Pokémon Gyarados (Revamp)

[North Gate]

Assault Vest is bad, (on gyarados) plain and simple. With Moxie you lose out on the Intimidate to at least give you some life. You claim that it can late game sweep, yeah, maybe when everything is at 10%. It's slow, doesn't go good against Stall, still gets forced out by electrics. To top it off, it doesn't get any physical bulk from Intimidate and why would you capitalize on Gyara's semi decent special bulk instead of going for Attack? ?_? AV Conk still invests into Attack! With such low punch force, a late game sweep will almost never happen and since a lot of the metagame is outspeeding you how can you accumulate boosts? Moxie is a cool ability on Offensive Dragon Dance sets, but seriously.

Friendly reminder that slapping AV on a mon calling it a special wall and calling it a day isn't exactly great, even worse when you say it's a sweeper.

 

[MaestroDeSWAG]

I do have to admit that anything with AV really appreciates the support of WishPassers like Blissey, but it is still effective.

Additionally, that is Gyarados's power for AV: He can still get boosts. He can be a sweeper still since he can boost his attack via moxie ability.

Special gyarados is a complete gimmick. Literally, the worst thing that isn't special conk. Yeah, I'm surprised this ever came up. Ever.

 

[Blackdrakon30]

I know. I never use special Gyarados, and actually the worst thing I saw com up was a special avalugg

 

[Karxrida]

I know. I never use special Gyarados, and actually the worst thing I saw com up was a special avalugg

Then why would you bring up a Special Gyarados set?!?

 

[North Gate]

What's the point of talking about this anymore? Special Gyarados is bad and this thread is focused on Gyarados. We're meant to talk about it, not the worst special shit we've seen. (Not meant to minimod if that's what you think, mods can delete this if they want, as a side note I'll probably repost the bottom portion of my post.)

Onto my next topic, is Aqua Tail even worth mentioning? Sometimes it misses and it doesn't score and relevant OHKOs or 2HKOs over Waterfall. plus that dank flinch. I'd rather just use Waterfall in every case tbh. Also I'm on board with mentioning Return/Frustration, and Double Edge. Cuz coverage and what not. I'd even be on board with mentioning Facade for those annoying Rotom-Ws, but that's extremely situational.

 

[boltsandbombers]

What's the point of talking about this anymore? Special Gyarados is bad and this thread is focused on Gyarados. We're meant to talk about it, not the worst special shit we've seen. (Not meant to minimod if that's what you think, mods can delete this if they want, as a side note I'll probably repost the bottom portion of my post.)

Onto my next topic, is Aqua Tail even worth mentioning? Sometimes it misses and it doesn't score and relevant OHKOs or 2HKOs over Waterfall. plus that dank flinch. I'd rather just use Waterfall in every case tbh. Also I'm on board with mentioning Return/Frustration, and Double Edge. Cuz coverage and what not. I'd even be on board with mentioning Facade for those annoying Rotom-Ws, but that's extremely situational.

I don't think Aqua tail has any value, as the lower accuracy and lack of flinch chance don't really surpass the slightly greater power. Feel free to prove me wrong with a calc that shows a particular OHKO or 2HKO that it has over waterfall. Also, what's the point of facade or double edge? Cuz coverage isn't a great point, and hitting Rotom-w doesn't make sense because EQ already does that.

 

[MaestroDeSWAG]

I don't think Aqua tail has any value, as the lower accuracy and lack of flinch chance don't really surpass the slightly greater power. Feel free to prove me wrong with a calc that shows a particular OHKO or 2HKO that it has over waterfall. Also, what's the point of facade or double edge? Cuz coverage isn't a great point, and hitting Rotom-w doesn't make sense because EQ already does that.

Earthquake only hits coming from mega gyara.

 

[North Gate]

I don't think Aqua tail has any value, as the lower accuracy and lack of flinch chance don't really surpass the slightly greater power. Feel free to prove me wrong with a calc that shows a particular OHKO or 2HKO that it has over waterfall. Also, what's the point of facade or double edge? Cuz coverage isn't a great point, and hitting Rotom-w doesn't make sense because EQ already does that.

The only nitpick I have is that Double-Edge/Return don't only hit Rotom-W, they hit stuff like Mega Altaria, Azumarill, and stuff neutrally and as stated in a post on page one Water/Dark/Normal is pretty much unresisted coverage. It has some use on Regular Gyara, but most are bulky with DD Sub and 2 attacks so yeah.

 

[Waluigi The Anime]

In my opinion, Natural Gift should be added to the notable moves list as it allows Gyarados to muscle through some of the pokemon that would regard themselves as checks or counters. I will be going through the possible berries that Gyarados could use. (Please note that all of these calcs will have Dragon Dance on them, so the scenario will usually be Gyarados forcing something out to get a dragon dance, then hitting hard with natural gift.)

Lum Berry/Lansat Berry give Gyarados a (somewhat) reliable flying STAB move, allowing it to deal large amounts of damage to grass type switch-ins expecting waterfall. While Lansat Berry gives Natural Gift 100 BP (as well as being a pinch berry, boosting Gyarados' crit chance, which may help sometimes), Lum Berry, at a respectable 80 BP, also has the use of blocking status, which is extremely useful (though you do miss some of the OHKO's Lansat Berry gets). The reason to use this over Bounce is because Bounce is extremely predictable, with the opponent simply switching out to a better check/counter.

Hide

Relevant Calcs
Lansat Berry
+1 252+ Atk Lansat Berry Gyarados Natural Gift (100 BP Flying) vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Mega Venusaur: 330-390 (90.6 - 107.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Lansat Berry Gyarados Natural Gift (100 BP Flying) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 320-380 (79.2 - 94%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Lansat Berry Gyarados Natural Gift (100 BP Flying) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 652-772 (171.5 - 203.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Lansat Berry Gyarados Natural Gift (100 BP Flying) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Poliwrath: 390-462 (101.5 - 120.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO (I'm including this one because Poliwrath usually shits on all of Gyarados' sets)

Lum Berry
+1 252+ Atk Lum Berry Gyarados Natural Gift (80 BP Flying) vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Mega Venusaur: 264-312 (72.5 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Lum Berry Gyarados Natural Gift (80 BP Flying) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 258-306 (63.8 - 75.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Lum Berry Gyarados Natural Gift (80 BP Flying) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 528-624 (138.9 - 164.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Lum Berry Gyarados Natural Gift (80 BP Flying) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Poliwrath: 312-368 (81.2 - 95.8%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock [hide/]

Watmel Berry/Cheri Berry gives Gyarados a physical fire type move to smack steel type switch-ins, such as Ferrothorn, while also hitting multiple grass type switch-ins as well. The main reason to use this over Lansat/Lum Berry is because it hits steel types that could potentially stop/phaze Gyarados. Watmel Berry doesn't have an added effect, but has a 100 BP. Cheri Berry, on the other hand, can prevent paralysis, which can come in handy in some situations.

Hide

Relevant Calcs
Watmel Berry
+1 252+ Atk Watmel Berry Gyarados Natural Gift (100 BP Fire) vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 468-552 (132.9 - 156.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Watmel Berry Gyarados Natural Gift (100 BP Fire) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 198-234 (59.2 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (if it doesn't phaze you out, you can finish it with Waterfall)
+1 252+ Atk Watmel Berry Gyarados Natural Gift (100 BP Fire) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 214-254 (52.9 - 62.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Watmel Berry Gyarados Natural Gift (100 BP Fire) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 218-258 (57.3 - 67.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Watmel Berry Gyarados Natural Gift (100 BP Fire) vs. 172 HP / 0 Def Magnezone: 310-366 (95.6 - 112.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Showdown Calculator doesn't have Cheri Berry :/

 

[ajnauron]

Don't really have time to expand, but Natural Gift should be lisited in the moves lists. I'll explain later when I have the chance.

For Ferrothorn?

+1 252+ Atk Salac Berry Gyarados Natural Gift (100 BP Fighting) vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 234-276 (66.4 - 78.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

OK, I guess, but you'd have to hit him on the switch in, you can only use it once, and if you switch in on Knock Off you've just wasted a moveslot.

 

[Random Passerby]

For Ferrothorn?

+1 252+ Atk Salac Berry Gyarados Natural Gift (100 BP Fighting) vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 234-276 (66.4 - 78.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

OK, I guess, but you'd have to hit him on the switch in, you can only use it once, and if you switch in on Knock Off you've just wasted a moveslot.

You use a Fire-type Natural Gift Berry for Ferro and Skarmory, which obviously OHKOes Ferro at +1 and deal huge damage to Skarm. Also, Ferro rarely carries Knock Off

 

[MaestroDeSWAG]

You use a Fire-type Natural Gift Berry for Ferro and Skarmory, which obviously OHKOes Ferro at +1 and deal huge damage to Skarm. Also, Ferro rarely carries Knock Off

Actually, I believe that exact set was on the ORAS lures thread. Was it Cheri berry? I think it was, but I can't remember. It gives those perks listed, as well as the paralysis healing, for a second chance to sweep after they "end" it w/ thundy or something. Yeah, kinda a cool option.

 

[Blackdrakon30]

In my opinion, Natural Gift should be added to the notable moves list as it allows Gyarados to muscle through some of the pokemon that would regard themselves as checks or counters. I will be going through the possible berries that Gyarados could use. (Please note that all of these calcs will have Dragon Dance on them, so the scenario will usually be Gyarados forcing something out to get a dragon dance, then hitting hard with natural gift.)

I have to say I like the idea of Natural Gift Gyarados. I did not realize he learned that, and that could definitely be a useful move for him.

Hey, what about Payback and Outrage? I know Gyarados is not the fastest poke on the block until he gets a dragon dance, but with payback he might be able to hit faster pokemon harder than with crunch since it would change to have 100 base power. And shouldn't Outrage be counted in? I realize it is not STAB and can be difficult, but in combination with Moxie you are very likely to get at least one KO and get the attack boost.

 

[doughboy]

Hey, what about Payback and Outrage? I know Gyarados is not the fastest poke on the block until he gets a dragon dance, but with payback he might be able to hit faster pokemon harder than with crunch since it would change to have 100 base power. And shouldn't Outrage be counted in? I realize it is not STAB and can be difficult, but in combination with Moxie you are very likely to get at least one KO and get the attack boost.

Payback is a lot worse than Crunch. Consider that Payback is only an increase of 20+ base power against faster targets while against slower targets you lose -30 base power. Crunch is also Gyarados' most powerful move against Ferrothorn, one of its best and most popular counters. Lastly Payback doesn't do double damage on the switch, so you have to assume that your opponent is faster and isn't switching to get payback's full power. Obviously that isn't very consistent.

Outrage was used in the past to break past Rotom-W in Gen 5. You could also have used double edge. Double edge is just as powerful but doesn, give you extra coverage vs Dragons. The thing is though Mold Breaker Earthquake and Crunch pretty much cover everything that Outrage did before (Rotom-W and Lati@s) so there really isn't any point to us I g it either.

 

[Blackdrakon30]

Payback is a lot worse than Crunch. Consider that Payback is only an increase of 20+ base power against faster targets while against slower targets you lose -30 base power. Crunch is also Gyarados' most powerful move against Ferrothorn, one of its best and most popular counters. Lastly Payback doesn't do double damage on the switch, so you have to assume that your opponent is faster and isn't switching to get payback's full power. Obviously that isn't very consistent.

Outrage was used in the past to break past Rotom-W in Gen 5. You could also have used double edge. Double edge is just as powerful but doesn, give you extra coverage vs Dragons. The thing is though Mold Breaker Earthquake and Crunch pretty much cover everything that Outrage did before (Rotom-W and Lati@s) so there really isn't any point to us I g it either.

I did my research. Payback, according to Bulbapedia, "Payback inflicts damage. Its power doubles to 100 if the user moves after the target, if the target switches out, or if the opponent uses an item." This makes it so that the only time it would be less powerful is if they were slower and used a support move or stat boosting move. Outrage is useful, but you are definitely right that MoldBreaker earthquake covers most of it, but it can still be useful.

 

[doughboy]

I did my research. Payback, according to Bulbapedia, "Payback inflicts damage. Its power doubles to 100 if the user moves after the target, if the target switches out, or if the opponent uses an item." This makes it so that the only time it would be less powerful is if they were slower and used a support move or stat boosting move. Outrage is useful, but you are definitely right that MoldBreaker earthquake covers most of it, but it can still be useful.

Payback doubled damage on switches in Gen 4. In Generation 5 Payback was changed so it no longer did that, read the bulbapedia article more closely.

Think about it this way, when will you be using that extra power? What does that extra 20 base power that Payback have break that Crunch couldn't to make it worth handicapping Gyarados? You certainly would not be able to use the extra power on the Dragon Dance set (aka Gyarados' best set) because Dragon Dance means you will outspeed most targets. You won't be able to use that extra power against the bulkier Grass and Steel-types that wall Gyarados because they will always be slower. In fact you will be weaker. Even if you were facing a target that Payback would hit hard, your opponent can just switch out and minimize its damage. By using Payback you are just gimping the Dragon Dance and any other set that is reliant on Crunch to break through slower, bulkier walls and even offensive pokemon if you choose to boost with Dragon Dance.

 

[Karxrida]

Payback is counterproductive on a Speed-boosting sweeper while Outrage's targets are hit just as hard (or harder) by STAB Crunch or Ice Fang/Earthquake. Both are pretty bad.

 

[Jaroda]

I don't think Aqua tail has any value, as the lower accuracy and lack of flinch chance don't really surpass the slightly greater power. Feel free to prove me wrong with a calc that shows a particular OHKO or 2HKO that it has over waterfall. Also, what's the point of facade or double edge? Cuz coverage isn't a great point, and hitting Rotom-w doesn't make sense because EQ already does that.

Well the biggest example would be Chesnaught, but looking at the calcs against fully defensive Chesnaught, +2 Double-Edge does at most 57%, and only one turn of Spiky Shield or Drain Punch makes that a 3HKO, so Chesnaught is only handled if you DON'T megavolve, or you have Bounce (which is a free Spiky Shield).

Regardless, Normal grants you virtually all the neutral coverage EQ gets you, in addition to dual Grass types like Chesnaught, Breloom, and the rare Whimsicott I guess. However, Chesnaught is too bulky, and Breloom and Whimsicott have priority to fuck you over, so it's sort of a moot point really.

 

[Seth Vilo]

So I'm curious on this: does anyone out there have creative spreads for the Bulky SubDD Gyarados? The analysis that's being run through QC right now has the old spread of 88 HP / 220 Atk / 4 Def / 196 Spe Jolly. That spread was designed a long time ago to avoid a Sub breaking to a burned Ferrothorn's Power Whip, as well as outrunning Mega Manectric/Lopunny at +1, as well as hitting a Leftovers number (which, as reminder, is [a number divisible by 16] + 1. This is especially important on a SR-weak mon like regular Gyara). As the analysis says, there is likely a better, more updated spread.

The one I've been using recently is 152 HP / 160 Atk / 196 Spe Jolly. This hits the next highest Leftovers number above the 88 HP spread, while also still outrunning the same Mega Lop/Man. It focuses more on bulk, and still has plenty of power as you boost. Conveniently, it also just avoids the Sub breaking to a non-boosted Mega Sableye's Shadow Ball (20.5 - 24.3%). That being said, the Shadow Ball threshold is also reached at 112 HP, but I was just generally focusing on more bulk.

What other spreads of people been running on SubDD (non-Mega) Gyara?

 

[North Gate]

Asking about Aqua tails worth?

+1 192+ Atk Gyarados Aqua Tail vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus: 300-354 (100.3 - 118.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Opposed to waterfall...
+1 192+ Atk Gyarados Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus: 267-315 (89.2 - 105.3%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

Aqua tail should be mentioned somewhere. Otherwise Thundurus OHKO's you unless your behind a substitute. Not much but its something. Here are some other calculations worth mentioning:
+1 192+ Atk Gyarados Aqua Tail vs. 132 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-T: 271-321 (81.6 - 96.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 192+ Atk Gyarados Waterfall vs. 132 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-T: 241-285 (72.5 - 85.8%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 192+ Atk Gyarados Aqua Tail vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Raikou: 286-337 (89 - 104.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 192+ Atk Gyarados Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Raikou: 255-300 (79.4 - 93.4%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 192+ Atk Gyarados Aqua Tail vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Charizard Y in Sun: 272-324 (91.5 -
109%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
+1 192+ Atk Gyarados Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Charizard Y in Sun: 242-288 (81.4 - 96.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 192+ Atk Gyarados Aqua Tail vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Lopunny: 237-279 (87.4 - 102.9%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 192+ Atk Gyarados Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Lopunny: 211-249 (77.8 - 91.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
I know you've got bounce, but if Lopunny subs you could be in danger.
+1 192+ Atk Gyarados Aqua Tail vs. 248 HP / 0+ Def Mega Scizor: 153-181 (44.6 - 52.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 192+ Atk Gyarados Waterfall vs. 248 HP / 0+ Def Mega Scizor: 136-162 (39.6 - 47.2%) -- 41% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 192+ Atk Gyarados Aqua Tail vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Tyranitar: 318-374 (93.2 - 109.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 192+ Atk Gyarados Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Tyranitar: 282-332 (82.6 - 97.3%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 192+ Atk Gyarados Aqua Tail vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Sylveon: 321-378 (81.8 - 96.4%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 192+ Atk Gyarados Waterfall vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Sylveon: 285-336 (72.7 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Ehhh, considering by late game that all those checks and counters should be weakened or dead, I think Aqua Tail shouldn't be mentioned as a move because honestly sometimes the clutch miss sucks and plus especially on Thundurus if Rocks are up that chance to OHKO turns into a guranteed OHKO. The reason why I personally want Aqua Tail gone is that opponents can clutch the game with a surprise miss on your end and at late game the power is really not needed because everything that it OHKOs or 2HKOs either have a big chance to get OHKOed after rocks or are supposed to be weakened already as it is. Plus on Mega Gyara it has more attack so it probably just OHKOs those threats anyway.

 

[Random Passerby]

On the Offensive DD set, shouldn't the Nature be Jolly since that allows you to outspeed up to base 145s? Also, being outsped at +1 by Mega Manectric is pretty bad for Gyarados.

Secondly, slash Earthquake somewhere as a DD with Jolly Nature allows you to outspeed and OHKO Mega Manectric. Lum Berry is also nice to avoid Prankster Thunder Wave from Thundurus and random burns from Scald. I'm not sure what Stone Edge is for unless you really hate Zapdos. Oh, while you're at it, slash Ice Fang together with Earthquake since it gets pretty nice coverage.

EDIT: You can also mention Moxie vs Intimidate (like the Salamence argument )