NU and Beyond

[Princess Bubblegum]

As the UU list is compiled, and the bans are hammered out, I was left thinking, wow these are some good pokemon, sure this is the face of the new UU, but not everyone wants to play with pokemon of that caliber. Once UU is hammered out, I feel we should then focus our attention on NU, as people want this metagame which is evident if you just ask around. But we face the same problem as we did last generation, problems with officalizing, we just could not get NU as an offical smogon tier. Hopefully this gen with more pokemon, and a higher UU tier, people will be looking for the alternative of NU. I have also seen people that wish to split the NU tier into 2, becuase of the huge amount of pokemon.

Looking at huge OU useage stats, I have compiled a list of possible NU tier pokemon, now of course this list will signifigantly change once UU useage stats are out, but this is just to give you a general idea of what we are dealing with. I used the basic 53 of the UU cutoff as the baseline, of couse if this where real a better baseline would be calculated, but again this is a general list.

Hide

Absol
Accelgor
Aggron
Alakazam
Archeops
Aron
Blastoise
Carracosta
Claydol
Clefable
Cradily
Crustle
Deoxys-D
Drapion
Dugtrio
Durant
Exeggutor
Froslass
Gallade
Gardevoir
Golduck
Golurk
Honchkrow
Houndoom
Krookodile
Lanturn
Lapras
Leafeon
Lilligant
Mandibuzz
Mismagius
Nidoqueen
Porygon-Z
Raikou
Rhyperior
Rotom-H
Sceptile
Scolipede
Scyther
Serperior
Sharpedo
Shuckle
Slowking
Staraptor
Stoutland
Swellow
Tangrowth
Uxie
Venomoth
Walrein
Weezing
Wobbuffet
Yanmega

I have also done the same thing if there was a possible split in NU, again the 53 thing, and this is just top tier pokemon there, if this tier existed it would be forced to extend all the way to pokemon like Farfetch'd.

Hide

Alomomola
Altaria
Bouffalant
Braviary
Butterfree
Cacturne
Cinccino
Cobalion
Cryogonal
Drifblim
Druddigon
Emboar
Feraligatr
Gigalith
Glaceon
Gligar
Hariyama
Hitmonchan
Hitmonlee
Jumpluff
Kabutops
Lickilicky
Luxray
Magmortar
Magneton
Manectric
Marowak
Medicham
Miltank
Mr. Mime
Murkrow
Octillery
Omastar
Parasect
Pikachu
Poliwrath
Probopass
Rampardos
Regirock
Registeel
Rhydon
Rotom-C
Samurott
Shedinja
Shiftry
Slaking
Solrock
Steelix
Tangela
Tauros
Torterra
Typhlosion
Ursaring

What are your thoughts on this? Would you like to see the NU tier officalized, and possibly is split? If not explain why not.

 

[XienZo]

Splitting NU, while making it neater for organization purposes, makes it much harder to "officialize" since it'll also split the number of people that'll actually play either tier, thus making it unlikely that either half of the NU tiers will get enough people to justify making them official Smogon ladders.

 

[Stratos]

Or we could just, you know, put all the strong UUs into BL, make it a legit tier, and then have a UU and NU like we used to, only slightly stronger and more varied.

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

Splitting NU, while making it neater for organization purposes, makes it much harder to "officialize" since it'll also split the number of people that'll actually play either tier, thus making it unlikely that either half of the NU tiers will get enough people to justify making them official Smogon ladders.

I have to agree, spliting the tier early on would cause too many problems, prehaps once people start playing.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Noy yet, if only because Cobalion will not be that low in UU for long. Its one of the top UUs right now.

 

[Vladimir]

NU will be a tier with stuff like Huntail, Registeel and Aerodactyl in it, so it's a good idea to have it officialized. Considering it was actually competitively playable and enjoyable last gen too, this time around it might become a great tier for those sick and tired of weather.

However, on PBC's NU tier it's extremely hard to consistently find a battle. Like, a battle every half an hour or even less often occurs around there, and it seems like nobody actually cares about NU enough to play on the simulator. Most people just go ahead and argue about having a number of tiers below NU, despite the very prevalent possibility of all of these tiers being... dead, to say the least.

So, in order to avoid unnecessary actions, how about seeing how many battles are played every month in the servers' NU tiers (till Smogon gets one), and then deciding whether we should split the tiers or not?

 

[Cshadow]

Or we could just, you know, put all the strong UUs into BL, make it a legit tier, and then have a UU and NU like we used to, only slightly stronger and more varied.

Except Borderline is just a banlist for UU, so, uh, we can't just put all the strong UU's there. They'd have to be broken.

 

[SHUCKLE MAN]

I think we should simply make as many usage tiers as there's significant demand for. If there gets to a point where nobody really seems interested in a lower usage tier, then we can stop. Based on what happened last generation, I imagine there'll be interest in 4 (OU, UU, and then two tiers below).

But I think that's what their plan has been all along, anyway. So yes, I think the NU tier will be "split", as long as enough people are interested in it happening. It could be "split" into more than two, if there's hundreds of people wanting to play a 5th metagame.

If you read this thread in the Policy Review, they're clearly open to the possibility of going past NU is needs be: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103735

 

[Virizion]

If it follows that list in the OP, then Cinccino, Murkrow, and Rotom-C will be NU? I doubt that..

Also, I want to vote but I can't yet, I'll vote tomorrow night (when my first warning expires).

 

[Gerard]

I think the number ot tiers should increase in every gen, that because the number of pokes around is increased by the hundreds per gen, so this gen i think a LU (Little Used) Tier should be made, the cutoff would be like the OU one or near it, it would NOT be an exact 53 pokes since the cut should be about 3.4% of UU, like 40 or 60 pokes, this let's more pokes be used and makes more metagames where more people can enjoy (and if you want a weatherless metagame NU and LU sound like a perfect place)

 

[Benlisted]

I'd very much like to see two tiers below UU, whatever they are called is merely a formality. NU last gen was awesome, so I'm fairly sure I'd enjoy playing whatever is established below UU. Naturally the NU would have to be set up before the NNU can be established from usage stats, but eventually two more tiers would be very cool.

However it all pretty much does depend on playerbase - Doubles and Triples are both pretty dead because noone on PO is interested, so time will tell really.

 

[jas61292]

From what I have heard discussing it with people, I believe it is very likely there will be a tier between UU and NU this gen. There are just so many Pokemon that it just makes sense, as long as there are people willing to play it. I know I would.

 

[NatGeo]

Agreeing with several other people, UU and NU need a tier btween them, witha name to imply that (though please - little used will NOT be tolerated). NU is going to be really fun once it gets settled out this generation, I can already tell you that, though some of them might have to leave a little early once their other abilities are released (I'm looking at you, Serperior.)

 

[133k]

I guess I wouldn't mind an official tier, though it could thin out those that play UU a bit...

 

[FrostFire]

I think that NU should be split as a tier; I've actually forgotten how many pokemon exist now (600-something?) and with the advent of the Eviolite, this makes many NFE's viable in OU, UU and NU respectively - making more pokemon viable to use than ever before. In addition, if OU is cut off at only 53/ 600-whatever, and UU is a similar size, then that leads to an NU tier that contains more than half of the pokemon in existence. Which seems dumb. So yeah :P

Oh, and I think it would be nice if the tier was officialised, though I also think that depends on what kind of player-base it gets this gen.

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

Several people have brought up some pokemon, that would appear to be odviously broken in that tier as a listed. Again this is just a round about list to see what kind of pokemon we a looking at. And even though a pokemon like Cobalion would appear to be nowhere near the second NU tier, I would of said the same thing about Kyurem to UU people months ago, moving it up for list purpose now is subjective.

 

[Gerard]

There should obviously be BL (UU) BL1(tier between UU and NU) BL2 (NU) where the pokes that would be way to much for those respective tiers (maybe we can do enough tiers to make luvdisc viable :P)

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

I said this before in another thread, but if you wanted to make enough teirs to make luvdisc viable, we would need a tier where pokemon like Ivysaur is viable. I don't think anyone wants to do that far.

 

[Virizion]

I said this before in another thread, but if you wanted to make enough teirs to make luvdisc viable, we would need a tier where pokemon like Ivysaur is viable. I don't think anyone wants to do that far.

Ivysaur is viable in NFE.

 

[133k]

I said this before in another thread, but if you wanted to make enough teirs to make luvdisc viable, we would need a tier where pokemon like Ivysaur is viable. I don't think anyone wants to do that far.

Eviolite Ivysaur in UU.

Can I haz internets?

No, but really, I think that Ivysaur w/eviolite could be viable in NU; UU may be a stretch, though.

 

[Sprocket]

My only issue with splitting up NU is what to call the top NU tier to differentiate it from the bottom NU. Perhaps:

Rarely Used (RU) - Top usage for Pokemon not in UU or higher. This would be top tier of current NU, and double as a ban list for NU.
Never Used (NU) - Everything else. This would be the bottom tier of NU.

I wouldn't worry much about lower tiers having high or low usage. OU will always dominate.

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

Maybe Ivysaur was a bad example, replace it with something of caliber with Luvdisc though, perhaps Pidgeototto.

 

[133k]

My only issue with splitting up NU is what to call the top NU tier to differentiate it from the bottom NU. Perhaps:

Rarely Used (RU) - Top usage for Pokemon not in UU or higher. This would be top tier of current NU, and double as a ban list for NU.
Never Used (NU) - Everything else. This would be the bottom tier of NU.

I wouldn't worry much about lower tiers having high or low usage. OU will always dominate.

If RU is just a banlist, would that count as "splitting the tier"? Likewise, is BL "splitting" UU? Not that I think that that idea is wrong, I just thought that "splitting the tier" meant putting another official tier in between UU an NU; not a banlist.

EDIT: Just to be clear I have no problem with splitting NU; I just don't know how to go about doing so in a "practical" matter, as either way NU will be a pretty massive "tier".

 

[Gerard]

I wasn't being serious ¬¬

PS: the RU/LU (rarely/lesser used*) tier shouldn't have to be a ban list for NU, since that would be an actual default effect (pokemon banned in a tier are usable in the next but not in any tier below) like BL last gen, BL was effectively OU since non of the pokes on it could be used in UU (less NU), so that tier would be a place where NU and LU/RU pokes could be used but not BL nor OU/UU

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

Banlists need to exist for several theoligal premises of the smogon doctrine, look around and you will understand what I mean, even though they may seem pointless, for anything to have a valid point here they are needed.