Eh Suicune was S for the longest time but a Heliolisk or something makes it useless. Florges also invalidates Hydreigon but it's still S
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ORAS UU Viability Ranking Thread M2
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Florges is 2HKO'd by Iron Tail.
I'm not entirely clear on my Suicune dropped (it's been a long time) but Heliolisk beating it unless you're at +2 or better (in which case you just have to start spamming Calm Mind and RestTalk) is a good reason for it to have dropped.
I'm not entirely clear on my Suicune dropped (it's been a long time) but Heliolisk beating it unless you're at +2 or better (in which case you just have to start spamming Calm Mind and RestTalk) is a good reason for it to have dropped.
What Yabo said earlier is all true, pidg has trouble switching in even against defensive teams but once it gets in the confusion hax invalidates many of its checks that otherwise would be good. Obviously no good pidg player would stay in on aero even if aero got confused but confusion can deny aero the chance to recover which really fucks up the game. In general bulky mons which rely on recovery to beat bird all get screwed by confusion. Things like sdef mandi umbreon Florges which would otherwise check it fine are very shaky options to deal with pidg due to confusion. Also none of them (nor bliss) can force it out really so pidg can literally just spam hurricane with no drawback. Oh and that's the other thing. People don't often refer to this but hurricane has 16 pp. against fight spam when all else fails you can pp stall close combat. Not so easy with mega pidg. The pp is what makes the mono attacking set so viable.
pidge is very centralizing right now. I usually can't build any more with out a aggron or empoleon now. due to its confuse chance from hurricane, special walls like florges umbreon and curselax are just not as reliable. tbh I kind of think Pidge deserves s rank. even with aero as a switch in you can just confuse it to death (did this to xmarth a while ago). Pidge wrecks offense, balance, and stall if you dont have a counter or a aerodactyl.
I'm one of those guys who plays pretty heavy offense, and I can say that Pidge is just insanity. It's got a speed tier to outspeed anything unboosted, if it gets a free switch it can wreck some shit, can grab momentum in u-turn, can start to wallbreak if it carries roost/refresh and work up, not to mention 100% hurricane accuracy is insanity. I'd go on, but it's late af and I need sleep, so Bird Jesus for S-Rank.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-238399038
This replay speaks for itself. 3 resists and it still went In allowing Todd to easily clean up late game with his cobalion. It just opens up so many holes in balance its not even funny.
This replay speaks for itself. 3 resists and it still went In allowing Todd to easily clean up late game with his cobalion. It just opens up so many holes in balance its not even funny.
LilOu
PO poopyhead
Dislike button, where?
That replay doesn't say jack shit. Empoleon was gone before Pidgeot ever saw the field, Doublade isn't a check in any sense to Mega Pidgeot because of Heat Wave, and LilOuOn played like garbage/was outplayed like hell (I'm sorry, I know you're usually pretty good, but still), including trying to predict a Scarfed Will-O-Wisp.
Those are all things that can happen throughout the course of a battle tho. your empoleon is not going to be healthy 100% of the time. The player is not going to play perfect. lilou tried to predict and it cost him. These things happen in battles all the time. The fact of the matter is that is broke down his team in the end and was the culminating factor to todd's victory.
don't get too hyped and start getting all defensive bud. No need to start calling people garbage either, nobody plays perfect all the time, shit happens.
don't get too hyped and start getting all defensive bud. No need to start calling people garbage either, nobody plays perfect all the time, shit happens.
The only reason it broke down his team is because LilOu played poorly. How do you not see that? Mega Pidgeot did nothing that another fast powerful attacker could not have done late-game. It didn't even punch the necessary holes for Cobalion to sweep, Whimsicott and Krook (by virtue of laying Rocks) did. If you bring another replay of Mega Pidgeot throttling a team against its will, fine, I'll analyze that and if Pidgeot really is that good then I'll concede, but it was NOT the defining factor of that game.
LilOu
PO poopyhead
Pidgeot did throttle my team against its will. I ran calcs on the Pidgeot vs. Mence scenario and knew Mence was taking Hurricane, so I decided for once and for all to kill that shit with Draco; however, got not only confused, but hit myself too. If this hadn't happened, Pidgeot would have been dead for good and I would not have had to play the mindgames of going for Volt Switch with a choiced Rotom-H knowing that he had a Krook, nor making Doublade lose any more HP. A healthy Doublade and my ScarfRotom were needed in order to win the game, but the pressure that Pidgeot brought when getting the confusion hax on Mence + the fact that it was also able to make Rotom come into rocks, take a Hurricane to the face (thanks to my misprediction) and confuse hax Doublade was what finally let Cobalion sweep late game.
"+dodmen:remember when todd was sacking pidgeot"
That's exactly what was happening. He was sacking Pidgeot, but the 100% Hurricane + 30% confusion with no drawbacks just won the game. I would have won otherwise, as I had enough resources to do so.
Just to clarify: I know that hax is part of the game, as we are not playing chess strictly, but Pidgeot just takes this to another level with almost no risk and a high reward.
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Cause haxxing its way past two checks is normal for a mon in A+ am I right? Also doublade is 100% a check I believe u were confusing it with counter as not every set runs heat wave and I dont think todd had it himself. Also saying lilou played like garbage is somewhat harsh considering mons is just a bunch of guessing half the time and the other half is hax
No dog in this fight but Doublade is hardly a check really, it comes in literally once on a Hurricane and can't do it again, ever haha, SS can't hit MPidgeot so he can't even get a little bit of necessary damage, and hell if Pidgeot is at full it takes a Gyro and still wins if Doublade switches in on it. Now I hope I am not offending any Websters Dictionary "well this is the definition of a check" people but in a real game you really can't expect to use Doublade as your Pidgeot switch in, like ever.
LilOu
PO poopyhead
I think we are deviating from the main reason of this: Pidgeot deserves S-rank. Is it not a consensus yet?
Mega Pidgeot has two main sets: Monoattacker with Work Up and the Roost + 3 attacks, performing both of them really well. The first one is a monster, being able to do a number on a lot of defensive teams while the second one drops the boosting move to be able to hit steel types and gains a tool in U-turn to just lure counters and open room to an appropriate mon to deal with them. You don't even have to predict, it brings momentum in a single sec and has almost no risk. Also got at its disposition that so hated 100% accuracy Hurricane, which most often than not works to get past its checks or mons that threaten to stop it (as seen in my battle) through confusion hax. It also got a great speed tier and good special attack. I mean, isn't it clear yet? I'm not trying to say it is broken because I don't want to argue with people that think it's not and this is not a suspect discussion thread, I'm just saying it has all the characteristics of a S-Rank mon.
Mega Pidgeot has two main sets: Monoattacker with Work Up and the Roost + 3 attacks, performing both of them really well. The first one is a monster, being able to do a number on a lot of defensive teams while the second one drops the boosting move to be able to hit steel types and gains a tool in U-turn to just lure counters and open room to an appropriate mon to deal with them. You don't even have to predict, it brings momentum in a single sec and has almost no risk. Also got at its disposition that so hated 100% accuracy Hurricane, which most often than not works to get past its checks or mons that threaten to stop it (as seen in my battle) through confusion hax. It also got a great speed tier and good special attack. I mean, isn't it clear yet? I'm not trying to say it is broken because I don't want to argue with people that think it's not and this is not a suspect discussion thread, I'm just saying it has all the characteristics of a S-Rank mon.
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This should have been done a while ago, but after reading all the posts here as well as the council's own discussion, Pidgeot is moving up to S. Short explanation:
Additionally, Tentacruel is moving down to A- which was universally agreed upon but it just never got around to happening. Other discussion points:
Heliolisk down to B+ (way too frail to check some of the stuff that it really should be able to, like Crobat and Pidgeot. Rotom-C is arguably better)
Rotom-H up to B+/A- (checks two huge threats in Pidgeot and Mamoswine, decent status spreader, Choice Specs threatens balanced builds with the combination of its STABs and Trick. SR weakness hurts it though)
Darmanitan from B+ to B/B- (meta is extremely unkind to it with Aero, Salamence, Feraligatr, Hydreigon, Suicune all being so dominant, Choice Scarf sets are kind of too slow and easily worn down)
Doublade from B+ to A-
Moltres from B- to B
Alomomola B to B+ (personally disagree with this one cause it's soooo passive)
Crobat from A to A- (just too much pressure on it, severe competition from Salamence as a Defogger who also checks Fighting types better)
Edit: saying that it has zero defensive utility is kind of misleading seeing as it can come in on a decent amount of stuff for such a powerful Pokemon. Off the top of my head there's Krookodile, Swampert, and Shaymin.
Additionally, Tentacruel is moving down to A- which was universally agreed upon but it just never got around to happening. Other discussion points:
Heliolisk down to B+ (way too frail to check some of the stuff that it really should be able to, like Crobat and Pidgeot. Rotom-C is arguably better)
Rotom-H up to B+/A- (checks two huge threats in Pidgeot and Mamoswine, decent status spreader, Choice Specs threatens balanced builds with the combination of its STABs and Trick. SR weakness hurts it though)
Darmanitan from B+ to B/B- (meta is extremely unkind to it with Aero, Salamence, Feraligatr, Hydreigon, Suicune all being so dominant, Choice Scarf sets are kind of too slow and easily worn down)
Doublade from B+ to A-
Moltres from B- to B
Alomomola B to B+ (personally disagree with this one cause it's soooo passive)
Crobat from A to A- (just too much pressure on it, severe competition from Salamence as a Defogger who also checks Fighting types better)
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FINALLY. I like the bump for doublade as well. It checks a lot of common stuff in this meta and I was actually thinking about posting about it. Rotom heat seems like a decent addition to the A ranks as well and I'd have to agree on crobat, it just is not the same as it was and is just too pressured.
You see Pidgeot, you keep Empo healthy, its simple. Just like how if you see Suicune you don't fodder your Toxicroak. These are basic basic things and that game really doesn't show too much about Pidgeot for the simple reason that the team that got destroyed was played poorly (scarf Will-O, misplaying Mence who destroyed Todd, etc.). Not saying Lilou is garbage, just that the game in question wasn't played optimally which lowers the effectiveness of the argument.
For example, Draco turn 1 game is over as rocks are not up and Rotom-H doesnt die to hazards, can outspeed and stop Pidgeot. There is no reason to predict there as the Intimidate gives Krook a decent matchup and preventing rocks is always high priority.
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Ok seriously the first post for blissey to move up was in april like??? I know it hasn't been talked about for a while but it's getting kinda silly. Blissey to B
I disagree with alomomola moving up- yeah I guess it beats the large majority of mamos, but while as a stall player stuff being set up bait is inevitable, alomo really takes it to the next level where it basically offers a free switch to half the meta. It's a good wishpasser but considering the only real favourable meta change is Mamoswine it shouldn't move up.
Also repeating that umbreon should move up to B+ but cba repeating reasoning. Darm definitely needs to drop, it's just not very good right now because Fire STAB is over prepared for.
I disagree with alomomola moving up- yeah I guess it beats the large majority of mamos, but while as a stall player stuff being set up bait is inevitable, alomo really takes it to the next level where it basically offers a free switch to half the meta. It's a good wishpasser but considering the only real favourable meta change is Mamoswine it shouldn't move up.
Also repeating that umbreon should move up to B+ but cba repeating reasoning. Darm definitely needs to drop, it's just not very good right now because Fire STAB is over prepared for.
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Alomomola thrives much more on balance than it does stall. You're right, it is really passive. But it's going to be walling a large portion of the metagame that can't boost because it's just that bulky. While it does offer a free switch to a lot, it doesn't really mind pivoting because of Regenerator, meaning it won't get worn down by hazards and weak hits. I do think it should move up just for the sheer fact of how much it walls. Being balance's best answer to Mamo is just an added bonus.
Yeah, Momo is a staple on like 75% of my semi-stall teams for its ability to pivot into a ton of things and pass fat Wishes on the way out. Sure, it's passive, but it's rarely in for more than a turn or two. And while it's definitely setup bait for a lot of things (Sub Gatr and Sub Cobalion being the big ones), many of those things really don't love switching into Scald, Toxic or Knock Off.
Heliolisk: I agree with it moving down to B+. There are three sets Heliolisk can use, all of them have their positives and negatives. The best being Life Orb which capitalizes on Heliolisk's great coverage, it does allow Heliolisk to be worn down much more easily. Between Life Orb damage from Volt Switching on Pokemon it can't outright KO (i.e Snorlax, Florges, Blissey), entry hazards, and the opponent scouting coverage, it's easily just brought down to a point it either dies of Life Orb recoil or entry hazards. It's also extremely frail, meaning it can't check a lot of faster Flying-types that it should, especially after all that damage that racks up.
Rotom-H: I agree with this being moved up to B+. I'm all for it moving due to its versatility, as Choice Scarf sets can act as decent revenge killers, Choice Specs threaten a lot of balanced builds, and defensive sets can spread status with ease. As stated in dodmen's post above, it also checks two huge threats in Mega Pidgeot and Mamoswine. There are some flaws that prevent this thing from going to A- imo. The first of which is its weakness to Stealth Rock, which, for a Pokemon that is going to be pivoting most of the game with Volt Switch is quite detrimental. The second is the weakness to Water, due to it being an Electric-type you'll want it to be dealing with the Water-types most of the time and the fact Rotom-H has a Water weakness really sucks. The third is the reliance on a secondary STAB that drops Special Attack by two stages, for offensive variants, especially Choice-locked ones, this is very detrimental, as it allows dangerous setup sweepers, such as Salamence and Feraligatr, to have free turns to setup.
Darmanitan: Darmanitan's move down is inevitable imo. It's reliance on Flare Blitz to punch holes really holds it back considering the immense recoil that comes with it. Not to mention, Darmanitan's not sitting in too good of a Speed tier, with a lot of threats being able to outspeed it and Choice Scarf not being too good of a set. It is going to be pivoting a lot due to the fact a lot of Fire-resists can handily take a Flare Blitz and weakness to Stealth Rock and vulnerability to all other entry hazards aren't helping it. It's also quite frail and easily revenge killed.
Doublade: I also agree with Doublade moving up to A-. It's a great blanket check to a lot of physical attackers and some bulky setup sweepers (especially CurseLax). It's also one of the few complete stops to a Slurpuff sweep. It has some things holding it back from going any further than A- though, such as pitiful special bulk, reliance on Eviolite for bulk, and reliance on Shadow Sneak to hit quicker threats among those problems. Doublade is also one of the few viable spinblockers in the tier. While Doublade is reliant on Shadow Sneak to hit quicker threats, and Shadow Sneak is really weak unboosted, Shadow Sneak has good neutral coverage, only having one resist and one immunity.
Moltres: Not too experienced playing against or with it so can't really say anything.
Alomomola: I'm not too sure on whether to move this up or let it stay where it is to be completely honest. On one hand, it's very passive, giving a lot of threatening setup sweepers the opportunity to have free setup, especially Substitute users. It's also got quite the bad special bulk and is susceptible to Toxic. On the other hand, it's an amazing Wish passer, and checks most physical attackers that cannot setup while being able to pivot due to Regenerator. It's also one of the few great answers to standard Mamoswine (non-Freeze Dry).
Crobat: Another one I'm not too sure whether to move or to stay. It's got an amazing bunch of resistances, including a quad resistance to Fighting, backed by quite decent natural bulk and access to U-turn makes it a good pivot. It's also one of the few Defog users in the tier and can run one of the quicker Taunts in the tier. It's more recently starting to face quite the amount of competition imo from both Mandibuzz and Salamence, as Mandibuzz runs a nice Taunt + Defog set and can have mixed bulk, Salamence has access to Intimidate making it arguably the better Fighting-type check and has access to a phazing move in Dragon Tail. Crobat is also highly pressured nowadays.
Just some thoughts.
Rotom-H: I agree with this being moved up to B+. I'm all for it moving due to its versatility, as Choice Scarf sets can act as decent revenge killers, Choice Specs threaten a lot of balanced builds, and defensive sets can spread status with ease. As stated in dodmen's post above, it also checks two huge threats in Mega Pidgeot and Mamoswine. There are some flaws that prevent this thing from going to A- imo. The first of which is its weakness to Stealth Rock, which, for a Pokemon that is going to be pivoting most of the game with Volt Switch is quite detrimental. The second is the weakness to Water, due to it being an Electric-type you'll want it to be dealing with the Water-types most of the time and the fact Rotom-H has a Water weakness really sucks. The third is the reliance on a secondary STAB that drops Special Attack by two stages, for offensive variants, especially Choice-locked ones, this is very detrimental, as it allows dangerous setup sweepers, such as Salamence and Feraligatr, to have free turns to setup.
Darmanitan: Darmanitan's move down is inevitable imo. It's reliance on Flare Blitz to punch holes really holds it back considering the immense recoil that comes with it. Not to mention, Darmanitan's not sitting in too good of a Speed tier, with a lot of threats being able to outspeed it and Choice Scarf not being too good of a set. It is going to be pivoting a lot due to the fact a lot of Fire-resists can handily take a Flare Blitz and weakness to Stealth Rock and vulnerability to all other entry hazards aren't helping it. It's also quite frail and easily revenge killed.
Doublade: I also agree with Doublade moving up to A-. It's a great blanket check to a lot of physical attackers and some bulky setup sweepers (especially CurseLax). It's also one of the few complete stops to a Slurpuff sweep. It has some things holding it back from going any further than A- though, such as pitiful special bulk, reliance on Eviolite for bulk, and reliance on Shadow Sneak to hit quicker threats among those problems. Doublade is also one of the few viable spinblockers in the tier. While Doublade is reliant on Shadow Sneak to hit quicker threats, and Shadow Sneak is really weak unboosted, Shadow Sneak has good neutral coverage, only having one resist and one immunity.
Moltres: Not too experienced playing against or with it so can't really say anything.
Alomomola: I'm not too sure on whether to move this up or let it stay where it is to be completely honest. On one hand, it's very passive, giving a lot of threatening setup sweepers the opportunity to have free setup, especially Substitute users. It's also got quite the bad special bulk and is susceptible to Toxic. On the other hand, it's an amazing Wish passer, and checks most physical attackers that cannot setup while being able to pivot due to Regenerator. It's also one of the few great answers to standard Mamoswine (non-Freeze Dry).
Crobat: Another one I'm not too sure whether to move or to stay. It's got an amazing bunch of resistances, including a quad resistance to Fighting, backed by quite decent natural bulk and access to U-turn makes it a good pivot. It's also one of the few Defog users in the tier and can run one of the quicker Taunts in the tier. It's more recently starting to face quite the amount of competition imo from both Mandibuzz and Salamence, as Mandibuzz runs a nice Taunt + Defog set and can have mixed bulk, Salamence has access to Intimidate making it arguably the better Fighting-type check and has access to a phazing move in Dragon Tail. Crobat is also highly pressured nowadays.
Just some thoughts.
I kinda agree with Alomomola moving up, it's definitely passive but I think that some of that passivity is somewhat migated due to the fact that it can run a Rocky Helmet set very effectively to punish physical attackers that it could otherwise end up giving free turns to. With lefties, Alomomola is slightly more passive in that it has a harder time punishing u-turners or recklessly played physical attackers. Losing out on the additional passive recovery kinda sucks if you end up taking a burn or something, but I find that between Wish and Regenerator, Mola is still incredibly hard to wear down when played properly. It also has a big advantage over the other wishpassers in that most of the time it won't need to stay in to heal itself since it can both heal itself and pass a wish to a teammate at the same time, which makes it extremely effective on balance when paired with something like Mega Aggron or Granbull. In my opinion, it seems to be a bit more effective at what it does than pretty much everything else in B, and seems to fit more with the mons in B+. Sorry if this post isn't very coherent, I am pretty out of it right now and just wanted to throw my 2 cents in since I've used Mola a ton
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After using moltres for a while I can confirm that it is B rank material. Its dual STAB combination is absolutely fantastic, being incredibly difficult to switch into for a lot of teams and the fact that many of its good switches despise getting burned, it can run will-o-wisp to cripple its checks like aerodactyl and snorlax (snorlax is temporary cause rest talk and stuff, but it is good to annoy for a while and pressure it). Also its typing is really useful cause it provides a fighting resistance, which is really nice to have in this metagame and while its speed tier isnt the best one it can get the jump on pretty important targets like heracross, adamant entei and mamoswine and check with its respectable bulk. Sadly, having moltres on your team force you to run hazard removal but it goes really well with plenty of spinners like forretress and mega blastoise so isnt so bad. Pretty cool wallbreaker and certainly agree with moltres going to B!
I agree with this a lot, Moltres + Blastoise is alot of fun as something like Taunt Roost Moltres can help wear down Florges so that Blastoise can punch through a little bit later. Cool pairing that I haven't used in awhile but was supremely effective when I did use it.
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