Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (B- and C+ Pokemon discussion)

[Vert]

I'll give you my brief opinions.

Gengar is fine. I've faced many of its sets and they are all terrifying. 130 Base SpA backed by a high Speed and access to two moves that make Substitute a nemace and easy unresisted coverage along with the Steel nerf makes it good. Its Scizor problem is less of a deal since no one uses Pursuit when Knock Off is available.

I want to say that Deoxys-D is amazing. It is more predictable than its Speed forme, but it is still one of the best leads in the game. Easy A+

Skarmory needs to be moved up to A Rank. Honestly, it gained and nothing has changed to weaken it other than some stupid Steel type nerf. It walls Mega Venusaur and Pinsir and phases out so many deadly threats in this metagame with ease, it is not even funny. It can also use Defog now and that typing and bulk makes it a good A candidate. Did I tell you that it hits hard with Brave Bird?

Finally, Gyarados should stay in its current ranking. M Gyarados is so dependent on luring Rotom-Wash with regular Gyarados, it's not even funny. I find myself being walled by a Skarmory instead of killing a Rotom-Wash because I M evolve to early. It's typing is great too and that typing lets you set up with ease for M Gyarados to kill. There are dependent on each other which should keep Gyarados in A. Even if you aren't using the M Gyarados, regular still has its merits since it can run a bulkier DD set or an LO set which hits ridiculously hard with Moxie. SubDD can set up DD to +6 on a non Thunderbolt Rotom-Wash and 2HKO it without taking major damage thanks to the Substitute.

Also, Conkeldurr, Terrakion, and Mandibuzz should move down to A- IMO.

 

[Colonial]

Mega Gyara takes less than 50% from conks mach punch (on average) so u have to be rather low on hp for Conk to stop it. In fact mega gyara can take a volt switch from rotom-w and a mach punch from conk and still live and thats without any def investment.

Why would Conk use Mach Punch? It should be using Drain Punch.

252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 171-202 (41.3 - 48.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 256-303 (61.8 - 73.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Yes I'm aware 252 HP Conk isn't the best spread but I don't know the common EV spreads. Conk needs around 216 Defense EVs to be a guaranteed 3HKO (against +0 Mega Gyara) after Stealth Rock if it doesn't have HP investment.


252+ Atk Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gyarados: 266-314 (80.1 - 94.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

So Conk can come in on the Dragon Dance, take a Waterfall, and Drain Punch back for big damage, THEN use Mach Punch to finish the job. It's not a counter because Rocks can potentially screw it up, but it does a decent job.

 

[Baharoth]

Why would Conk use Mach Punch? It should be using Drain Punch.

252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 171-202 (41.3 - 48.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 256-303 (61.8 - 73.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Yes I'm aware 252 HP Conk isn't the best spread but I don't know the common EV spreads. Conk needs around 216 Defense EVs to be a guaranteed 3HKO (against +0 Mega Gyara) after Stealth Rock if it doesn't have HP investment.


252+ Atk Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gyarados: 266-314 (80.1 - 94.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

So Conk can come in on the Dragon Dance, take a Waterfall, and Drain Punch back for big damage, THEN use Mach Punch to finish the job. It's not a counter because Rocks can potentially screw it up, but it does a decent job.

Thats right ofc. I was assuming that Conk was damaged enough to be ohkoed by +1 Waterfall. I mean obviously Gyara cant break through full health Rotom-W and full health Conkeldurr thats a bit to much to ask. But it can easily get past one of them and once weakened it can even beat both of them. In practise however stuff like Skarmory or Ferrothorn are the main problems for Gyara not Rotom or Conkeldurr.

 

[LightningLuxray]

Mega Gyara takes less than 50% from conks mach punch (on average) so u have to be rather low on hp for Conk to stop it. In fact mega gyara can take a volt switch from rotom-w and a mach punch from conk and still live and thats without any def investment.

Interesting though that ur naming Quagsire as a counter as Mega Gyara is among the few setup sweepers capable of breaking through him due to mold breaker. Ofc not unboosted but since Quagsire cant realy do anything back exept hoping for burns, and even less against Sets using Substitute, Gyara has all the time it needs to set up. The only way to stop it is Haze.

First, I want to apologize on the Quagsire calc. That was my fault, for some reason I didn't even consider Mold Breaker as a possibility when talking about it. The reason I brought it up in the first place was because Quagsire did very well against walling normal Gyara, so I assumed it was the same with Mega Gyara, while completely forgetting about Mold Breaker, and that's my fault.

Second, Conkeldurr isn't revenging with Mach Punch. It's revenging with Drain Punch. This is because Mega Gyara can't kill Conk, even at +2, meaning most of the time, Conk can come in, tank a hit, and then Drain Punch to get back HP. Here's the calc for reference.

+2 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 342-403 (82.6 - 97.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Mega Gyarados also has a hard time getting past teams with powerful priority. Talonflame is not only a great example of this, but a common one, as well. AFter switching into Stealth Rocks as normal Gyarados, Talonflame can come in and use its Choice Banded Brave Bird to do massive damage to Gyarados. In fact, it even has a chance to kill after taking 74% from Stealth Rocks

252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gyarados: 219-258 (65.9 - 77.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

There is also the ever-popular Thundorus-I, who, while admittedly being a stop to most set-up sweepers, still can come in with it's priority Thunder Wave and stop Gyarados cold. Other Pokemon, such as Klefki and Sableye, also can use Thunder Wave and Will-O-Wisp to stop Mega Gyarados, respectively.

There are also more offensive checks, as shown here:

+2 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 328-386 (81.1 - 95.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Scizor: 244-288 (70.9 - 83.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-B: 272-321 (69.3 - 81.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Blastoise: 233-275 (64.3 - 75.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

All this is assuming you're able to get to +2. However, most of the time, this isn't the case, and at +1, Gyarados has a lot more counters/checks.

252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Ice Fang vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Landorus-T: 300-356 (78.5 - 93.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 246-289 (71.5 - 84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 223-263 (69 - 81.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

At +2, there are also the extremely rare Scarfers like Greninja and Latios. At +1, he get's outsped by Scarfers like Keldeo, Terrakion, Darmanitan, Jirachi, Lando-I/T, and plenty more.

I think Gyarados's main strength is hurting defensive teams, where as long as there isn't a Ferrothorn, Slowbro, Sableye, or defensive Jellicent, Gyarados basically sweeps once it's at +2. However, without Substitute, it can be hard to set up without taking the risk of getting Burned by the likes of Trevenant or Gorgiest, as Ice Fang doesn't kill defensive variants at +1. However, running Sub means you miss out on the coverage of Ice Fang, which is extremely important for killing certain defensive threats.

While writing this, I realized something; While there aren't a ton of ways to deal with Mega Gyara, the Pokemon that can are quite common, especially higher up. I've used Mega Gyara on a team that laddered to 1600, and while at first it swept a lot of teams outright, the higher I went, the better people were able to deal with it. I still believe Mega Gyarados fits better at A, but I can see why it's a candidate for A+.

 

[LightningLuxray]

I'll give you my brief opinions.

Gengar is fine. I've faced many of its sets and they are all terrifying. 130 Base SpA backed by a high Speed and access to two moves that make Substitute a nemace and easy unresisted coverage along with the Steel nerf makes it good. Its Scizor problem is less of a deal since no one uses Pursuit when Knock Off is available.

I want to say that Deoxys-D is amazing. It is more predictable than its Speed forme, but it is still one of the best leads in the game. Easy A+

Skarmory needs to be moved up to A Rank. Honestly, it gained and nothing has changed to weaken it other than some stupid Steel type nerf. It walls Mega Venusaur and Pinsir and phases out so many deadly threats in this metagame with ease, it is not even funny. It can also use Defog now and that typing and bulk makes it a good A candidate. Did I tell you that it hits hard with Brave Bird?

Finally, Gyarados should stay in its current ranking. M Gyarados is so dependent on luring Rotom-Wash with regular Gyarados, it's not even funny. I find myself being walled by a Skarmory instead of killing a Rotom-Wash because I M evolve to early. It's typing is great too and that typing lets you set up with ease for M Gyarados to kill. There are dependent on each other which should keep Gyarados in A. Even if you aren't using the M Gyarados, regular still has its merits since it can run a bulkier DD set or an LO set which hits ridiculously hard with Moxie. SubDD can set up DD to +6 on a non Thunderbolt Rotom-Wash and 2HKO it without taking major damage thanks to the Substitute.

Also, Conkeldurr, Terrakion, and Mandibuzz should move down to A- IMO.

^^^I agree with this 90%. Gengar and Mega Gyara should stay where they are, and I definitely agree the Deo-D needs to rise do to the reason people have mentioned before. Skarm should also head up to A, because it's still such a great defensive wall for stall teams that now it even better due to it's access to Defog. I think Terrakion also should head to A- for the reason we've listed.

Conk and Mandibuzz are the only ones I'm not so sure about. Conk is such a great pivot for offensive teams. Sure, it may loose out on a lot of power w/o the boosting item, but it still has a massive base 140 attack stat to deal with. And, while it may get countered by common Pokemon like Talonflame, it has Knock Off to eliminate it's Choice Band on the switch, making it hit no where near as hard. The main reason I like Conk for A, however, is because with Assault Vest, he can deal with a lot of common special attackers offensive teams have trouble with. Most special attackers just can't deal with it with out a boost, and it can come and hit these offensive threats hard with a base 140 STAB Drain Punch.

Mandibuzz is another I'm on the fence about. When I play with it, I have a hard time using it to it's full potential, and I feel like I end up letting it die quite early. However, when paired with other defensive Pokemon on stall, Mandibuzz can work wonders. It's one of the best Aegislash counters in the tier, as with it's Dark typing, it's one of the only defensive Pokemon that can take Dark and Ghost type attacks. Not only that, but it also has access to Knock Off, Foul Play, Defog, and Roost, meaning it can support its team while also healing itself throughout the match. I think it's main problem is getting overpowered by set up Pokemon, such as Mega Charizard X. However, with support from Pokemon like Quagsire, this is somewhat of a non-issue.

However, the rest of this is prefect, and I really hope these changes get implemented! :)

 

[TooMuchSugar]

I basically agree with everything here, although CB close combat deserves a little bit more mention here. But LO is still the best set around, great wallbreaker with few safe switch-ins. Solid A-

Azumarill is just so damn godly this generation, Azumarill for A+
(here goes)

There are a lot of effective sets it can run, ranging from Leftovers and Assault Vest to the mighty CB and Bellyjet behemoths.

Let's see. His water/fairy typing is outstanding, getting you resists to fighting and dark (and immunity to dragon!!!1!), while keeping resist to fire and ice, while only gaining a neutrality to steel and weakness to poison. Dark resist might not look like it matters at first, but this guy is pretty good at soaking up knock offs and foul plays.
This great typing with resistances to the common attacking moves lets him function as a great offensive pivot, and seriously, this guy has strong checks and stuff but if the opponent mispredicts a CB azumarill can punch gigantic holes. See that Rotom-W? Play Rough does an easy 60% See that Aegislash? Knock Off OHKO's See that Mawile over there? Waterfall 2HKO's, even at -1. That Ferrothorn? It dies to Superpower. There is literally no totally safe switch-in to the CB set outside of Mega Venusaur as long as you predict the right move.
What's best, about the CB set, I'd say, is that when you have pokemon like Rotom-W and Aegislash, it easily gives a player the illusion that you're covered against it. Thus, they build their team with a weak CB azu check and 5 other pokemon that can't handle it. Then, when they bring in aegislash expecting to eat a play rough, they just straight up die to a knock off, even the tank sets. Azumarill actually lures in aegislash like it's nobody's business, its fabulous.

Assault Vest functions a lot like CB, but instead you get a cool toy named PuP to play with. This turns you into something frightening if you get it off safely. AV Azu is still a pivot in my eyes, but its built more defensively rather than forcing opponents out. Other than that, it works a lot like CB. Same goes for leftovers, although leftovers greatly increases its general survivability. Also note that you can just go mystic water to feign the CB, just remember you're play rough is a lot weaker.

But oh god, the bellyjet sets. It's so incredibly threatening that it's practically the only reason Rotom-W even runs 44 speed evs. It's tough to get a boost, I admit, but if you do it's literally the scariest little thing. +6 aqua jets are nothing to mess around with and if you're slower, well, you're dead. Bellyjet sets are something that every team must prepare for and constant pressure needs to be applied to prevent a skilled player from getting a BD off. It's downright scary, possibly its most threatening (but least practical) set.

This isn't too valid, but its worth noting that a specially defensive azumarill with sap sipper is the only true counter to both charizard forms.
Pretty cool.

So let's see.
Amazing typing, offensively and defensively.
Superb ability.
Relatively threatening presence even without boosts.
Solid Bulk.
Reliable and Powerful STABs
Strong Priority.
No crippling case 4MSS.

That's a damn solid A+ in my eyes.

I agree with this 100%. There are so few things that want to switch into a CB Azumarill, especially with the threat of a Knock Off. Azumarill is great in this metagame and I think it definitely deserves A+.

 

[Monte Cristo]

Ok so I'm going to bring up some hot topics:
Gen 5's returning destructive behemoths:
Latios and Terrakion

Latios for A+ Rank
When we put this thing into an auto neutral A rank beginning of this gen had no idea of today's metagame and were assuming SD aegis, greninja and friends would rule the meta. But what really rules the meta? RotomW-Venu-Tran, Pinsir and Zards. All of which Latios can at least check, Latios provides not only as a dangerous Draco or Psyshock button but it also serves as a scary defog/EQ/Tbolt button and it's also a very nice emergency check to MANY pokemon in the metagame. People say how bad 110 speed is Are they high? 110 speed is still amazing, but neutral priority isn't. The problem with glass cannons without their own priority is all the other priority in the metagame, the thing with latios despite it's lack of bulk compared to latias is that it's not a glass cannon, at least not specially. So in a pinch it can take priority and fire off some dangerous attacks.

Terrakion for A or A+
Terrakion may be frowned upon in this current metagame, however, I still find it to be QUITE the top notch threat. Terrakion may have things to deal with such as Mega Venusaur and the ghost/grass types however it's lack of hard switchins is insane to the band set:
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 204-241 (56 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 84+ Def Mega Venusaur: 172-204 (47.2 - 56%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 276-325 (90.7 - 106.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 201-237 (66.1 - 77.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 268-316 (89.9 - 106%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 294-346 (72.7 - 85.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 176-207 (43.5 - 51.2%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sylveon: 229-271 (58.1 - 68.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
etc
The pure destruction the CB set causes alone is worth something. Not only that but it has life orb, swords dance and /or rock polish and lead sets that all switch up how it plays and make it more of a threat. Not only all those more destructive or utility based sets but it has a noteworthy scarf set that simply crushes opposing offence letting little to nothing (not even the aforementioned +2 dnite) escape it's revenging wrath. The scarf and CB sets combined with quite possibly one of the best offensive SR lead sets next to garchomp make it quite a surprisingly versatile and problematic threat. We also can remember it's new lack of competition now that mega luke is banned.

And now onto quite possibly one of my most FAVORITE pokemon:

Latias

Latias for A+ or staying neutral ( I know someone is going to try to call the latis out so I might as well start this)
While we all know how powerful and threatening Latios is, and how it's psyshock gives it a niche by 2HKOing many fairies latias' couldn't. Howevr I think Latias is a very important defensive threat in the metagame nowadays. It pairs up excellently with Mega Venusaur-RotomW-Heatran defensive teams, and even those pokemon separately. Not only does it have good synergy with top defensive threats, but it also does well on it's own. While we all know this gen brought hell to Psychic as a defensive type, it's still quite a solid pokemon. Latias is probably one of the best defensive defoggers in the tier. It has 80/90/130 bulk coupled with draagon/psychic type, actual offensive presence as an emergency button and all the recovery options one could ask for(seriously all it needs is milk drink and it could run a 4 healing move set) and most importantly Healing Wish. Healign wish + Defog or even healing wish or defog alone with it's defensive, speed and offensive presence pairs EXCELLENTLY with MANY top threats such as Talonflame, Pinsir, Zard, Talonflame, heck infact most of S and A+ ranks are SR weak to the point where defog + HW is fucking fantastic to have in this metagame. The pure ease of overloading the shit out of the foes walls with a sweeper to live by a tiny amount only to revive yourself with no hazards on the field and try sweeping again is simply too much for just an A rank on a pokemon like latias. Not only that, but latias is still heavily viable without it, it's defensive defog sets are great and are, like I said earlier, near unmatched. Overall Latias is such an amazing team support I don't think it should be hyped any less than it deserves

 

[Always!]

About the whole Conk vs MGyara thing, Conk is a pivot, so it will be taking quite a bit of damage, and Fighting still isn't the most spamable type. Seeing as MGyara should be going to sweep a decently weakened team, there should be nothing at full health or that can tank a hit and hit back at +1/2. So if you have a Conk still alive on your opponents team, you're main goal should be to weaken it/KO it, not think that MGyara can sweep up an opposing team with something like that still at full health. This goes for the entirety of opponents team, so if MGyara is running in to those types of problems, it means that you probably are thinking that MGyara is stronger than it really is. It's a fantastic mon, but it can't be expected to kill off everything at just +1 :/

^Just what I think. MGyara is either A or A+.

 

[Tyrant laharl]

gengar should not be demoted. Despite what people are saying 110 speed is fast as fuck, and gengar has a bunch of viable sets. LO 4 Attacks and sub disable are just to of his most common sets and that barely scratches the surface of his movepool. If anything gengars been buffed this Gen thanks to the buff of both ghost and poison. I say A is the least I could give gengar.

 

[LightningLuxray]

I nominate Cloyster for A Rank.

It can use focus sash, kings rock, or white herb.
With focus sash it can set up a shell smash freely.
With kings rock it can flinch things that can live a hit.
And with white herb it can restore its defences.

+2 252+ Atk Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 480-570 (114.2 - 135.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Gliscor: 960-1140 (271.1 - 322%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 660-780 (92.4 - 109.2%) -- approx. 56.3% chance to OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 215-260 (61 - 73.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252+ Atk Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 510-610 (120.2 - 143.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 210-255 (62.8 - 76.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 252+ Atk Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 1200-1440 (314.1 - 376.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

So ya.

We're currently only discussing A- and A rank Pokemon ATM. When we get to the C- Pokemon, you can bring up Cloyster then.

 

[Assertingfire3]

I nominate Clefable for A rank.

With mega lucario and genesect gone clefable have lost two powerful counters. Clefable can also play multiple roles with its large movepool, making it very easy to tailor for your team. Clefable can be a sweeper, cleric, or support, clefable is also not limited to these roles being a jack of all trades. Clefable also has two wonderful abilities in magic gaurd and unaware. Magic gaurd making it immune to hazards and allows it to use recoilless life orb, or can hold a toxic orb or burn orb allowing it to be immune to paralysis and sleep. Unaware allows to ignore sweepers stat increases giving it the chance to set up while the opponent is setting if they dont realize you have unaware or allow you to stack cosmic powers unchallenged. With all of these tools at its disposal i believe clefable is deserving of an A rank

 

[Aragorn the King]

I nominate Clefable for A rank.

With mega lucario and genesect gone clefable have lost two powerful counters. Clefable can also play multiple roles with its large movepool, making it very easy to tailor for your team. Clefable can be a sweeper, cleric, or support, clefable is also not limited to these roles being a jack of all trades. Clefable also has two wonderful abilities in magic gaurd and unaware. Magic gaurd making it immune to hazards and allows it to use recoilless life orb, or can hold a toxic orb or burn orb allowing it to be immune to paralysis and sleep. Unaware allows to ignore sweepers stat increases giving it the chance to set up while the opponent is setting if they dont realize you have unaware or allow you to stack cosmic powers unchallenged. With all of these tools at its disposal i believe clefable is deserving of an A rank

The problem with Clefable, I feel, is that it's just good in all of its rolls. If you're using the Cosmic Power set, its power will be underwhelming. If you use the calm mind set, its defense will be underwhelming. If you use the Wish/Heal Bell set, the amount of HP you heal teammates is underwhelming. Don't get me wrong, it's a great Pokemon that can be fit on so many teams, but as much as I'd like it to be A ranked (finally), I think A- still fits it more. But that's just me.

 

[Assertingfire3]

The problem with Clefable, I feel, is that it's just good in all of its rolls. If you're using the Cosmic Power set, its power will be underwhelming. If you use the calm mind set, its defense will be underwhelming. If you use the Wish/Heal Bell set, the amount of HP you heal teammates is underwhelming. Don't get me wrong, it's a great Pokemon that can be fit on so many teams, but as much as I'd like it to be A ranked (finally), I think A- still fits it more. But that's just me.

Sorry for the late reply.

Your right about clefable being a jack of all trades a master of none, but it is also has a great typing giving only two weaknesses. It is also capable of checking dragons who try to spam outrage. Yet what clefable lacks in power it makes up in functionality. It can run a variety of sets and is one of the few fairies viable in ou.

 

[RufflesPro]

Agreeing on Azumarill for A+

This thing is soo good, BellyJet, CB, and AV sets are really good, Knock off is also very fantastic on this thing.

Agreeing on Deo-D for A+ and Dragonite for A+

Have been said enough.

Agreeing on Mega Tyranitar for A+

crazy bulky, mediocare speed, and amazing Attack along with amazing ability + super easily set ups DD.

Agreeing on Latios for A+

Choice Specs Set, LO set, or Roost + Defog set, along with the great movepool of Psychock, Draco Meteor/Pulse, T-Bolt, Ice Beam, Surf, HP Fire. Great speed and great SpA.

Agreeing on Mega Gyara on A+

Intimidate + great bulk + good typing = easy DD set up, StoneQuake + waterfall is good coverage too.

Neutral for Terrakion and Latias

I simply haven't used them enough after than bans and cannot give my opinion.

Agreeing on Bisharp for A+

Have been said enough on it.

Agreeing on Keldeo for A-

Also have been said enough on it, doesn't have the greatest coverage and best move being 80% accuracy is really lacking. I run Specs w/ HP Ice/ Hydro Pump/ Surf/ Secret Sword. Keldeo is hard stopped by a lot of thing in this meta, such as Mega Venusaur and Trevenant. Talonflame and Mega Pinsir who are very popular now wreck it too.

 

[Shroomisaur]

Happy to see the changes to the top tiers! Here are my thoughts regarding A/A-:

Deo-D -> A+. I already vouched for this change recently, but tl;dr: Deo-D is the most reliable hazard-setter in the game.

Mega TTar -> A+. I agree with a lot of the arguments in favor of this change. Megatar has just the right amount of speed, power, bulk, and coverage to be the best DD user in OU. It can set up easily and sweep mid-late game with little support.

As for the others, I think Gyarados, Lati@s, and Keldeo are fine where they are in A rank. Chou presented a great post for Dragonite for A+, but I'm still on the fence about that one. Bisharp could also stand to rise to A+ rank, due to the insane pressure it puts on opponents and how scary a +2 Bisharp is to offensive teams. I could see Terrakion dropping to A- simply isn't as effective as he was last gen, and faces a number of new checks (curse you Aegis) and dislikes priority as well. It's still very threatening though, so I can see it staying A.

 

[Timpsu]

I'm sorry if this thing has been brought up before, but I'm gonna ask it anyway. I'm perfectly fine with separating some Pokemon from their Megas, for example, there's really no reason to mention non-Mega Charizard on viability list, since absolutely no one will be using standard Charizard in OU. However, seeing as we are promoting M-Tyranitar to A+ (which I'm totally cool with, hands down best Mega in the tier imo), shouldn't we also promote regular Tyranitar to the same spot, or leave them both at A? As it has been mentioned, some of the viability of Megas comes from the fact that u do not know for a fact if there will be a Mega before it evolves. Tyranitar has plenty of viable builds, and DD-Mega-builds is just one of them, although one of the better ones. I don't think that Tyranitar is significantly better in its DD-sweeper role as opposed to the Sp. defensive role. Even more, Tyranitar does need some team support in order for it to be effective. There can be absolutely no priority before Tyranitar comes in, and bringing Tyranitar in is no simple task. After the first DD, U can usually go sweeping, but getting that one boost can be a pain. However, I'd like to see Tyranitar stay in the same bracket with its Megaform.

 

[BenTheDemon]

Um, I realize that you're probably referring to CB with that last line, but DD Dragonite is the most consistent set up sweeper there is. With Multiscale, only things like Greninja and Kyurem-B can OHKO, so it almost always gets a DD off if that's what you want. Sure it has trouble of being revenge killed by things like mamoswine, Talonflame, and scarfchomp, but what doesn't worry about revenge killers?

As for the CB, Outrage absolutely murders the metagame, end of story. I haven't had any more trouble being revenge killed than I have with say, scarfchomp. As a late game sweeper and revenge killer, CB is one of the best

I run enough HP EVs to survive a Life Orb Max Attack Greninja's Ice Beam, and it still outspeeds pretty much everything unboosted and sweeps.
So there's that in Dragonite's favor for A+.

 

[Srn]

I'm sorry if this thing has been brought up before, but I'm gonna ask it anyway. I'm perfectly fine with separating some Pokemon from their Megas, for example, there's really no reason to mention non-Mega Charizard on viability list, since absolutely no one will be using standard Charizard in OU. However, seeing as we are promoting M-Tyranitar to A+ (which I'm totally cool with, hands down best Mega in the tier imo), shouldn't we also promote regular Tyranitar to the same spot, or leave them both at A? As it has been mentioned, some of the viability of Megas comes from the fact that u do not know for a fact if there will be a Mega before it evolves. Tyranitar has plenty of viable builds, and DD-Mega-builds is just one of them, although one of the better ones. I don't think that Tyranitar is significantly better in its DD-sweeper role as opposed to the Sp. defensive role. Even more, Tyranitar does need some team support in order for it to be effective. There can be absolutely no priority before Tyranitar comes in, and bringing Tyranitar in is no simple task. After the first DD, U can usually go sweeping, but getting that one boost can be a pain. However, I'd like to see Tyranitar stay in the same bracket with its Megaform.

It's not entirely true that all priority has to be removed before a sweep
So let's see, you resist brave bird and shadow sneak.

252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Tyranitar: 168-200 (49.1 - 58.4%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Tyranitar: 228-270 (66.6 - 78.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Tyranitar: 216-256 (63.1 - 74.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

This is with 4 HP evs. Mega Tyranitar has so much bulk god damn.

 

[Jukain]

Anyways, I second an A Rank placing for Clefable. Unaware makes it one of the best ways to handle boosting sweepers in the meta (Clef + Quag is especially strong). It has the support options in Wish/Heal Bell/SR, a destructive CM set that can't be set up on...Clefable is one of the meta's best defensive Pokemon and a key stall member.

Any calls to move Bisharp up I also support. It's a god for HO. Anyone who thinks otherwise has obviously not played standard hazard core (Deo + Sharp + Aegi) HO themselves. LO Sucker Punches are devastating, Knock Off is the best move in the game, Iron Head slaughters Fairies, it is boosted by Intimidate, it can slaughter teams with one misused Defog, it makes Sticky Web a loss for its user. It can set up with SD and destroy half a HO team. Bisharp is utterly ridiculous and fully deserving of A+ status.

Adding onto the Deoxys-D arguments it can para half your team AND set up hazards if you aren't careful. Aegi can't even OHKO with Lefties SBall, this thing is a monster.

Anyone who thinks Greninja is ineffective has not seen it used effectively, it is a really good Pokemon. Outspeeding virtually the entire tier and threatening with its diverse set of high BP STAB attacks and momentum-grabbing U-turn makes it a ridiculous threat to offensive and defensive teams alike.

---

I want to see Latios in A+. This is a premier offensive Defogger with a huge impact on the metagame. It is a mighty attacker that destroys many common threats. Heck, EQ Latios, a rising threat, isn't even walled by Heatran! Its Fire resistance makes it a good offensive Megazard Y check, and it is excellent vs Keldeo. It outruns much of the metagame, has a great typing that lets it check a number of common threats, hits very hard, and provides invaluable Defog support. It is a top-tier threat, no doubt.

 

[Deluks917]

I really think Bisharp should be in at least A+. Right now it is porbably the most import pokemon in the meta imo. Critically it:

-Removes Lati@s so that Landorus/Thunderus/Char-Y/etc cannot be switched into
-Punishes defog. This is critical on deo-D teams
-Provides needed priority. Sucker punch hits extremely hard at +0.
-Has a stab knock off to help break down almost any team's defenses.
-(less importantly) punishes stickey web hard

You can get all of this with just one set: knock off/sucker punch/pursuit/coverage

It can also sweep late (with or with SD), though this requires some prediction.

 

[Salemance]

It's not entirely true that all priority has to be removed before a sweep
So let's see, you resist brave bird and shadow sneak.

252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Tyranitar: 168-200 (49.1 - 58.4%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Tyranitar: 228-270 (66.6 - 78.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Tyranitar: 216-256 (63.1 - 74.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

This is with 4 HP evs. Mega Tyranitar has so much bulk god damn.

I just like to say that, living a Base 40 power move doesn't seem so great, but when its from a Base 140 attack Pokémon, who gets STAB off of it, and its x4 weak to, THATS bulky (even if it would probably Drain Punch sooner than Mach unless Mega Tar was heavily boosted).

Then moving on to the Bisharp discussion, I feel as if it is an overall great pokemon, but is let down by its unfortunate speed stat, an un-reliable Priority Attack, and having some all to common weaknesses. Sure you can say something like Ttar has same issues, but Ttar has the Sheer bulk to over come that, while Bisharp does not. He has his greatness, that I will not deny, but the speed and un-reliable priority do hurt it severely.

Yet his abilty to fire off two great STABs (with Dark now being a much easier spam move) in any number of ways makes him an easy top tier threat, but not quite A+ in my mind.

 

[Magcargo]

Mega Scizor---> A+ Rank
Mega Scizor is an excellent Pokemon and one of the best Mega Evolutions in the tier from my experience. Its enhanced bulk allows it to check important threats much better than regular Scizor, including Terrakion, Kyurem-B, Latios and Azumarill. It can fulfill multiple roles efficiently for many common OU teams, ranging from being a solid revenge killer, to a Defog user, to a sweeper that can also function as an offensive pivot. That being said, Mega Scizor does have a few major flaws such as being walled by common Fire-types and Steel-types, as well as being setup bait for sweepers such Talonflame and Mega Charizard X, but its pros generally make it an A+ Pokemon from my experience.

Also, Latios is fine where it is and I honestly wouldn't mind dropping it down to A- Rank tbh. It's pretty easy to wall once you figure out what coverage move its running and has a large case of 4MSS. It wants to run all Shadow Ball, Thunderbolt, Earthquake, Surf, Roost, Defog, and Hidden Power, but can't, leaving it an unfortunate case where it is walled no matter what coverage move it runs. Its also checked by a large amount of common OU Pokemon, including Scizor, Aegislash, Talonflame, Heatran, Bisharp, and Sylveon depending on what coverage move it runs. Its a great offensive Defogger, making it an A-Rank Pokemon, but its flaws make it no higher.

 

[RufflesPro]

Mega Scizor---> A+ Rank
Mega Scizor is an excellent Pokemon and one of the best Mega Evolutions in the tier from my experience. Its enhanced bulk allows it to check important threats much better than regular Scizor, including Terrakion, Kyurem-B, Latios and Azumarill. It can fulfill multiple roles efficiently for many common OU teams, ranging from being a solid revenge killer, to a Defog user, to a sweeper that can also function as an offensive pivot. That being said, Mega Scizor does have a few major flaws such as being walled by common Fire-types and Steel-types, as well as being setup bait for sweepers such Talonflame and Mega Charizard X, but its pros generally make it an A+ Pokemon from my experience.

Also, Latios is fine where it is and I honestly wouldn't mind dropping it down to A- Rank tbh. It's pretty easy to wall once you figure out what coverage move its running and has a large case of 4MSS. It wants to run all Shadow Ball, Thunderbolt, Earthquake, Surf, Roost, Defog, and Hidden Power, but can't, leaving it an unfortunate case where it is walled no matter what coverage move it runs. Its also checked by a large amount of common OU Pokemon, including Scizor, Aegislash, Talonflame, Heatran, Bisharp, and Sylveon depending on what coverage move it runs. Its a great offensive Defogger, making it an A-Rank Pokemon, but its flaws make it no higher.

252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Scizor: 472-556 (137.2 - 161.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 258-304 (85.4 - 100.6%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Surf vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Talonflame: 398-470 (133.5 - 157.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Talonflame: 398-470 (133.5 - 157.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

4 SpA Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 254-300 (84.1 - 99.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Sylveon: 279-328 (70.8 - 83.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0- Atk Latios Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 224-268 (58 - 69.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Just my thoughts, Only Bisharp and Aegislash check no matter what. Or Talonflame if lucky.

And also 4MSS is not completely bad, it is good in a way that makes you versatile and unpredictable

 

[Kawaii Kyouko]

252 SpA Choice Specs Latios

The specs set is pretty much non-existant at this point.

Also, no, in Latios case it's not the good 4MSS. You very often sit thinking "fuck, I wish I had surf/tbolt/eq/hp fire/psyshock now.."
It's a very good mon, and I do run it at more or less 90% of my teams, but that 4MSS is actually affecting it. So, I'm gonna agree with magcargo there.

Also the Talonflame calcs are kinda irrelevant too, as after rocks you have 75-ish% on the OHKO. And seeing that Latios' main job these days is Defogging, you have to assume rocks damage has been taken.

 

[jacyk]

And also 4MSS is not completely bad, it is good in a way that makes you versatile and unpredictable

people are starting to forget just exactly what 4MSS means lol