CAP 3 CAP 3 – Part 4 (Style)

[Dane]

Zapdos / Moltres / Articuno, Regice, Gyarados, Togekiss, Walrein, Shuckle all fair absolutely fine as defensive Pokemon, even with their weakness to Stealth Rock.

I agree with all of these, except Moltres and Aricuno. 25% is no big deal, but 50% is just too much. Other than that, good job proving the point (I draw a blank when thinking of bulky Pokemon other than Blissey, Suicune, and Dusknoir).

Both are the same except one imply the collective total of two stats.

Bah, his initial one still implies that the main stat is dependant on the secondary stat, which boggles a logical mind! Plus they are technically different, just not by much in overall stats until you get something huge like Blissey level stats.

 

[Pride]

While it has good potential as an offensive pokemon... The support movepool it could have is too good (Notable Sleep Powder and WoW) to put on something that has poor defenses (Kind of like Infernape); with the inverse being true as well, it just seems like balanced is the way to go. Perhaps with more focus on Special rather then Physical.

 

[Stall]

No he didn't. It says that, to be offensive, both defensive stats have to be 20% lower than the higher attacking stat. Then to be defensive, both offensive stats have to be 20% lower than the higher defending stat.

I'm not sure how to make this any more clear. You need to reread it more carefully, because you're clearly missing something in the definition. Note: The key is that the dependant stats are both 20% lower than the highest independant stat.

Sorry, my mistake. I was confused by the fact he mentioned both Defenses in the Offensive section, and both Attacks in the Defensive section. I thought he was saying an Offensive Pokemon needed both of his Defenses to be lower than both Attacks, not both Defenses lower than the highest Attack.

Again, I misread, my mistake. Sorry for any confusion.

 

[zxn666]

balanced beause inevitably the ability of the pokemon will allowit to sweep prefectly fine. If it is chlorophyll, then speed can be pretty low. If it is Solar power or flower gift, then the attacking stats will recieve boosts and will be pretty srtong as well.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

Bah, his initial one still implies that the main stat is dependant on the secondary stat, which boggles a logical mind! Plus they are technically different, just not by much in overall stats until you get something huge like Blissey level stats.

How is it different, they're both doing about the same time in term description how a pokemon is offensive, defensive, or balanced.

 

[Dane]

How is it different, they're both doing about the same time in term description how a pokemon is offensive, defensive, or balanced.

Let's say you wanted to have an attack stat of 120 and want an offensive Pokemon. Using my method, the defenses couldn't be more than 96.

120 * 0.8 = 96

Using the other method, the defenses couldn't be more than 100.

120 = X * 1.2
120 / 1.2 = X
X = 100

Four point difference between the two methods using a standard value of 120 for the attack stat.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

Okay...now I understand the different. So I guess your method has more leg room so to speak.

 

[eric the espeon]

Well I voted for offencive, it has great STABs and not to good defencive typeing. Its abilitys should work great on an offencive pokemon so why not?

 

[Time Mage]

The only difference is in the threshold chosen, and the way of showing it. With my wording, I could have said "25% higher", which would be the equivalent of Dane's "20% lower". And the same goes backwards: If Dane wrote "83% lower" it would be the equivalent of my "20% higher".

It's really a simple matter of different reference systems.


Oh, and I chose "balanced" because, as other people has mentioned, the typing leads to many possibilities in both ends, so I don't want to limit it much in that sense. Great STAB combination and great support options are not things I'll ignore to center in just one of those.

 

[Dane]

Pretty much, yeah.

 

[Deck Knight]

Water/Ground has no synergy? How about ground completely eliminating Water's Electric weakness? And how is Vire using EQ or Cross Chop a point against Swampert? That just puts Swampert in the same position as the Grass/Fire against Metagross in your previous example (actually, better, since Swampert is immune to Vire's STAB while Grass/Fire merely resists Gross's or is neutral to the very rare Zen Headbutt variants). Zapdos is a different story but unless it carries HP Grass they really can't do anything to each other, except Swampert is being useful and setting up SR while Zapdos is just doing 20-some % to Swampert.

What I meant was that from an offensive standpoint, Earthquake offers little to no support for Waterfall. The two hit (Electric, Steel, [Rock, Fire,] and Ground) pokemon hard, but are both resisted by Grass.

Before we get to "Ice support," look at Fire/Grass:

(Grass, Bug, Ice, Steel,) (Water, Rock, Ground) and are both resisted by Fire and Dragon.

To Water/Ground, Ice support adds Dragon, Flying, and Grass

To Fire/Grass, Ice support adds Dragon and Flying.

In other words, Fire/Grass with Ice support (only HP Ice) only has to worry about other fire types. Give it Flash Fire and even these can't counter it effectively. Ice support also happens to wail on Flying types that would normally switch right in, although its worth noting STAB Fire Blast does more to opposing fliers than SE HP Ice.

The long and short of it is: If we give this a single decent offensive stat and good defenses, this can cover pretty much all of its weaknesses with Super-Effective damage. If it can retaliate a 3HKO with a OHKO, it will always win, and since most of the things that resist one STAB are weak to the other, it offers much greater synergy than Water/Ground.

I'll try and make a better example:

For Fire/Grass I'll just randomly call it Pyrelm.

Enemy Meganium switches into Swampert. Swampert's only option is to Ice Beam or run. Neither of its STABs can do anything to what resists it, and meanwhile it is susceptible to 4x damage.

Enemy Torkoal switches into Pyrelm. Neither really threatens the other. Pyrelm can either try and Subseed and have it spinned away, or try using a Hidden Power. If it had Flash Fire though, Torkoal would be completely SOL.

Enemy Salamence switches in to Pyrelm. Here Salamence has a large upper hand. Pyrelms best shot would be HP Ice. In the meantime, Mence's most powerful move would be either Aerial Ace, HP Flying, Dragon Claw, or Draco Meteor. Roostmence is particular completely shuts out Pyrelm. Nonetheless, if it had enough defenses it could stall out Mence with Subseed, or, depending on status and Mence's set, cripple it with Will-O-Wisp.

Were this a sweeper, Mence would force a switch 100% of the time and probably get a Dragon Dance in. If we give it the defenses to take a hit, even seemingly perfect counters aren't foolproof.

Now I grant you that Swampert is a known quantity and Pyrelm isn't. Either way, Grass's litany of support moves makes even safe switchins risky, and the more hits it can take, the better it does its job.

Ice weakness doesn't mean that a Grass type is suddenly a bad anti-bulky water. A 252 sp atk (which we'll never see on a standard bulky water set, btw) Milotic Ice Beam doesn't even 2HKO the standard 252 HP Celebi.

Celebi has 100/100/100 HP/Defenses, and 600 BST. It isn't a reliable example, which is why I usually prefer Meganium. Milotic also has the option of just Hypnosis'ing Celebi, which is only ineffective due to Natural Cure. It isn't as if you can switch Roserade into Starmie or Milotic Ice Beam with Impunity. Nevermind Tangrowth, Exeggutor, and Torterra, who all have STAB and wherewithall to send most Bulky Waters to the grave in one shot, were it not for Ice Beam stomping them into the ground as they came in.

And as I stated before, there's no Grass Pokemon with Fire STAB - that alone sets it apart from other Fire types, but there are a variety of other factors that will, as well. Part of the purpose of this project is to create unique Pokemon - if you think we can't even do that given such a good platform as Grass/Fire, you must not have much faith in CAP.

I have plenty of faith in CAP, I just don't think creating yet another Fire typed sweeper (this time with STAB Energy Ball/Grass Knot) isn't really unique as much as it is just another fire-type rehash.

 

[Earthworm]

I'm going to vote for Balanced because I think this should be a Pokemon that turns offensive in the Sun but otherwise remains semi-defensive with Leech Seed (semi because it has the threat of STAB Fire moves against Grass types not named Ludicolo!).

 

[SgtWoodsy]

Balanced, and I'd like to see it more on the Offensive side.

 

[beej]

I picked Balanced, because a fast and fragile sweeper is boring and has been done in-game tons of times. Think Starmie or even Swampert. Decently bulky, but with good offense. That's the style I'm going for.

 

[Hyra]

^ That is Heatran's spread. If we go with your spread, Hyra, we'll have essentially made a Heatran- :( (With arguably no typing advantage, since Fire / Grass and Fire / Steel are both awesome)

which is why I said Physical has the originality factor going for it, which is huge. Infernape is a Special Based Fire-type that uses Fire Blast and Nasty Plot to sweep. So, if this is Special, its support options are what will distinguish it from Heatran and Infernape.

The only thing I don't like about going physical is that Flare Blitz is a horrible attack for a SubSeeder. What's the point of being a SubSeeder with Stab Fire if that attack hurts your SubSeeding? Fire Punch is weak, look at Weavile with Ice Punch as its strongest STAB. It gets by, but it can only 3HKO Hippowdon with it. I don't want that happening to this thing.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

which is why I said Physical has the originality factor going for it, which is huge. Infernape is a Special Based Fire-type that uses Fire Blast and Nasty Plot to sweep. So, if this is Special, its support options are what will distinguish it from Heatran and Infernape.

Wouldn't it support options(Wow, Leech Seed, Powders, /screens, supports Gady wish she had) set it apart from Nape and Tran.

The only thing I don't like about going physical is that Flare Blitz is a horrible attack for a SubSeeder. What's the point of being a SubSeeder with Stab Fire if that attack hurts your SubSeeding? Fire Punch is weak, look at Weavile with Ice Punch as its strongest STAB. It gets by, but it can only 3HKO Hippowdon with it. I don't want that happening to this thing.

We could give it either Blaze Kick or a new physical 95 fire move.

 

[Hyra]

Wouldn't it support options(Wow, Leech Seed, Powders, /screens, supports Gady wish she had) set it apart from Nape and Tran.

Isn't that what I said? I meant it would have to use them (aka, not be fragile) or it would just be filling Heatran and Infernape's role. Those two are very hard to outclass, so that's not something I want to do.

We could give it either Blaze Kick or a new physical 95 fire move.

I forgot Blaze Kick existed entirely. And I think this might be the one Pokemon a new move makes sense on. It's not necessary, but it wouldn't be overbearing either (assuming we do this right).

 

[Dane]

If it ends up Physical, and if it has no legs with which to kick, I could see giving it a Physical "Heatwave" attack. "Flame whip" or something.

 

[oinkmooblah]

Balanced.
We have so many pure offense and pure defences on our teams that it's not even funny. Skarmory and Blissey are wondrous examples. Sure there are many balanced as well, but they are far more rare because we tend to prefer either sweepers or walls, hardly ever in between.

 

[Erik]

Balanced.

Syclant was the offensive, Rev became kind of a BL general user. So, with the typing of Fire/Grass it should have some offensive fire with defensive grass. Imagine a Sunny Day powered Fire Blast with Leech Seed and Solar Beam to back it up. Then you can have a powder or a sub. Sounds awesome.

I know we aren't changing moves but, this Fire/Grass would kill if Sunny Day increased the health sucked from leech seed.

 

[Deck Knight]

which is why I said Physical has the originality factor going for it, which is huge. Infernape is a Special Based Fire-type that uses Fire Blast and Nasty Plot to sweep. So, if this is Special, its support options are what will distinguish it from Heatran and Infernape.

The only thing I don't like about going physical is that Flare Blitz is a horrible attack for a SubSeeder. What's the point of being a SubSeeder with Stab Fire if that attack hurts your SubSeeding? Fire Punch is weak, look at Weavile with Ice Punch as its strongest STAB. It gets by, but it can only 3HKO Hippowdon with it. I don't want that happening to this thing.

The problem with a primarily physical Fire-type (and Grass for that matter) is a complete lack of decent physical moves. If you want a good Subseeder, it won't have enough HP to use Flare Blitz or Wood Hammer effectively. Fire Punch would be a stretch depending on design. Seed Bomb is decent and the best of the lot. Fire Fang also is design dependent, and is weak anyway.

A good example for a physical fire is Arcanine. CB Flare Blitz is ridiculously powerful, but even at Base 95 HP, Arcanine still blasts away 30-odd percent taking something out. Don't get me started on the sacrifice involved with fat Bloss.

I think it will depend on design. If this gets Swords Dance and has some kind of arm-like appendage, Swords Dance + Fire Punch + Seed Bomb would do decently. If we give it too much attack though, we might end up building a better Breloom.

 

[Hyra]

The problem with a primarily physical Fire-type (and Grass for that matter) is a complete lack of decent physical moves. If you want a good Subseeder, it won't have enough HP to use Flare Blitz or Wood Hammer effectively. Fire Punch would be a stretch depending on design. Seed Bomb is decent and the best of the lot. Fire Fang also is design dependent, and is weak anyway.

A good example for a physical fire is Arcanine. CB Flare Blitz is ridiculously powerful, but even at Base 95 HP, Arcanine still blasts away 30-odd percent taking something out. Don't get me started on the sacrifice involved with fat Bloss.

I think it will depend on design. If this gets Swords Dance and has some kind of arm-like appendage, Swords Dance + Fire Punch + Seed Bomb would do decently. If we give it too much attack though, we might end up building a better Breloom.

Entire reason I prefer Special over Physical. You did forget Power Whip though; it won't be stuck with Seed Bomb on the Grass end. It's just that it loses the ability to 2HKO almost every Grass type in the game (Ludicolo and Cradily are the exceptions) when using Fire Punch. That is very depressing.

 

[Helios]

Well, Breloom's always gonna be used due to spore + poison heal, which I'm pretty sure we ain't gonna give this. And we can't exactly give it too much attack unless we pump it's defenses.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

Isn't that what I said? I meant it would have to use them (aka, not be fragile) or it would just be filling Heatran and Infernape's role. Those two are very hard to outclass, so that's not something I want to do.

Erh....right? Assumed you meant something else there,sorry. A Fast, not fragile, special sweeper/support/whatever sounds okay to me.

I forgot Blaze Kick existed entirely. And I think this might be the one Pokemon a new move makes sense on. It's not necessary, but it wouldn't be overbearing either (assuming we do this right).

Blaze Kick make a decent physical STAB for it but giving it an signature move or two wouldn't hurt either, like you said.

Off-Topic: I have this weird idea of a Flaming Orchid Flower as a pokemon design (100% Female because I want it female D: )

 

[Deck Knight]

Entire reason I prefer Special over Physical. You did forget Power Whip though; it won't be stuck with Seed Bomb on the Grass end. It's just that it loses the ability to 2HKO almost every Grass type in the game (Ludicolo and Cradily are the exceptions) when using Fire Punch. That is very depressing.

Unless it's special attack is totally nerfed, STAB Overheat absolutely slaughters anything weak to it and a bunch of things that aren't. Fire Blast has similar awesomeness.

Power Whip is kind of like Megahorn. High risk high reward. I had Stone Edge miss 4 times in a row today >_>

Blaze Kick isn't that much better than Fire Punch, and kicks are an even bigger stretch on a plant than punches are. I mean, you could make Bulbs into Flamethrower Arms I suppose (Hi BRAWL Ivysaur) but it's a stretch doing it for legs. If it ends up with Bellsprout roots of some kick I'm still not seeing Blaze Kick.