Other Freed Ubers

[aVocado]

The best Manaphy set I've used is a bulky RainRest one. It's walled by shit like Gastro and Jelli sure, but they're rare nowadays and you should have other means of taking them down.

Manaphy @ Leftovers
Modest
252 HP / 104 SpA / 152 Spe
- Rain Dance
- Rest
- Tail Glow
- Surf

It's ridiculously easy to set up RD and Tail Glow (even twice), then sweep away with Surf. Rest whenever needed. EVs set to outspeed max speed smeargle and everything below it (anything faster isn't worth the investment). HP is maxed, with the leftover dumped into SpA with a modest nature for maximum power.

Edit: Also, Shift Gear should always be used over Rock Polish. It has the same exact effect with the added bonus of +1 attack. . .

 

[Exeggutive]

Edit: Also, Shift Gear should always be used over Rock Polish. It has the same exact effect with the added bonus of +1 attack. . .

Actually you must run hasty on shift gear genesect. Special rp (which is ok atm) really benefits from modest so you wanna use rp in that scenario.

 

[aVocado]

Actually you must run hasty on shift gear genesect. Special rp (which is ok atm) really benefits from modest so you wanna use rp in that scenario.

Ah, yes. Nature-locked event Pokemon ftl.

 

[Tesung]

CAn people stop saying that rock polish is better than shift gear. There is no reason to ever use rock polish, just because you use shift gear doesn't mean that you need to only use physical moves.

 

[TKGriffiths]

CAn people stop saying that rock polish is better than shift gear. There is no reason to ever use rock polish, just because you use shift gear doesn't mean that you need to only use physical moves.

Actually, if Genesect has no physical attacks then Rock Polish is strictly better than Shift Gear to minimize damage from confusion and Foul Play. Also I believe using Shift Gear forces you to use a specific nature (Hasty I think) though I could be wrong about that.

 

[Ropeburn]

Just tried out a team with Thundurus-I and it's insanely good. Get a slow mega like heracross on your team, and just t-wave everything. It's basically insurance for your entire team.

 

[tshahi10]

Actually, if Genesect has no physical attacks then Rock Polish is strictly better than Shift Gear to minimize damage from confusion and Foul Play. Also I believe using Shift Gear forces you to use a specific nature (Hasty I think) though I could be wrong about that.

yes, hasty event shiny genesect must be used with shift gear. rock polish is superior for a special sweeper genesect which i have used to some success.

 

[Xiammes]

Using a modified version of my gen 5 Deoxys Speed lead, it working extremely well in OU

Deoxys-Speed @ Red Card
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 4 DEF / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Spikes
- Stealth Rock
- Taunt
- Magic Coat

Deoxys-S doesn't have the best bulk in the world, but with max HP you can surprisingly take a hit, for example, Genesect fails to 1hko with U-turn. Substituting fire punch for taunt, most people will either try to set up on you, and Magic Coat is for anyone thinking they are cheeky with any prankster users or other Deoxy-S. The Red card is what makes this set so useful in my opinion, it makes you the winner in a Magic Coat war as it forces a switch, it also stops any pivot switches like VoltTurn.

The only thing that stops this set pure power, occasionally I have seen people send in overpowering pokemon as lead but not to often, and when they do, you have to decide if spikes or stealth rocks would be more useful.

 

[Ryolain]

Thundurus-I is an amazing utility Poke, I'm running Twave/Taunt/Knock Off/U-turn and usually leading with it. By the time it has to switch, it's usually paralyzed at least one thing and Knocked Off another as people try to switch around to dodge Twave.

 

[Calm_Mind_Latias]

Thundurus-I is an amazing utility Poke, I'm running Twave/Taunt/Knock Off/U-turn and usually leading with it. By the time it has to switch, it's usually paralyzed at least one thing and Knocked Off another as people try to switch around to dodge Twave.

It doesn't seem to have the bulk to be a dedicated utility Pokemon. I would suggest using Volt Switch over U-turn or HP Ice over Knock Off.

 

[Ryolain]

It doesn't seem to have the bulk to run a dedicated utility Pokemon. I would suggest using Volt Switch over U-turn or HP Ice over Knock Off.

Meh. It takes enough hits, I really use it mainly for anti-leading with priority Taunt and then U-turning out. Don't like being blocked by Ground types and wasting a turn.

 

[SansNickel]

Genesect is still Uber along with Landorus. I don't care if what you say about Talonflame, it can't take a TBolt nor does it enjoy an ice beam and Genesect can just U-Turn on it. Lets not also forget that it's neutered by SR. The only pokemon that truly stands up to Genesrct is still Heatran.

As for Landorus, nothing has changed to make it worse because the special set is what made it broken so the sand nurf hardly matters. If anything, it's better because of sticky web... I say both are Uber but everything else is alright so far.

Rotom-H also beats genesect, resisting ice beam, flamethrower, thunderbolt, bug buzz/u-turn, iron head, etc.. and rotom-h is probably more viable than most people think.

 

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

I've been testing out Landorus-I. It's not all that bad, honestly. It's not nearly as good as last generation though, as the amount of checks has vastly increased (Assault Vest Goodra, Talonflame, Charizard, Togekiss, Florges, just to name a few). That's why I've been experimenting with a mixed wallbreaking set. It looks like this, it probably doesn't make a whole lot of sense but oh well.

Landorus @ Life Orb
Trait: Sheer Force
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Naive Nature (+Spd, -SDef)
- Earth Power
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Focus Blast

It's essentially the same set as last gen, but with EdgeQuake replacing HP Ice and Rock Polish/U-turn. HP Ice got nerfed quite a bit, so I figured might as well run Stone Edge now. Sweeping with Rock Polish proved ineffective to me, as people know what Landorus-I does and they're just prepared for it, and it's just not as strong as last gen. Azumarill and Talonflame being around doesn't help either. U-Turn also lost its niche in weakening its checks like Lati@s and Celebi, because not many players still use them. The coverage with this set is surprisingly good though.

The main reason I've been trying this set is because it catches common switchins by surprise. Special Walls like Florges, AV Goodra and Togekiss now get 2HKO'd by the appropriate move. It requires some prediction to 2HKO switchins, but I really like the results so far. Be sure to pair this up with strong sweepers that benefit from these walls being gone.

I don't think any other poke can pull off a similar set just as effectively, and it definitely has some potential. Gliscor and Landorus-T wall this set, but keep in mind that they are not the first switchins because they both fear HP Ice.

 

[Exeggutive]

I've been testing out Landorus-I. It's not all that bad, honestly. It's not nearly as good as last generation though, as the amount of checks has vastly increased (Assault Vest Goodra, Talonflame, Charizard, Togekiss, Florges, just to name a few). That's why I've been experimenting with a mixed wallbreaking set. It looks like this, it probably doesn't make a whole lot of sense but oh well.

Landorus @ Life Orb
Trait: Sheer Force
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Naive Nature (+Spd, -SDef)
- Earth Power
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Focus Blast

It's essentially the same set as last gen, but with EdgeQuake replacing HP Ice and Rock Polish/U-turn. HP Ice got nerfed quite a bit, so I figured might as well run Stone Edge now. Sweeping with Rock Polish proved ineffective to me, as people know what Landorus-I does and they're just prepared for it, and it's just not as strong as last gen. Azumarill and Talonflame being around doesn't help either. U-Turn also lost its niche in weakening its checks like Lati@s and Celebi, because not many players still use them. The coverage with this set is surprisingly good though.

The main reason I've been trying this set is because it catches common switchins by surprise. Special Walls like Florges, AV Goodra and Togekiss now get 2HKO'd by the appropriate move. It requires some prediction to 2HKO switchins, but I really like the results so far. Be sure to pair this up with strong sweepers that benefit from these walls being gone.

I don't think any other poke can pull off a similar set just as effectively, and it definitely has some potential. Gliscor and Landorus-T wall this set, but keep in mind that they are not the first switchins because they both fear HP Ice.

Double ground is not a good idea lol. Earthpower is better than eq imo. I tried a mix set with sludge wave, earthpower, focus blast and rock slide before and it's pretty underwhelming. Focus blast/sludge wave hit everything hard that rock slide is for except latias... 4 Attacks with either psychic/hp ice/u turn and sludge wave, earthpower, focus blast is what I've been using lately and its very good right now.
With the lack of scarfers and faster things like rak and keldeo, you don't even need rock polish

 

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

Earthquake and Earth Power serve different purposes. EQ lets you get a 2HKO against dedicated special walls like Sylveon, Florges which Earth Power fails to do. Sludge Wave can do this as well, but that leaves you walled by things like Gengar, AV Goodra, specially defensive Zapdos and Blissey... That's the idea behind a mixed set, to take out walls that a fully special/physical set can't.

Anyways I personally like mixed Landorus-I, it's unexpected but very effective too. It has the right stats and movepool for it.

 

[56k]

Genesect to me seems like a pokemon that perfectly rides the line between what is OU and what is uber. I've been giving a lot of thought to the guy and I really can't form a solid opinion on him. Of course I like using him. Genesect+Rotom-W+Greninja is just a retarded good team to play, but not one of them is definitively overpowered in my mind. I think Gen 5 stressed things, but Gen 6 has completely thrown the idea of counters out the window. Movepools have just inflated too much to the point that almost every top-100 pokemon has something to get around it's counters. Someone out there is using LO Genesect with HP Ground and lolling at good-to-do Heatran users. Genesect has no counters but it doesn't matter, OU is now that tier of uncounterables and it can't change.

I don't think Genesect is effortless to play. First choice to make is what item, and now it's a pick-your-poison scenario where scarf is the most reliably but gets shat on by faster scarfers out there (and it gives away free information after 1 use), and expert belt is the most rewarding but get's shat on by teams chock full of base 100s+. Personally I use Normal Gem Explosion because it's fun. In the end I guess I hope he sticks around. Talonflame eats it for breakfast and in my opinion that's reason enough for something to be not-uber.

Landorus is an interesting one. His Earth Power is ridiculous and I still continue to make mistakes like switching SpD ferrothorn into it lol. However I find his speed tier to be such that it's just not quite uber. Latios, Gengar, Thundurus, etc are all there to pwn him. I think we need pokemon like Landorus around to make sure people are being honest with their speed and not getting greedy with Adamant chomps and Modest Keldeo's. In a certain sense, I think Landorus in particular is making such pokemon "weaker" because they MUST run the speed nature, and that's good overall. This pokemon is of course flawed like any other. Namely weakness to water, but also ice (allowing plenty of piss weak HP ices to kill it).

Finally we have good ol' Thundurus. This guy is powerful as fuck and TWave Taunts bitches like no one's business. Well, I think he's allowed to do that. A million and one things can OHKO him, so running Thundurus means you want the fastest TWave in the game (besides whimsicott's unreliable stun spore that doesn't work on electric OR grass). I think this is acceptable. People who decide to run Gengar are allowed to have his disable substitute shenanigans and you are not allowed to complain about it. People who run Talonflame are allowed to have frail brave bird and you can't complain about it. People who decide to run Thundurus are allowed to have their precious TWave + boltbeam and... it's fine. He's strong as fuck but new mechanics and priority attacks across the board are limiting him against what he was capable of in Gen 5 with infinite rain. Plenty of things that he can't kill can also hit him behind substitutes. Good, great even, but not centralizing.

 

[Shurtugal]

Personally u-turn Lando is quite amazing espec. with naive since crap like Lucario and Exca think they outspeed you with jolly / timid (in lucario a case b4 mevo) as well as Garchomp and m-pins ir and all kinds of stuff.

Gravity Land with SW is also rly amazing it kindve wrecks so many souls.

Ill comment on others later

 

[Calm_Mind_Latias]

I've been testing out Landorus-I. It's not all that bad, honestly. It's not nearly as good as last generation though, as the amount of checks has vastly increased (Assault Vest Goodra, Talonflame, Charizard, Togekiss, Florges, just to name a few). That's why I've been experimenting with a mixed wallbreaking set. It looks like this, it probably doesn't make a whole lot of sense but oh well.

Landorus @ Life Orb
Trait: Sheer Force
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Naive Nature (+Spd, -SDef)
- Earth Power
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Focus Blast

It's essentially the same set as last gen, but with EdgeQuake replacing HP Ice and Rock Polish/U-turn. HP Ice got nerfed quite a bit, so I figured might as well run Stone Edge now. Sweeping with Rock Polish proved ineffective to me, as people know what Landorus-I does and they're just prepared for it, and it's just not as strong as last gen. Azumarill and Talonflame being around doesn't help either. U-Turn also lost its niche in weakening its checks like Lati@s and Celebi, because not many players still use them. The coverage with this set is surprisingly good though.

The main reason I've been trying this set is because it catches common switchins by surprise. Special Walls like Florges, AV Goodra and Togekiss now get 2HKO'd by the appropriate move. It requires some prediction to 2HKO switchins, but I really like the results so far. Be sure to pair this up with strong sweepers that benefit from these walls being gone.

I don't think any other poke can pull off a similar set just as effectively, and it definitely has some potential. Gliscor and Landorus-T wall this set, but keep in mind that they are not the first switchins because they both fear HP Ice.

I may think about it... One should keep in mind that an LO Earthquake from Lando-I (even if it is Timid) is more powerful than a uninvested Earthquake from Lando-T.


Here's some interesting calcs:
0 Atk Life Orb Landorus Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Sylveon: 242-285 (61.4 - 72.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

compared to:

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sylveon: 138-164 (35 - 41.6%) -- 74.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sylveon: 192-229 (48.7 - 58.1%) -- 58.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

(Note Sludge Wave does not get the nifty poison side effect, and it is not really a spamable attack due to the common resistances and immunities to it)
----

0 Atk Life Orb Landorus Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 312-369 (77.2 - 91.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Tyranitar in Sand: 291-343 (72 - 84.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Earthquake is the most reliable option against TTar, except if it is running a physically defensive set (and that's still a 2hko), although I haven't heard of that as usually TTar leverages its special defense.

---

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Clefable: 250-294 (63.4 - 74.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

A two hit KO against Clefable
-------

I do not think Stone Edge gets the Sheer Force boost; in this case, Rock Slide is better since it is almost as powerful as Stone Edge (97.5 base power), but it decreases your chance of an myocardial infarction by 50%.

These calcs seem to demonstrate that Sludge Wave is quite redundant, and does does not need it to beat grounded Fairies. In practice, I did not like it because it was not spammable since it can be predicted around by switching in something such as an steel Air Balloon Pokemon, which would be immune to its Ground attacks and Sludge Wave.

Here is an important caveat when running Earthquake:
Still, you have to be very careful against Stall Teams, very careful, and do not fall into the temptation of bloodlust and aggression. Earthquake is a "surprise" factor: do not let them scout you with Protect. It is also nice for the occasional Wobbetfet.

Some other calcs:

Mega Medicham:

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Medicham: 261-308 (100 - 118%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham Bullet Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 80-95 (25 - 29.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

---
Against an non-setup Lucario:

It outspeed Lucario during the turn of Mega Evolution:

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Lucario: 608-717 (216.3 - 255.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

(if it is at full health, it can stop has a chance to stop Special Lucario that hasn't set-up, and checks physical Lucario well, unless it runs something like Iron Tail)

252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Flash Cannon vs. 4 HP / 0- SpD Landorus: 248-292 (77.5 - 91.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 155-183 (48.4 - 57.1%) -- 92.6% chance to 2HKO

Mega Mawile:

It hits is weaker special side:

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Mawile: 476-562 (156.5 - 184.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Once it is set-up, however, Lando-I is DOA, and it has to be at high health in order to check it :

252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 180-212 (56.2 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Mega Gardevoir:

0 Atk Life Orb Landorus Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Gardevoir: 242-285 (71.1 - 83.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO



========================================



I don't know about Focus Blast though. Earthquake hits TTar hard and Heatran dies with any Earth attack. Here are some notable Gen 5 mons that have more damage inflicted via Focus Blast than Earthquake or Earth Power: Ferrothorn, Hydreigon, Breloom, Kyurem-B, and Skarmory.

(Ferrothorn and Skarmory as good reasons to pack Focus Blast since Psychic doesn't deal with them)

Psychic hits Breloom, Conkeldurr, Gengar, Mega-Venusaur, and Mega-Heracross harder than the ground attacks. It is about as just as hard on anything that doesn't resist it that is 2x as super-effective with HP Ice. Therefore, the only reason one would run HP Ice is to hit quad weak targets, such as Gliscor and the Landos. Garchomp outspeed its and Dragonite is rather iffy with it carrying Weakness Policy, so Stealth Rock support is necessary. With Weakness Policy and Multiscale, I do not think it is in range for a Download Genesect to kill. The aforementioned Pokemon seem to be the relevant threats that Psychic hits harder than Rock Slide though, based on the coverage calculator here. Psychic seems to be justifiable only if

Rock Slide, in general, provides better super-effective coverage than Psychic. It hits Mega-Pinsir as it is setting up, Talonflame if Lando's health is sufficiently high, non-mega, non-invested Gyarados even through Intimidate, the aforementioned Togekiss, Dragonite and other flying types. It hits specially defensive Rotom the same amount as Psychic though, although Psychic is more reliable. It has about the same power as Lando-T's Stone Edge (and more accuracy), but Lando-T is a better user of Stone Edge due to its bulk and ability. Rock Slide can be spammed for about 30% damage on a neutral switch-in and it least pop balloons, but it has the accuracy issue.

Returning to Focus Blast. This is probably the most powerful user of Focus Blast in the game due to the Sheer Force boost and Life Orb. Despite is awful accuracy, getting past physically defensive Skarmory and Ferrothorn with it is too valuable. (And it is ironically the strongest attack against Breloom besides Psychic). Focus Blast is seems to be necessary if you want this to be a dedicated wall breaker.

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Skarmory: 272-320 (81.4 - 95.8%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Ferrothorn: 356-421 (101.1 - 119.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

(Earth Power does about 50% to Ferrothorn if it is specially defensive and can 2HKO physically defensive sets)

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Ferrothorn: 200-238 (56.8 - 67.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Superpower can be an option over Earthquake if one loathes the Pink Blobs or if one doesn't mind Fairies. It can hit Air Balloon Heatran (if it doesn't run HP Ice) and OHKO Excadrill.


====

Thundurus-I seems to be a great partner due to its STAB Thunderbolt dealing with flying types and HP Ice to deal with things immune to T-Wave that also fly. It provides a less stressful experience against Skarmory since it can just Tbolt it. Prankster T-wave checks Genesect and other Scarfed attackers. Still, this duo is weak to Levitate users such the Lati Twins, since Thundurus can only hit them with weak Hidden Powers.

I don't know what set Thundurus-I should run in conjunction with the wall breaking Landorus-I. Should it use Volt Switch or Thunderbolt as its primary attack? T-Wave, Thunderbolt, HP Ice, or Taunt/Volt Switch/U-turn. Should it use Leftovers or Life Orb?

Is there some synergy to Volt Switch and Taunt against Stall that would justify removing T-bolt?
---

Overall nice set. :)

 

[ImaLazyProcrastinator]

I know using Sticky Web support as an argument can make almost any pokemon seem ridiculous, but Landorus-I is probably one of the best pokemon to be supported by it. So many of the pokemon usually used to outspeed and ko Landorus are obliterated by Earth Power, and it allows Landorus to put out constant pressure. It might seem like RP would do the same thing, but it's a lot tougher nowadays to get it off, and you lose out on some coverage for it. I was just using Earth Power/HP Ice/Psychic/Focus Blast, have some teammates weaken things like Rotom-W, and then just go to town spamming attacks which very few things can switch into.

 

[termi]

These Pokemon are hardly bulky...

89/80/80 or 71/95/95 is pretty bulky for an offensive mon, at least good enough to tank a powerful neutral hit if needed. You make it sound like they're frail, but they're not. The problem is that they can cause a lot of trouble with their amazing power, but can still tank a hit when they fail to KO something.

That being said, I'm not entirely sure about any of these being necessarily broken, at least not right now. Landorus, of course, remains one of the biggest motherfuckers on earth when you're playing stall, but is at least managable when you're playing offense, considering you've probably got Pokemon in better speed tiers and/or powerful priority users (although it has to be said that powerful priority isn't exactly the most reliable way of killing Lando: Adamant CB Talonflame fails to OHKO a healthy Landorus (see, this is why its bulk is important)). Genesect can do anything it wants, basically, and I do think he'll be banned in the future, but right now the meta is pretty unstable and as long as MegaLuke are running around Gene actually helps in checking these (quite obviously broken) threats. Once these are gone, Gene probably has to go, too, especially when everyone figures out that Gene can do anything it wants so that facing a Gene on the ladder doesn't automatically mean it's Scarf.

I have no idea what to think of Thundy, as I haven't seen a successfully executed Thundurus yet, but in theory it sounds managable. Gotta see how much of that is true, though.

 

[Metalhand]

All of those pokemons are good, but I don't think any of those are ban worthy. One 'mon that almost everybody say it should be banned is Genesect, and I really don't get why. I won't deny its a good pokemon, but everyone say its too strong and broken, I really gotta ask-what make everyone see him as broken or top threat?

 

[Calm_Mind_Latias]

89/80/80 or 71/95/95 is pretty bulky for an offensive mon, at least good enough to tank a powerful neutral hit if needed. You make it sound like they're frail, but they're not. The problem is that they can cause a lot of trouble with their amazing power, but can still tank a hit when they fail to KO something.

That being said, I'm not entirely sure about any of these being necessarily broken, at least not right now. Landorus, of course, remains one of the biggest motherfuckers on earth when you're playing stall, but is at least managable when you're playing offense, considering you've probably got Pokemon in better speed tiers and/or powerful priority users (although it has to be said that powerful priority isn't exactly the most reliable way of killing Lando: Adamant CB Talonflame fails to OHKO a healthy Landorus (see, this is why its bulk is important)). Genesect can do anything it wants, basically, and I do think he'll be banned in the future, but right now the meta is pretty unstable and as long as MegaLuke are running around Gene actually helps in checking these (quite obviously broken) threats. Once these are gone, Gene probably has to go, too, especially when everyone figures out that Gene can do anything it wants so that facing a Gene on the ladder doesn't automatically mean it's Scarf.

I have no idea what to think of Thundy, as I haven't seen a successfully executed Thundurus yet, but in theory it sounds managable. Gotta see how much of that is true, though.

I would say that there bulk is quite problematic but manageable, since they need to be fairly healthy to act as offensive checks to offensive threats, particularly those with priority, and these Pokemon usually do not run Leftovers or have defensive abilities. You could argue however, that there checking power lies in their speed and movesets as they can pre-empt a dire situation by denying opposing Pokemon a crucial set-up turn.

For example:

For Thundurus:

+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Thundurus: 130-153 (43.3 - 51%) -- 5.1% chance to 2HKO

It needs to have around 70% health to survive the encounter, but at least it can paralyze for something else to kill it thanks to its speed tier.

252+ Atk Flying Gem Talonflame Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Thundurus: 125-147 (41.6 - 49%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

If it is not Jolly since Thundurus's speed tier allows it to barely outrun Adamant Talonflame. Jolly Flare Blitz kills it with Stealth Rock, but at least Thundurus stands a 25% chance if it chooses to use Flare Blitz.


--
For Landorus:

252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 180-212 (56.2 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

And that is without Mawile using a turn of set-up.

 

[termi]

All of those pokemons are good, but I don't think any of those are ban worthy. One 'mon that almost everybody say it should be banned is Genesect, and I really don't get why. I won't deny its a good pokemon, but everyone say its too strong and broken, I really gotta ask-what make everyone see him as broken or top threat?

Right now, it isn't too hard to handle because most Genesects are running the same set anyways (Choise Scarf).

Here are the problems with Genesect in the hands of someone who knows what he/she is doing:
- Download. Download allows Genesect to essentially gain either a Choice Band or a Choice Specs every time it comes in without having to lock itself into a move. This is huge, because
- Genesect has a stupidly wide movepool. It can run any of the elemental beams, meaning it gets amazing coverage. On the physical side, it doesn't have great coverage, but it does have a boosting move (Shift Gear), a scouting move (STAB U-Turn) and powerful priority (Extremespeed). Genesect doesn't exactly mind going mixed with this movepool, so even when it has just launched an Ice Beam, that doesn't mean that next time he comes in, it's safe to switch your Blissey in.
- Great stats. Kind of an open door, but yeah, he's a legendary, he's got 600 BST, he's got mixed offenses of 120/120, which is great to begin with, he's got enough bulk to tank a neutral hit if it has to, its speed is so-so for an offensive mon, but not necessarily a disaster.
- He can literally run any set he wants. With the three above facts combined, he really doesn't have many limits. He can run specially based Choice Scarf, physically based Choice Scarf, (mixed) Choice Band, (mixed) Choice Specs, Expert Belt, Life Orb, physically based Shift Gear, specially based Shift Gear, pretty much any offensive role can be viably fulfilled by him. Sure, right now it's usually safe to assume you're facing a scarfer, but once people start learning how to abuse Genesect properly, you can't safely assume what set it is at all until you've noticed something strange (U-Turn does more than it should do, Life Orb recoil, outspeeds things it otherwise wouldn't outspeed, etc). It'll eventually become the next MegaLuke: You don't know what set it is until it has already killed something. Well, at least it has some Pokemon that counter it, but you see what I'm getting at. Right now it's ok, in a few months it'll be a terror.

I would say that there bulk is quite problematic but manageable, since they need to be fairly healthy to act as offensive checks to offensive threats, particularly those with priority, and these Pokemon usually do not run Leftovers or have defensive abilities. You could argue however, that there checking power lies in their speed and movesets as they can pre-empt a dire situation by denying opposing Pokemon a crucial set-up turn.

For example:

For Thundurus:

+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Thundurus: 130-153 (43.3 - 51%) -- 5.1% chance to 2HKO

It needs to have around 70% health to survive the encounter, but at least it can paralyze for something else to kill it thanks to its speed tier.

252+ Atk Flying Gem Talonflame Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Thundurus: 125-147 (41.6 - 49%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

If it is not Jolly since Thundurus's speed tier allows it to barely outrun Adamant Talonflame. Jolly Flare Blitz kills it with Stealth Rock, but at least Thundurus stands a 25% chance if it chooses to use Flare Blitz.


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For Landorus:

252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 180-212 (56.2 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

And that is without Mawile using a turn of set-up.

Flying Gem Acrobatics is ded, you know.

 

[Calm_Mind_Latias]

Flying Gem Acrobatics is ded, you know.

Do you mean "dead"?

A more suicidal set can use Brave Bird plus Life Orb recoil. Just divide by 1.2 or something for a more "bulky" Brave Bird + Leftovers (as the recoil really doesn't matter if you are trying to get the last 10%).

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I do not want Genesect to be banned though. I really do not want the meta the lose a powerful ExtremeSpeed user since it provides another means to beat Talonflame. Instead of a Band or Specs boost, I consider Download to provide provide pseudo-STAB.

Genesect doesn't exactly mind going mixed with this movepool, so even when it has just launched an Ice Beam, that doesn't mean that next time he comes in, it's safe to switch your Blissey in.

I like mixed attackers a lot since they can crack open stall teams. The Download boost plus the flinch rate on Iron Head (and its immunity to Toxic) makes it an excellent stall breaker since it makes opponents who think they can stall it out with Recover at a disadvantage. I guess I have an anti-stall bias. The Blissey can still scout the Genesect with Protect if your opponent is suspicious about an Expert Belt to see if it has switched moves.

 

[haunter]

He means that Flying Gem is not available in X/Y, therefore the AcroGem strategy is dead.

Also, don't want to repeat myself but, please, do not discuss bans/unbans. Don't force me to start to hand out warnings.