status effect. This is allowed.
*Serene Grace Body Slam forces 40% non-flinch; Paralysis forces 75% non-paralysis. Probability of getting through Flinch and Paralysis = P(not flinch)*P(not paralysis) = .4 * .75 = 30% success rate
Explanations I will not accept:
1. "It only takes 1 Double Team to snowball"
A: Stage 1 Evasion forces 75% hit rate. That's the same as paralysis. In fact when you use Thunder Wave, you are using permanently using Sand Attack + 2x Scary Face on that Pokemon. That 75% turns into 60% hit rate on the second turn, but 2nd turn Body Slam would have already forced 30% hit rate by then.
2. "Gen VI has nerfed Thunder Wave"
A: Not the point of this topic. Besides, Thunder Wave is still a common threat and will induce paralysis many times for years to come.
3. "You can Baton Pass evasion boosts"
A: Why did you let it set up evasion boosts in the first place?
Repeatedly trying to hit the Baton Passer while it's setting up evasion boosts then complaining when you get swept is the same as repeatedly trying to physically attack the Baton Passer while it's setting up Iron Defense then complaining when you get swept. Back in my day, we had this thing called a Phazer that forces switches.
4. "There are no good Pokemon with Keen Eye, etc."
A: Remember when Hitmontop was considered a bad Pokemon? You only consider certain Pokemon bad because you have no utility for them. But if utility is developed for that Pokemon, then they become valuable. Keen Eye, etc. Pokemon are considered bad because you have banned their utility in the first place.
5. "So, are we supposed to run Swift, Hone Claw, now? But they suck!"
A: This is circular logic.
"Anti-Evasion moves are bad because anti-evasion moves are bad in the first place."
Anti-Evasion moves will become good if there is a need for their purpose. Remember, Technician boosts these to 90 BP.
6. "This will just create one more threat to have to counter!"
A: I thought you wanted to de-centralize the metagame in first place.
Double Team and Sand Attack maxes out at 33.3% hit rate. This takes 6 turns to set up. This is banned.
Serene Grace Body Slam + Thunder Wave forces 30%* hit rate. This takes 2 turns to set up, deals damage, and induces a status effect. This is allowed.
*Serene Grace Body Slam forces 40% non-flinch; Paralysis forces 75% non-paralysis. Probability of getting through Flinch and Paralysis = P(not flinch)*P(not paralysis) = .4 * .75 = 30% success rate
Explanations I will not accept:
1. "It only takes 1 Double Team to snowball"
A: Stage 1 Evasion forces 75% hit rate. That's the same as paralysis. In fact when you use Thunder Wave, you are using permanently using Sand Attack + 2x Scary Face on that Pokemon. That 75% turns into 60% hit rate on the second turn, but 2nd turn Body Slam would have already forced 30% hit rate by then.
2. "Gen VI has nerfed Thunder Wave"
A: Not the point of this topic. Besides, Thunder Wave is still a common threat and will induce paralysis many times for years to come.
3. "You can Baton Pass evasion boosts"
A: Why did you let it set up evasion boosts in the first place?
Repeatedly trying to hit the Baton Passer while it's setting up evasion boosts then complaining when you get swept is the same as repeatedly trying to physically attack the Baton Passer while it's setting up Iron Defense then complaining when you get swept. Back in my day, we had this thing called a Phazer that forces switches.
4. "There are no good Pokemon with Keen Eye, etc."
A: Remember when Hitmontop was considered a bad Pokemon? You only consider certain Pokemon bad because you have no utility for them. But if utility is developed for that Pokemon, then they become valuable. Keen Eye, etc. Pokemon are considered bad because you have banned their utility in the first place.
5. "So, are we supposed to run Swift, Hone Claw, now? But they suck!"
A: This is circular logic.
"Anti-Evasion moves are bad because anti-evasion moves are bad in the first place."
Anti-Evasion moves will become good if there is a need for their purpose. Remember, Technician boosts these to 90 BP.
6. "This will just create one more threat to have to counter!"
A: I thought you wanted to de-centralize the metagame in first place.
Problem Insignia: Sand-Attack isn't banned.
Double Team is. Because it turns basically every competent attack from basically every competent attacker into a game of chance. Paraflinch can be beaten by priority, can be reduced in effectiveness by immunity to one of its elements, can be alleviated though team support like Aromatherapy, and is in general, especially in XY, vulnerable to a number of viable tactics.
Name me a single Technician pokemon that is ever going to run Swift, Feint Attack, etc. They are very few and far-between and usually have much better things to be doing, assuming their always-hit move even runs off their better offensive stat.
The remainder of effective Pokemon have Keen Eye or No Guard, and while there's several good Pokemon with the latter, there's not many with the former.
Double Team is. Because it turns basically every competent attack from basically every competent attacker into a game of chance. Paraflinch can be beaten by priority, can be reduced in effectiveness by immunity to one of its elements, can be alleviated though team support like Aromatherapy, and is in general, especially in XY, vulnerable to a number of viable tactics.
Name me a single Technician pokemon that is ever going to run Swift, Feint Attack, etc. They are very few and far-between and usually have much better things to be doing, assuming their always-hit move even runs off their better offensive stat.
The remainder of effective Pokemon have Keen Eye or No Guard, and while there's several good Pokemon with the latter, there's not many with the former.
I think the only remotely decent reason why double team is banned but paraflinch isn't is paraflinch needs to reset with every new pokemon, and as such is vulnerable to revenge kills, is countered by a reasonably common type (now 2), and it has pretty low distribution. That being said, the real reason evasion's banned is because a couple people threw a tantrum about how unfair it was and we've been living with it ever since.
I think the real problem with evasion is the fact that you are not forced to use the same attack in order to force misses. With Paraflinch you need to keep using the flinch move, so you can't do anything else while forcing misses. With evasion, on the other hand, if I use something like double team Gliscor, I can keep using substitute to wait for that miss. After that I can set up even more evasion boosts and make it even worse. Poison heal makes it easier to take the toll that sub puts on your health, and after stacking 6 evasion boosts and a sub, I can just baton pass it to something ready to set up/sweep.
The only poor logic here is that if Double Team is allowed but uncommon, then you shouldn't have to worry about encountering it too much. If it is allowed and becomes common enough then those moves become valuable too. There legitimacy is DIRECTLY proportionate to the ubiquity of evasion. And for every counter you listed for paraflinch, evasion has a similar amount of work-arounds. What's hard about running Roar anyways? It even goes through Subs and can stop ANY setup sweeper, not just evasion. You telling me Hippowdon or Gyarados with Roar aren't viable?
All I'm asking is for intellectual honesty and consistency from people in their arguments. Make no mistake, I hate facing Double Team as much as the next person, but its ban is of pure preference, not power. All evasion can do is make certain attacks miss. Being paralyzed or flinched on the other hand prevents you from doing ANYTHING, including phazing, healing or boosting. Tell me how that's not worse?
Baton pass all your evasion boosts (and possibly your sub) to Espeon. Roar and Whirlwind can't do shit, and Espeon can set up calm minds to make it harder for your swifts and aura spheres and what not to break the sub. I'm not saying evasion doesn't deserve a shot. Sure, lets see how it affects the meta. However, I can see really deadly combos on the horizon that could be deemed broken.
"All those boosts". Exactly how many free turns are you giving this person before immediately switching to your phaser? That sounds like a deadly tactic for sure, but requiring a maximum of 7 turns for optimum effectiveness is not practical. At best they got 1 evasion boost and 1 Sub up before you phaze. And Crobat with Haze or Aerial Ace doesn't care in the end anyway, and you can STILL have a pokemon with Red Card. I'm not saying it isn't annoying, but this isn't double Wobuffet abttles we are talking here.
This nightmare scenario often gets repeated a lot when arguing against evasion. But, it's not realistic. How was the Baton Passer able to set up all those evasion boosts and Substitute in the first place? Remember, Stage 1 Evasion = Paralysis. You are probably hitting the Baton Passer anyway. Also, I like Perish Song.
EDIT: Ha, Jaroda beat me to it.
I thought the mods just said that we weren't supposed to be talking about evasion?
And anyway, there was already a large discussion/flame war on this subject, which can be found here. http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/ban-justifications.3491032/
And anyway, there was already a large discussion/flame war on this subject, which can be found here. http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/ban-justifications.3491032/
The difference is that
1. I'm not talking about the Evasion clause. I'm talking about evasion vs. ParaFlinch. You don't like Evasion? Fine. But, ParaFlinch is worse.*
2. I mathematically show that ParaFlinch is worse.
*Deck Knight might say otherwise, but it's his word against mine.
I posted this exact image on the first page...
Also, I'd say that evasion moves are still worse to deal with than paraflinch. With evasion, one Pokemon sets up and then it can't be hit, but with paraflinch, one Pokemon has to set up on every one of the opponent's Pokemon, some of which might have immunities to certain aspects of paraflinch. I mean, there's also Sand Attack, which would be more similar to the paraflinch strategy in that you'd have to hit each of the opponent's Pokemon with it (digressing here, but why not use Mud Slap?), but dedicating a moveslot to a nondamaging attack that's so iffy just doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
Don't dare to attack my Levitating Rotom-F with Air Ballon and Magnet Rise!!!
I swear, if they actually gave Rotom-S (what is that S stand for anyway?) Hurricane instead of the lolwut Air Slash, it might actually be somewhat viable on rain teams. Lack of a useful ability may hurt, but at least you can still levitate if hit by a Soak. >_>
Okay how about I bring in Gliscor on some mon it forces out. I set up a sub while you switch in your Gliscor counter (who may or may not have roar/whirlwind, but it will be obvious whether or not it has roar/whirlwind as most Gliscor counters don't have that move). If you don't have the phazing move, I use double team while you realize that I have that move. If I am faster, I'll use double team again. You may hit me or switch to your phazer. I have at least two double teams by then, or a sub at the very least to baton pass if I know you're gonna phaze me with the counter you switched in. Evasion is a devastating strategy and there are some mons that can abuse it very, very well, and the Gliscor + Espeon tandem is just one example. Now think mega absol.
So, this strategy is unbeatable? Or is it more like it isn't a part of the metagame yet and thus people don't consider it in their team building? It will be annoying but you still can't explain how this strategy is ban worthy. It isn't uncounterable by any means, teams just aren't prepared for it yet. If this strategy became SO popular how unreasonable is it to run something with Haze or Red Card, or are you saying that everyone will be running Double Team Espeon because it's just that good? Yeah, it can be a bitch to deal with, but it still doesn't explain why it's ban worthy.
Don't get me wrong; I completely agree with you. This was just my response to Insignia's claim that Paraflinch is worse than Evasion. Paraflinch may force a low hit rate, but it is countered with priority moves, Pokemon immune to paralysis, Pokemon immune to flinch and even Pokemon that are just outright faster and can take out the ParaFlincher in one hit (all of which are currently present in the metagame). Evasion, on the other hand, changes the metagame and makes people run Haze and evasion counter moves in order to counter it, which people think is "centralizing".
I honestly don't even get the deal with "centralizing". Entry hazards force us to run rapid spin. The defog buff is great and all, but I don't understand why we had to live with stealth rock centralizing the metagame around Pokemon that could survive it. Charizard, Yanmega, Moltres and all those guys are great Pokemon, but stealth rock essentially pushed them to lower tiers. I don't understand how that wasn't "centralizing". Anyway, this is off-topic. I'll stop now.
What the hell is this paraflinch. Just run this team http://fusxfaranto.com/uploads/paste/u91Co5gG.txt and you won't even need to rely on paraflinch and still win more consistently than with evade/paraflinch. Only problem that hard stops this team is mega absol but no one runs that and instead opt for the "superior" option in mega luca/gengar/banette and the likes.
Try the team out, tell me what you think. I am almost certain you will not be dissapointed.
Try the team out, tell me what you think. I am almost certain you will not be dissapointed.
Hey, I run Mega-Absol!!! It's great for my Azumarill.
Then you can 6-0 the team I posted. Other teams however aren't as fortunate.
Shit. It stands for Rotom-Shit.
Because RNG. Evasion, unlike paralysis, will snowball every time you don't hit.
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