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I agree with this a lot, Moltres + Blastoise is alot of fun as something like Taunt Roost Moltres can help wear down Florges so that Blastoise can punch through a little bit later. Cool pairing that I haven't used in awhile but was supremely effective when I did use it.
Sadly Moltres doesnt have taunt at its disposal (you probably mixed it up with crobat) but your statement is absolutely correct. Moltres easily pressures florges a lot even with an offensive life orb set thanks to its ability, pressure. Every time florges attempt to recover it will take 2 PPs instead of one, making dealing with it more easily. A Subtoxic set on moltres just make florges suffers and beating her 1v1, pp stalling it to death. It also pairs really well with the likes of toxicroak, working as a great water absorber and beating rock types for moltres.
Sadly Moltres doesnt have taunt at its disposal (you probably mixed it up with crobat) but your statement is absolutely correct. Moltres easily pressures florges a lot even with an offensive life orb set thanks to its ability, pressure. Every time florges attempt to recover it will take 2 PPs instead of one, making dealing with it more easily. A Subtoxic set on moltres just make florges suffers and beating her 1v1, pp stalling it to death. It also pairs really well with the likes of toxicroak, working as a great water absorber and beating rock types for moltres.
Sadly Moltres doesnt have taunt at its disposal (you probably mixed it up with crobat) but your statement is absolutely correct. Moltres easily pressures florges a lot even with an offensive life orb set thanks to its ability, pressure. Every time florges attempt to recover it will take 2 PPs instead of one, making dealing with it more easily. A Subtoxic set on moltres just make florges suffers and beating her 1v1, pp stalling it to death. It also pairs really well with the likes of toxicroak, working as a great water absorber and beating rock types for moltres.
I agree with this a lot, Moltres + Blastoise is alot of fun as something like Taunt Roost Moltres can help wear down Florges so that Blastoise can punch through a little bit later. Cool pairing that I haven't used in awhile but was supremely effective when I did use it.
I have used Life Orb Will-O-Wisp Moltres and it is really good. While you can't Taunt Florges, after burning it, it's a matter of time until you win, so yeah, Moltres is a really good mon to pressure Florges so that other teammates can sweep. Also, Willo also helps to hit Mega Aero on the switch so that it is cripple for the whole match and something else like Pidgeot has a better time dealing with it. Dual Hurricane spam for the win.
My apologies, I always forget how the pressure mechanics work, thanks for the correction atomicllamas
I agree with Doublade going for A- rank. Thanks to eviolite, doublade defense stat is gargantuous being really close to max defense gligar with eviolite with no investment! It is a fantastic offensive glue mon that checks the majority of physical attackers and can pivot through a lot of fighting types that could otherwise be really problematic to handle. Even with its eviolite knocked off it still has a solid defense stat so it isnt severely crippled by it. Plus having something so slurpuff wont sweep your team is always nice to have. Certainly an A- rank in my eyes.
You see Pidgeot, you keep Empo healthy, its simple. Just like how if you see Suicune you don't fodder your Toxicroak. These are basic basic things and that game really doesn't show too much about Pidgeot for the simple reason that the team that got destroyed was played poorly (scarf Will-O, misplaying Mence who destroyed Todd, etc.). Not saying Lilou is garbage, just that the game in question wasn't played optimally which lowers the effectiveness of the argument.
For example, Draco turn 1 game is over as rocks are not up and Rotom-H doesnt die to hazards, can outspeed and stop Pidgeot. There is no reason to predict there as the Intimidate gives Krook a decent matchup and preventing rocks is always high priority.
Do people still use physical Salamence? I haven't seen one in more than a month, all of them are now mixed or defensive. If so, why stay in with Krookodile knowing that it could have been OHKOed turn one if Mence was mixed? Also, Krook can't touch the defensive variant anyway, which can defog aways rocks. The optimal play was, in my opinion, to send Whimsicott, hence the Fire Blast from my part. Secondly, I didn't sack Empoleon, I just predicted a Whims switch in with Hydra and wanted to use that opportunity to get rid of hazards, which was a totally legit play. Why did Todd stay with Krook vs. my Hydra when he had a Whims? Hydra could have easily been scarfed U-turn, so staying in was sacking his Krook, which could have come in handy later on (to pressure my Rotom to not use Volt Switch). If Todd would have hard switched to Whims and the double to Empoleon was successful, everyone would have been like "ooooo place!!!", but suddenly when it doesn't go that way people say that I played poorly. Games have predictions, some go well, some other not, and my thought process told me that the double I was about to make had a low risk and a high reward.
On the other hand, the argument doesn't get its effectiveness lowered because I didn't play in an optimal way. Pidgeot STILL managed to get past mons that SHOULD have beaten it in practice; I'm not talking in paper. Mence was just gonna destroy Pidgeot and the game would have taken a different route, but confusion thing happened, letting Pidgeot open more holes in my team with the help of more confusion. It happened that way and that's it.
Turn 1: Mence is likely either DD or Defensive. Mixed is a possibility but not always seen, regardless todd has absolutely no switch in to mixed mence. Whimsicott is highly valuable as a check to both Mence and Hydrei while also being able to Stun Spore something out of control meaning the switch was too risky turn 1. All factors considered, Knock Off/Stealth Rock is a very reasonable play as you have 3 mons weak to it considering anything OTHER than mixmence will not stop the hazards going up. For this reason you should have dracod. Turn 2: Fire Blast is better but Draco worked out so congrats Turn 4: Hydreigon appeared to be Scarf from logical deduction meaning Rotom wouldnt be scarf sort of invalidating the whole stop him from spamming volt switch as everything would outspeed it more or less. So, under the assumption that Hydrei was Scarfed then it is likely that you could go for either Fire Blast or Flash Cannon, threatening to take out the Whimsicott who will play a pivotal role later in the match. Again, the risk isn't worth the reward when Krookodile is low and has much less utility than Whimsicott. In addition, you risk Empo by doubling on a potential sack, losing your Pidge answer as well as forfeiting the hazard game. When you really look at it it was anything but low risk. Turn 7: You can argue that Doublade is the superior play here as only like HP Fire Cobal threatens you while you threaten everything else. Although, not wanting to get swept by dd gatr is a fair reason to avoid this play. So mence switch is okay. Turn 10: The infamous crazy influential turn. First of all, all things considered there is about a 20ish% chance that Mence dies and Pidge lives that turn due to confusion, crit, roll, miss, etc. Anyways, assume this plays out. Mence AND Pidgeot die on the same turn, double down. Game is on with a couple different ways for both players to win. Instead Pidgeot lives due to this 20% chance and the game continues. Turn 11: Pidgeot loses to everything why the fuck would you will o. He had no reason to keep it at all. Loses to rotom, loses to doublade, takes a fuck ton from poison jab, dies to hydrei on the switch (assuming youre specs or something). You GAVE Pidgeot the opportunity to win. Did you really think he would go Krook when that was basically his only chance at breaking Doublade? That would be insane especially considering you hadn't even revealed your set and Todd could've been thinking you were Scarf Hydrei without U-Turn. Turns 12-13: Doublade is your win con, another reason you should not have made the play with Rotom tbh. Letting this take damage leaves you vulnerable to a ton of different winning lines for Todd.
4 Atk Doublade Iron Head vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Pidgeot: 114-135 (37 - 43.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Lol those Confuses totally mattered.
4 Atk Doublade Gyro Ball (139 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Pidgeot: 196-232 (63.6 - 75.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
even if you didn't hit yourself Pidge lived and fired off another hit.
Like I said before, play proactively don't let it fire off hits unperturbed. Finally, the caliber of replay 100% has to do with the pokemon, it's kind of silly to say that it doesn't. For example, if I smash somebody with Zoroark because they weren't paying attention is Zoroark all of a sudden good? No, it's still mediocre. In the same vein, you were beaten because you misplayed your empoleon and risked it unnecessarily, does that all of a sudden make Pidgeot undeniably broken? No, it doesn't. If you play poorly around a threat no shit it's gonna run all over you. I'm not saying you're bad, I'm saying you played poorly in THAT game and for that reason it's not a good game to judge Pidgeot's effectiveness/brokenness on.
Saw Skankovich mention this, and it wasn't on the list but I'd love to back it.
Umbreon: B -> B+
I remember a while back folks were very quick to hate on Umbreon as a bad mon, low ladder, etc. whatever. I don't see it like that at all, frankly I see it as one of the better balance mons in the tier right now. Seriously, the amount of things that Umbreon can outright beat that are otherwise threats in this metagame is pretty incredible.
Salamence can't do much to Umbreon, which takes any special attack from mixed sets and heals it off. Foul play does a significant amount back. MAero is one of the main reasons I started using Umbreon, as I recall losing a game to a Hone Claws set and was quite frustrated at that, and physical attackers cannot reliably set up on Umbreon due to Foul Play. The wishes it passes are sizable, and heal bell support for the rest of a team is incredible. Feraligatr has a tough time, especially as it can't risk setting up on Umbreon at all. Mandibuzz can do nothing to it, as Synchronize ruins Mandi's day if it Toxics ever, but if it doesn't Umbreon is walled as well. I don't know, I've found it to be an incredible pivot all because of its great bulk and ability to threaten the opponent through its move choice, and I would think that it deserves a similar ranking to mons such as Seismitoad and Bronzong that are currently in that section of the tier.
Saw Skankovich mention this, and it wasn't on the list but I'd love to back it.
Umbreon: B -> B+
I remember a while back folks were very quick to hate on Umbreon as a bad mon, low ladder, etc. whatever. I don't see it like that at all, frankly I see it as one of the better balance mons in the tier right now. Seriously, the amount of things that Umbreon can outright beat that are otherwise threats in this metagame is pretty incredible.
Salamence can't do much to Umbreon, which takes any special attack from mixed sets and heals it off. Foul play does a significant amount back. MAero is one of the main reasons I started using Umbreon, as I recall losing a game to a Hone Claws set and was quite frustrated at that, and physical attackers cannot reliably set up on Umbreon due to Foul Play. The wishes it passes are sizable, and heal bell support for the rest of a team is incredible. Feraligatr has a tough time, especially as it can't risk setting up on Umbreon at all. Mandibuzz can do nothing to it, as Synchronize ruins Mandi's day if it Toxics ever, but if it doesn't Umbreon is walled as well. I don't know, I've found it to be an incredible pivot all because of its great bulk and ability to threaten the opponent through its move choice, and I would think that it deserves a similar ranking to mons such as Seismitoad and Bronzong that are currently in that section of the tier.
Saw Skankovich mention this, and it wasn't on the list but I'd love to back it.
Umbreon: B -> B+
I remember a while back folks were very quick to hate on Umbreon as a bad mon, low ladder, etc. whatever. I don't see it like that at all, frankly I see it as one of the better balance mons in the tier right now. Seriously, the amount of things that Umbreon can outright beat that are otherwise threats in this metagame is pretty incredible.
Salamence can't do much to Umbreon, which takes any special attack from mixed sets and heals it off. Foul play does a significant amount back. MAero is one of the main reasons I started using Umbreon, as I recall losing a game to a Hone Claws set and was quite frustrated at that, and physical attackers cannot reliably set up on Umbreon due to Foul Play. The wishes it passes are sizable, and heal bell support for the rest of a team is incredible. Feraligatr has a tough time, especially as it can't risk setting up on Umbreon at all. Mandibuzz can do nothing to it, as Synchronize ruins Mandi's day if it Toxics ever, but if it doesn't Umbreon is walled as well. I don't know, I've found it to be an incredible pivot all because of its great bulk and ability to threaten the opponent through its move choice, and I would think that it deserves a similar ranking to mons such as Seismitoad and Bronzong that are currently in that section of the tier.
Umbreon's been a popular choice for me throughout the past couple of gens, and I can definitely vouch for its viability as a premier wall and cleric. As said before, Foul Play really sells it, as it can pressurize the vast majority of physically based sweepers and wallbreakers on the switch or even while setting up. I'm definitely in favor of moving Umbreon to a B+ rank for sure.
Foul Play also allows Umbreon to deal with Mega Pidgeot sets that use Work Up, which otherwise exploit wishtect routines as setup fodder.
+1 0- Atk Umbreon Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Pidgeot: 115-136 (37.4 - 44.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Umbreon: 220-261 (55.8 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Having a good way to dissuade Mega Pidgeot from setting up is always a plus on more passive pokemon!
Foul Play also allows Umbreon to deal with Mega Pidgeot sets that use Work Up, which otherwise exploit wishtect routines as setup fodder.
+1 0- Atk Umbreon Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Pidgeot: 115-136 (37.4 - 44.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Umbreon: 220-261 (55.8 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Having a good way to dissuade Mega Pidgeot from setting up is always a plus on more passive pokemon!
Those calcs show that Umbreon is still set up fodder for Pidgeot as it can safely get to +1 and then 2HKO. Umbreon is better checking physical threats and not Pidgeot
But if mega pidgeot is running 0 attack IVs which it should always do:
+1 0- Atk Umbreon Foul Play vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Pidgeot: 117-138 (37.9 - 44.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
In turn, Pidge can easily roost off the damage even with a +1 and fire off some excruciatingly annoying hurricanes that always seem to hax its way through counters on a persistent basis.
Either way, I still agree that Umbreon should go back up to B+ rank. Being able to chew up hits from strong Physical attackers like Gatr, Aero, and Mence and smack them back with their own power is really huge considering the intense level of presence they have in this metagame atm.
To be clear, I'm using 0 Atk IV's, 252 SpA, 252 Spe, 4 Def, and timid nature as the Mega Pidgeot spread for calcs purposes. Two Foul Plays at +1 deal 76% on a minimum damage rolls, so if you subsequently force Mega Pidgeot out it can't come in again on SR. That's not the kind of exchange Mega Pidgeot likes. Switching to something like Empoleon is vastly preferable to keeping Umbreon in, but if you're running out of healthy Mega Pidgeot checks Foul Play gives you an option so you're not completely passive. Seriously, I'm not saying Umbreon is a check; it's just got something up its sleeve to make a Mega Pidgeot user think twice about using it as Work Up fodder.
Beating one pokemon with a specific moveset in a situation where damage is determined by you opponent is a minor niche. Can we talk about the more important aspects of Umbreon and why it deserves a rank up?
Saw Skankovich mention this, and it wasn't on the list but I'd love to back it.
Umbreon: B -> B+
I remember a while back folks were very quick to hate on Umbreon as a bad mon, low ladder, etc. whatever. I don't see it like that at all, frankly I see it as one of the better balance mons in the tier right now. Seriously, the amount of things that Umbreon can outright beat that are otherwise threats in this metagame is pretty incredible.
Salamence can't do much to Umbreon, which takes any special attack from mixed sets and heals it off. Foul play does a significant amount back. MAero is one of the main reasons I started using Umbreon, as I recall losing a game to a Hone Claws set and was quite frustrated at that, and physical attackers cannot reliably set up on Umbreon due to Foul Play. The wishes it passes are sizable, and heal bell support for the rest of a team is incredible. Feraligatr has a tough time, especially as it can't risk setting up on Umbreon at all. Mandibuzz can do nothing to it, as Synchronize ruins Mandi's day if it Toxics ever, but if it doesn't Umbreon is walled as well. I don't know, I've found it to be an incredible pivot all because of its great bulk and ability to threaten the opponent through its move choice, and I would think that it deserves a similar ranking to mons such as Seismitoad and Bronzong that are currently in that section of the tier.
I don't know the arguments for why it's so low in the rankings but I assume they go along the lines of 1. this is a meta dominated by physical attackers 2. The special attackers Bliss walls still get their jobs done (Toise Spins, Nido Rocks etc) 3. It is only good on stall and stall isn't great right now.
Addressing 1. Stall needs to deal with everything you might have to face. This includes special attackers which still exist in this tier. Bliss loses to many (Azelf, Infernape, Trick Specs) but serves as a great blanket check to all of them.
Addressing 2. I think Shankovich dealt with this a while back. All Blissey should be running Stealth Rocks. This is its most viable set because it can use Nido Toise Emp etc as set-up bait for itself. So Blissey can use rocks to turn the tables on the opponent who expects passive submission. I run rocks on all my Blisseys now. With rocks blissey beats toise which is the tiers best spinner right now.
Addressing 3. "It is only good on stall and stall isn't great right now" is a misleading statement. Blissey is mandatory on stall if you're not running curse lax. The clerical/rocks/wishing roles (in addition to the fact it is a blanket check to special attackers) free up other teamslots, so you have a wider range of pokemon to check the broken shit in this tier that it is more important than ever for stall to beat. (#cagethebird) Lax is probably better than Blissey right now but that's it's only competition and that's all the way up in A leaving Blissey plenty of room to move up.
Stall itself is better than people think, it's just that in this restrictive meta most people are forced to run one of two team archetypes (in general): Bliss/Suicune/Fighting Check/Bird Check/back-up Mamo check/Filler and a second one involving Snorlax which I don't have much experience with. Stall itself actually does pretty well within its restrictions, and since blissey plays a key role there I think it deserves to move up.
Now, this may seem odd and I'm pretty sure none of you have used Shiftry in UU, but I came across it on the need of a offensive hazard remover that could beat water types. Looking at the teambuilding compendium I manage with the help of the community, I realized there is not a single thing to do that work.
Maybe Acid Spray Tentacruel works, but I'm not using that on my HO team and no other mon on the list can come into a Scald and beat the most bulky water types, so I asked for help on the UU room on PS and warzoid mentioned Shiftry. That thing fitted the role so perfectly I was about to get a nerdgasm. I went directly for the Smogdex and found this set:
This is the set I've been using to get requirements for Victini's suspect, ending with a 50/17 score, so, if you are interested, click here to check out the complete team.
The first thing that makes me nominate Shiftry is, as I already said, that it is the only offensive defogger that can come into water types and beat them. You know bulky water types like to fire off Scalds here and there to get random burns, well, that's the perfect excuse to use Shiftry, as it doesn't really care too much about the burn, allowing it to come into a, let's say, Suicune's Scald and then either Defog while Cune is being forced out or fire off a LO Leaf Storm, which does about 80% and puts into Knock Off KO range.
Also, another good trait it has is the Dark STAB, being able to use Sucker Punch (which hits surprisingly hard) vs. faster mons, making up for it's not so good speed tier, even though it's the same as Mamoswine but you want to use a +Atk nature anyway. It also can work to sweep offensive teams late game, as Sucker Punch does more than half to unresisted offensive mons. Knock Off hits hard as well and gives Shiftry another cool strong STAB attack and utility move, as water types will be switching out often, allowing it to deal a decent amount of damage to common switchins like Hydreigon while also getting rid of whatever item is being held.
Nevertheless, Shiftry is really frail and dies fast, that's why I have only found it useful in offensive teams, being able to blow away hazards twice per game average, which is more than enough for a fast paced game that does not want defensive stuff that can defog legos 1000 times each game and takes away momentum. So, yeah, Shiftry has a lot of notable flaws, like reliance on a attack boosting nature to be able to hit hard, it's frail as hell, can't come into any attack unless it is resisted, etc, but it does make its job and has a unique quality in the UU metagame, that's why, in my opinion, Shiftry has the characteristics of a B- rank mon.
Here some calcs:
4 SpA Life Orb Shiftry Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 299-354 (74 - 87.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Shiftry Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 125-148 (30.9 - 36.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Shiftry Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Empoleon: 208-246 (56 - 66.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Life Orb Shiftry Leaf Storm vs. 208 HP / 0 SpD Mega Blastoise: 299-354 (85.1 - 100.8%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
4 SpA Life Orb Shiftry Leaf Storm vs. 200 HP / 56+ SpD Vaporeon: 299-354 (66.2 - 78.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Life Orb Shiftry Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Feraligatr: 393-463 (126.3 - 148.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO (outspeeds Adamant Gatr)
252+ Atk Life Orb Shiftry Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Feraligatr: 156-185 (50.1 - 59.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Shiftry Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Aerodactyl: 177-211 (58.8 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Shiftry Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Pidgeot: 187-222 (60.7 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
In balance I would always use empoleon over shiftry for defog and suicune check but in HO I can understand how this can be far more useful. I like the the nomination but unfortunately I dont know how well it would work against the current meta. I'll be testing it out soon to see if I can contribute to its strong points and/or flaws. I can only see this working well in HO which is fine since HO is really effective right now.
Shiftry also has a niche as a chlorophyll sweeper. I've used a set of SD/knock off/sucker punch/seed bomb. Under the sun its a monster and even without sun it can pull off late game sweeps in a similar way too Absol. Definitely support B- rank.
I would like for Haxorus to go down to B rank. Haxorus is basically outclassed as a Dragon Dancer from Salamence and faces competition from Tyrantrum too. All it really has now is Swords Dance, Double Dance, and Choice Band. (Choice Scarf is outclassed by Mence anyways.) It can demolish stall with SD or Double Dance, but it struggles against offensive thanks to rather mediocre bulk and average speed without DD. (Well, 97 isn't bad, but it makes me cry when even with 252 EVs and Jolly nature, I still fail to outspeed Max Speed Life orb Hydreigon lol.) really, it has a niche of demolishing stall and being a pretty good sweeper, but I don't think it warrants it's B+ rank. Haxorus for B
So, this request might fall flat, but I believe this mon deserves it... Jolteon moving from C to B-
For the record, Jolteon has a niche of out speeding mega bird and putting it in its place with a thunderbolt. Also jolty only takes around 40ish% from hurricane and it forces mega bird to switch. So I think jolty might just deserve a rise, as mega bird is a dominant threat at the moment (sorry it's not too detailed, I'm on mobile and mobile sucks a fair bit)
Hotpocket generator aka rotom heat for B+ it checks mamo without SE pretty well walls mega burd can trick scarf to walls stealth rock hurts but its only B+ so rotom heat for B+ sorry but im on mobile
Hotpocket generator aka rotom heat for B+ it checks mamo without SE pretty well walls mega burd can trick scarf to walls stealth rock hurts but its only B+ so rotom heat for B+ sorry but im on mobile
I want Mega Swampert to go to A+ rank. Under rain it is a very dangerous wallbreaker and sweeper, can also be used a rocket since it has very good bulk. Nobody wants to catch those paws, even grass types since swamp has ice punch. Personally, I find it better than the A tank mons so Mega Swamp to A+
