Dragonite

[Pokémon Trainer R]

Well actually, I'd say that the only period in time in which Dragonite ever arguably had no notable niche over Salamence was between the release of Pokémon Platinum and the release of Pokémon HeartGold and SoulSilver in Generation IV (with one's viewpoint on that depending on how highly one regards the move Superpower).

As for this generation, if Dragon Dance actually turns out to be a viable strategy (something I'm unsure of, as I mentioned in my previous post, as well as because the Generation V battling environment hasn't really become stable yet), I'd say that Dragonite would definitely be the better option for that, as regardless of how much faster than Dragonite Salamence may be, it still cannot avoid being revenge-killed by Ice Shard users and Choice Scarf Garchomp, while preserving Dragonite's Multi-Scale isn't that difficult if Dragonite is holding Leftovers, and is placed in a team with a Pokémon with the Magic Mirror ability (and if Dragonite's Multi-Scale somehow gets nullified, then it isn't really in any worse a situation than Salamence normally would be anyway, as in that case they would both get revenge-killed by the exact same Pokémon in that situation), which I believe to be essential on any team focused on a Pokémon which relies on Multi-Scale or Sturdy anyway.

Salamence's greatest niche in this generation would come from mixed attacking with Life Orb in my opinion, due to its Attack being significantly higher than that of Sazandorah, while its Special Attack is noticeably higher than that of Dragonite. Dragonite could still compete with it in this role though, due to the fact that it can also serve a double-role as a lead or revenge-killer against weakened Pokémon at the same time, and also once again due to its Multi-Scale ability. However, I believe that Salamence's Speed and Special Attack advantage would help it more at mixed attacking.

 

[Murkglow]

Actually this discussion began when Celest said Dragonite was Superior to Salamence and SJCrew's overreaction to it.

Personally I didn't find his response to be that extreme or an "overreaction"... It was "colorful" and made generalizations but who doesn't?

As for this generation, if Dragon Dance actually turns out to be a viable strategy (something I'm unsure of, as I mentioned in my previous post, as well as because the Generation V battling environment hasn't really become stable yet), I'd say that Dragonite would definitely be the better option for that, as regardless of how much faster than Dragonite Salamence may be, it still cannot avoid being revenge-killed by Ice Shard users and Choice Scarf Garchomp, while preserving Dragonite's Multi-Scale isn't that difficult if Dragonite is holding Leftovers, and is placed in a team with a Pokémon with the Magic Mirror ability (and if Dragonite's Multi-Scale somehow gets nullified, then it isn't really in any worse a situation than Salamence normally would be anyway, as in that case they would both get revenge-killed by the exact same Pokémon in that situation), which I believe to be essential on any team focused on a Pokémon which relies on Multi-Scale or Sturdy anyway.

Salamence's greatest niche in this generation would come from mixed attacking with Life Orb in my opinion, due to its Attack being significantly higher than that of Sazandorah, while its Special Attack is noticeably higher than that of Dragonite. Dragonite could still compete with it in this role though, due to the fact that it can also serve a double-role as a lead or revenge-killer against weakened Pokémon at the same time, and also once again due to its Multi-Scale ability. However, I believe that Salamence's Speed and Special Attack advantage would help it more at mixed attacking.

Notice how I didn't talk about what nitch either of them covered in my comments? I don't care what either of them does or is better at. My response has only been about how neither overshadows the other.

As for your comments regarding retaining Multi-scale. Leftovers really isn't going to save it from taking a hit on the switch in or from SR so I don't really consider Leftovers a big factor in whether Multi-Scale stays active or not. Roost of course matters but that takes a turn your enemy might not give you or at the very least requires prediction (do you DD or Roost on the switch/ect...). And as for stopping SR, it's definatly possible but I hope we are not really depending on a Magic Mirror poke (the only ones I am aware of being Espeon/Xatu neither of whom can take a hit to save its life anyway from most leads).

 

[Pokémon Trainer R]

I agree that neither of them "overshadow" the other completely. In fact, contrary to popular beliefs, I'd say that in the most technical sense of this word, one fully-evolved Pokémon "overshadowing" another, such that the latter Pokémon has absolutely zero niches over the former, is something which rarely ever happens (this isn't to say that it has never happened though, especially in older generations, but it seems that it happens far less often than many people seem to believe), especially in Generation V. However, just because neither Dragonite nor Salamence overshadow each other completely as a Pokémon, does not mean that neither of them have specific roles in which they overshadow the other, and my only point is that Dragonite most likely overshadows Salamence given within the role as a Dragon Dancer, while Salamence most likely overshadows Dragonite in the role as a mixed attacker (without Extremespeed), in the same sense that Blissey would overshadow Snorlax as a special wall, but Snorlax overshadows Blissey in offense. It is indeed impossible to claim that one Pokémon in general can do everything another Pokémon can do better in this situation, but such a claim would be entirely possible by defining the two Pokémon with a specific role within the comparison. Thus, I do completely agree that the notion of Salamence "falling out of usage" is more than likely nonsense. Being around 31st is reasonable though.

Anyway, the purpose of Leftovers is only really to prevent Multi-Scale from being nullified by Sandstorm or Hail damage, while Magic Mirror is to prevent Stealth Rock from doing the same thing. Speaking of that, I will now point back at the strategy I spoke of three pages ago. That actually worked very effectively back when Generation V was first available on Pokémon Online, though reflecting entry hazards with Magic Mirror may not be as effective nowadays, as people are probably more on guard against it.

 

[DragNezone]

Dragonite is a beast this gen. dittos have come in and tried to use my +1 outrage on me and i always survive and ohko them back. hey seriously can take just about any attack with multiscale. i think i tuk a draco meteor from latios or sazandora cnt remember tho

 

[Pokémon Trainer R]

Assuming Latios and Sazandorah are not holding Life Orb or Choice Specs, Dragonite can easily take a Draco Meteor from them. However, if they are holding such items, then Dragonite would need to invest a lot of HP and Special Defense EVs in order to survive.

By the way, exactly what EVs are you using to allow Dragonite to survive a Dragon Danced Outrage from itself?

 

[JSND]

im sorry for saying Dnite outclass mence. I love them both and have used them both this gen too. DD mence is too slow(something gen 4 player will never though of its like the unthinkable has happened like hera in UU) this meta. Remember in the smog they said this ? "What was arguably the biggest advantage Dragonite had over Salamence was no more, and the beast was unleashed. Before Platinum, the only Salamence you would ever encounter was SpecsMence. Occasionally people ran a Dragon Dance version, but for the most part that was outclassed by Dragonite, and wasn't even worth it due to the popularity of Choice Scarf Garchomp"
"DUE TO THE POPULARITY OF CHOICE SCARF GARCHOMP."
If chomp somehow got a limitation to scarf set theres no way mence will be popular like back in later gen 4(DD mence. Mixmence is still nice). In this case Nite has the bulk to stand in this new more offensive meta(offensive meta where stall is overpowerd ? seriously gamefreak what are you thinking ?) And MS make him able to outspeed what mence can in 1 turn set up. Obviously nite got the advantage as of now

 

[Lee]

Just to think outside the box for a sec, I quite like Dragonite as a recipient of BP'd boosts because Multi-Scale will practically guarantee that he can get without taking critical damage. I don't mean on the end of a BP chain, just a simple SD-passing Pokemon + Dragonite seems like a nice little combo.

It's just heartbreaking that Extremespeed and Aqua Jet are illegal together because Dragon Claw/Extremespeed/Fire Punch/Aqua Jet Dragonite with Multi Scale @ Life Orb seems like an absolutely incredible recipient for Swords Dance'd boosts. Without Aqua Jet though you're going to get revenge killed by stuff like Scarf Shandera, Scarf Heatran, Scarf Tyranitar and Sand Throw Doryuuzu. Without Extremespeed you get revenge killed by too many things to list. Shame...

I suppose you could use a Shell Break + Baton Pass Gorebyss to pass to Dragonite because even with the -1 defenses, Multi-Scale allows him to come in on some super-powerful attacks but that might end up being more effort than it's worth.

 

[JSND]

Just to think outside the box for a sec, I quite like Dragonite as a recipient of BP'd boosts because Multi-Scale will practically guarantee that he can get without taking critical damage. I don't mean on the end of a BP chain, just a simple SD-passing Pokemon + Dragonite seems like a nice little combo.

It's just heartbreaking that Extremespeed and Aqua Jet are illegal together because Dragon Claw/Extremespeed/Fire Punch/Aqua Jet Dragonite with Multi Scale @ Life Orb seems like an absolutely incredible recipient for Swords Dance'd boosts. Without Aqua Jet though you're going to get revenge killed by stuff like Scarf Shandera, Scarf Heatran, Scarf Tyranitar and Sand Throw Doryuuzu. Without Extremespeed you get revenge killed by too many things to list. Shame...

I suppose you could use a Shell Break + Baton Pass Gorebyss to pass to Dragonite because even with the -1 defenses, Multi-Scale allows him to come in on some super-powerful attacks but that might end up being more effort than it's worth.

Well Gorebyss use White herb for that matter. The problem is too scout for erufun etcetera anyway

 

[Ericcc]

Wow thank goodness for this new ability. Goodbye variably useless Inner Focus, hello amazing Multi Scale.

It's going to be great on this bulky guy.

but...

wait, how does Drago still have Roost? :o

 

[KurashiDragon]

You gotta take a closer look at the op. It learns roost by level up Ericcc.

 

[WingedKnight]

Wow, I missed quite the debate.
I definitely agree with what everyone else said though. Mence and Nite are so different this gen that it's not really proper to compare them in terms of who's "better."
Moving away from contentious issues, Ericcc's post made me realize, it sure is lucky Dragonite has Roost by level-up. I can't imagine the widespread rage if he was given the mighty Multiscale and it was incompatible with Roost. Same with Extremespeed (egg move) for lead purposes. Superpower is pretty much the only move of note he lost in the shift, and to be honest it wasn't all that great. Everything else he picked up/retained is the stuff that really makes him a beast.

 

[deluge]

I thought Dragonite was outclassed by Salamence in the tail end of Gen IV.
But Dragonite gradually gained attributes to set it apart from its brother.
Salamence is still the fastest Pokemon with DD (aside from Latios which is seldom physical) so as an offensive Dancer it's unmatched.
However, with Multiscale Nite may actually be able to take advantage of its bulk while having more than one moveslot left for attacking.
Extremespeed's boosted priority is also a boon with all the priority status running around (Sableye's immune though).

 

[Ericcc]

However, with Multiscale Nite may actually be able to take advantage of its bulk while having more than one moveslot left for attacking.

Exactly
I think now Dnite actually has something going for it. The natural bulk really didn't have that much of an impact on its rising on the OU tier (I know it did after Mence was banned; I'm just not sure how much it did rise); the only thing was that it was the only dragon people could use, besides Kingdra and Flygon, hope I didn't miss any. It was mainly used as a DDer for a while, until its role was pretty often seen as a lead.
However, now with MultiScale, I think Dragonite's role as a DDer will actually be legitimate and viable. SR is still a problem though...

 

[Joshiro]

Multi-Scale is pretty amazing. LO Jolly 252 AT Weavile's Ice Shard takes less than half life off of Multi-Scale 252 HP 0 Def +Def Nature Dragonite. You could literally Roost stall Weavile until LO kills him lol. If you use Leftovers you don't even have to run Def nature. Any not-retarded Weavile user would taunt you or realize that he's never actually going to kill you and perhaps switch, but you get the idea.

 

[Scoopapa]

Multi scale is beastly on Dragonite, enough to make defensive sets that were dubious last gen viable. I've been using this set, which takes advantage of some of Dragonite's new options.

Dragonite @ Leftovers
252 HP /252 SpD /4 Def, Sassy
Roost
Dragon Tail
Earthquake
Fire Blast

It routinely takes Draco Meteors and Ice Beams for less than 50% damage. It can then smack the offender with Dragon Tail, dealing ~66% to the likes of Sazandora and Lati@s. It really shines on a spike stacking team, where you can Roost stall with Toxic Spikes or rack up hazard damage with Dragon Tail. His good attacking stats allow him to go mixed and abuse his insane coverage, although he does lack a strong STAB on this set. Still, the fact that you can hit any Steel-type for 2x damage is great since they are common switches into Dragonite.

There may be a more efficient EV spread, considering that at full health you still have to be careful around Life Orb STAB Outrages and Banded Stone Edges.

 

[DragNezone]

Assuming Latios and Sazandorah are not holding Life Orb or Choice Specs, Dragonite can easily take a Draco Meteor from them. However, if they are holding such items, then Dragonite would need to invest a lot of HP and Special Defense EVs in order to survive.

By the way, exactly what EVs are you using to allow Dragonite to survive a Dragon Danced Outrage from itself?

i think it was just bulky nite. and i had multi scale activated. i survived barely but was able to kill of tht pesky ditto. and i havent had alot of problems with SR actually i either roost as they switch or they never set it up (i run mischievous heart leads)

 

[SJCrew]

Actually the same can be said for any other set up sweeper. I don't understand where your coming from when you say "Salamence can do this when dragonite cant." Apart from 20 more base power and "1" more ATK there's not very much they do differently in terms of "Set up here and proceed to sweep." I can only understand the different situations. Even then Salamence still has the exact same problems dragonite is suffering from except with more speed.

I already addressed this. Salamence's higher speed and Intimidate makes full offense sets more viable on him. After a DD, he OHKOs those walls. Dnite's bulky spreads can't do that. Even if their stats are similar, they are forced to function differently and therefore, Dnite cannot overpower things the way Mence does.

Actually this discussion began when Celest said Dragonite was Superior to Salamence and SJCrew's overreaction to it.

wat

No, he was right the first time. People were starting to say Dragonite was better than Salamence, which had to be debunked right away, of course.

I can understand that they're similar in terms of a pure set up sweeper set and a mixed set

Dragonite may have a fancy movepool and Multiscale, but for all intents and purposes, he's still comparable to Salamence. They're both still setup sweepers with the same typing and about the same amount of offensive power. The moves they use are mostly the same too.

It's hard not to compare Dragons to other Dragons. They may all be unique in their own ways, but Dragon is still a highly feared offensive type and it's inevitable that you'd want to form a hierarchy among the gods.

Multi-Scale is pretty amazing. LO Jolly 252 AT Weavile's Ice Shard takes less than half life off of Multi-Scale 252 HP 0 Def +Def Nature Dragonite. You could literally Roost stall Weavile until LO kills him lol. If you use Leftovers you don't even have to run Def nature. Any not-retarded Weavile user would taunt you or realize that he's never actually going to kill you and perhaps switch, but you get the idea.

187.6% - 221.8%

Ice Punch still OHKOs lol. Bulky Nite is never faster after a DD.

I've seen people try to get a DD on Weavile before. Multiscale is not auto-Jesus, guys.

 

[DragNezone]

its nt auto jesus but its a free light screen and reflect all in one when at 100% health and i havent had difficulty with SR too much

 

[ForteAnly]

Just stop it already guys. This is a thread to discuss Gen V Dragonite not a Salamence is better than Dragonite or Dragonite is better than Salamence thread.

 

[MXIIA]

"Sense" should be "Since" since you're referring to the past or causation in all your usages, not to the ability to feel/see/hear etc.

 

[Legacy Raider]

Multi scale is beastly on Dragonite, enough to make defensive sets that were dubious last gen viable. I've been using this set, which takes advantage of some of Dragonite's new options.

Dragonite @ Leftovers
252 HP /252 SpD /4 Def, Sassy
Roost
Dragon Tail
Earthquake
Fire Blast

It routinely takes Draco Meteors and Ice Beams for less than 50% damage. It can then smack the offender with Dragon Tail, dealing ~66% to the likes of Sazandora and Lati@s. It really shines on a spike stacking team, where you can Roost stall with Toxic Spikes or rack up hazard damage with Dragon Tail. His good attacking stats allow him to go mixed and abuse his insane coverage, although he does lack a strong STAB on this set. Still, the fact that you can hit any Steel-type for 2x damage is great since they are common switches into Dragonite.

There may be a more efficient EV spread, considering that at full health you still have to be careful around Life Orb STAB Outrages and Banded Stone Edges.

I'd run a set of Dragon Tail / Roost / Safeguard / Fire Blast - being immune to status is extremely important, because once Dragonite is Burned or Toxiced, MultiScale is essentially useless. Even a timely paralysis that prevents you Roosting back to full can spell end game. With hazard support this Dragonite is excellent at shuffling the opponent's team around and just not dying, but it needs reliable support in keeping SR off the field. Fire Blast is preferred over Earthquake because you hit everything but Heatran, and hit Skarmory and Nattorei especially hard. Heatran will get worn down easily by Spikes and Stealth Rock, and can hardly do anything to hurt Dragonite in return, while Skarmory can Taunt, lay Spikes, or if its faster Whirlwind you out, and Nattorei can Leech Seed.

 

[KurashiDragon]

I already addressed this. Salamence's higher speed and Intimidate makes full offense sets more viable on him. After a DD, he OHKOs those walls. Dnite's bulky spreads can't do that. Even if their stats are similar, they are forced to function differently and therefore, Dnite cannot overpower things the way Mence does.

I've already agreed with you on this fact. I know full well that Dragonite can't overpower stuff the way Salamence does and that Offensive sets are more viable on Salamence than on Dragonite. That's not (Or shouldn't) be the way Dragonite does things anymore. BulkyDDnite has more switch in and set up opportunities than OffensiveDDmence. What Salamence offers in pure power and crushing blows, Dragonite offers in versitility and patience sweeping.

Dragonite may have a fancy movepool and Multiscale, but for all intents and purposes, he's still comparable to Salamence. They're both still setup sweepers with the same typing and about the same amount of offensive power. The moves they use are mostly the same too.

I don't believe this is right. I'm not sure who else I speak for but I personally believe that, with this gen, they shouldn't be comparable. I know full well that they both have a few of the same sets but with their own little abilities and moves, they have differents situations in which they do what they do. That enough should make them uncomparable.

I'd run a set of Dragon Tail / Roost / Safeguard / Fire Blast - being immune to status is extremely important, because once Dragonite is Burned or Toxiced, MultiScale is essentially useless. Even a timely paralysis that prevents you Roosting back to full can spell end game. With hazard support this Dragonite is excellent at shuffling the opponent's team around and just not dying, but it needs reliable support in keeping SR off the field. Fire Blast is preferred over Earthquake because you hit everything but Heatran, and hit Skarmory and Nattorei especially hard. Heatran will get worn down easily by Spikes and Stealth Rock, and can hardly do anything to hurt Dragonite in return, while Skarmory can Taunt, lay Spikes, or if its faster Whirlwind you out, and Nattorei can Leech Seed.

While I do like this set and want it to be successful I think the metagame is far to early to start with, what I think is, a gimmicky set.

 

[Legacy Raider]

While I do like this set and want it to be successful I think the metagame is far to early to start with, what I think is, a gimmicky set.

Gimmicky? The very concept of Dragon Dancing in the current metagame is a gimmick. This is one of the few ways that Dragonite can be a team member, by supporting with Safeguard as well as phazing, as opposed to a overzealous one-dimensional wannabe-sweeper which rarely achieves anything by itself.

Also, please try to word your opinion in a slightly more sensitive way (i.e. don't shove it down our throats). We get that you're a Dragonite fan - your avatar, name, and 55 posts in this thread tell us that. Being the OP doesn't mean you need to respond to and pass your judgement on every post someone makes in your thread.

Thanks, have a nice day.

 

[Pokémon Trainer R]

Actually, I'd say that a Dragonite moveset with Dragon Dance, Earthquake, Fire Punch and Outrage, with 252 EVs in Attack and Speed would still be a viable option over any Dragon Dancing Salamence moveset, simply because, as I already mentioned numerous times before, it seems that the most common Pokémon in this generation are all faster than a Salamence with Dragon Dance (either due to Choice Scarf, priority, or otherwise an ability) and can revenge-kill it at full health anyway. Even if the opponent has a Choice Scarf-holding Pokémon that is faster than Dragonite but slower than Salamence, then what would most likely be the greatest consequence of that is that Dragonite takes a hit which Salamence would otherwise avoid, before dealing about the same amount of damage to the opponent anyway (unless that Pokémon is a Choice Scarf-holding Ononokusu with Mold Breaker of course).

The only really notable advantage to using Salamence for Dragon Dance in my opinion, is that Salamence's attacks have the potential to do more damage as it can hold Life Orb, while Dragonite should obviously hold Leftovers instead in order to preserve its Multi-Scale in a Sandstorm or a Hail storm.

i think it was just bulky nite. and i had multi scale activated. i survived barely but was able to kill of tht pesky ditto. and i havent had alot of problems with SR actually i either roost as they switch or they never set it up (i run mischievous heart leads)

I see. I've never tried such a moveset before, but I guess not being able to be revenge-killed by Ditto is definitely a notable advantage such a moveset has over a pure offensive moveset like the one I run.

187.6% - 221.8%

Ice Punch still OHKOs lol. Bulky Nite is never faster after a DD.

I've seen people try to get a DD on Weavile before. Multiscale is not auto-Jesus, guys.

Actually, going by the EVs and Nature Joshiro posted, it doesn't.

Here, Ice Punch's base power is adjusted to 98 instead of 75 to factor in Life Orb's power, and Dragonite's weakness to Ice is adjusted to 2x instead of 4x to factor in Multi-Scale.

 

[WECAMEASROMANS]

While this ability sounds great, you cannot simply just spam roost and DD all day because you will get frozen or critted eventually.