Yes, but I'm talking about which one move would be most benificial to lightningrod Zapdos
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Zapdos
- Thread starter Colonel M
- Start date
Zapdos learns Roost by level-up, so that wouldn't be necessary. That's the reason it can use it with Lightningrod anyway, since Roost isn't a TM anymore. From that list, Heat Wave is still the most useful to hit Nattorei and still hits Celebi hard enough, which is the biggest reason to use Signal Beam.
I have thoght of a set that looks like this:
zapdos@life orb
modest,max sp attack,250 speed(56 evs),and 371 hp(200 evs)
-agility
-thunder
-hp ice
-roost
This set is designed for uber play and it needs rain support which kyogre easily provides.Zapdos can easily come in and absorb one of the many thunders that fly around while boosting it's sp.attack to a monstrous 574.Then use agility on the switch taking your speed to 500(outspeeding scarfchomp,a common scarfer in ubers).Then you can easily sweep with the sp.attack boost,the high power of thunder and the coverage provided by hp ice!All kyogre,skymin,garchomp,salamence,palkia,rayquaza,lugia,ho-oh,genosect,scizor,metagross and manaphy are ohkod by the right move!!!specially defensive jirachi can barely survive 1 thunder and can do nothing in return(except maybe toxic,which is not common at all).Only pokes that resist or are immune to thunder(and of course blissey)can hope to beat you...For example mewtwo needs to have max hp and a lot of sp.def. evs to survive a thunder without sr... darkrai must be scarfed to check zapdos and can only neuter him with dark void since it doesn's ohko zapdos with any other move and is ohkod in return... scarf timid skymin can't revenge kill if zapdos has more than half hp cause skymin's hp ice deals 160-189 damage to zapdos who can easily roost back and reach enough health to avoid being killed by the next move and ko in return...hp ice deals 348-410 damage to groudon so it ohkoes with one layer of spikes(assuming min sp.defence which is the most usual case since groudon almost always invests in hp and defence to take care of physical threats)!zekrom takes 318-376 from hp ice with 0 sp.def. so it's an ohko if spikes or sr is up!support dialga althought resisting thunder can be taken care of if it's attacks are a combination of thunder/draco meteor/fire blast/aura sphere since zapdos can survive a max powered draco meteor from dialga(without life orb)and proceed to steadily kill it with a combination of thunder and roost since dialga doesn't have recovery(except sleeptalk)and you can easily take thunder(immune),aura sphere(resistant) and fire blast(resistant due to rain).but if the above dialga has dragon pulse it will eventually ko you since dragon pulse does more than 50% and cannot be stalled out...specs and resttalk dialga own u so that's 2 counters... giratina-o can be easily killed by 2 hp ice but it's not always so easy...if it's a calm mind variant then you must hp ice for the 2hko,but if it is a mixed attacker it will ko you with a combination of draco meteor and shadow sneak if it uses the standart spread.The counters that are left are blissey(althought if it lacks toxic it is a stall war which you might win if parahax happens to blissey), latias/latios(they can take an hp ice and then kill you with draco meteor),arceus(is there any poke that isn't countered by arceus,depending by the type of arceus?),nattorei(that's one solid counter but it cannot really do anything to you except leech seed you) and reshiram,while the latter may also fall(it depends if the weather is in your favor or not and if it holds life orb or not)...
zapdos@life orb
modest,max sp attack,250 speed(56 evs),and 371 hp(200 evs)
-agility
-thunder
-hp ice
-roost
This set is designed for uber play and it needs rain support which kyogre easily provides.Zapdos can easily come in and absorb one of the many thunders that fly around while boosting it's sp.attack to a monstrous 574.Then use agility on the switch taking your speed to 500(outspeeding scarfchomp,a common scarfer in ubers).Then you can easily sweep with the sp.attack boost,the high power of thunder and the coverage provided by hp ice!All kyogre,skymin,garchomp,salamence,palkia,rayquaza,lugia,ho-oh,genosect,scizor,metagross and manaphy are ohkod by the right move!!!specially defensive jirachi can barely survive 1 thunder and can do nothing in return(except maybe toxic,which is not common at all).Only pokes that resist or are immune to thunder(and of course blissey)can hope to beat you...For example mewtwo needs to have max hp and a lot of sp.def. evs to survive a thunder without sr... darkrai must be scarfed to check zapdos and can only neuter him with dark void since it doesn's ohko zapdos with any other move and is ohkod in return... scarf timid skymin can't revenge kill if zapdos has more than half hp cause skymin's hp ice deals 160-189 damage to zapdos who can easily roost back and reach enough health to avoid being killed by the next move and ko in return...hp ice deals 348-410 damage to groudon so it ohkoes with one layer of spikes(assuming min sp.defence which is the most usual case since groudon almost always invests in hp and defence to take care of physical threats)!zekrom takes 318-376 from hp ice with 0 sp.def. so it's an ohko if spikes or sr is up!support dialga althought resisting thunder can be taken care of if it's attacks are a combination of thunder/draco meteor/fire blast/aura sphere since zapdos can survive a max powered draco meteor from dialga(without life orb)and proceed to steadily kill it with a combination of thunder and roost since dialga doesn't have recovery(except sleeptalk)and you can easily take thunder(immune),aura sphere(resistant) and fire blast(resistant due to rain).but if the above dialga has dragon pulse it will eventually ko you since dragon pulse does more than 50% and cannot be stalled out...specs and resttalk dialga own u so that's 2 counters... giratina-o can be easily killed by 2 hp ice but it's not always so easy...if it's a calm mind variant then you must hp ice for the 2hko,but if it is a mixed attacker it will ko you with a combination of draco meteor and shadow sneak if it uses the standart spread.The counters that are left are blissey(althought if it lacks toxic it is a stall war which you might win if parahax happens to blissey), latias/latios(they can take an hp ice and then kill you with draco meteor),arceus(is there any poke that isn't countered by arceus,depending by the type of arceus?),nattorei(that's one solid counter but it cannot really do anything to you except leech seed you) and reshiram,while the latter may also fall(it depends if the weather is in your favor or not and if it holds life orb or not)...
Uhm, dunno.
Anyway, by my opinion, Zapdos can be bulkier than never, thanks to Lightningrod.
Zapdos can switch on Thunder Wave or any Electric Attack and increase it SpA, thing that is really useful not only for take damage, also.
Normally, Zapdos take normal damage from Electric moves, so an immunity to these moves is very nice, and also is immune to Ground attacks.
Two immunities to two of the most common Types is Awesome.
Anyway, Zapdos also can have the two variations of Hit-n-Run moves, U-turn and Volt Change, and I think that the first is better. Why? well, simple: Volt Changes is locked by Ground-types, and nothing have immunity to Bug moves (except Shedinja).
Well, this set can be useful:
Item: Expert Belt.
Ability: Lightningrod.
Nature: Bold.
- Thunder / Discharge.
- Roost.
- U-turn.
- Hidden Power Fighting, Water or Ice.
This set have an almost perfect coverage, so Zapdos can be a great abuser of Expert Belt.
Thunder is stronger, but Discharge have more PP and better Accuracy, but both have a nice paralysis rate of 30% and STAB.
Combining these with Hidden Power Fighting or Water, you can destroy any non-Dragon-type, killing Skarmory with Discharge and Heatran with HP Fighting or Water.
However, Heatran take normal damage from Zapdos' Electric attacks, so you can run with HP Ice to kill Dragons.
HP Water also can kill Ground- and Fire-types.
Roost is nice, but care off from perfectly predicted Earthquakes.
U-turn is the best escape method of Zapdos, Volt Change is Special and have STAB, but is locked by PKMN with immunity to Electric Moves.
See You.
Anyway, by my opinion, Zapdos can be bulkier than never, thanks to Lightningrod.
Zapdos can switch on Thunder Wave or any Electric Attack and increase it SpA, thing that is really useful not only for take damage, also.
Normally, Zapdos take normal damage from Electric moves, so an immunity to these moves is very nice, and also is immune to Ground attacks.
Two immunities to two of the most common Types is Awesome.
Anyway, Zapdos also can have the two variations of Hit-n-Run moves, U-turn and Volt Change, and I think that the first is better. Why? well, simple: Volt Changes is locked by Ground-types, and nothing have immunity to Bug moves (except Shedinja).
Well, this set can be useful:
Item: Expert Belt.
Ability: Lightningrod.
Nature: Bold.
- Thunder / Discharge.
- Roost.
- U-turn.
- Hidden Power Fighting, Water or Ice.
This set have an almost perfect coverage, so Zapdos can be a great abuser of Expert Belt.
Thunder is stronger, but Discharge have more PP and better Accuracy, but both have a nice paralysis rate of 30% and STAB.
Combining these with Hidden Power Fighting or Water, you can destroy any non-Dragon-type, killing Skarmory with Discharge and Heatran with HP Fighting or Water.
However, Heatran take normal damage from Zapdos' Electric attacks, so you can run with HP Ice to kill Dragons.
HP Water also can kill Ground- and Fire-types.
Roost is nice, but care off from perfectly predicted Earthquakes.
U-turn is the best escape method of Zapdos, Volt Change is Special and have STAB, but is locked by PKMN with immunity to Electric Moves.
See You.
Signal Beam is illegal with Lightningrod, since it's a Gen IV tutor move. Why does hitting Celebi and Scizor matter at all...? Both are fairly rare in Gen V (Celebi especially - I think I've only seen a single one this gen, actually). And I suppose that STAB Hidden Power is better than nothing. I prefer HP Ice for the classic pseudo-BoltBeam coverage, though.
My stance on Lightningrod Zapdos: I tried it out once, but it has a really pathetic movepool. The offensive moves you get to choose from are basically TBolt, Volt Change, and a Hidden Power (maybe Ancientpower or Ominous Wind if you want to get really gimmicky). I'm hoping it'll eventually get Heat Wave, when it's released.
So now that Thundrus is Ubers, does anybody anticipate Zapdos' usage will rise in OU?
You gotta be kidding saying scizor and celebi are rare..They are...Everywhere???
Celebi is a hard counter to the ever present Rotom-W and Scizor to many things, such as Reuniclus, Terakion, Ferro...
True, although Scizor can't hurt Zapdos and doesn't like Thunderbolt anyway. Celebi may switch expecting you to Heat Wave, so T-bolting on their first meeting isn't a horrible idea in some situations. HP Flying is a good option on Lightningrod, more so if your other team members have a few Ice moves already.
Celebi's pretty scarce in DW.
Zapdos, Breloom, Serperior, & Genesect pretty much made Rotom-W a very average DW OU Pokemon compared to Standard. (Rotom-W is #37 in DW usage) Choice Volt Switch is just asking to get railed by Zapdos. Giving Breloom or Serperior a free switch-in, Choiced or not, is one of the biggest mistakes you can make. And Genesect just entirely outclasses Rotom with the Choice set and has amazing coverage options. They don't have the same typing of course but having 2 Scarf Pokemon on the team gets very limiting and easily played around.
Give Zapdos a partner that deals with Ferrothorn for it and Zapdos with Thunder, HP Ice, Roost, Filler works perfectly.
Honestly Zapdos' main problem this gen wasn't really competition from thundurus, the two have VERY different roles. The biggest problem zapdos faces this gen is simply the massive power creep. While excadrill may be banned there are still outrageously powerful attackers in the tier like haxorous latios and volcorana and zap's defenses simply do not cut it now. As for offensive sets... he's walled by tyranitar who's the most common pokemon in OU so yeah.... I don't see his tiering changing unless he gets something like aura sphere from dream world and even then. What a shame.
Everyone seems to be ignoring Zapdos' bulk. Part of what makes Zapdos so good is his ability to fill such a wide variety of roles. Personally, I think I'll be going with the SubRoost set if I ever use him in Gen V, which is a distinct possibility now that the other good Electric/Flying type is gone. He may not be able to wall as well as he used to, but PP/Toxic Stalling is still relatively easy with his 100 base Speed.
The post above you sort of went over his bulk already and how it's not enough.
Ah well, when I get the chance, I'll try it out in OU anyways.
Zapdos apparently doesn't cut it anymore. Reuniclus, Conkeldurr, Virizion, and DDNite does bulky offense better. Even with Thundurus gone, Zapdos will still struggle to shine with its ordinary Speed and ordinary bulk. There's also a lot more threats that can wall Zapdos this gen, namely Latias, Gastrodon, Quagsire, and specially-defensive TTar (an uncommon sight in DPP).
If you want to use Zapdos for specially defensive purposes, you're better off using Latias for soaking up Fire, Water, Grass, and Electric moves and Jirachi for soaking up Flying and Dragon moves. Until Zapdos gains LightningRod to add an ELECTRIC IMMUNITY to its distinct pool of resistances, it's also outclassed in the defensive department, imo.
Feel free to prove me wrong, though. If you're looking for a Thundurus replacement, Rash Raikou with Aura Sphere does it better, letting it have a chance against Ttar. Even then nothing does electric special sweep quite efficiently as Thundurus (miss you :/)
If you want to use Zapdos for specially defensive purposes, you're better off using Latias for soaking up Fire, Water, Grass, and Electric moves and Jirachi for soaking up Flying and Dragon moves. Until Zapdos gains LightningRod to add an ELECTRIC IMMUNITY to its distinct pool of resistances, it's also outclassed in the defensive department, imo.
Feel free to prove me wrong, though. If you're looking for a Thundurus replacement, Rash Raikou with Aura Sphere does it better, letting it have a chance against Ttar. Even then nothing does electric special sweep quite efficiently as Thundurus (miss you :/)
Zapdos defensive niche is as a pp smaller. He can substitute up and completely stall out moves like Stone Edge and Fire Blast, then Roost off Substitute damage later. A Heatran without Fire Blast is all of a sudden much less threatening.
Honestly Zapdos is pretty much outclassed in an offensive role by Raikou since it has the ability to both boost and hit Steel-types in the rain thanks to Aura Sphere. It also has a trolly base Speed to tie with Starmie and outspeed most of the unboosted metagame. +1 Thunderbolt is nothing to scoff at, you know. However, it is definitely possible to use Zapdos in an offensive role. Just always use Roost - literally the only thing it has over Raikou is reliable recovery.
Regardless, the only real niche that Zapdos has right now is SubRoost. It's an excellent staller, and if you can Toxic Spikes on the ground beforehand it's a monster, since it has enough Speed to outpace a lot of threats, and you can always just Roost in their face. Sub / Roost / Tbolt / Toxic is probably the best though so you can clear up room for something other than Toxic Spikes, and it also lets you poison any Levitators, say Latias for example, allowing you to stall them out with damage from Thunderbolt as well as Toxic.
Regardless, the only real niche that Zapdos has right now is SubRoost. It's an excellent staller, and if you can Toxic Spikes on the ground beforehand it's a monster, since it has enough Speed to outpace a lot of threats, and you can always just Roost in their face. Sub / Roost / Tbolt / Toxic is probably the best though so you can clear up room for something other than Toxic Spikes, and it also lets you poison any Levitators, say Latias for example, allowing you to stall them out with damage from Thunderbolt as well as Toxic.
I don't see why there's all this hate toward offensive Zapdos. I've been using the standard set of Tbolt/ Heat Wave/ HP Ice/ Roost to amazing success, even with Thundurus around. And pocket, Durr and Reuniclus (unless it's OTR) are outsped by everything, while Zapdos outspeeds many, many threats even with a Modest nature. Base 100 isn't what it used to be, but it's nothing to scoff at. And while Roost may seem small, it also has the whole mind game in nullifying the Flyibg typing, while CM on Raikou is stopped by any physical attacker. I promise that it's much much better in practice than in theorymon. Seriously guys, embrace the bird. Zapdos for OU.
I'd hardly say and physical attacker stops Raikou. Once he hits +1, not many physical sweepers will want to take a hit, and they'll usually have to thanks to his fantastic base 115 speed. There are things that Zapdos has over Raikou (mainly Heat Wave and Roost), but Raikou is still probably a better electric sweeper.
he wrote this when it was dec 2010 lol
Well, at least he was right about Celebi, but iirc, Scizor always was incredibly popular O.o
lmao @ Raikou
Raikou is a sad, sad Pokemon. He's vulnerable to every entry hazard, no recovery, easily whittled-down by Sand, Entry Hazards, & Priority, any Ground-type with half decent defenses can take a +1 HP Ice from him, he's completely stopped by Gastrodon, out-sped by very common Pokemon (Rash) and dealt with very easily, SubCM is trashed by Tyranitar, *insert physical choice scarfer* beats him, Rotom-W Tricks him a Scarf & laughs, Landorus exists, Rash Nature for CM is god awful, need I go on?
CM Raikou sounds great on paper, but there's so much that just demolishes him in OU, especially condering that Landorus & Tyranitar come together meaning that no matter what CM set you choose, they have a hard counter to it. And even then if Landorus is Scarfed, you're screwed either way.
He's never going to be better than Zapdos as Zapdos has those awesome resistances & Roost to recover HP or just stall-out PP of a move. In fact, aside from shared STAB & resistance to Steel, there's nothing similar about them. Apples to oranges, guys.
Raikou is a sad, sad Pokemon. He's vulnerable to every entry hazard, no recovery, easily whittled-down by Sand, Entry Hazards, & Priority, any Ground-type with half decent defenses can take a +1 HP Ice from him, he's completely stopped by Gastrodon, out-sped by very common Pokemon (Rash) and dealt with very easily, SubCM is trashed by Tyranitar, *insert physical choice scarfer* beats him, Rotom-W Tricks him a Scarf & laughs, Landorus exists, Rash Nature for CM is god awful, need I go on?
CM Raikou sounds great on paper, but there's so much that just demolishes him in OU, especially condering that Landorus & Tyranitar come together meaning that no matter what CM set you choose, they have a hard counter to it. And even then if Landorus is Scarfed, you're screwed either way.
He's never going to be better than Zapdos as Zapdos has those awesome resistances & Roost to recover HP or just stall-out PP of a move. In fact, aside from shared STAB & resistance to Steel, there's nothing similar about them. Apples to oranges, guys.