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np: ORAS UU Stage 3.1 - Sex on Fire [Victini Remains BL]
- Thread starter Sam
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Oh OF COURSE
Why hasn't anyone thought of this before!? Mega Pidgeot isn't broken! Pory2 hard counters it!
GENIUS
I'm building around that now
Is anyone going to use pidgeot in the test
Make sure its specs
Alright, so regarding Pidgeot.
I still don't think in and of itself it's worthy of a ban. It's a very fast, hard-hitting mon like Aerodactyl or Salamence. However, with a single move, it can seriously make or break a game. Hurricane spam is the only thing that really makes it this dangerous, but to be completely honest, that's all it needs. I run Heat Wave on my bird, but it sees such little use because it hits zero targets anyways. Hurricane spam is really just broken.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-242525550
This is what happens when bad connection and battles at three in the morning connect.
(don't tell me it's a shitty game, focus on that Pidge singlehandedly won that match)
I still don't think in and of itself it's worthy of a ban. It's a very fast, hard-hitting mon like Aerodactyl or Salamence. However, with a single move, it can seriously make or break a game. Hurricane spam is the only thing that really makes it this dangerous, but to be completely honest, that's all it needs. I run Heat Wave on my bird, but it sees such little use because it hits zero targets anyways. Hurricane spam is really just broken.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-242525550
This is what happens when bad connection and battles at three in the morning connect.
(don't tell me it's a shitty game, focus on that Pidge singlehandedly won that match)
To be fair, the guy you played was... odd to say the least and should have won with Aero but the confusehax in Hydreigon is what really shows Pidgeot's brokenness.
That's honestly not the best example of Pidgeot being broken. There is a 30% chance to confuse Hydreigon and then a 50% chance it will hurt itself for a total of a 15% chance for Pidgeot to win this exchange. This does happen sometimes, as that replay attests to, but you can't count on it and it's a pretty poor use of your mega slot to use it as a last-ditch gamble like this. There's a reason competitive players run Choice Scarf over Quick Claw - failing to activate 3 times out of 4 on game-critical turns is just not a flaw you can live with, even if it is awesome that 1 in 4 times (approximately) it actually does work.
I don't want to undersell confusion, because it really is an important part of the whole Mega Pidgeot package, but it's good precisely because of Mega Pidgeot's other excellent attributes. That confusion is dangerous because Mega Pidgeot is fast, because it's powerful enough to force switches, because it's just bulky enough to live attacks from relevant threats. A Pidgeot player doesn't gamble for 15% or even 25% chances to pull a hax win if he can help it (that's a losing bet), he uses Pidgeot at every opportunity to apply pressure and then takes advantage of any free turns that are randomly created by confusion.
I'd like to put forward a very different replay. In this replay Mega Pidgeot sweeps an opposing team without ever inflicting confusion:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-242353002
This demonstrates how easily Mega Pidgeot can dispatched unprepared pokemon and even entire teams. Blissey without thunder wave is helpless setup fodder, Blastoise doesn't hit hard enough to OHKO, and everything else here crumples to +1 Hurricanes. Usually I have to remove scarfers or other defensive checks before Pidgeot can sweep like this (I was taking a risk with Blissey there, but correctly predicted it was an unconventional set and not carrying status), but this just demonstrates the raw power that Pidgeot possesses. Pidgeot blows holes in enemy teams, and every time you switch to try and save something he's threatening to create opportunities with confusion. It's a very solid and effective package.
I may very well vote to ban Pidgeot, but if I do it's not going to be because he occasionally haxes a win. It's going to be because of the huge amount of pressure he exerts while threatening to create free turns for his team with confusion if you don't shut him down and force him out immediately.
I don't want to undersell confusion, because it really is an important part of the whole Mega Pidgeot package, but it's good precisely because of Mega Pidgeot's other excellent attributes. That confusion is dangerous because Mega Pidgeot is fast, because it's powerful enough to force switches, because it's just bulky enough to live attacks from relevant threats. A Pidgeot player doesn't gamble for 15% or even 25% chances to pull a hax win if he can help it (that's a losing bet), he uses Pidgeot at every opportunity to apply pressure and then takes advantage of any free turns that are randomly created by confusion.
I'd like to put forward a very different replay. In this replay Mega Pidgeot sweeps an opposing team without ever inflicting confusion:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-242353002
This demonstrates how easily Mega Pidgeot can dispatched unprepared pokemon and even entire teams. Blissey without thunder wave is helpless setup fodder, Blastoise doesn't hit hard enough to OHKO, and everything else here crumples to +1 Hurricanes. Usually I have to remove scarfers or other defensive checks before Pidgeot can sweep like this (I was taking a risk with Blissey there, but correctly predicted it was an unconventional set and not carrying status), but this just demonstrates the raw power that Pidgeot possesses. Pidgeot blows holes in enemy teams, and every time you switch to try and save something he's threatening to create opportunities with confusion. It's a very solid and effective package.
I may very well vote to ban Pidgeot, but if I do it's not going to be because he occasionally haxes a win. It's going to be because of the huge amount of pressure he exerts while threatening to create free turns for his team with confusion if you don't shut him down and force him out immediately.
The annoying thing about this whole concept is that Pidgeot does ONE thing. All of its sets do the exact same thing regardless of what moves they're carrying. And this one thing that it does has very usable and good counters. This isn't Victini or Hawlucha or even Staraptor where nothing can stop it more than once. So long as you actually prepare for it Pidgeot isn't getting to win the game. It's necessary to prepare for threats at the top of the food chain, nothing is wrong with that. If Pidgeot ends up leaving then Heracross and co. will likely become the new thing that "makes balance unplayable". Sure, if you don't prepare for the stuff that's really good then no duh you're going to get run over when you face it. That's why people use it. Does that mean it's inherently broken? Hell no. Metagames centralize around top tier threats and if you fail to prepare for them then you deserve to get left behind, simple as that.
bird is no longer the word.
So how do you prepare for the haxxing God? Packing a Persim Berry Rotom-Heat?
On balance bulkier builds you need to bring a pokemon that is capable of resisting its STAB hurricane and heat wave like Empoleon, Aeroadactyl, Rotom-H etc. Switching over to offense, the most common check is roost Mega Aerodactyl, which can be beaten via confusion hax. Other options I've used to try and beat Pidgeot on offense are thunderbolt Azelf has a good chance to ohko Pidgeot before it megas with a life orb, and the unconventional scarf Heliolisk. The main problem with most of Pidgeot's chekcs is that they either don't have reliable recovery, or if rocks are on the field and Pidgeot gets the confusion, then one hit and all of a sudden Pidgeot just beat one of its checks. The confusion chance is really what puts Pidgeot over the top. Being able to beat blanket checks like Vaporeon and Florges and being able to punish checks that can only take a few hurricanes just makes Pidgeot so abusable.
Personally, I have faster mons or things with strong priority that can force some switches, and it takes 25% from hazards so things like a Banded Entei can put it in bad range if it doesn't carry roost/predict damage.
they all carry roost
I've seen some weird shit in low-ladder.
We all have, I've been memed by scarf offensive tenta.
Yeah I have no idea how anyone could say Mega Pidgeot is ok
First I disagree that Heracross and co would make balance unplayable of Pidgeot left since nobody complained about him before Pidgeot was the threat it is now, but I digress. You mention that there are usable counters to Pidgeot, and in theory, I would agree. However, as mentioned before, the confusion really puts it over the top. You are right that Pidgeot literally only spams Hurricane, which isn't that broken if not for confusion. I wish I saved a replay, but Pidgeot managed to take down the supposed best Pidgeot counter in Mega Aero with confusion. Rocks and Toxic put Pidgeot at 70%, and I switched in Aero to "counter" pidgeot but of course it gets confused. With rocks my Aero is now at something like 48%. I click pursuit on te obvious switch but I hit myself in confusion and am now at like 30% against a Suicune. In one turn Pidgeot managed to cripple its check and now I had nothing to switch in on Hurricane. I also lost that game because my +2 Infernape could not sweep as Pidgeot was able to revenge it. Had it been hit with Pursuit, it would be in KO range for Stealth Rock but it wasn't.
Yes you have to prepare for top tier threats, but in Pidgeot's case you could prepare in the best way you can and still get boned by hax. The only mons that can take multiple Hurricanes and hit itself in confusion are Emp, Blissey (set up bait without Twave), and specially defensive P2 to an extent since no Lefties hurt so you are really limited in options. Other stuff like Florges, Snorlax, Umbreon etc take a good chunk from Hurricane and are as good as dead if they hit themselves in confusion.
You will never see Aero muscling past Swampert unless it's nearly dead, even if Stone Edge crits. Hydreigon is not gonna hax itself past Florges via Dark Pulse flinches. Top tier threats must be prepared for, but Pidgeot makes itself stand out because unless you form a team of 6 Pidgeot checks, you could
prepare for it and still get bodied by it by sheer luck
First of all, Aero isn't the best counter to Pidgeot, Empoleon is. Second, You can get boned by hax by anything, it isn't exclusive to Pidgeot. For example, Keldeo in OUs number one counter is Latias/Latios. You hardly see Keldeo click anything other than Scald until Lati is burned and then it can either go with some Sub CM shenanigans or just try to kill it with Secret Sword. Other examples would be something like Suicune spamming Scald until its normal checks are weakened. Next, in the scenario you described above it is entirely possible to "outplay the hax" that occurred. More often than not, by the time you need to check Pidgeot a second time you have something that has outlived its usefulness and you can get rid of it. Sack something so you don't have to risk Pidgeot being "bullshit" and then the Pursuit is risk free and Aerodactyl can continue being very good like it always is. If you leave yourself vulnerable to getting haxed then you can't complain. Furthermore, you also can certainly see Aero muscle past some of its normal counters like Suicune through the use of Hone Claws and dodging a Scald Burn. Your point about preparing in the "best possible way" is kind of silly as well since Aerodactyl is far from a sturdy check. That sort of preparation is similar to using Banded Tyrantrum to check Crocune. Sure if you can dodge the burn then good job, but a burn spells that you're up shit creek without a paddle. Also, your whole Hydrei isn't flinching past Florges is exactly the same thing with Empoleon and Pidgeot. There is no fucking way that Empo is getting broken by Pidgeot on its own. It does like 15-18% or something like that with Hurricane and Heat Wave does like 4% more. Counters exist for defensive teams and it's fairly simple to pressure it offensively.
Except this isn't Scald. Hurricane has a 110 base power matched by 135 base special attack. This is no accident. W/ No Guard, this turns the game skilless. Mega Pidgeot has traits that simply outshine the capacitites of lesser used UU mons (and hahaha they're lesser used due to Mega Pidgeot), and this severely limits the sheer viability of mons. Hell, every person can fit a Mega-Pidgeot on their team, and they'd be better for it. The diversity of being able to fit a flying type in this tier is insane, and EVERY team is boosted by this Pokemon's capability of controlling the rhythm of the match.
Isn't the reason Togekiss was banned is because of how batshit crazy it was in the hax department?
If that is the case Mega Pidgeot should join it in the barren wasteland that is BL. If I'm not mistaken Smogon wants to cut down on luck and reduce overcentralization, and Mega Pidgeot breaks both of those rules.
If that is the case Mega Pidgeot should join it in the barren wasteland that is BL. If I'm not mistaken Smogon wants to cut down on luck and reduce overcentralization, and Mega Pidgeot breaks both of those rules.
Togekiss was banned IN PART because it had a move that had double the hax that Pidgeot has. The rest was its incredible typing that let it wall almost all the best attackers UU had at the time while breaking walls with paraflinch. It was also by far the most versatile Pokemon 6th Gen UU has seen yet, capable of running Choiced sets, bulky pivots/walls, and set-up sweepers.
King UU, that is a gross exaggeration of Pidgeot's capabilities in UU. It is not Genesect, it does not fit every team archetype, and there are teams where other Megas are clearly more valuable.
King UU, that is a gross exaggeration of Pidgeot's capabilities in UU. It is not Genesect, it does not fit every team archetype, and there are teams where other Megas are clearly more valuable.
Togekiss and Pidgeot are completely different, as Togekiss had a setup move that pretty much invalidated slower teams due to the fact they could be paraflinched. Pidgeot's hax only happens 30% of the time, while in tandem with confusion hitting the opponent it only happens 15% of the time. I would say Pidgeot has centralization, but is it overcentralizing? I doubt that, since I'm not running some obscure unviable set / Pokemon just to deal with it, it has checks and counters that are good in the tier (Mega Aero, Empoleon, etc).
Togekiss is a completely different story and had a 60% chance to flinch, and combined with its godly typing and the fact that it could boost while it was bullshitting its way through the other team made it even more broken than Jirachi ever was and could turn games around in an instant by just being Togekiss. Mega Pidgeot is completely different because it only runs one set, doesn't get the chance to boost itself, and even if it gets that 30% chance it relies on a 50% chance past that for the opponent to hit itself- that's a 15% chance of taking away a turn for the opponent as opposed to a 60% chance. Not the mention Togekiss is bulkier, can run an item, and has a better typing and has decent coverage past just Hurricane and Heat Wave.
On the other hand, I have always had a hard time analyzing Pidgeot's affect on the metagame as whole (looking past inherent brokenness for a minute) because it's not the strongest mon in the tier, it's not the most versatile, and it doesn't have qualities that are simply better than any other pokemon in the tier. The sole reason that Pidgeot is so good and is considered one of the best (if not the best) pokemon in the metagame is because it has access to the one move that all of its sets are based around, 100% accurate Hurricane. Hurricane's design is based around a move that is absurdly strong with a 30% chance to confuse the opponent (probably the worst status effect that's not Freeze) but that only hits 70% of the time, the same accuracy as Focus Blast, which means the pokemon that use it oftentimes find themselves missing more than they do reaping the rewards of obtaining such a strong STAB. The difficulty in assessing Pidgeot lies in the fact that it destroys the drawbacks of using the move- there is no drawback from clicking Hurricane because it never misses, is only resisted by 3 types in the game, all of which are relatively rare in UU; there are only four Electric-types in the tier, two of which are 2HKO'd by Hurricane after Rocks, 1 of which is worn down easily with no reliable recovery and is weak to rocks and the other which is also worn down really easily. There are only 2 rock types in the tier and one of them is regular Aggron, and Empoleon is the only steel really capable of checking Pidgeot since everything else at least has a chance of being 2HKO'd by Heat Wave after rocks. I've always believed flying was a godlike offensive typing because its resists are so few and far between, so much so that after Jirachi moved up most UU teams didn't feel the need to pack a resist, because the only Flying-type worth noting was Mega Aerodactyl which could easily be checked by Swampert or Suicune. I think there's not as much of a centralizing factor in Pidgeot as there is an inherent brokenness in no guard Hurricane, because not only do you get a free chance to fire off a 110 BP STAB move backed by 135 SpA but you are also rewarded nearly 1/3 of the time by getting a confusion, and then the game turns into a series of 50/50s as to whether or not you get a free turn. If you take one thing away from this paragraph, take this statement as to why Pidgeot is inherently broken: It doesn't matter whether or not Pidgeot has counters, because even if you Hurricane into a Empoleon you lose nothing and have a 1/3 chance to confuse the Empoleon and then have a chance to render it useless for turns at a time. All of its answers aren't planning on sweeping any teams any time soon (part of the reason why I voted no ban for Victini) because unlike V-Create there is no problem with clicking Hurricane. If you Hurricane into a Rotom-H, so what? Pidgeot simply switches out and Rotom probably clicks Volt Switch, getting the opponent momentum- it's not going to sweep you anytime soon, and even if it forces a sack by getting a free switch into a wallbreaker that's not going to lose you the game, like giving Feraligatr free Dragon Dances. There is literally no reason not to click Hurricane with Pidgeot and the fact that you have a chance to confuse the hurricane on top of it is what sets it over the edge.
Also, while I agree with some of King UU's posts up above, I have to say that the opportunity cost of not using Pidgeot is not as absurd as you stated above; sure, Pidgeot is strong, but it's not the strongest pokemon in the tier. Your points are all true but they are somewhat exaggerated (very exaggerated, actually). Mega Pidgeot, Mega Aerodactyl, Mega Beedrill, and Mega Blastoise are four megas that I would almost always use over any other megas, because they're simply a cut above everything else. Mega Pidgeot isn't so good that I would never use Mega Blastoise, Mega Aero, or Mega Beedrill, and I wouldn't not use Feraligatr because I want to use Mega Pidgeot. It's good, but it's not so good that it invalidates usage of other pokemon- that's taking it a bit too far.
Dad's Dad
Banned deucer.
Don't wanna be that guy but :/
252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Empoleon: 66-78 (17.7 - 21%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery
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