hit me up Patolegend - I'm in the ou room
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OU Theorymon (Check Post #173)
- Thread starter Isa Simple
- Start date
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Hey The Immortal, I just had a match with Salemance, and it didn't let him pick thousand arrow sandslash, I think it said that it wasn't released.
I'm up for a match today
I haven't been following this project but from the looks of it, Braviary is quite possibly S rank material or at least A+. Espeed is absolute gold. CB Espeed takes out almost every offensive threat that is faster and doesn't resist, bypasses +1 Priorities and Braviary has incredible wall breaking power considering it's high attack, STAB Brave Bird, Super Power and even U-Turn. BU Silk Scarf and CB sets seem strong af in theory.
Moxie Weavile might be somewhat overrated with so much priority around (Pangoro/Braviary/Entei) but idk since I haven't played.
Also, I don't understand the Entei hype. It's basically the same unless your opponent decides to switch in an Intimidate user or decides to Defog. Entei isn't even reliable at all vs Offensive defogers since it just dies to Draco. Not to mention high quality spinners such as Starmie and Excadrill exist.
Moxie Weavile might be somewhat overrated with so much priority around (Pangoro/Braviary/Entei) but idk since I haven't played.
Also, I don't understand the Entei hype. It's basically the same unless your opponent decides to switch in an Intimidate user or decides to Defog. Entei isn't even reliable at all vs Offensive defogers since it just dies to Draco. Not to mention high quality spinners such as Starmie and Excadrill exist.
I have been considering moving Braviary up but haven't got around to testing it yet. Though I was thinking more A or A-. Braviary is still faced with the problem of having both its STABs walled by Rock and Steel types, and they generally either have sky high defences or a secondary typing that resists Superpower. So there are plenty of pokemon that easily check it, even if it nabs a Defiant boost. Skarmory and Jirachi exist, and also many new/buffed additions such as Bronzong, Mega Aggron, Mega Steelix, and Weezing all give Braviary trouble. That said though, I realise that the Bulk Up set has the potential to bypass many would be checks, so depending on how effective that is in testing it might go to A+. Nothing is certain yet.
Moxie Weavile is still easily one of the most reliable cleaners in the game. The combination of Pursuit and Ice Shard can be used to almost guarantee Moxie boosts on low health targets, at which point very few weakened pokemon want to switch in. Its great speed, dual STAB, priority and power leave little to be desired for its role. It is just too good at what it does to be any lower. If you want I can post a couple replays of it cleaning. Also Pangoro's Sucker Punch isn't necessarily a full stop to Weavile.
As for Entei. I never thought it would be as good as it ended up being. However Entei may not have the best match up ever vs offensive Defoggers like Latis and Moltres, it is just so powerful after a Defiant boost that it pretty much invalidates the moves Defog. Yeah it has to be careful switching into Latios, but if Latios uses Defog and Entei gets the boost, it can often mean gg. There is a lot more pressure on the Defogger than on Entei. Also Entei just completely destroys most defensive Defoggers like Skarm. The only real reliable Entei checks after Entei absorbs a Defog are Rhyperior and Quagsire, both of which are deleted by Natural Gift + Liechi Berry Entei. Entei also does greatly in the meta due to the other new additions, matching up nicely vs many, and having great synergy with others. Entei fits perfectly onto spikes stacking offense, being pretty much a staple mon, and this play style is far more effective with the addition of Prankster Froslass. Mega Absol is also a great partner for Entei as it can bring Entei in on defoggers better with Parting Shot, and invalidates the Latis as threats.
Tl;dr
I agree that Braviary should move up, but not to S. Any of the As sound reasonable.
Weavile is just so incredibly good at its role of late game cleaner that it is deserving of A+.
Entei is just so stupid after a Defiant boost that pressing Defog vs a team with Entei, regardless of whether or not your Defogger can beat Entei, is still a massive gamble. Entei also matches up nicely against and with many other Theorymons.
Added:
+ Fairy / Ground Typing
+ Protean
The Immortal
Discuss Preliminary rankings for these, as well as Braviary, Pangoro and Mega Steelix possibly moving up.
Will post more on Panda and Lix later.
The Immortal
Discuss Preliminary rankings for these, as well as Braviary, Pangoro and Mega Steelix possibly moving up.
Will post more on Panda and Lix later.
I think that Protean hydregion should be A+ at MINIMUM, and Donphan should be like B+.
Protean hydregion doesn't need all that much explaining, cause it can freakin 2hko or ohko ALL OF THE UBERS AND OU (with stealth rock up.) i mean, bulky mega scizor can live the hit, but still takes almost 50%. the original stall-b-gone
going on my gut feeling the elephant is b to b+ material. he's really amazing after RP, but before that he's not at his best.
Protean hydregion doesn't need all that much explaining, cause it can freakin 2hko or ohko ALL OF THE UBERS AND OU (with stealth rock up.) i mean, bulky mega scizor can live the hit, but still takes almost 50%. the original stall-b-gone
going on my gut feeling the elephant is b to b+ material. he's really amazing after RP, but before that he's not at his best.
B rankings seem about alright for Donphan since he is something that looks to be intriguing to test at one point or another soon.
Hydreigon is gonna be smashing stuff like alot of other stuff....A+ seems okay but its probably gonna be a pain to fight at all times.
Also, anyone interested in battling a bit tomorrow? Love to test the new stuff and gauge it bit better.
Hydreigon is gonna be smashing stuff like alot of other stuff....A+ seems okay but its probably gonna be a pain to fight at all times.
Also, anyone interested in battling a bit tomorrow? Love to test the new stuff and gauge it bit better.
Alright so here's the stuff I wanna talk about atm:
Hydreigon: This thing is beyond scary and I question the sanity of those who voted it in. But yeah, A+ definitely seems fitting initially, testing may even prove for it to be S or broken. We'll see how detrimental its speed ends up being.
Donphan: Rock Polish is what I believe to be its selling point, which would put it somewhere is the Bs. How good its Rock Polish set is and how much value the defensive sets hold will decide how high in the Bs though.
Braviary: Discussed that it should move up recently. Defiant aside, banded E-Speed is epic, and should push it into As. I believe that the Sub Bulk Up set also has the potential to push past most of Braviary's common checks, which if confirmed will likely put Braviary into A+. Has anyone used either Braviary set in OU or a lower tier?
Mega Steelix: Been testing a bit and it no doubt deserves to be in the As, just not sure how high. Ground STAB allows it to hit many things it traps super effectively, and due to its immense weight, Heavy Slam almost always has epic power. Its sky high Defence and nice Attack allows it to beat almost any physical attacker 1v1. Dragon Tail is extremely hard to deal with and work around, and Explosion eliminates anything that resists its STABs (outside Skarm and Shed).
Pangoro: Also been testing lately. I think the Sub Punch set is enough to push the panda into B-. Sucker Punch and Focus Punch are arguably the two best moves in the game to be firing off from behind subs, and Pangoro gets STAB on both of them. Plus you have Iron Fists to push Focus Punch to stupid levels. The threat of a Sucker Punch also makes for Sub opportunities. Gunk Shot and Parting Shot are both great fillers, with the former hitting fairies, and the latter in combination with Sub being epic for bringing in sweepers/cleaners.
Just for show.
252+ Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Pangoro Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 178-211 (45.1 - 53.5%) -- 91% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Hydreigon: This thing is beyond scary and I question the sanity of those who voted it in. But yeah, A+ definitely seems fitting initially, testing may even prove for it to be S or broken. We'll see how detrimental its speed ends up being.
Donphan: Rock Polish is what I believe to be its selling point, which would put it somewhere is the Bs. How good its Rock Polish set is and how much value the defensive sets hold will decide how high in the Bs though.
Braviary: Discussed that it should move up recently. Defiant aside, banded E-Speed is epic, and should push it into As. I believe that the Sub Bulk Up set also has the potential to push past most of Braviary's common checks, which if confirmed will likely put Braviary into A+. Has anyone used either Braviary set in OU or a lower tier?
Mega Steelix: Been testing a bit and it no doubt deserves to be in the As, just not sure how high. Ground STAB allows it to hit many things it traps super effectively, and due to its immense weight, Heavy Slam almost always has epic power. Its sky high Defence and nice Attack allows it to beat almost any physical attacker 1v1. Dragon Tail is extremely hard to deal with and work around, and Explosion eliminates anything that resists its STABs (outside Skarm and Shed).
Pangoro: Also been testing lately. I think the Sub Punch set is enough to push the panda into B-. Sucker Punch and Focus Punch are arguably the two best moves in the game to be firing off from behind subs, and Pangoro gets STAB on both of them. Plus you have Iron Fists to push Focus Punch to stupid levels. The threat of a Sucker Punch also makes for Sub opportunities. Gunk Shot and Parting Shot are both great fillers, with the former hitting fairies, and the latter in combination with Sub being epic for bringing in sweepers/cleaners.
Just for show.
252+ Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Pangoro Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 178-211 (45.1 - 53.5%) -- 91% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Hey, where's non-mega absol in the rankings? with parting shot, its extremely useful to have as a setup mon for your sweeper. plus, there isn't the steep cost of its mega form. It could be extremely good in conjunction with things like shift gear SD lucario, ^^subpunch Pangoro, bulk up bravery, and more.
Never even considered regular Absol tbh. Its still completely outclassed by its mega though ain't it? And that is only B- atm as it is. I suppose somewhere between D and C could be reasonable?
Hi a few quick comments on the VR rankings.
Maybe move Braviary up to like A-. STAB ESpeed, the Flying-Fighting combo to deal solid damage outside of that, and good utility options make it a solid pick. Might want to lower Staraptor a rank or two because Braviary is serious competition if not straight outclassing it.
Archeops could probably rise as well. Taunt+Roost, Hone Claws + 3 attacks, Banded... it has a lot of options. 110 base speed, enough attack, and Rock STAB is so dangerous.
Kyurem and Kyurem-B are equals in my eyes. Strong Ice STAB vs Electric coverage is probably breaking even, and that's without even taking into account Outrage to break down other fat things. But Fusion Bolt is huge for breaking down fat Water types.
Entei may be a little high in A+. As opposed to Bish, who resists Rocks, Entei takes a ton of damage in scenarios where teams trade Rocks and then try to remove them after. I also think Bisharp's STAB priority is a little better than ESpeed due to actually hitting some things super effectively.
Looks great outside of that, except why is Metagross A that makes no sense to me 0_0
Maybe move Braviary up to like A-. STAB ESpeed, the Flying-Fighting combo to deal solid damage outside of that, and good utility options make it a solid pick. Might want to lower Staraptor a rank or two because Braviary is serious competition if not straight outclassing it.
Archeops could probably rise as well. Taunt+Roost, Hone Claws + 3 attacks, Banded... it has a lot of options. 110 base speed, enough attack, and Rock STAB is so dangerous.
Kyurem and Kyurem-B are equals in my eyes. Strong Ice STAB vs Electric coverage is probably breaking even, and that's without even taking into account Outrage to break down other fat things. But Fusion Bolt is huge for breaking down fat Water types.
Entei may be a little high in A+. As opposed to Bish, who resists Rocks, Entei takes a ton of damage in scenarios where teams trade Rocks and then try to remove them after. I also think Bisharp's STAB priority is a little better than ESpeed due to actually hitting some things super effectively.
Looks great outside of that, except why is Metagross A that makes no sense to me 0_0
So, this metagame is challenge-only?
Yes, sadly it is challenge-only.
Will implement most of these later.
I'm still hesitant to drop Entei so I'll try test it a bit more.
As for Mega Metagross. It gains a lot more checks and counters in this meta game.
Counters include Weezing, Moltres (Defensive), Mega Steelix*** (Traps and removes), Rotom-S, Mega Aggron, Forretress, and Bronzong.
Cacturne, Mega Beedrill, Pangoro, Mega Absol, Scarf Hydreigon, Weavile, Scarf Porygon Z, and Sandslash (in sand) can all revenge Mega Meta. Mega Metagross gets murdered by any Sand Sweeper actually, and sand is one of the strongest play styles with the many buffs its received.
Basically its checks and counters are far more spashable and wide spread, its also a major draw back to have your mega so easily removed by Mega Steelix.
There is a chance of it going to A+ but idk.
I wouldn't say that its trapped easily by Steelix, Hammer Arm is a 3HKO on Steelix and Steelix 2HKOs with Earthquake. Even after two HA drops Gross is still faster so again, I wouldn't say easily removed.
True there are more checks I guess but Metagross has never really been an issue for more defensive teams. Stall and balanced have been able to utilize Skarm, Garchomp, Slowbro / Slowking and the like to deal with Gross. Most of the answers you named such as PDef Moltres, Weezing, and all the Steels fit on those types of teams. While its true the second string of mons are all capable revenge killers, regular OU isn't exactly lacking in revenge killers either. The problem with Gross is that its bulk, coverage, and speed are at such a level that offensive teams have difficulty with reliable counterplay, and I don't think we've exactly introduced anything to mitigate that problem at all really.
Your call of course but I just felt that I should make it clear that my viewpoint Gross isn't where it is because of a lack of counters or anything.
True there are more checks I guess but Metagross has never really been an issue for more defensive teams. Stall and balanced have been able to utilize Skarm, Garchomp, Slowbro / Slowking and the like to deal with Gross. Most of the answers you named such as PDef Moltres, Weezing, and all the Steels fit on those types of teams. While its true the second string of mons are all capable revenge killers, regular OU isn't exactly lacking in revenge killers either. The problem with Gross is that its bulk, coverage, and speed are at such a level that offensive teams have difficulty with reliable counterplay, and I don't think we've exactly introduced anything to mitigate that problem at all really.
Your call of course but I just felt that I should make it clear that my viewpoint Gross isn't where it is because of a lack of counters or anything.
I should have specified as I realise that the calc set has max HP and max SpD, but on Mega Steelix I generally run max HP and max Atk, as it is far more efficient at removing what you want it to. So the calc I was going off was this:
252+ Atk Mega Steelix Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Mega Metagross: 272-324 (90.3 - 107.6%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
I see what you're getting at, and you're largely correct but I think that offence has gained enough tools to form decent counter play to Gross.
5 Dark types have been buffed all 5 of which fit well onto offense, and can revenge Mega Meta with either speed or priority. These are all Situational Switch Ins as they can of course come in on Zen Headbutt.
Spikes stacking offense is far stronger with Froslass and Forretress running around, making Mega Meta easier to wear down and remove. Forretress Spikes Stacking offense in particular is really strong because Forretress is used to check common threats to offense like Keldeo and of course Mega Meta itself.
The next biggest addition to the offensive field is Sand Offense, where Mega Meta can't beat any of its sweepers 1v1. If fact with Sand active, Sandslash is a guaranteed switch in to Mega Meta.
As previously stated Balance and Stall also have far more checks and counters.
Basically I understand because Mega Meta still is really good, but I think that given that each archetype has become noticeably better at dealing with it, the Viability Rankings should reflect that. Considering Mega Metagross came really close to dropping to A+ in standard OU for things as simple as the rise of Tank Chomp, I think these changes can warrant a drop to A.
Okay, so. Protean Hydreigon. What the fuck, people.
Hydreigon has on the order of 20 viable attacking moves, both physical and special, across a multitude of types. The things that it really has trouble with are bulky pure Water-types (Suicune, Manaphy, Milotic). Everything else can be made dead with the proper move.
Figure out what Pokemon your team needs to be able to hit, load up Hydreigon with the right moves, and watch it go to work. Seriously, lemme take a gander at the Good Cores thread over in the OU forums and find Hydreigon sets that can be tailored to defeat it.
It's a shame that I got bored not too long before the end, but you see my point here: Defensive teams very nearly cannot EVER assume that anything can stay in on Hydreigon. Just picking four between Fire Blast, Earth Power, Flash Cannon, Dark Pulse, and Surf lets Hydreigon blast apart many cores; good candidates for expanding the set would include Zen Headbutt, Superpower, and Head Smash.
If it can do this to dedicated defensive Pokemon, imagine what Hydreigon can do to various tanks. The only playstyle that doesn't reliably take massive damage from a well-played Protean Hydreigon is fast offensive teams -- which, of course, have to fear Choice Scarf. It doesn't have the defense-annihilating power of Life Orb, certainly, but it seems like it would be an exceptionally good scarfer, never having to be trapped in a "coverage" move.
Oh, and it has 92/90/90 bulk, so don't assume you can just pick it off with a weak move -- it might resist that!
TL;DR Hydreigon is bullshit, in my IMO.
Hydreigon has on the order of 20 viable attacking moves, both physical and special, across a multitude of types. The things that it really has trouble with are bulky pure Water-types (Suicune, Manaphy, Milotic). Everything else can be made dead with the proper move.
Figure out what Pokemon your team needs to be able to hit, load up Hydreigon with the right moves, and watch it go to work. Seriously, lemme take a gander at the Good Cores thread over in the OU forums and find Hydreigon sets that can be tailored to defeat it.
252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Slowbro: 398-471 (101 - 119.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Hydreigon Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 520-614 (135 - 159.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Hydreigon Flash Cannon vs. 248 HP / 76 SpD Mega Altaria: 296-351 (83.8 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Hydreigon Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 520-614 (135 - 159.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Hydreigon Flash Cannon vs. 248 HP / 76 SpD Mega Altaria: 296-351 (83.8 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Hydreigon Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 192+ SpD Heatran: 546-645 (141.8 - 167.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Hydreigon Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 198-234 (54.3 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Hydreigon Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 198-234 (54.3 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 24 SpD Slowbro: 390-460 (98.9 - 116.7%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Hydreigon Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 702-827 (199.4 - 234.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Hydreigon Surf vs. 244 HP / 192+ SpD Gliscor: 343-406 (97.4 - 115.3%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Hydreigon Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 702-827 (199.4 - 234.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Hydreigon Surf vs. 244 HP / 192+ SpD Gliscor: 343-406 (97.4 - 115.3%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 330-393 (81.6 - 97.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Hydreigon Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 84 SpD Clefable: 330-390 (83.7 - 98.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Hydreigon Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 192+ SpD Heatran: 546-645 (141.8 - 167.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Hydreigon Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 84 SpD Clefable: 330-390 (83.7 - 98.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Hydreigon Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 192+ SpD Heatran: 546-645 (141.8 - 167.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 80 SpD Mega Slowbro: 361-429 (91.6 - 108.8%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Hydreigon Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 520-614 (135 - 159.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Hydreigon Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Chesnaught: 572-678 (150.5 - 178.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Hydreigon Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 520-614 (135 - 159.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Hydreigon Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Chesnaught: 572-678 (150.5 - 178.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Hydreigon Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Chesnaught: 572-678 (150.5 - 178.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Hydreigon Earth Power vs. 212 HP / 0 SpD Rhyperior: 601-710 (141.7 - 167.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Hydreigon Earth Power vs. 212 HP / 0 SpD Rhyperior: 601-710 (141.7 - 167.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 SpA Life Orb Protean Hydreigon Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Skarmory: 502-593 (150.7 - 178%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Protean Hydreigon Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 580-686 (82.3 - 97.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Superpower's Attack drop means you can switch around on Hydreigon a little to try and bait stuff out, but even if it wastes one Superpower, -1 Superpower + -2 Superpower still usually KOs Chansey, if they chose physical investment.
-1 252 Atk Life Orb Protean Hydreigon Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 390-460 (55.3 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-2 252 Atk Life Orb Protean Hydreigon Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 291-346 (41.3 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Protean Hydreigon Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 580-686 (82.3 - 97.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Superpower's Attack drop means you can switch around on Hydreigon a little to try and bait stuff out, but even if it wastes one Superpower, -1 Superpower + -2 Superpower still usually KOs Chansey, if they chose physical investment.
-1 252 Atk Life Orb Protean Hydreigon Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 390-460 (55.3 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-2 252 Atk Life Orb Protean Hydreigon Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 291-346 (41.3 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Hydreigon really does struggle with this core, primarily because two problem 'mons in Manaphy and Mega Sableye. However, if Manaphy sets up rain as described, then you have a chance.
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Hydreigon Surf vs. 248 HP / 96+ SpD Mega Sableye in Rain: 208-246 (68.6 - 81.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO << Beware of Metal Burst, but it's sure as hell not switching in.
The most generally useful move that can be used against Manaphy is Focus Blast, which 2HKOs (if it hits), and has a 75% chance to do so even if Manaphy sets up a Calm Mind on the first one. Charge Beam is an option to pretty reliably 2HKO while boosting yourself up, but this is less generally good coverage.
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Hydreigon Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 250-294 (61.8 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Hydreigon Charge Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 211-250 (52.2 - 61.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Life Orb Protean Hydreigon Zen Headbutt vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Amoonguss: 312-369 (72.3 - 85.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Hydreigon Surf vs. 248 HP / 96+ SpD Mega Sableye in Rain: 208-246 (68.6 - 81.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO << Beware of Metal Burst, but it's sure as hell not switching in.
The most generally useful move that can be used against Manaphy is Focus Blast, which 2HKOs (if it hits), and has a 75% chance to do so even if Manaphy sets up a Calm Mind on the first one. Charge Beam is an option to pretty reliably 2HKO while boosting yourself up, but this is less generally good coverage.
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Hydreigon Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 250-294 (61.8 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Hydreigon Charge Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 211-250 (52.2 - 61.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Life Orb Protean Hydreigon Zen Headbutt vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Amoonguss: 312-369 (72.3 - 85.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 80 SpD Mega Slowbro: 361-429 (91.6 - 108.8%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Hydreigon Surf vs. 244 HP / 192+ SpD Gliscor: 343-406 (97.4 - 115.3%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Hydreigon Surf vs. 244 HP / 192+ SpD Gliscor: 343-406 (97.4 - 115.3%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
This one also requires a , and is risky for Hydreigon to take on by itself, but if you need something to handle this pair...
252 Atk Life Orb Protean Hydreigon Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 242-285 (61.4 - 72.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Protean Hydreigon Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Sableye: 227-269 (74.6 - 88.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO << Watch out for Metal Burst though.
252 Atk Life Orb Protean Hydreigon Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 242-285 (61.4 - 72.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Protean Hydreigon Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Sableye: 227-269 (74.6 - 88.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO << Watch out for Metal Burst though.
252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. +1 248 HP / 220+ SpD Mega Slowbro: 190-226 (48.3 - 57.5%) -- 93.4% chance to 2HKO (Clean 2HKO if they don't get a Calm Mind under their belt)
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Hydreigon Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 330-390 (81.8 - 96.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Hydreigon Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 12 SpD Heatran: 702-832 (181.8 - 215.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Hydreigon Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 330-390 (81.8 - 96.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Hydreigon Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 12 SpD Heatran: 702-832 (181.8 - 215.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Hydreigon Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 214-253 (51 - 60.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
OR 252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Dragon Pulse vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 400-476 (95.4 - 113.6%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Hydreigon Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 28 SpD Tentacruel: 312-369 (85.9 - 101.6%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Hydreigon Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn in Rain: 348-411 (98.8 - 116.7%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
OR 252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Dragon Pulse vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 400-476 (95.4 - 113.6%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Hydreigon Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 28 SpD Tentacruel: 312-369 (85.9 - 101.6%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Hydreigon Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn in Rain: 348-411 (98.8 - 116.7%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Hydreigon Fire Blast vs. 232 HP / 4 SpD Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 198-234 (55.1 - 65.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Hydreigon Flash Cannon vs. +1 252 HP / 72+ SpD Clefable: 203-242 (51.5 - 61.4%) -- 92.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery << Fire Blast 2HKOs if it doesn't have any Calm Minds up.
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Hydreigon Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 192+ SpD Heatran: 546-645 (141.8 - 167.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Hydreigon Flash Cannon vs. +1 252 HP / 72+ SpD Clefable: 203-242 (51.5 - 61.4%) -- 92.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery << Fire Blast 2HKOs if it doesn't have any Calm Minds up.
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Hydreigon Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 192+ SpD Heatran: 546-645 (141.8 - 167.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
It's a shame that I got bored not too long before the end, but you see my point here: Defensive teams very nearly cannot EVER assume that anything can stay in on Hydreigon. Just picking four between Fire Blast, Earth Power, Flash Cannon, Dark Pulse, and Surf lets Hydreigon blast apart many cores; good candidates for expanding the set would include Zen Headbutt, Superpower, and Head Smash.
If it can do this to dedicated defensive Pokemon, imagine what Hydreigon can do to various tanks. The only playstyle that doesn't reliably take massive damage from a well-played Protean Hydreigon is fast offensive teams -- which, of course, have to fear Choice Scarf. It doesn't have the defense-annihilating power of Life Orb, certainly, but it seems like it would be an exceptionally good scarfer, never having to be trapped in a "coverage" move.
Oh, and it has 92/90/90 bulk, so don't assume you can just pick it off with a weak move -- it might resist that!
TL;DR Hydreigon is bullshit, in my IMO.
Updates:
C+ ---> B-
B+ ---> A
B+ ---> A-
Unranked ---> B
B ---> B+
B+ ---> A+
A- ---> A+
Not moving Entei or Mega Metagross as of yet but I'm happy for discussion on them to continue.
Also considering Hydreigon for S as its just completely annihilates stall.
EDIT: Just realised that Mega Metagross just moved to A+ in standard OU, and as it is noticeably more manageable in this meta, I would rather it stayed in A.
Not moving Entei or Mega Metagross as of yet but I'm happy for discussion on them to continue.
Also considering Hydreigon for S as its just completely annihilates stall.
EDIT: Just realised that Mega Metagross just moved to A+ in standard OU, and as it is noticeably more manageable in this meta, I would rather it stayed in A.
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The Immortal the format is still not updated with Protean Hydreigon. I'm not sure about Ground / Fairy Donphan.
I've been testing them a bit but my PS was being weird and only let me save the one replay, thankfully it shows both off really well.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/outheorymon-255324961
Taking this and my other games into account I've learned two things:
Protean Hydreigon + Tailwind support from Gale Wings Swanna is as ridiculously powerful as it sounds. Like, holy shit.
Ground / Fairy Donphan is actually really hard to switch into and even stronger than I anticipated. It has all the tools to be not just an effective Rock Polish user, but a really effective Rock Polish user. It has just enough speed, perfect neutral coverage between its STABs and Knock Off, nice Defence, Sturdy, and 2 nice immunities. Nice :)
EDIT: OMG 400th POST TAGGING ALL MY FRIENDS!!!
... fml
Huh, performed really damn well there actually. Looks to be a fun addition. Hydreigon on the other hand is requiring so much revenge killing there that its not even funny.
How does Frost Breath works under the effect of Technician?
I mean, does it receives the boost and then results in a crit, reaching a 135 BP, or it doesn't receive the boost since it results always in a crit?
I'm asking this because I was about to suggest this set:
Abomasnow @ Abomasite
Ability: Snow Warning -> Technician
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
IVs: 0 Spe
Quiet Nature
- Frost Breath
- Giga Drain
- Hidden Power [Rock]
- Leech Seed / Water Pulse
Frost Breat ignores every kind of boost to defenses and, if it works as I think, it can reach a BP of 135 (60 BP+Technician=90 BP*1.5 (crit)=135 BP)+STAB, ergo, much more powerful than a simple Blizzard, but without the small chance of freezing the opponent and with 90% accuracy. With a Trick Room team this Pokemon can be really amazing as he doesn't fears statuppers.
I mean, does it receives the boost and then results in a crit, reaching a 135 BP, or it doesn't receive the boost since it results always in a crit?
I'm asking this because I was about to suggest this set:
Abomasnow @ Abomasite
Ability: Snow Warning -> Technician
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
IVs: 0 Spe
Quiet Nature
- Frost Breath
- Giga Drain
- Hidden Power [Rock]
- Leech Seed / Water Pulse
Frost Breat ignores every kind of boost to defenses and, if it works as I think, it can reach a BP of 135 (60 BP+Technician=90 BP*1.5 (crit)=135 BP)+STAB, ergo, much more powerful than a simple Blizzard, but without the small chance of freezing the opponent and with 90% accuracy. With a Trick Room team this Pokemon can be really amazing as he doesn't fears statuppers.
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