Pokémon Heliolisk

[Zazazaki]

Another cool thing that some may have not noticed at first is that, due to bein a normal type, he also avoids Aegislash's shadow sneak spam. Sacred sword will kill him, of course, but it's still somethin worth notin (as it does have access to Dark Pulse, too).

 

[Nykheros]

Heliolisk being probably one of the best ghost counters, i would actually say ghost is actually getting a little nerf bc of all these dual normals. If ghosts become quite a problem especially gengar, aegislash, sets that try to cripple might be worthwhile. I know i would definately counter moves such as glare/Thunder wave, and eerie sence to be great and hard to counter, only wish he had more support utility moves since he lacks calm mind

 

[Zazazaki]

Let's not go as far as to say that Ghosts were nerfed, because they didn't. Ghost now hits Steels neutrally, which is huge. Also, correct me if I am mistaken, but I think Glare affects ghosts. That bein said, bein immune to Shadow ball & Shadow sneak is useful, BUT, Gengar does outspeed Heliolisk & may pack Focus Miss.

 

[Mr. Degradation]

I think support Lisk is the way to go. Spreading paralysis and picking up a little Weather and coverage duty can push a team of bruisers and walls further ahead than rain staller #X.

"Buddy Lisk"
Dry Skin
Timid @ Damp Rock
180 HP, 78 SATK, 252 SPD (Assuming Serebii's base stats are accurate.)
- Glare/Thunder Wave
- Volt Switch
- Grass Knot/Focus Blast/Dark Pulse
- Rain Dance

 

[gullah]

How about options for the rain dance set up/potential team mates? I don't think having Heliolisk setting up rain dance himself is wise.

 

[Fundance]

Ok so Heliolisk gets Electric Terrain after all. The egg chain goes like - Manectric/Luxray > mareep > helioptile.

Thoughts on this? electric terrain is -literally- the only other boosting move it gets other than Charge. It messes up rest talk strategies and spore users and it amps up your electric damage by a solid 1.5 for 5 turns.

I actually feel like it benefits Heliolisk more than a self-buff because Heliolisk uses Volt Switch so often. One Electric Terrain may allow you to get two Volt Switches in without having to boost up each time. I'm unsure if Heliolisk is the one who wants to set the move up himself though, since he needs Glare in that precious utility slot.

 

[LittleTLK]

Ok so Heliolisk gets Electric Terrain after all. The egg chain goes like - Manectric/Luxray > mareep > helioptile.

Thoughts on this? electric terrain is -literally- the only other boosting move it gets other than Charge. It messes up rest talk strategies and spore users and it amps up your electric damage by a solid 1.5 for 5 turns.

I actually feel like it benefits Heliolisk more than a self-buff because Heliolisk uses Volt Switch so often. One Electric Terrain may allow you to get two Volt Switches in without having to boost up each time. I'm unsure if Heliolisk is the one who wants to set the move up himself though, since he needs Glare in that precious utility slot.

I've been told terrain stacks with weather. If you had a partner like Klefki set up rain for you and perhaps reflect, heliolisk could really wreck shit up with thunder after that electric terrain.

 

[Fundance]

Yeah, for a grand total of 3 turns while terrain is still up. Unfortunate, but at least other electric types could enjoy the benefits too. Mega Manectric perhaps?

 

[LittleTLK]

Yeah, for a grand total of 3 turns while terrain is still up. Unfortunate, but at least other electric types could enjoy the benefits too. Mega Manectric perhaps?

Hmmm. Only 3 turns?
Perhaps they'll release items in the future like damp rock, ect, that boost terrain duration.
Still, though, Heliolisk is a solid pokemon, especially with rain up.

 

[Fundance]

Well yeah, because you spend a turn setting it up, then you have to waste another turn switching Heliolisk in. That leaves only 3 more turns to sweep.

 

[ness64]

Helioisk seems like a threat. With the ability to abuse three weather conditions (even though Sand Veil might be banned again), a movepool that contains gems like Surf, Thunder, Thunder Bolt, Volt Switch, Focus Miss and Dark Pulse, and decent Sp.Attack and Speed stats will make it UU, IMO.

 

[Fundance]

UU with OU niche imo. It's a nice check to bellydrum Azumarill (though you could say that Toxicroak does it too, I think Heliolisk hits harder with STABS) and it also has the benefit of being able to switch into Jellicent and be immune to both its stabs. Takes chunks out of Skarmory with Volt Switch and hits gliscor super effectively with Surf. Doesn't fear Aegislash's Shadow Sneak hubris and so on so forth. Glare is currently the best paralysis move in the game and he gets it, and this is especially useful when you consider he outspeeds all pseudolegendary dragons before a boost.

Downsides? It gets wrecked by priority and can't handle walls and faster Pokemon. Most likely needs a choice item to function well. It also cannot boost in a meaningful way (although personally I think Charge is kind of underrated on Heliolisk, it has the special defense to make use of it and uses volt switch anyway, losing the buffs it'd accumulate through something like Nasty Plot).

 

[SomeDrunkRockLee]

Not sure if it's been mentioned yet, but it faces serious competition from Gavantula, who possesses arguably better coverage, better dual-STAB, and Stick Web at the cost of those abilities, 1 point of speed, and a small amount of special attack, while also gaining fairly accurate (91%, if I remember correctly) thunder. I think he's really only going to be able to function in weather, which will be hard with the perma-nerf. Fortunately, alongside mega-charizard Y he should see some use from solar power and some coverage options.

I'd like to try HP Fire in sun, since he really lacks anything to hit ferrothorn and most other bulky steels otherwise. He'll probably be best used for solar power scarf/specs in the sun.

UU with OU niche imo. It's a nice check to bellydrum Azumarill (though you could say that Toxicroak does it too, I think Heliolisk hits harder with STABS) and it also has the benefit of being able to switch into Jellicent and be immune to both its stabs. Takes chunks out of Skarmory with Volt Switch and hits gliscor super effectively with Surf. Doesn't fear Aegislash's Shadow Sneak hubris and so on so forth. Glare is currently the best paralysis move in the game and he gets it, and this is especially useful when you consider he outspeeds all pseudolegendary dragons before a boost.

Downsides? It gets wrecked by priority and can't handle walls and faster Pokemon. Most likely needs a choice item to function well. It also cannot boost in a meaningful way (although personally I think Charge is kind of underrated on Heliolisk, it has the special defense to make use of it and uses volt switch anyway, losing the buffs it'd accumulate through something like Nasty Plot).

Toxicroak has the ability to hit Azumarill just as hard with something like Poison Jab...

 

[ryan]

dunno, I don't really see Heliolisk being very OU viable. It has good Speed, but modest attacking stats, backed up by pretty mediocre bulk. On top of that, all three of its abilities are weather-dependent, making it even more difficult to run effectively without permanent weather backing it up. It might have a tiny niche with its Water immunity and good Speed, but even then, I'd rather run something that just resists Water and has good Speed, such as Latios, Latias, or perhaps even Keldeo. I'm sure it's not an awful Pokemon and will probably land somewhere above NU, but as for OU viable, I'm not so sure.

 

[Vivillon]

Why was my comment deleted? I have an actual question on Heliolisk!

What are some Pokémon that work well with Heliolisk? No legendaries, please. (DON'T DELETE)

 

[SergantGold]

I've tried Solar Power Choice Specs Helioisk on a dual setter sun team (having both ninetails and Mega Char Y to keep the weather going) and it is my absolute go-to clean up sweeper. It has just high enough bulk in a lot of situations to survive a powerful hit and OHKO back with stabbed thunderbolt. With me it can usually get ~3 KOs after I get rid of stuff it can't get/enough stuff so it won't solar power itself to death before it finishes it's sweep. I also tried it on a rain team with Dry Skin but it didn't quite do as much on there, but it was still pretty solid.
It's also funny to Dark Pulse Jolteons that think they can switch in.

 

[Alopex]

Well yeah, because you spend a turn setting it up, then you have to waste another turn switching Heliolisk in. That leaves only 3 more turns to sweep.

A slight bit more than that, because if you're running a weather setter, they are going to have the weather extending item. So 8 turns of weather.

Turn 1 - Weather set
Turn 2 - Switch
Turn 3 - Set Terrain
That now leaves you with 5 turns of weather and 4 turns of terrain left to use. Not bad, but it won't sweep a team, and is a lot of turns to set up a strategy that can be ruined by any weather setter - in fact, it's a lot of turns not doing ANY damage at all... which means your opponent has had a lot of time to set up something likely far worse than Disk...

But hey, if it all works out, with VoltSwitch, you don't necessarily rely on that sweep to keep momentum. Do enough damage, VoltSwitch at the right time, and the pendulum is definitely swinging in your favor. Just hope you never see a Golurk...

 

[SergantGold]

A slight bit more than that, because if you're running a weather setter, they are going to have the weather extending item. So 8 turns of weather.

Turn 1 - Weather set
Turn 2 - Switch
Turn 3 - Set Terrain
That now leaves you with 5 turns of weather and 4 turns of terrain left to use. Not bad, but it won't sweep a team, and is a lot of turns to set up a strategy that can be ruined by any weather setter - in fact, it's a lot of turns not doing ANY damage at all... which means your opponent has had a lot of time to set up something likely far worse than Disk...

But hey, if it all works out, with VoltSwitch, you don't necessarily rely on that sweep to keep momentum. Do enough damage, VoltSwitch at the right time, and the pendulum is definitely swinging in your favor. Just hope you never see a Golurk...

It seems like that takes an awfully long time to set up to achieve a small boost in power. If you are going to use a sun Helioisk you might as well stick specs on it give it solar power and call it a day with that set up

 

[Fundance]

dunno, I don't really see Heliolisk being very OU viable. It has good Speed, but modest attacking stats, backed up by pretty mediocre bulk. On top of that, all three of its abilities are weather-dependent, making it even more difficult to run effectively without permanent weather backing it up. It might have a tiny niche with its Water immunity and good Speed, but even then, I'd rather run something that just resists Water and has good Speed, such as Latios, Latias, or perhaps even Keldeo. I'm sure it's not an awful Pokemon and will probably land somewhere above NU, but as for OU viable, I'm not so sure.

I wouldn't say Dry Skin is weather dependant. Heliolisk doesn't really care for the HP regen granted by Dry Skin in the rain. It likes that ability for the water immunity, which it uses effectively.

Toxicroak has the ability to hit Azumarill just as hard with something like Poison Jab...

Pretty sure Heliolisk hits harder with rain thunder or even thunderbolt. It also has the option of Volt Switching to safety just in case it doesn't OKO for whatever reason, which Toxicroak doesn't.

As for having competition from Galvantula, it undoubtedly will, but Galvantula doesn't have a ghost and potential water immunity. Galvantula can't check belly drum Azumarill, that's for sure.

 

[Guggerbunk]

Damage calculations of Heliolisk versus Azumarill (and vice versa):

Heliolisk attacking Azumarill

Heliolisk @ Leftovers (timid, 4HP / 252SpA / 252Spe) versus Azumarill @ Life Orb / Choice Band / MysticWater (252HP / 252Atk / 4Spe)
252 SpA (custom) Volt Switch vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 246-290 (60.89 - 71.78%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA (custom) Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 314-372 (77.72 - 92.07%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (31.25% OHKO /w SR)
252 SpA (custom) Thunder vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 384-452 (95.04 - 111.88%) -- 68.75% chance to OHKO (guaranteed /w SR)

Heliolisk @ Expert Belt (timid, 4HP / 252SpA / 252Spe) versus Azumarill @ Life Orb / Choice Band / MysticWater (252HP / 252Atk / 4Spe)
252 SpA Expert Belt (custom) Volt Switch vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 295-348 (73.01 - 86.13%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Expert Belt (custom) Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 377-446 (93.31 - 110.39%) -- 56.25% chance to OHKO (guaranteed /w SR)
252 SpA Expert Belt (custom) Thunder vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 461-542 (114.1 - 134.15%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Heliolisk @ Life Orb (timid, 4HP / 252SpA / 252Spe) versus Azumarill @ Life Orb / Choice Band / MysticWater (252HP / 252Atk / 4Spe)
252 SpA Life Orb (custom) Volt Switch vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 320-377 (79.2 - 93.31%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (43.75% OHKO /w SR)
252 SpA Life Orb (custom) Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 408-484 (100.99 - 119.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb (custom) Thunder vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 499-588 (123.51 - 145.54%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Heliolisk @ Choice Specs (timid, 4HP / 252SpA / 252Spe) versus Azumarill @ Life Orb / Choice Band / MysticWater (252HP / 252Atk / 4Spe)
252 SpA Choice Specs (custom) Volt Switch vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 366-432 (90.59 - 106.93%) -- 43.75% chance to OHKO (guaranteed /w SR)
252 SpA Choice Specs (custom) Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 470-554 (116.33 - 137.12%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs (custom) Thunder vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 572-674 (141.58 - 166.83%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Azumarill attacking Heliolisk

Azumarill @ MysticWater (adamant, 252HP / 252Atk / 4Spe) versus Heliolisk (timid, 4HP / 252SpA / 252Spe)
252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Ice Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def (custom): 168-198 (63.15 - 74.43%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Azumarill @ Life Orb (adamant, 252HP / 252Atk / 4Spe) versus Heliolisk (timid, 4HP / 252SpA / 252Spe)
252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Azumarill Ice Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def (custom): 218-257 (81.95 - 96.61%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Azumarill @ Choice Band (adamant, 252HP / 252Atk / 4Spe) versus Heliolisk (timid, 4HP / 252SpA / 252Spe)
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Ice Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def (custom): 251-296 (94.36 - 111.27%) -- 68.75% chance to OHKO

In all cases Superpower and Play Rough murders Heliolisk. Heliolisk can survive guessing wrong and switching in on a MysticWater or Life Orb Ice Punch from +0 Azumarill but might be OHKO'ed by a CB Azu. Heliolisk needs 128HP EVs to guarantee survival (ignoring hazards and crits) against a CB Ice Punch.

The problem with Heliolisk as an Azumarill counter is that while he walls it if he gets in on a Waterfall or Aqua Jet and can threaten either a chunk of damage or a OHKO depending on the set he will get absolutely savaged by Play Rough and Superpower, the latter being on just about every set that I've seen, and since nothing short of Heatran resists Fairy 4x he can attack with it on an assumed switch of something that fears Aqua Jet. The only thing it can safely come in on is a Choice locked Azumarill using Waterfall or Aqua Jet.

I love the thunder lizard but it's awfully risky to come in on anything but a choice lock.

 

[Fundance]

Well, an Azumarill that just got off a belly drum doesn't want to risk using non-priority moves for the most part. The reason I say 'check' rather than counter is because Heliolisk (and Toxicroak) both are able to get in there and force Azumarill to switch and lose its belly drum buff.

Those calcs are nice though. It looks like running Scarf is out of the question, which is nice to know at least. Life orb or Specs seems like the best option.

 

[gsumbreon]

I've been running it as a scarf revenge-killer, and it does its job alright. His stats are just BARELY too low to be amazing, but he's niche, which is fun. He's been serving as a good check to Aigislash, which makes him worth something. If he only had a little more sp att.....

 

[Fundance]

So he checks and can semi-safely switch in on two major threat OU priority spammers and a good deal of supporty water types, as well as function as a scouter/lategame sweeper...if that isn't a half decent niche I don't know what is.

Sadly, due to his frustratingly trollish movepool there's not a whole lot to talk about anymore beyond this so...partners?

I find that running him with a ghost type is absolutely imperative for handling those incoming mach punches and extremespeeds. He also, amusingly, loves Sticky Web support because of his speed tier making him outrun just about everything after a single stage drop. But you're not going to use him and Galvantula on the same team.

Gliscor enjoys all the free switch-ins it gets against mach punch and fighting moves I'd think.

Baton pass support seems wasted on this guy IMO. He'd need both speed and special attack to sweep and is stopped dead by priority. Wish support and hazard clear, absolutely since he'll be switching around so much due to volt switch. Another reason why defog Gliscor and Crobat are great partners.

Crobat can also switch in on those pesky ground types and earthquakers who are trying to block Volt Switch. In fact, Crobat resists or ignores both super effective types that could possibly be aimed at Heliolisk.

 

[SergantGold]

So he checks and can semi-safely switch in on two major threat OU priority spammers and a good deal of supporty water types, as well as function as a scouter/lategame sweeper...if that isn't a half decent niche I don't know what is.

Sadly, due to his frustratingly trollish movepool there's not a whole lot to talk about anymore beyond this so...partners?

I find that running him with a ghost type is absolutely imperative for handling those incoming mach punches and extremespeeds. He also, amusingly, loves Sticky Web support because of his speed tier making him outrun just about everything after a single stage drop. But you're not going to use him and Galvantula on the same team.

Gliscor enjoys all the free switch-ins it gets against mach punch and fighting moves I'd think.

Baton pass support seems wasted on this guy IMO. He'd need both speed and special attack to sweep and is stopped dead by priority. Wish support and hazard clear, absolutely since he'll be switching around so much due to volt switch. Another reason why defog Gliscor and Crobat are great partners.

Crobat can also switch in on those pesky ground types and earthquakers who are trying to block Volt Switch. In fact, Crobat resists or ignores both super effective types that could possibly be aimed at Heliolisk.

You also could use him as a solar power specs sweeper with sun support. Dark Pulse/Thunderbolt/Focus Blast/Surf hits most things I see neutral or better, which with the boosts is usually enough to snag OHKOs.

 

[Fundance]

I wouldn't want to get too attached to solar power Heliolisk though. The way things are currently going, Sun teams are going to be at an all time low and a lot more trouble than they're worth. But that boost in power is hard to pass up. In doubles though? It's a different story.

Then again, being an electric type, Heliolisk hits a lot of possible defoggers really hard, so hmm.