-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Pokémon Yveltal
- Thread starter Fireburn
- Start date
- Status
Food for thought, Oblivion Wing heals 75% of damage combine that with big root you're healing 105% of damage! Just food for thought.
Factoring in Dark Aura and STAB, min Atk Yveltal with no hold item does 1% less than max Atk Absol and 10% less than max Atk dark Arceus, with sucker punch. These are rough calcs against an undefined target though. Still that's pretty telling.
Also http://www.serebii.net/pokedex-xy/717.shtml - movepool.
It's fine, you don't have to apologize.
The set you posted definitely puts things into perspective, but I’d argue that it still isn’t very optimal since it’s missing a crucial coverage move (Focus Blast). Your set is hard countered by Tyranitar, and isn’t capable of doing enough damage to the likes of Heatran and Ferrothorn. (and before you bust out the calcs, these are conditional checks when Yveltal is weakened or these Pokemon are brought in on the revenge kill). Defensive healers can also beat it fairly easily (Blissey, Chansey, SpD Gastrodon).
Furthermore, when I said that Yveltal had difficulty switching into battle, I was mostly referring to its ability to do so against offensive teams. With all due respect, the list you posted is far for from the accurate to X&Y’s OU metagame (I seriously doubt Venusaur will be used). Yveltal isn’t going to be able to switch into teams that utilize heavy hitters like Scizor, Keldeo, Thundurus, Lucario, Dragon-types etc. What this means is, it will have to make do with coming into battle on a revenge kill. Hell, even some of the Pokemon you’ve listed can punch through Yveltal is Stealth Rock is involved (or in Gengar’s case it can use Substitute). On a SR weak Pokemon with base 99 speed, that's a pretty significant drawback.
I’ll concede that the amount of Pokemon into switch into is significantly higher than something like… say, Hydreigon but it’s still not very high. That Stealth Rock weakness sadly cuts down on the amount Pokemon that it can switch into. (It can’t switch into Ferrothorn btw, Gyro Ball/Leech Seed does a number when Stealth Rock is involved). I’ll also concede that I somewhat underestimated it. It’s probably going to be one of the best Psychic / Ghost type check outside of Tyranitar, and it’s fairly difficult for other Pokemon to directly switch into. I’m convinced that it won’t dominate like Blaziken, Genesect, etc however.
BTW, you do realize that Kyurem-B is a top tier Pokemon in BW OU right? Comparing Yveltal to Kyurem-B is not a slight against it whatsoever. I know I’m being critical towards Yveltal, but I believe that skepticism is more useful than blind hype. I'm positive it will be a strong Pokemon.
Last edited:
Blobs and Ttar are definite answers to that set, yeah. Gastro is definitely not Recover stalling though - even Max/Max+ is 2HKOed by Dark Pulse or Rocks +Pulse + OW, and physically defense Gastrodon is generally the better set anyway, yes? Even things like Togekiss and Sylveon fail if Yveltal is using Hurricane (which does require rain support to be genuinely reliable but I think rain offense will still be a thing in some capacity), a defensive set, or a physical set . Heatran also has to be full SpD to even think about checking Yveltal (Timid offensive is outsped and exploded by Dark Pulse) and even then all it can do is Toxic and run. I will admit I overestimated Yveltal's ability to swap into Ferrothorn, though it can still come in on certain moves like Power Whip or hazards and OW + Pulse is a solid 2HKO. It can be used as a pinch check, but its not reliable.
Focus Blast is only crucial for Tyranitar. Yveltal doesn't need it, though it definitely helps it have an easier time against some things.
I won't contest that Yveltal has a hard time coming directly into those Pokemon (though it won't be OHKOed by most of them), but not every team is comprised of Scizor/Keldeo/Thundurus/Lucario/Garchomp/Dragonite, and I definitely don't expect it to be that way in XY. While it is true we don't know what the metagame is like, I do believe that the Pokemon I mentioned will all still be common threats (except maybe Venusaur unless Megasaur becomes a thing). Yveltal's bulk and STAB Sucker Punch also means it is still useful against HO teams like that, if 5th gen style HO teams will even still be good.
Yveltal can come in on almost any defensive Pokemon and even strong offensive ones like special Landorus, Latias, and Gengar. The amount of switch-in targets it has is definitely not small. While it may not necessarily be able to sweep entire teams like Blaziken (who is arguably borderline broken even now since it can Baton Pass), it's still extremely difficult to check and more or less impossible to counter. Stealth Rock is a pain, yes, but again, it is not Stealth Kryptonite to Yveltal like it is to things like Ho-Oh.
I am aware, and if we're comparing Yveltal to Kyurem-B, it is proper to point out that Yveltal, in addition to having many of Kyurem-B's strengths (titanic bulk and extremely powerful offenses) also lacks a lot of flaws that Kyurem-B had that caused it to drop in the first place. It's not hit by Spikes or TSpikes (or Sticky Web, which is probably going to be significant). It has strong priority to bypass its Speed and is not weak to priority itself bar Ice Shard. It's not weak to the most common offensive types, and its much easier to get reliable resistances to things like Rock and Electric than, say, Dragon or Fighting (though Fairies may change that somewhat). It's typing is both incredible offensively (its STABs aren't mostly redunant!) and useful defensively. I compared it to Kyurem-B because I felt that you (and others) were focusing too much on its flaws and overlooking its very substantial strengths.
Anyhoo, this thread is close to derailing into a tiering argument so I am going to stop here. I was running some calcs for a possible Hone Claws set this morning and may post them later if they turn out to be interesting.
Thanks for the calcs. I was actually thinking about extreme speed arceus, but regardless, I'm still not sure which nature to shoot for lol.
I keep seeing people mentioning running Focus Blast/Sucker Punch or Roost. Why not run both?
Referencing the OP:
Yveltal@Life Orb
Mild/Hasty Nature
32 Atk 252SAtk 224 Spe
Oblivion Wing/Hurricane (Personal Preference, I prefer OW with Groudon/TTar wrecking Hurricane's accuracy)
Dark Pulse
Focus Blast/U-Turn
Sucker Punch
Roost is Not Needed IMO, since you can lob Oblivion Wings to recover, but beyond that, Flying gets amazing coverage and with a +SAtk Nature you are sure to get huge amounts of recovery off of it (remember it recovers 75% not 50%). Not to mention, if TTar comes in, you can always U-Turn rather than risk the Focus Miss (which is SE and will still hurt off of base 131 attack and LO). Sucker Punch feels like a borderline staple IMO, with threates like scarf Genesect (Ubers) and Starme (OU) getting wrecked by it. Terrakion counters/checks it, yes, but doesn't that thing have a ton of counters itself and is easily checked by Scizor/Mega-Scizor and Lucario? (Lando-T/Aegislash/Gliscor in OU and Groudon/Giratina-A in Ubers)
Just my rambling thoughts, but this thing will be amazing no matter what tier it ends up in.
Referencing the OP:
Yveltal@Life Orb
Mild/Hasty Nature
32 Atk 252SAtk 224 Spe
Oblivion Wing/Hurricane (Personal Preference, I prefer OW with Groudon/TTar wrecking Hurricane's accuracy)
Dark Pulse
Focus Blast/U-Turn
Sucker Punch
Roost is Not Needed IMO, since you can lob Oblivion Wings to recover, but beyond that, Flying gets amazing coverage and with a +SAtk Nature you are sure to get huge amounts of recovery off of it (remember it recovers 75% not 50%). Not to mention, if TTar comes in, you can always U-Turn rather than risk the Focus Miss (which is SE and will still hurt off of base 131 attack and LO). Sucker Punch feels like a borderline staple IMO, with threates like scarf Genesect (Ubers) and Starme (OU) getting wrecked by it. Terrakion counters/checks it, yes, but doesn't that thing have a ton of counters itself and is easily checked by Scizor/Mega-Scizor and Lucario? (Lando-T/Aegislash/Gliscor in OU and Groudon/Giratina-A in Ubers)
Just my rambling thoughts, but this thing will be amazing no matter what tier it ends up in.
Fair points all around. I just want to address a few things that don't sit right with me.
Anyway, we're clearly on both sides of the extreme. I guess the best thing to do now is to wait and see, and avoid tiering talk. I think it's absolutely fair to talk about Yveltal in the standard metagame though.
I don't think that's entirely accurate. Latias commonly uses a LO set with Draco Meteor in standard, so it isn't a free switch in (I don't think it will stop using Draco Meteor in the new gen, it's too good of a nove to pass up). Gengar also isn't a free switch in, since it can use Substitute as you switch and hit Yveltal Sludge Bomb (which i'm sure it will run now) which will 2hko after SR. If Yveltal does end up being a serious threat, it can always run Thunderbolt. There's also that 50-50 element to that matchup as well, since Gengar can sub on the Sucker Punch. Don't get me wrong though, Yveltal is a good gengar check, it just can't switch in for free (nothing does...). And of course, Landorus isn't an open and shut case either. It's infamous for either U-turning or Rock Polishing, and with the nerf to Hidden Power, I can see Landorus going back a physical set.
Anyway, we're clearly on both sides of the extreme. I guess the best thing to do now is to wait and see, and avoid tiering talk. I think it's absolutely fair to talk about Yveltal in the standard metagame though.
There are multiple Pokemon with similar BSTs that are allowed in OU, few as they are. There's no reason to assume Yveltal won't be another one - and if we were to assume it, it would have to be based on thinking about how it'd perform in an OU setting.
After all, it doesn't exactly have Geomancy.
I finally am at Yvetal but not sure what nature I should get or how much a difference Timid vs Modest would make on it. I got a timid and Modest Ralts and I still can't choose <.< I need to find a good nature so that I can finally go for the pokemon league.
I spent hours soft resetting yesterday and the day before. I got a modest Yveltal, but I'm wondering if I should have gone with a Mild or Hasty nature so I didn't get the 10% deduction to the Attack stat. The stats I went with in the end; HP 201, Attack 133, Defense 115, SP.A 166, SP.Def 114, Speed 119. I believe I could have gotten 135 in Attack and 118 in SP.Def but I got fed up.
I'm still thinking on a spread of
252Hp 252SpA 4Spe
@ life orb
oblivion wing
dark pulse
focus blast
taunt/sub/u-turn/roost
Because in uber everything fast (let's say 100+) is gonna max speed, everything else is gonna play scarf or go 0ish speed (bar specs kyu-W).
With this spread you can max damage output preserving a good overall bulk and still outspeeding stuff like standard-support groudon, spD kyogre/ho-oh, both giratina, ...
252Hp 252SpA 4Spe
@ life orb
oblivion wing
dark pulse
focus blast
taunt/sub/u-turn/roost
Because in uber everything fast (let's say 100+) is gonna max speed, everything else is gonna play scarf or go 0ish speed (bar specs kyu-W).
With this spread you can max damage output preserving a good overall bulk and still outspeeding stuff like standard-support groudon, spD kyogre/ho-oh, both giratina, ...
Actually, you can easily invest on Yveltal's defenses to make it a very good switch-in to offensive Pokemon such as Gengar (and Mega Gengar), Alakazam, Latias, and Keldeo, as its bulk is pretty amazing. A 104 (due to Dark Aura) STAB Dark Pulse is more than enough for a strong and reliable move on a Pokemon, especially when only Dark, Fairy, and Fighting Pokemon resisting it, with Fighting Pokemon being weak to your other STAB and the other two types neutral to it, so basically only Tyranitar. Most offensive Pokemon only have one strong and reliable STAB move anyway, which is often less spammable and strong than Yveltal's Dark Pulse. Terrakion has Close Combat, Keldeo has Sacred Sword and Surf (both way weaker than Dark Aura Dark Pulse), Thundurus-T has Thunderbolt, etc.
Last edited:
You are definitely forgetting that Yveltal has two very important resistances to Dark and Ghost, which is huge now with Steel losing them. For example, if we took Gen 5 OU without Steel's resists, then we'd only end up with Chansey, Hydreigon and Ttar resisting Ghost type attacks. Being immune to Sticky Web, Spikes, Ground and Psychic also allows it to switch in a lot.
Oblivion Wing recovers HP as percentage of the HP lost by the defending Pokemon, not percentage of the percentage of the HP lost by the defending Pokemon, so it does not benefit from an increased HP stat, unless one is using Roost or a passive recovery that recovers HP based on a proportion of its HP. In other words, its HP stat does not affect how much HP it will recover with Oblivion Wing. It would seem that it would be better to invest some of the EVs into SDef or Def, depending on what you want to tank in general. This approach would make it each HP that Yveltal leeches more valuable.
i know that
i prefer hp over a specific def just to tank hit from both side
my question was basically: does yveltal worth the speed investment? or bulkier the better?
i prefer hp over a specific def just to tank hit from both side
my question was basically: does yveltal worth the speed investment? or bulkier the better?
This post just comes off as desperate. You list neutralities that really aren't a big deal, and fighting which a dark type loves being neutral to. You gloss over the fact that it resists ghost and dark which steel just lost its resistance to, its 125/95/98 defenses (its not exactly made of paper, in fact its probably one of the bulkiest U-turn users) and Roost which makes it lose 3/4 of its weaknesses. Also unless you can provide calcs for all those OHKOs or 2HKOs, I'm not buying it. You don't need to be part steel type with 10+ resistances to be a pivot. Also a x2 SR weakness is really not that big of a deal on a mon with plenty of reliable recovery and defenses like that as well as two moderately common immunities to exploit, as many have said previously.
As a partner, I'd recommend Metagross, Bronzong, or Jirachi. complements him pretty well in terms of weaknesses/resistances and they have super-effective STABs to ward of rock/fighting/fairy/ice types. Metagross can EQ electrics as well, whereas Yveltal takes any EQs coming their way and resists the dark and ghost attacks that they are now weak to.
Also, he combos well with Rapid Spinners, because there isn't a ghost out there that enjoys trying to kill Yveltal. Meaning your SR weakness... isn't as bad as it looks. Expecially since even if you take damage, 125/95/98 means you can roost with imputany.
Its not that powerful really it could see some potential gameplay.
Oblivion Wing is just a life sucker that's all but it could be deadly for the yveltal and darkrai teams
Oblivion Wing is just a life sucker that's all but it could be deadly for the yveltal and darkrai teams
We're referring to what it could do OUT of Ubers right now, so yes, it is that deadly.
How do people get the IVs for their legendary while soft resetting?
Especially speed, you can't know if you have 31 or 30 IVs if you have 3 other stats that could also be max IV.
Formula for stats:
Stat = [(IV + (Basestat x 2) x LvL) + 5] / 100 x Nature
Both Xerneas' and Yveltals base Speed is 99.
Which for lvl 50 legendary gives, for 31 Speed IVs:
Neutral Nature: 119.5, gets rounded down to 119.
Beneficial Nature: 130.9, gets rounded down to 130. (Note, that the stat will get rounded down, before factoring in nature)
And for 30 Speed IVs:
Neutral: 119
Beneficial: 130
Exactly the same.
You can't see, just from the stats, if your lvl 50 Legendary with (seemingly) 4+ perfect IVs has 31 or 30 Speed.
Especially speed, you can't know if you have 31 or 30 IVs if you have 3 other stats that could also be max IV.
Formula for stats:
Stat = [(IV + (Basestat x 2) x LvL) + 5] / 100 x Nature
Both Xerneas' and Yveltals base Speed is 99.
Which for lvl 50 legendary gives, for 31 Speed IVs:
Neutral Nature: 119.5, gets rounded down to 119.
Beneficial Nature: 130.9, gets rounded down to 130. (Note, that the stat will get rounded down, before factoring in nature)
And for 30 Speed IVs:
Neutral: 119
Beneficial: 130
Exactly the same.
You can't see, just from the stats, if your lvl 50 Legendary with (seemingly) 4+ perfect IVs has 31 or 30 Speed.
Honestly you are being way too objectively harsh on this Pokemon, maybe in some messed up way to make it sound like it's bad enough for OU. You're being really ignorant if you say that Yveltal has no resists; two immunities to very common attacking types as well as the Grass and crucial Dark and Ghost resists are all very useful in this meta, especially with the Steel nerf. Yveltal has very good bulk but Yveltal is going to be mostly focusing in Offense; a job which it can do excellently as seen in any of Fireburn's posts. However, I still want to emphasize that Yveltal is very bulky and it's resists DO allow it to switch into many Pokemon; obviously it's not going to wall the entire metagame like you seem to expect it to do, and saying that Rain-boosted Hydro Pumps hurt it not only applies to most Pokemon in general but is also now a moot point with the weather nerf, and straight-up ignores Yveltal's main role as a bulky attacker and the fact that most Pokemon in OU don't appreciate them either. Your logic is flawed and easily applicable to any Uber; it's like arguing that Mewtwo is not broken in OU because Specially Defensive Jirachi walls it and Scarfers exist.
Anyway I don't want to say this thing should end up In Ubers or not but I had to comment.
- Status