NP: UU - Bye Bye Bye

[franky]

I don't think anything will come close to Cresselia as a defensive behemoth. While Milotic does come close, there are two things that keep it UU status in a nutshell: 1) Prone to entry hazards 2) Coverage problems. Unfortunately, a majority of the metagame does not apply to Milotic with the latter problem. If it doesn't have Hidden Power Grass per se, then it cannot hit Water-types and if it doesn't have Ice Beam it will fall to Grass-types easily. The common set runs Haze in the slot, but if Milotic is seen lacking one then it will fall prey to boosting Pokemon. The first problem is probably a big reason why it is not going to be BL since Spikes is common in the metagame and it places Milotic is 2HKO range for certain Pokemon like Arcanine, Rhyperior, Moltres, etc. Unlike Cresselia, double-switching will not hurt it since it is immune to Spikes, but on the other hand, Milotic is part Water-typing and double-switching can easily exploit it and rack up its damage quickly. If we look at the defensive characteristics, Milotic will not wall a portion of the metagame with the reasons I stated. It either has to run a set of Recovery / Haze / Surf / Ice Beam / Hidden Power Grass to wall a majority of the metagame. Edit: I'd like to add that Milotic falls prey to common offensive combinations and unlike Cresselia, it was simply impregnable even if you're using offensive combinations to attempt to break it.

 

[Yuggles]

The thing is, if someone is neutral about whether Venu/Molotic is broken, they're going vote 'no suspect' simply because they don't want the metagame to get screwed up again. That isn't too much to ask, is it?

And it's not like you can't make an entire nomination out of snippets from other posts anyway. I could very easily make a legit nomination for 'no suspects' even if I actually have some whacked-out opinion.

(This was responding mostly to Heysup)

 

[lmitchell0012]

Please think before posting, Froslass and Latias were banned because they were broken as clearly demonstrated by weeks of playtesting and discussion. The fact that you don't get to abuse them anymore to compensate for a lack of skill doesn't mean the metagames are "fucked up". If you need broken Pokemon to have to fun, feel free to get some friends and challenge them with whatever teams you wish, otherwise stop interrupting legitimate discussion with your inane whining, thanks.

The weeks of playtesting didn't prove a thing. Froslass and latias have plenty of counters in their respective tiers. You guys are just too tired of dealing with them so you choose to ban them instead. Now you're doing the same thing with milotic. I'm sorry, but I'm just not happy with the way that the tiers are going at this point.

 

[Anachronism]

Status also fucks up Milotic, while Cresselia had several viable ways to remove status. The entry hazard thing is also big. Cress only took Stealth Rock. It think that it takes something approximately equal to Cresselia (-calm mind) to warrant a ban under the defensive characteristic. Hell, It could be argued that Cresselia might have stayed if it weren't for CM.

 

[Heysup]

I never claimed that Milotic was broken, and while I generally agree that that is a horrible argument, there are some cases where a pokemon that counters a broken pokemon isn't broken itself. For example, Umbreon counters Latias. Are we going to call Umbreon a suspect simply because it beats Latias? That is silly. Now, recognize this isn't a perfect example, but you get the point; A pokemon capable of countering a broken pokemon isn't necessarily broken. Is Chansey broken because it keeps Moltres from definite suspect status?

I apologize for the slippery slope argument before, but it is true.

That was not the point at all.

You are taking what I said and either misunderstanding it or twisting it into something that is undeniably incorrect. What I said was: "Not banning a broken/not broken Pokemon for the reason that they check other would-be broken Pokemon is fallacious.", I did not say that "if a Pokemon checks another broken Pokemon, then that Pokemon is broken" because that's obviously false.

You're really only proving my point about including a reasoning requirement....

I don't think anything will come close to Cresselia as a defensive behemoth. While Milotic does come close, there are two things that keep it UU status in a nutshell: 1) Prone to entry hazards 2) Coverage problems. Unfortunately, a majority of the metagame does not apply to Milotic with the latter problem. If it doesn't have Hidden Power Grass per se, then it cannot hit Water-types and if it doesn't have Ice Beam it will fall to Grass-types easily. The common set runs Haze in the slot, but if Milotic is seen lacking one then it will fall prey to boosting Pokemon. The first problem is probably a big reason why it is not going to be BL since Spikes is common in the metagame and it places Milotic is 2HKO range for certain Pokemon like Arcanine, Rhyperior, Moltres, etc. Unlike Cresselia, double-switching will not hurt it since it is immune to Spikes, but on the other hand, Milotic is part Water-typing and double-switching can easily exploit it and rack up its damage quickly. If we look at the defensive characteristics, Milotic will not wall a portion of the metagame with the reasons I stated. It either has to run a set of Recovery / Haze / Surf / Ice Beam / Hidden Power Grass to wall a majority of the metagame. Edit: I'd like to add that Milotic falls prey to common offensive combinations and unlike Cresselia, it was simply impregnable even if you're using offensive combinations to attempt to break it.

I find it ironic that almost everything you say about Milotic applies more to Cresselia.

Coverage problems? Milotic's two-move coverage is actually much better than Cresselia's, but Cresselia can't actually stop most Pokemon from setting up unlike Milotic. If Cresselia runs Psychic, it either fails to hit opposing psychics by using Hidden Power Fighting, Steel-types and Dark-types with Shadow Ball, Steel-types with Signal Beam etc. Not to mention that Cresselia has a pathetic SpA stat compared to Milotic's base 100 SpA stat with a 95 BP coverage move as opposed to 70 BP like Cresselia.

Falls prey to boosting Pokemon without Haze? Hi, my name is Cresselia, and I am the easiest Pokemon to set up on besides Chansey.

Spikes are not as prominent without Froslass, and even so it is not 2HKOed by Arcanine, Moltres, or Rhyperior (it outspeeds you).

To me the main difference between Milotic and Cresselia is that you essentially need to use two Pokemon to reliably get passed Milotic, while one Pokemon can set up and end the match vs Cresselia.

Status also fucks up Milotic, while Cresselia had several viable ways to remove status. The entry hazard thing is also big. Cress only took Stealth Rock.

Please enlighten me as to why Cresselia is less vulnerable to status even though status actually makes Milotic harder to kill. Rest + Sleep Talk? Oh wait Milotic can do that better than Cresselia...Uh Substitute...sure, but now your Cresselia is using the infamous "252 EVs in every stat with 16 moves" set. Milotic can use Substitute in that scenario as well.

 

[Anachronism]

Restalk Milotic has the same problem...You can't use Ice Beam / Surf / Haze / HP Grass / Rest / Sleep Talk / Recover on it. If Milotic was relegated to Restalk then it wouldn't be such a problem. Recover is one of the reasons it is good. Marvel Scale is certainly a nice aspect of restalk, but even with the boost Milotic has inferior defenses (restalk doesn't use max def). There is also the fact that Cresselia has a few more speed points and therefore has to run fewer to get to the same benchmarks. Also, you can't tell me that Milotic enjoys toxic as it stalls out that bulky water or gets in haze wars.

Substitute and Psycho Shift are both options for Cresselia to remove status from itself that Milotic can't use as well.

Thank you for clarifying your statement, and I apologize for misreading it. However, I don't believe that Milotic is broken, so I am not justifying that we keep a broken pokemon, nor state a logical conjecture for why I believe Milotic should stay. It was meant to be a general comment, not an argument. You can guarantee that my voting paragraph will be incredibly logical. I will post my paras in the this thread for you to tear up if you like.

 

[capefeather]

@ lmitchell0012

You really have some nerve telling us that we don't know what we're doing. Please tell us what profound wisdom you have gained that makes you better at tiering than the Tiering Contributors are. For the record, Latias has no true counters. Tyranitar and Scizor are 2HKO'd by Specs Surf, and Specs Draco Meteor nukes most of everything else. Blissey might get Tricked, rendering it useless. Froslass in UU has a sort of "counter cost" attached to it. You basically can't stop it from setting up a layer of Spikes as you go to your "counter". There have been legitimate arguments against these, but evidently they weren't enough to overturn the experiences of the majority of informed battlers.

 

[Heysup]

The weeks of playtesting didn't prove a thing. Froslass and latias have plenty of counters in their respective tiers. You guys are just too tired of dealing with them so you choose to ban them instead. Now you're doing the same thing with milotic. I'm sorry, but I'm just not happy with the way that the tiers are going at this point.

Evidence is not evidence? Have fun trying to argue that.

I don't understand your problem. It seems that you're just upset about Pokemon that you're abusing getting banned. Please elaborate on why you don't think Pokemon are being banned for valid reasons, because we have a very biased system against banning a Pokemon. Every voter must present valid reasoning before they vote.

If you are upset with the fact that we balanced tiers and that you can't use broken Pokemon, then that's unfortunate.

 

[yond]

The weeks of playtesting didn't prove a thing. Froslass and latias have plenty of counters in their respective tiers. You guys are just too tired of dealing with them so you choose to ban them instead. Now you're doing the same thing with milotic. I'm sorry, but I'm just not happy with the way that the tiers are going at this point.

Listen maybe you don't understand the definition of a counter. Maybe I could enlighten you on what I think of when people throw on around the word counter.

A counter is a Pokemon that can freely switch into a certain Pokemon under all circumstances and take care of this Pokemon easily. ( at least thats how i see it) and I can at least say for Latias there was no Pokemon that could do that. (blissey gets tricked.) As far as support Pokemon its different I suppose considering Froslass was broken and banned because it had the ability to set up 2 or 3 layers of spikes with ease and spin block for itself at the same time. Making it very easy for certain pokemon, Raikou or Moltres, to sweep through the game. I think maybe you're just tired of having to use your mind to create a sucessfull team without the brokeness and ridiculously helpful support of broken pokemon.

As far as Milotic goes I think it's as questionable as its going to get. Both arguments make sense and I haven't decided myself yet.

 

[Anachronism]

Hey look. We are talking about Latias in the UU megathread.

 

[Phantom_IV]

Anachronism has a point there. While he may have misinterpreted a comment, he's right that banning pokemon is a slippery slope. Simply put, your top pokemon will always have some Uber characteristics, and that's what makes them the top ones. After you ban one, a new top pokemon will emerge, and that one will be have some uber characteristics, too. And so on and so forth. It's an endless cycle unless you draw a line and say "This is manageable."

"Balanced" is a subjective term, and it involves quite a bit of compromise. The only way you'd truly balance pokemon is to eliminate everything until you just have magikarp and caterpie running around. And magikarp is clearly uber in said case.

 

[Thund91]

Hey look. We are talking about Latias in the UU megathread.

Might as well. All people are doing is continuously pointing fingers at each other and arguing back and forth while remaining in the exact same position as when they first started arguing.

The thing that I find frivolous though is that Milotic, Venusaur, and Rhyperior seem to be nominated just so we actually have something to vote on. If they aren't broken why make them suspects? I'm probably going to get attacked for making that bold statement but while laddering I've tried extremely hard to think of Venusaur and Milotic as overwhelming Pokemon like Froslass or Raikou and I don't see it at all. I've played against and used both Pokemon (especially Milotic) for many rounds and I don't see how they're broken at all. So if they're somehow banned just because "we need something to vote on" than I believe my fellow UU peers have gone crazy.

 

[Shy Glizzy]

Don't feed the trolls people. Has anyone seen a rise in Sandstorm teams lately? Shuckle in a sandstorm is quite possible the most annoying pokemon in the game.

 

[Heysup]

The thing that I find frivolous though is that Milotic, Venusaur, and Rhyperior seem to be nominated just so we actually have something to vote on. If they aren't broken why make them suspects? I'm probably going to get attacked for making that bold statement but while laddering I've tried extremely hard to think of Venusaur and Milotic as overwhelming Pokemon like Froslass or Raikou and I don't see it at all. I've played against and used both Pokemon (especially Milotic) for many rounds and I don't see how they're broken at all. So if they're somehow banned just because "we need something to vote on" than I believe my fellow UU peers have gone crazy.

Last I checked, no one's reasoning is "because we want to vote on something". If you're going to make a general statement about people who've made legitimate nominations, you're going to need actual evidence, and at least do better than "I don't think their broken so they must be nominating them for a completely different reason than what they should be!"

 

[Thund91]

Last I checked, no one's reasoning is "because we want to vote on something". If you're going to make a general statement about people who've made legitimate nominations, you're going to need actual evidence, and at least do better than "I don't think their broken so they must be nominating them for a completely different reason than what they should be!"

Last I checked quite a few people were saying things like "I don't believe x is broken, but I'm going to nominate it anyway."

I don't make anything up, I've actually seen posts like these and if you don't believe something is broken you should vote no suspects instead of nominating something that forces you to spend more than 5 minutes when creating a team.

 

[Phantom_IV]

Last I checked, no one's reasoning is "because we want to vote on something". If you're going to make a general statement about people who've made legitimate nominations, you're going to need actual evidence, and at least do better than "I don't think their broken so they must be nominating them for a completely different reason than what they should be!"

Well, even if there were no good nominees, when a request for suspect pokemon goes out, people will nominate something. Indeed, the very fact that we claim another suspect test is necessary leads people to believe something is broken! For a lack of something better, people choose prominent pokemon in the metagame, and a bunch of other people jump on the bandwagon. Heck, people like having topics to post on. If it were stated that "this is how UU is and always will be," people would get bored.

So while this is not concrete evidence that these pokemon were nominated on a whim, it is a definite caveat. All too often, people jump on the bandwagon. Usage statistics support this. Firebot is a living example of this. Doug's April Fool's joke supported this, as he got prominent players to actually think he was serious and back him. In the same way, if you say "there are suspects here," people will find them. It's like a witch hunt. And all too often things get burned hastily.

 

[MegaKick]

Don't feed the trolls people. Has anyone seen the fact that every other team is sandstorm lately? Cradily in a sandstorm is quite possible the most broken pokemon in the game.

Fixed for ya ;) It's a good thing 2 members of my new team carry trick.

Anyway, I've been bringing some fun stuff into UU to try to bring back the spirit of unpredictability. Dodrio, ursaring, lapras, meganium, hitmonchan (iron fist choice band focus punch wrecks offensive venasaur), etc. The viability is not dead yet, it's just in a coma at the age of 110 having a seizure and a heart attack. In the middle of Canada where no one can find it. But not dead yet.

 

[Rolf]

Interestingly, the team I'm using is more hyper-offensive in nature (I have a hard team using it as well because of this) and gets past Milotic much easier than my main bulky offense team does, so I'm finding all the "Milotic is shifting the metagame towards balance" complaints difficult to reconcile with my experiences.

Doesn't change the fact that offense has shifted bulkier just because you're having success with a sort of hyper-offense. To tell you the truth, my most successful team this metagame has been a sort of hyper offense as I rarely ever switch. It consists of a simple sr lead/Kabutops/Feraligatr/Houndoom/Typhlosion/filler - I've been running Venu there since it patches up some weaknesses and is fing good. Again, it doesn't change the fact that for the most part almost all of what I've seen is bulky offense.

You guys are just too tired of dealing with them so you choose to ban them instead. Now you're doing the same thing with milotic. I'm sorry, but I'm just not happy with the way that the tiers are going at this point.

I personally don't like it when people tell me how I thought, and I'm sure others don't appreciate this much either.

Might as well. All people are doing is continuously pointing fingers at each other and arguing back and forth while remaining in the exact same position as when they first started arguing.

I'd like to feel like I've made at least a couple productive posts :(

The thing that I find frivolous though is that Milotic, Venusaur, and Rhyperior seem to be nominated just so we actually have something to vote on. If they aren't broken why make them suspects? I'm probably going to get attacked for making that bold statement but while laddering I've tried extremely hard to think of Venusaur and Milotic as overwhelming Pokemon like Froslass or Raikou and I don't see it at all. I've played against and used both Pokemon (especially Milotic) for many rounds and I don't see how they're broken at all. So if they're somehow banned just because "we need something to vote on" than I believe my fellow UU peers have gone crazy.

I for one am not voting just to have something to vote on. I legitimately think these pokes should be voted on and possibly be bumped to BL.

Anachronism has a point there. While he may have misinterpreted a comment, he's right that banning pokemon is a slippery slope. Simply put, your top pokemon will always have some Uber characteristics, and that's what makes them the top ones. After you ban one, a new top pokemon will emerge, and that one will be have some uber characteristics, too. And so on and so forth. It's an endless cycle unless you draw a line and say "This is manageable." "Balanced" is a subjective term, and it involves quite a bit of compromise. The only way you'd truly balance pokemon is to eliminate everything until you just have magikarp and caterpie running around. And magikarp is clearly uber in said case.

I get where this is coming from I guess, but it doesn't change the fact that the "line" is different for everybody and we're never going to come to a unanimous conclusion. Are the characteristics to define an uber meant to be used to create a stable, balanced metagame (which I believe we have at least partially right now) or to be used solely to ban suspect threats based on the present state of the metagame (In which banning Milotic/Venusaur might hold credence)?

You guys have been comparing Milotic to Cresselia... why? We banned Cresselia essentially for the offensive characteristic. If it didn't have Calm Mind I'm pretty sure we'd still have it in UU with the weak Psychics flying around asking for setup. It's as much setup for Rhyperior if not more than Registeel, basically anything remotely bulky could come in and set up on it. Bulky Sub/DD Feraligatr was my personal favorite that round, eating Psychics behind Subs and getting free DDs then proceeding to rape you. Milotic really doesn't need Haze to keep you from setting up. It has the same special attack as Starmie with 60/85/85 vs 95/79/125 defenses and arguably better typing to boot. Of course it's missing the 115 base speed, but that doesn't change the fact its Surfs, Ice Beams, and HP Grasses are coming off of a quite decent 237 spA with 4 EV investment. Not much can set up on it.

 

[FlareBlitz]

@Roflkip I never denied that offense has shifted bulkier, just that it's shifted bulkier because of Milotic. As I mentioned before it's more because of spikes; if Milotic were removed from the tier tomorrow I doubt we'll start seeing any more frail sweepers around. Hell we'd probably see fewer Houndoom and more Arcanine and such.

 

[Banedon]

Nothing will ever wall a mon with 416 Atk and perfect coverage.

If nothing walls Rhyperior then perhaps it should be nominated under the offensive characteristic? It has many different viable sets too - e.g. Encore Alakazam beats Substitute versions if you're brave enough to switch in on the Substitute, but dies to Rock Polish. Weezing can burn it, but Substitute blocks the burn. Moltres can switch in on EQ and threaten HP Grass, but if it switches into Rock Polish instead it's dead. And so on and so forth.

Personally I've found Rhyperior pretty hard to handle and the analysis page seems to agree (Rhyperior has no 100% counters). But then again, considering I'm terrible at this game + I don't play that much, I won't nominate anything this round.

 

[Rolf]

@Roflkip I never denied that offense has shifted bulkier, just that it's shifted bulkier because of Milotic. As I mentioned before it's more because of spikes; if Milotic were removed from the tier tomorrow I doubt we'll start seeing any more frail sweepers around. Hell we'd probably see fewer Houndoom and more Arcanine and such.

I think we would. My guess is we probably would see less Houndoom but probably because Toxicroak would have lost its #1 setup opportunity, although I've found it's good enough stand-alone that I would still use it, heck it just lost its largest check. I think people would be surprised (or maybe not?) at how much their standard bulky offense teams rely on Milotic to check random frail offensive threats. Chansey, Registeel, Altaria, Weezing, all of them really lack any solid STAB options and don't have anything near the 100 base SpA that Milotic possesses. Arcanine is still pretty solidly checked by Rhyperior/Regirock while good ol' doom isn't.

This is why I wanted to try a "suspect" metagame for a couple weeks - all of what I've said is personal theory but with a small test we could see the shifting that takes place without Milotic and see if it's really as crazy as people think it would be/if there really would be shifting over to frail offense/if grass types lost their throne/other observations. It'd help to check and see if what I projected earlier would be correct as right now it's just my opinion and obviously others don't see it that way :) At the very least I'd be wrong and people would keep playing with Milotic like most want, but who knows?

 

[SJCrew]

I find it ironic that almost everything you say about Milotic applies more to Cresselia.

Coverage problems? Milotic's two-move coverage is actually much better than Cresselia's, but Cresselia can't actually stop most Pokemon from setting up unlike Milotic. If Cresselia runs Psychic, it either fails to hit opposing psychics by using Hidden Power Fighting, Steel-types and Dark-types with Shadow Ball, Steel-types with Signal Beam etc. Not to mention that Cresselia has a pathetic SpA stat compared to Milotic's base 100 SpA stat with a 95 BP coverage move as opposed to 70 BP like Cresselia.

Falls prey to boosting Pokemon without Haze? Hi, my name is Cresselia, and I am the easiest Pokemon to set up on besides Chansey.

Spikes are not as prominent without Froslass, and even so it is not 2HKOed by Arcanine, Moltres, or Rhyperior (it outspeeds you).

To me the main difference between Milotic and Cresselia is that you essentially need to use two Pokemon to reliably get passed Milotic, while one Pokemon can set up and end the match vs Cresselia.

Ok heysup, I can tell you for a fact most of that is crap. If Cresselia were as easy to set up on as you claimed, it wouldn't have been banned in the first place.

Most sweepers couldn't set up on it because they'd already be facing a +1/+1 Cress by the time it got in, and most likely get 2HKOed. You'd think stuff like Alakazam or Drapion would be an easy answer to it, with Encore and Taunt respectively, until you face insurance killers like Spiritomb and Dugtrio, who send the both of them packing without a fight.

Milotic might prevent setups with Haze, but Cresselia sets up right alongside them, stalls them out by attacking and recovering, then threatens to sweep your team afterward. This was actually very hard to stop via conventional means, and was mostly the reason everyone had to resort to random gimmicks or putting Toxic on all of their walls just to take it out, most of which failed to impregnate the SubCM set.

Milotic does wall a lot of stuff in UU fairly well, but not as much as Cresselia. Cresselia has way better inherent defenses, and has the added ability to become a dangerous sweeper. I'm not sure what kind of grudge you have against it, but surely you realize Milotic is susceptible to mostly the same issues as Cresselia (Encore, Toxic, Trick, other walls) minus everything that made Cresselia good to begin with (CM, CM, more CM).

If nothing walls Rhyperior then perhaps it should be nominated under the offensive characteristic? It has many different viable sets too - e.g. Encore Alakazam beats Substitute versions if you're brave enough to switch in on the Substitute, but dies to Rock Polish. Weezing can burn it, but Substitute blocks the burn. Moltres can switch in on EQ and threaten HP Grass, but if it switches into Rock Polish instead it's dead. And so on and so forth.

Personally I've found Rhyperior pretty hard to handle and the analysis page seems to agree (Rhyperior has no 100% counters). But then again, considering I'm terrible at this game + I don't play that much, I won't nominate anything this round.

It sounds like a Salamence dilemma, except Rhyperior simply does not have the speed to get past its counters. Bulky Water and Grass types might only be able to get in once or twice, but that's good enough to keep Rhyperior from ripping up UU.

 

[shrang]

It sounds like a Salamence dilemma, except Rhyperior simply does not have the speed to get past its counters. Bulky Water and Grass types might only be able to get in once or twice, but that's good enough to keep Rhyperior from ripping up UU.

Rhyperior doesn't need the speed, lol. Yes, Milotic can switch in and threaten to OHKO, but a 30% Milotic isn't really going to help you against anything else.

 

[Heysup]

Ok heysup, I can tell you for a fact most of that is crap. If Cresselia were as easy to set up on as you claimed, it wouldn't have been banned in the first place.

You are going to factually tell me that your opinion / perception is correct and that mine isn't? -___-. You're not the first one to attempt this, your opinion is not fact.

Rhyperior doesn't need the speed, lol. Yes, Milotic can switch in and threaten to OHKO, but a 30% Milotic isn't really going to help you against anything else.

Except against the huge amount of Pokemon that fail to do 30% to it (think Choice Scarfed Pokemon), and the other significant amount that it can outspeed and recover (think Donphan, Spiritomb, Regirock). And to be honest, who cares? If Milotic always gets a KO then what exactly does that tell you?

 

[shrang]

Anyway...

The weeks of playtesting didn't prove a thing. Froslass and latias have plenty of counters in their respective tiers. You guys are just too tired of dealing with them so you choose to ban them instead. Now you're doing the same thing with milotic. I'm sorry, but I'm just not happy with the way that the tiers are going at this point.

Weeks of playtesting makes it apparent to an informed player on how manageable a Pokemon is. If you actually the metagame, you would easily see that some Pokemon are possibly too much better than others.

About your rather uninformed speel on Froslass and Latias, Froslass didn't need counters, since it's not exactly sweeping, but it certainly removed all your counters to sweepers like Raikou, Moltres and Swellow with Spikes. Unless you ran a designated anti-lead to deal with Froslass, you weren't stopping her from getting a layer or more of Spikes, and if your opponent decided to run bulky Lass later in the match your anti-lead is utterly useless. Latias is probably the only one I think was reasonably fine, but I can easily see where the anti-Latias sentiment comes from. Name ONE Pokemon that can switch into Latias without being crippled or killed by one of its attacks. The only one I can think of is CB Snorlax, which can take anything that Latias can throw at it and Pursuit on the way out, but if it decides to Trick, unboosted Pursuit will never put Latias out of commission, and she'll come back later and Trick CB onto some other Poke that doesn't want it, not to mentioned an unboosted Snorlax stuck in Pursuit is probably the biggest setup fodder ever.

Milotic is probably going to end up being voted on, but is likely that it isn't going to be banned (There is plenty of anti-ban sentiment here, I assure you). If you're not happy with how the tiers are run, you can just go play your own rules and find people who are willing to accept them, I guess.