@ginga:
All of the problems you perceived were real, and I acknowledge them now. however, they're all problems of presentation and not of substance. Would you want to eat a pizza (however delicious) if it looked like shit? That's the problem I have.
O.k, so Gastrodon switchs in, tanks a Stone Edge, tanks a second one, Recovers back up , and 2KOs back with its STAB Ground attack, or just stalls you out of SE PP, while hammering away with Scald, aiming for that 30% Burn Rate. I am not sure what your point was but im pretty sure it does better than Lanturn.
Earthquake vs Lucario: 248-294 (87.94 - 104.25%) -- 31.25% chance to OHKO
First of all, I need to say that I assumed Shouting's Gastrodon would have Earth Power (which does fail to 2HKO Terrakion in Sand), so if it runs Earthquake instead, all my calculations would obviously need to be changed.
In the Terrakion case, I'm guilty of not using the best example. Shouting was saying how Gastrodon does better than Lanturn vs most Sand teams, in part due to a Rock resistance and lack of a Ground weakness. I was pointing out that Gastrodon doesn't actually counter any prominent Sand sweepers. The Terrakion could just as easily have used CC, but the fact that you shouldn't be switching Gastrodon into Terrakion holds true, regardless of the inadequacies of my example. Okay, Gastrodon can take a Choiced Stone Edge. But it'll lose horribly to anything else.
About the Earthquake calc you made, I find it irrelevant, to be honest. When would Gastrodon get a chance to use Earthquake, when SD Lucario at +0 out-speeds and OHKOes you after 1 Spikes or SR (1 Spikes and SR needed to guarantee it). I guess it means that Lucario can't switch into Gastrodon, but it can't switch into Lanturn either. I just don't see how Lucario would possibly be eating that Earthquake in the first place.
ginganinja said:
There is a few things wrong with those paragraphs. For starters, you are implying that Lanturn actually does BETTER than Gastrodon, at handling Gliscor. I don't like how you say "look Lanturn can tank an EQ from Gliscor and then say that Gastrodon gets OHKOed from a +2 EQ after SR. I don't actually know why you are actually comparing that 2 calculations, ones a +0 EQ and ones a +2 EQ, and its not like Lanturn does any better at taking that +2 Earthquake that you are so happy to compare it too.
I honestly did NOT think I implied that Lanturn does better than Gastrodon. If anything, I am guilty of trying to shove multiple ideas into single paragraphs/sentences. Sometimes, there are discrepancies between "author's intent" and "author's message". Everything about Lanturn and everything about Gastrodon were two separate things, or at least they were supposed to be. I didn't think anyone would try and combine them, although I may have presented them that way.
I was pointing out to Shouting, at first, that Lanturn isn't
completely raped by Gliscor all the time, like he said it was. I was showing that he was wrong because Lanturn can technically beat Gliscor from full health (although it obviously can't switch in). The calcs for Gastrodon were supposed to be entirely separate. Contrary to what Shouting said, Gastrodon is not a full-stop to Gliscor, and it hardly even does "all right" against it. It was supposed to say that although SD Gliscor easily one-shots Lanturn, it can do the same to Gastrodon. I was NOT trying to say that Lanturn beats SD Gliscor and Gastrodon does not.
ginganinja said:
That would be because you ignored the fact that Gastrodon has a Ground STAB and screwed calculations to make it seem that Lanturn is better.
I am not actually saying that Gastrodon is better than Lanturn, I posted because your arguments were very flawed and you perhapes need to rephrase things. Quite frankly, I rate Gastrodon about the same as Lanturn, both are mediocre pokemon that have a really small niche, but are half decent cos they check some of the top threats in the metagame. To me, having to use Lanturn to check Thundurus-T and Tornadus just brings me back to having to chuck Gastrodon on most of my teams to check Thundurus in BW, aka an average choice for a teamslot id really like to use on something else but x threat is so dominant I need it checked.
Please tell me I missed someone obvious since those arguments just appear to be clearly wrong and I feel shit pointing them out in a harsh manner
ginga, I used Gastrodon's Ground STAB in all my calculations, although we differ on which Ground STAB to use. As I said earlier in this post, I used Earth Power, because it's what I see on most Gastrodon I face. Against a Sand team, Earthquake would absolutely be better, but I thought to just go with what I see the most.
I'm sorry, but I don't see how you thought I was trying to make Lanturn look better. I wasn't even focusing on Lanturn in that post, I was criticizing Gastrodon the whole time. It was more of a "Gastrodon is not better" than a "Lanturn is better" thing. But I, like most people, are terrible at recognizing their own flaws, so maybe I tried to make Lanturn look better?
To speak metaphorically, the meat and potatoes of my arguments have held true in every case you pointed out. It's just that you couldn't see the meat and potatoes through a thick stew of unclarity. So I respect you pointing out the problems with what I posted, which were abundant, but I don't seem to have been "clearly wrong" at all. :\
Also, yeah you summed up Lanturn pretty well there. Although you forgot to mention that it is the cutest Pokemon of all, just edging out Keldeo. I love it for that.
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@ Ricky Horror:
How are Jirachi and Lanturn NOT counters to Tornadus? Lanturn always switches in safely and always forces Tornadus out (or KOes it). That's what a counter is. I suppose you could make the argument of "Well Tornadus can just keep switching out". But if you make that argument, the NOTHING has counters, because it could just switch out.
But with Jirachi, it doesn't matter how many times Tornadus switches. Tornadus cannot do shit to Jirachi, ever, and with Wish, Jirachi can switch in infinitely. I see no way on earth that Tornadus will ever come out on top against a Jirachi. Ever.
@ shrang:
Yeah, I guess Specially Defensive Zapdos would counter Tornadus, since even HP Ice fails to 2HKO (and ya know, STAB Thunderbolt in return). And it also has a niche in completely walling Scizor. But with stuff like Thundurus running around, would Specially Defensive Zapdos even be viable? I'm open to listen, but I'm skeptical.
