Poll for our default simulator tiering level

[PKMN1]

Its also an incovenience for those that dont. Hence the idea of simply making a separate ladder for it. (which is what we should actually be discussing)


How about you get off your horse and learn your facts straight. This post was downright insulting to this community and everything it stands for, specially from someone that clearly has no idea what he/she is talking about.

Actually, you seem to be the one ignoring the entire point of Smogon's original existence, which was to help those in the pokemon games learn about competitive battling in all environments, the simulators came way after Smogon had already been created with and made a name for itself.

Most actual fan communities tend to actually do the exact opposite. not to go against the official rules and regulations, but to maybe tweak them here and there and to follow them. Pokemon is the ONLY big competitive game environment where a big group of players actively try and not only ignore, but completely disregard the official rules

 

[raddaya]

Actually, you seem to be the one ignoring the entire point of Smogon's original existence, which was to help those in the pokemon games learn about competitive battling in all environments, the simulators came way after Smogon had already been created with and made a name for itself.

Most actual fan communities tend to actually do the exact opposite. not to go against the official rules and regulations, but to maybe tweak them here and there and to follow them. Pokemon is the ONLY big competitive game environment where a big group of players actively try and not only ignore, but completely disregard the official rules

I love how you're completely ignoring the fact that level 50 isn't and never was the official rules.

 

[Agent Gibbs]

The explain the stuff on the about page, about it being a place for all competitive battlers (like it or not, Nintendo and all world tournaments follow their own rules and their rules are nothing like many of Smogon's, also Ironic because IMO i see more diversity and strategy there than i do here by a long shot), about being able to help at all levels of play, and as the really ONLY place for any help in regards to in-depths Competitive battling it seems like Smogon is ignoring what it's own mission statement.

Sorry to break it to you, but Nintendo doesn't give a rip about competitive metagames. They don't test their metagames for broken threats. They come up with a blanket banlist at the beginning of each generation, and that is not the way Smogon works. Nintendo does not have a balanced competitive metagame, but Smogon does, and we have no obligation to change our competitive metagame to adjust for those who follow an uncompetitive one.

The generation does start with all Ubers unbanned lol. Same for Mega Pokemon. But they do auto-shove Pokemon with BST 670> into Ubers, then unban them if deemed unbroken(see: Kyurem-B in BW). What better time to introduce a Level- tiering change than the start of a new metagame?

If we auto-shove 670+ BST legends into Ubers, then we're not starting with all Ubers unbanned, are we?

The start of a metagame would be the best time to introduce such a change, but I have yet to see why. There is still a power creep compared to level 100 that, while slight, can matter in the long run, especially regarding the effectiveness of stall.

It's a convenience to those who want to use the auto-level feature of the carts

I'm not sure how it's any more convenient than a level 100 feature. It's going to be just as convenient to create a level 100 team on a simulator as it would be to create a level 50 team, maybe even moreso because you don't have to worry about those events where you might have inefficient EVs due to the way stats are calculated at level 50.

Besides, it could also be considered an inconvenience to those who have never had to deal with a level 50 metagame before, so there's that.

"Who cares about Game Freak/Nintendo's official formats, we have our own!" Let me turn this around: Who cares about what Smogon thinks? Why should a fan format take place over an official format? The rules Smogon uses today - level 100, etc. - were largely rooted in a time where there was no official ruleset.

If you don't care about Smogon tiers, don't play Smogon tiers. We don't force anyone to play by our rules unless they play on our simulators. Even then, we still have support for some official formats, namely VGC.

Are you genuinely interested in playing a part in improving the Smogon metagame for months to come or do you just want to win?

"Competitive" in a nutshell, to be honest.

 

[PKMN1]

I love how you're completely ignoring the fact that level 50 isn't and never was the official rules.

except in EVERY official tourney where the main games had it as an option.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

Actually, you seem to be the one ignoring the entire point of Smogon's original existence, which was to help those in the pokemon games learn about competitive battling in all environments, the simulators came way after Smogon had already been created with and made a name for itself.

Most actual fan communities tend to actually do the exact opposite. not to go against the official rules and regulations, but to maybe tweak them here and there and to follow them. Pokemon is the ONLY big competitive game environment where a big group of players actively try and not only ignore, but completely disregard the official rules

Simulators have existed long before smogon...

 

[raddaya]

except in EVERY official tourney where the main games had it as an option.

As an option =/= the only option

 

[Halcyon.]

Actually, you seem to be the one ignoring the entire point of Smogon's original existence, which was to help those in the pokemon games learn about competitive battling in all environments, the simulators came way after Smogon had already been created with and made a name for itself.

Stop this nonsense about Smogon not helping people learn all formats. We do help people with that. You can still learn the Nintendo formats in different sub forums. There is a decently sized community of people that play and discuss VGC. We support VGC games on our simulator. But this is Smogon. We have our own metagame. I for one think it's absurd that Nintendo says I can't use Mew or Celebi. I think that I should have tiers so that I can use a Pokémon like Manectric, which has no use whatsoever in OU, in RU. I also think that Pokémon should be at their maximum potential power level, which is level 100. It puts everyone on an even playing field. One that is the highest possible. This is how Smogon should handle its own metagame. There i an official Nintendo format, and that can be supported too (like it already is), but it should not be the standard Smogon format any more than Mew should be banned.

 

[Agent Gibbs]

the simulators came way after Smogon had already been created with and made a name for itself.

No, NetBattle was developed in 2001. Smogon's copyright for analyses starts in 2004, so assuming that's when the tiering system began, simulators are definitely older.

 

[Colonel M]

Are you genuinely interested in playing a part in improving the Smogon metagame for months to come or do you just want to win?

I'm going to sound like an ass, but let's be stupidly blunt:

What exactly does changing the levels from Level 100 to 50 do to "improving the Smogon metagame for months to come" that's so different from 100?

And I strictly warn you - if you're arguing for sake of matching up with Nintendo, like I said in a post before - we might as well simply convert to VGC and forget about singles in general or (somehow) make it a minor tier.

 

[BROloom]

and for EVERY semi-official and official tourney as well.

Okay, but it's also an inconvenience for those of us who want to battle at 100, the way all stat finalizations were designed. If you play with a team that you let get auto-leveled to 50 on wifi, and smogon is 50, that's great for you, but if I challenge people to level 100 battles on wifi on my friends list, then smogon being at 100 is good for me.

You're mentioning official tourneys, but did we all do double battles, because the VGCs did? No, of course not, but smogon metagame isn't "whatever Nintendo are doing", it's 6v6 singles, and the level 100 makes the most sense for that, especially regarding stat break points. The metagame doesn't follow random wifi or nintendos rules, it follows 6v6 singles with what is possible to do, and since level 100 battles are available, then that makes the most sense.

Actually, you seem to be the one ignoring the entire point of Smogon's original existence, which was to help those in the pokemon games learn about competitive battling in all environments, the simulators came way after Smogon had already been created with and made a name for itself.

Most actual fan communities tend to actually do the exact opposite. not to go against the official rules and regulations, but to maybe tweak them here and there and to follow them. Pokemon is the ONLY big competitive game environment where a big group of players actively try and not only ignore, but completely disregard the official rules

Facebook was originally just made for colleges, to be an exclusive thing, but it adapted to what was better, more successful. While I can't think of any right now, there are numerous medications that were created with the idea to cure a certain sickness, but in the end, cured a different one even better, did they say "well, we made it for this, so you can't use it for that"? No, of course not, they adapted to it's new usage and helped more people that it would have done originally. With smogon, it is still there to help players learn about competitive battling, but also has a larger role in controlling and balancing the most played pokemon metagame in current existence.

I still think the OP needs to be redone, or at least edited to eliminate the bias. Many voters are STILL not understanding that it IS possible to have level 100 battles, unlike the OP is saying that the auto-50 is set in stone.

Gotta agree with this, when I saw the OP said it was impossible, my immediate reaction was "well, if it's not possible to do level 100, then it has to be lowered to level 50", but thankfully, I thought about it, and didn't think that was right at all, and it's not, you can do level 100 battles, so that's what it should be, the only strong argument for it to be level 100 is if it was physically not possible to do level 100 battles.

 

[Metal Sonic]

Colonel M

It's a convenience to those who want to use the auto-level feature of the carts

 

[Zyphex]

You can probably get help with anything by asking the right people, but every decision we make here is based around our own metagames. Smogon is the most in-depth competitive site out there, and while other have their own tiers, they end up very similar to ours more often than not because we have such an in-depth testing process for every decision we make. If you come here looking for competitive advice but you don't have Smogon's tiers in mind, then what system are you using? One you made up? Because Nintendo's ruleset is not that of a competitive metagame, if that's what you're thinking.

But both of you are missing the point. We have no obligation to change our metagame for people who have no interest in playing our tiers in the first place.

My group uses similar rules, with a bit of tweaking to account for the fact that, to us, some of the bans and such sound like something a whiny twelve year old would say. For example, we allow sand veil and snow cloak, but usually restrict it similar to swift swim, mostly because we kind of don't have the time to ev train another Mamoswine or Gliscor, especially if, in my case, I don't run sand storm or hail.


I personally support using both lv 50 and lv 100, lv 50 being for wifi players, and lv 100 being for sims. The metagame has essentially been reset, so it isn't like its a major change in the middle of a generation.

 

[sidakarya]

Lv.50 sets aren't really that hard to adapt from standard lv.100 sets, as I've said in my last post, and in most cases where the damage increase is noticeable, all you need to do is shift a few EVs to keep safe checks safe (and in more cases, you don't even need to do that).

For example, Mega-Mawile needs 252 HP / 128 SDef to avoid a 2HKO from LO-Latios in LV.100. In Lv.50 there's a slight chance of a 2HKO, but this can be remedied by adding a mere 4 SDef EVs.

 

[BROloom]

Colonel M

A convenience does not answer his question of how does it IMPROVE the Smogon metagame for months to come.

All you've said is "change it because it's a convenience for one group of people", the metagame doesn't get changed for convenience, it gets changed to improve it.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

Metal Sonic So bottomline, we have had a system for 5 entire generations that was perfectly fine, and now all of a sudden a vocal minority is yelling that we should change, for no good reason and using an absolutely flawed logic, so therefore we should because its convenient for them. That sounds incredibly legit.

 

[PKMN1]

Sorry to break it to you, but Nintendo doesn't give a rip about competitive metagames. They don't test their metagames for broken threats. They come up with a blanket banlist at the beginning of each generation, and that is not the way Smogon works. Nintendo does not have a balanced competitive metagame, but Smogon does, and we have no obligation to change our competitive metagame to adjust for those who follow an uncompetitive one.

This is really funny considering Competition is EXACTLY what the official tourneys actually is. Also, funny because nintendo has been balancing stuff, just not for SMOGON'S meta, but for THEIRS. If you were correct, then explain why most of the best teams in the VGC use many pokemon, strategies, and even some combo's that many here say is garbage. One of the runner-ups last year used a trick room team and would have won had it not been for a misclick/misprediction. MOst of the teams that used things common here last badly.

Also, for those who think Smogon is bigger than the entire rest of competitive players, i would like to point out, outside of these forums and a couple others, Smogon is considered a joke. I have seen many times where someone starts referring smogon and people either start laughing, ignoring them, or the person is attacked.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

This is really funny considering Competition is EXACTLY what the official tourneys actually is. Also, funny because nintendo has been balancing stuff, just not for SMOGON'S meta, but for THEIRS. If you were correct, then explain why most of the best teams in the VGC use many pokemon, strategies, and even some combo's that many here say is garbage. One of the runner-ups last year used a trick room team and would have won had it not been for a misclick/misprediction. MOst of the teams that used things common here last badly.

Also, for those who think Smogon is bigger than the entire rest of competitive players, i would like to point out, outside of these forums and a couple others, Smogon is considered a joke. I have seen many times where someone starts referring smogon and people either start laughing, ignoring them, or the person is attacked.

http://www.smogon.com/bw/pokemon/jellicent/vgc2012

 

[BROloom]

This is really funny considering Competition is EXACTLY what the official tourneys actually is. Also, funny because nintendo has been balancing stuff, just not for SMOGON'S meta, but for THEIRS. If you were correct, then explain why most of the best teams in the VGC use many pokemon, strategies, and even some combo's that many here say is garbage. One of the runner-ups last year used a trick room team and would have won had it not been for a misclick/misprediction. MOst of the teams that used things common here last badly.

Also, for those who think Smogon is bigger than the entire rest of competitive players, i would like to point out, outside of these forums and a couple others, Smogon is considered a joke. I have seen many times where someone starts referring smogon and people either start laughing, ignoring them, or the person is attacked.

Really? That's your logic? Because some people don't lie smogon, it's a joke?

/vp/ always talks following smogon rules, even if they make fun of smogon users now and then, gamefaqs has the same thing, but with more casual players. In fact, all of the people that put a dislike towards smogon aren't competitive players. Smogon isn't trying to impress non competitive players, it's trying to run a competitive metagame, and if you can find me a more popular one, then you can have a point to argue.

 

[Stellar]

Metal Sonic So bottomline, we have had a system for 5 entire generations that was perfectly fine, and now all of a sudden a vocal minority is yelling that we should change, for no good reason and using an absolutely flawed logic, so therefore we should because its convenient for them. That sounds incredibly legit.

This is most definitely not the case, and it is the fault of this thread that you perceive it as such. I initially brought the topic up for discussion because I thought it was something that was worth discussing. In the hidden thread only open to staff, I made it very clear that I did not support one position over another. It was my hope (a misguided one, I now realize), that we could discuss things civilly and arrive at a conclusion that is best for Smogon's future. I was very against a public thread, because I knew it would degrade into angry factional "yelling" as you so kindly put it. Sadly, it seems I was proven right.

Most of the arguments in this thread have barely any relevance to the topic being discussed, anyway. I can guarantee that pretty much no one with any degree of power on this site is taking the "yelling" seriously at all. This thread contains barely any of the major points brought up in the hidden thread, and the OP (despite being my own) does not accurately represent the arguments as they have developed before this thread was opened.

 

[LastFootnote]

I'm going to sound like an ass, but let's be stupidly blunt:
And I strictly warn you - if you're arguing for sake of matching up with Nintendo, like I said in a post before - we might as well simply convert to VGC and forget about singles in general or (somehow) make it a minor tier.

OK, this myth that GameFreak only cares about Doubles has got to stop. It's complete crap. It's not that they only care about Doubles. It's that the Singles game they're trying to balance is a 3v3 game, not a 6v6 game. That's why Stealth Rock didn't get nerfed in 5th or 6th gen: it's nowhere near as useful or common in a 3v3 environment.

I voted Level 50. It makes max stats easier to calculate from base stats. It's amazing how many people voted Level 100 because of tradition and so that Pokemon can be at their "greatest potential", which is semantic nonsense.

Also, funny because nintendo has been balancing stuff, just not for SMOGON'S meta, but for THEIRS.

THIS. A million times this.

 

[TLCJR4LIFE]

I don't think just because you can't auto-level to level 100 means that sim play shouldn't be at 100.

Most people dont have pokemon with perfect IVs either, but that doesn't stop us from centralizing our meta on the principle that everything has perfect IVs.

 

[Agent Gibbs]

My group uses similar rules, with a bit of tweaking to account for the fact that, to us, some of the bans and such sound like something a whiny twelve year old would say. For example, we allow sand veil and snow cloak, but usually restrict it similar to swift swim, mostly because we kind of don't have the time to ev train another Mamoswine or Gliscor, especially if, in my case, I don't run sand storm or hail.

Well, that "whiney twelve year old" is the democratic process of a collection of voters who have proven themselves to be competitively knowledgeable through suspect laddering. Regardless, we wouldn't need to change our metagame to accommodate for you and your friends because, based on your example, you can change the abilities on your Mamoswine and Gliscor on the simulator with no trouble whatsoever. If you wanted to imitate this on the cartridge, you'd have to go through a lot more work getting an Ability Capsule or breeding a new Pokemon, but the point of simulators in the first place is to remove that work.

This is really funny considering Competition is EXACTLY what the official tourneys actually is. Also, funny because nintendo has been balancing stuff, just not for SMOGON'S meta, but for THEIRS. If you were correct, then explain why most of the best teams in the VGC use many pokemon, strategies, and even some combo's that many here say is garbage. One of the runner-ups last year used a trick room team and would have won had it not been for a misclick/misprediction. MOst of the teams that used things common here last badly.

Oh, I wasn't talking about VGCs. VGCs are an entirely different ballgame. In fact, Smogon supports VGCs on simulators. We even have VGC analyses, so I'm not entirely sure why you brought that up. I'm talking about Smogon's singles banlist vs the singles banlist used by Nintendo for Wi-Fi and such (banning cover legends, the pixies, etc.). While Nintendo makes attempts to balance these metagames, they do it on a very shallow level. They don't do rigorous testing, they just come up with an initial banlist based on legendary status and stick with it. Nintendo doesn't care if DrizzleToed + Swift Swimmer teams destroy other teams in their metagame with little effort. They don't care if Speed Boost Blaziken is overpowered either. Neither of these involve legendaries, so they could care less.

Also, for those who think Smogon is bigger than the entire rest of competitive players, i would like to point out, outside of these forums and a couple others, Smogon is considered a joke. I have seen many times where someone starts referring smogon and people either start laughing, ignoring them, or the person is attacked.

Dude, Smogon is also a joke to bad players who think that breeding a shiny Charizard and beating the Elite Four 100 times makes them the greatest player ever. If people don't like Smogon tiers, they don't play Smogon tiers. I personally don't care.

Also, I'd just like to say that despite the crap they get around here, the competitive section at Serebii (one of the most visited Pokemon sites out there) have a pretty high respect for this tiering system. Pokemon Online, the forum of one of the most popular simulators in recent times, also have a system very similar to ours. If you're thinking of GameFAQs or something as a community that laughs at Smogon, then you're not impressing me.

 

[TLCJR4LIFE]

Perfect IVs aren't really a problem now.

Getting a Pokemon with the 5 perfect IVs takes at most a few hours now, a day or two if you want 31 everywhere.

If the methology involves breeding this does nothing for the myriad of transfer pokemon commonly used in sim play. Such as E-Speed Linoone in the NU tier.

The simulator has never been a realistic representation of wi-fi...and let's be honest, WIFI itself hasnt been either due to the rather widespread use of Pokegen and hacked mons.

 

[Bombkirby]

Is level 50 really that bad? I feel like if level 50 all is implemented for the Smogon metagame there will be whining for a week and then everyone will realize its not that big of a change. I feel like its something worth experimenting and its something that will only be accepted by a majority of the community if they are forced to deal with it for a few days. The most common reason for keeping it 100 all seems to be "because its been this way for years!" and "I don't like change."

Out of all the polls like banned swift swim + drizzle, this one looks like it will have very minor changes to the game. A little bit of different math here and there will be the aftermath right?

 

[sidakarya]

If the methology involves breeding this does nothing for the myriad of transfer pokemon commonly used in sim play. Such as E-Speed Linoone in the NU tier.

The simulator has never been a realistic representation of wi-fi...and let's be honest, WIFI itself hasnt been either due to the rather widespread use of Pokegen and hacked mons.

And still might not be, thanks to some determined hackers that will break through Pokébank's legality checks sometime (if the legal hacks already don't pass).