Wobbuffet discussion

Status
Not open for further replies.

Stats: 190/33/58/33/58/33
Trait: Shadow Tag, prevents all other Pokemon from switching.

Support movepool:
- Counter
- Mirror Coat
- Encore
- Destiny Bond
- Charm
- Tickle (ADV)
- Safeguard

Basically anything it needs except recovey.

Wobbuffet @ Leftovers
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SDef
Nature: Bold or Calm
- Encore
- Counter
- Mirror Coat
- Safeguard

You all know it. Trap something, Encore its attack, then kill with Counter/Mirror Coat or switch to give something a free setup.

Do you really think this is broken like it was on Adv? Choice Glasses hurt it a lot and Ghosts and Darks can own it with their psychical/special moves. Stealth Rock also hurts it, as it has no way of recovery except Leftovers. Also, Beautiful Skin hurts its efficiency too.
 

jrrrrrrr

wubwubwub
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
You might want to pump more EVs into hp before the defenses, it helps in the long run. Is there any other set that Wobby could actually run?
 

Surgo

goes to eleven
is a Smogon Discord Contributoris a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Programmer Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis an Administrator Alumnus
j with a lot of rs said:
You might want to pump more EVs into hp before the defenses, it helps in the long run.
No, it really doesn't. From Wobbuffet's page on the main site: "252 Defense, 252 Special Defense and Bold / Calm. You get better defenses this way than adding HP. Even though you'll do slightly less damage with Counter and Mirror Coat, it's better to survive the hit and Counter than die and not Counter, and you'll still OHKO most heavy-hitters, and 2HKO most of the rest."
 

Misty

oh
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Admin Alumnusis a Programmer Alumnusis a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis an Administrator Alumnus
Personally, if this is allowed in OU play, I would use 252HP/252DF/Bold. Wobbuffet's biggest fear, next to Toxic Dugtrio, is Pursuit, and Wobby wants to make absolutely sure it can take even strong Pursuits - i.e., that from a CBtar.
 
I agree that some measure's were taken in order to somewhat balance Wobbuffet such as letting to Wobbuffets switch out and they happen to switch in on each other. The item Shed Skin ( I think that's what it's called I'm not sure ^_~). Even that attack U-turn which allows the user to switch out after the attack.

I don't know if this is enough for Wobbuffet to move down from Ubers or not, but I'm 100% for testing it to see where it ends up.
 
also sould last pokemon wobby's meet now one of them will die has struggle now deals 25% of your max HP has recoil damage
 
I think it should be OU. Now, since when two Wobbys meet they can switch. And as AJC said, if they are last pokes left one will kill itself thanks to struggle recoil
 
Honestly, I think it's time to give Wobbuffet another chance. There are a lot of new changes that mitigate its usefulness. Not only that, but I think allowing Wobbuffet would be good for the game in general. Even if not every team has Wobbuffet, having it out there as a threat changes the way we construct our teams. I think it changes it for the better.

Without the threat of Wobbuffet, we see exactly what we're currently seeing in the theoretical new metagame: Pokémon with four damaging moves or three damaging moves and a setup move, etc. Switch-to-a-counter ad nausem. By including Wobbuffet, you force players to diversify their movesets a bit in order to deal with it.

Here are some of the ways that you can make your Pokémon able to cope with a Wobbuffet:

Use any Sleep move.
Confusion moves aren't a surefire solution, but if you get Encored, you'll confuse whatever comes after Wobbuffet.
Use Worry Seed, Gastro Acid, Skill Swap, or Role Play and switch out.
Use U-Turn and switch to a Ghost-type.
Use a move that hits 2-5 times. Only the last hit will count for the purposes of Counter/Mirror Coat.
Use Torment so that you know when it's safe to hit it.
Use your own blocking move and poison it, burn it, or use Perish Song.
Use Magic Coat to reflect the Encore (I think this works).
Taunt it before it can Encore, then stat-up and KO it.
If Double Team is legal, start raising your evasion.
If OHKOs are legal, use them. OHKOs are probably the best way to kill a Wobbuffet.
Use Baton Pass.
If you have Shed Shell, switch out.
Use Whirlwind or Roar.

All of these move/item options have other benefits, so you won't be shooting yourself in the foot if it turns out that your opponent doesn't have a Wobbuffet.
 

Great Sage

Banned deucer.
I'm all for testing Wobbuffet in Standards, especially since now there are so many ways Wobbuffet can be damaged. There is all the Stealth Rock/Spikes/Sandstorm residual damage, and now attacks are so powerful that Wobbuffet probably rarely will get the chance to kill more than one Pokemon. And Spiritomb also owns it completely and isn't dead weight if your opponent doesn't have a Wob, Footnote.
 
Honestly, I think it's time to give Wobbuffet another chance. There are a lot of new changes that mitigate its usefulness. Not only that, but I think allowing Wobbuffet would be good for the game in general. Even if not every team has Wobbuffet, having it out there as a threat changes the way we construct our teams. I think it changes it for the better.

Without the threat of Wobbuffet, we see exactly what we're currently seeing in the theoretical new metagame: Pokémon with four damaging moves or three damaging moves and a setup move, etc. Switch-to-a-counter ad nausem. By including Wobbuffet, you force players to diversify their movesets a bit in order to deal with it.
Wobbuffet in theory only causes less versatility, because either he's going to trap and kill/setupfodder at least one thing on your team always, so every single Pokemon will need something against him.

Your counter list also has a few flaws.

Use any Sleep move.

Sleep Clause pretty much nulls Sleep being a counter to anything.

Confusion moves aren't a surefire solution, but if you get Encored, you'll confuse whatever comes after Wobbuffet.

Wobbuffet will Safeguard.

Use Worry Seed, Gastro Acid, Skill Swap, or Role Play and switch out.

There's VERY few situations other than Wobbuffet where this is useful, or at least not a wasted moveslot over something better.

Use U-Turn and switch to a Ghost-type.

Sure.

Use a move that hits 2-5 times. Only the last hit will count for the purposes of Counter/Mirror Coat.

Wobbuffet will Encore, then switch to something that doesn't mind a move that averages like 40 base power.

Use Torment so that you know when it's safe to hit it.

Wobbuffet will Encore Torment, and switch out to a Focus Puncher, Belly Drummer, what-have-you.

Use your own blocking move and poison it, burn it, or use Perish Song.

Perish Song is going to get yourself killed. The others are sort of fair I suppose.

Use Magic Coat to reflect the Encore (I think this works).

I don't think it does.

Taunt it before it can Encore, then stat-up and KO it.

Sure.

If Double Team is legal, start raising your evasion.

Wobbuffet will Encore, and from there you're starting to take really high risks. Do you really want to risk Double Teaming up against Heracross Focus Punches?

If OHKOs are legal, use them. OHKOs are probably the best way to kill a Wobbuffet.

That requires OHKOs to be legal to begin with, and they probably won't be, alas, just like Double Team. I suppose fair game, but not really a good argument for Wobbuffet.

Use Baton Pass.

Yeah, then again that requires another Pokemon on your team that can handle Wobbuffet.

If you have Shed Shell, switch out.

Same as above.

Use Whirlwind or Roar.

If Wobbuffet switches in on something else, it will Encore that before you can use these. They also won't kill Wobbuffet or help you much, really, unless you got some Spikes down there.

In case you couldn't tell, I'm anti-Wobbuffet.
 
What amuses me is that Team Rocket has an uber in their hands but they don't know it.

I personally think a mixed sweeper is the best counter to Wobby. It gets 2HKOd by everything it doesn't resist, so it can't use Encore. So it comes down to a prediction war between physical moves, special moves, Counter, and Mirror Coat.
 

Surgo

goes to eleven
is a Smogon Discord Contributoris a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Programmer Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis an Administrator Alumnus
I'll be locking this if it turns into a "Wobbuffet is uber! No it's not!" discussion, so don't.
 
I think the main thing about Wobbuffet is that it is going to make things VERY unpleasant for choice item Pokemon should it get into OU.

Specsmence is supposed to tear through the metagame. All Wobbuffet needs to do is come in on a Draco Meteor and Mirror Coat away. Either Salamence gets KO'd by Mirror Coat or its special attack drops so much that Wobbuffet lives through all 8 of them, and Salamence dies from struggle recoil.

I don't see the Wobbuffet dilemma as being much different from Tyranitar coming in on a Psychic Pokemon. You have some chance of surviving, but the ball is totally in Tyranitar's court; even if you switch, you risk getting hit by pursuit.
 
You make some good counter-arguments, Mekkah. I'd like to dispute a few of them, however.

As far as Perish Song goes, it's not a perfect solution, but I'd gladly sacrifice one Pokémon to kill off my opponent's Wobbuffet. So I don't see this as a big problem.

The fact that Worry Seed, Gastro Acid, Skill Swap and Role Play are 'wasted moveslots' is a result of the over-centralized metagame. There just aren't that many Pokémon with interesting traits in OU. I'd still consider Worry Seed for any opponents with Rest. I think stalling in D/P will be more feasible than a lot of people give it credit for.

For Torment, you're mostly right. But on a side note, I'd like to see more Belly Drummers. They don't seem to be too viable in most situations in D/P.

I think two of the reasons that Wobbuffet is considered to be so powerful are because you've outlawed Evasion-raising and OHKO moves (especially the latter). Just because many people find them cheap doesn't mean they shouldn't be allowed. I mean seriously, do you really see any of the 'standards' wasting a moveslot on Double Team or a OHKO move? The most they would do is increase the use of certain Pokémon that aren't currently standards.

Good points on confusion and Roar/Whirlwind. You're absolutely right. Wobbuffet probably can't Safeguard before it's confused, but it may Safeguard after and switch. Still, having a confusion-inducing move against Wobbuffet may be better than just having four damaging attacks.

I'd like to test Magic Coat, because I really have no idea whether or not it works on Encore. It seems to be the exact type of move it should work with, but that's no guarantee of anything.

As far as U-Turn, Shed Shell and Baton Pass requiring you to have another Pokémon that can handle Wobbuffet, that's true. But there are enough ways to counter Wobbuffet that I don't see this being a big issue most of the time. If you switch out against a Tyranitar, that requires you to have another Pokémon that can handle Tyranitar. If you want to Baton pass out against a Wobbuffet, just bring in your Gyarados, Taunt, Dragon Dance and sweep.

Using Wobbuffet also requires a bit more prediction than it used to. With the advent of moves like X-Scissor, Night Slash, and Shadow Claw, Wobbuffet has to decide whether to Encore (in case its opponent uses Swords Dance, etc.) or Counter immediately. If it chooses to Counter and you stat-up, you could potentially KO it in one hit. If it chooses to Encore and you attack it, you could KO it in two hits without it getting the chance to fight back. A lot of Pokémon get moves that are super-effective against Wobbuffet this generation.

I guess we won't really know until we try it. Oh, and until people acutually take it into account and diversify their movesets a little. If we try it and nobody even attempts to deal with it, it's not really a test at all. If we try it and it further centralizes the metagame, even after people take it into account, then by all means ban it.

I'll be locking this if it turns into a "Wobbuffet is uber! No it's not!" discussion, so don't.
I'm sorry, but I don't see anything else this thread could be. I mean, there aren't a lot of movesets to throw around. Why would you lock it as long as there's a healthy, polite discussion about it? By all means, lock it if it degenerates into a shouting match.

I think the main thing about Wobbuffet is that it is going to make things VERY unpleasant for choice item Pokemon should it get into OU.

Specsmence is supposed to tear through the metagame. All Wobbuffet needs to do is come in on a Draco Meteor and Mirror Coat away. Either Salamence gets KO'd by Mirror Coat or its special attack drops so much that Wobbuffet lives through all 8 of them, and Salamence dies from struggle recoil.

I don't see the Wobbuffet dilemma as being much different from Tyranitar coming in on a Psychic Pokemon. You have some chance of surviving, but the ball is totally in Tyranitar's court; even if you switch, you risk getting hit by pursuit.
Excellent points. I think you're probably right about Wobbuffet making choice item Pokémon unhappy. I couldn't be more pleased about that. The choice items are quite powerful and they could use some more disadvantages.
 
i figure wobby shud just be left in ubers so the game will be able to diversify a little more instead of everyone trying to force in a wobby counter while already havin to deal with monstrocities like garchomp azelf specsmence and the like but i suppose like all other pkmn it can be given a fair trial on wifi instead of automatically declaring it uber
 
Wobbuffet would overcentralize the metagame, and here's why.

Wobbuffet traps everything except other Wobbuffet. Magnezone and Dugtrio trap too, but not everything like Wobbuffet does. Magnezone/Probopass trap only Steels, Dugtrio traps everything without Flying or Levitate. Therefore to escape Wobbuffet you have to have Baton Pass/Shed Shell/Somersault. Everyone will be using Baton Pass teams because of it.

Baton Pass team abuse is bad. Very bad.
 
Allowing Wobbuffet would force me to slightly adjust my team, perhaps leaving a hole where I have a weakness. [/sarcasm]

Like OHKO moves and Double Team, it's impossible to accurately test Wobbuffet due to the biases people already have against him. People will *automatically* focus their attentions around it and countering it, skewing its actual power. Like the tests of Double Team, it wasn't a standards battle, but really a battle set out to prove that Double Team was broken.. If tests are done in this manner, we're not going to progress anywhere.

Nothing irritates me when people say 'everyone will do [action] or use [pokemon] or [pokemon counter B42]'. It's really just sensationalism. If Wobbuffet were allowed back with the right steps, it wouldn't make any big splash at all. It'd be a revenge killer, similar to Weavile and Dugtrio, as it really can't afford to switch-in and take hits.
 
You guys/gals are not gonna get anywhere dicussing. Try it and see. Patience :D ^^

Waiting for DP, here in England, on the 30th of June :(
 
Allowing Wobbuffet would force me to slightly adjust my team, perhaps leaving a hole where I have a weakness. [/sarcasm]

Like OHKO moves and Double Team, it's impossible to accurately test Wobbuffet due to the biases people already have against him. People will *automatically* focus their attentions around it and countering it, skewing its actual power. Like the tests of Double Team, it wasn't a standards battle, but really a battle set out to prove that Double Team was broken.. If tests are done in this manner, we're not going to progress anywhere.

Nothing irritates me when people say 'everyone will do [action] or use [pokemon] or [pokemon counter B42]'. It's really just sensationalism. If Wobbuffet were allowed back with the right steps, it wouldn't make any big splash at all. It'd be a revenge killer, similar to Weavile and Dugtrio, as it really can't afford to switch-in and take hits.
I completely agree. Hey people, this a new metagame and shit needs to be tested before it's banned.

Btw, I think Charm can help a lot against Pursuit so I'll be trying that over Safeguard sometime.
 
I do have a question, though. Say, for example, Encore was banned on Wobbuffet. Just Encore, nothing else. Would Wobbuffet still be uber? Wouldn't it be best just to say that Wobbuffet must carry Charm or Safeguard (or Splash) over Encore if it's that big a problem?
 

cloud

groove, slam, work it back, filter that baby, bump
is a Battle Simulator Admin Alumnusis a Senior Staff Member Alumnusis a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnus
I wouldn't mind it if we put Wobby through a bit of a test phase, just letting it be OU for a bit until we deemed it unnecessary again. The only problem I had with it in ADV was its ability to set up for Charizard/Linoone etc. That doesn't seem like that big a deal right about now, but eh.. your call is as good as mine :^D.
 

Hipmonlee

Have a nice day
is a Community Contributoris a Senior Staff Member Alumnusis a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnusis a Four-Time Past WCoP Champion
It'd be a revenge killer, similar to Weavile and Dugtrio, as it really can't afford to switch-in and take hits.
I think you underestimate Wobbuffets defenses.. CB Garchomp cannot 2hko with earthquake.. Not a lot has attacks that are too much more powerful than that.

Have a nice day.
 
A CB Dragonite Outrage however CAN 2hko Wobbuffet.

And you'd be locked in the move anyway so encore woul be kind of pointless.

There's always the danger of counter, but hey.
 
wobba

some great arguments here, I agree with people saying it needs a test phase in OU. a period of around a month would do fine, and if it proves indeed to be hard to handle make it Uber again.

keep in mind that there are indeed things that can OHKO Wobba-
Lets do some calculations with Bold max hp/129Def/129 Sp.Def Wobby.

Max Att CB Cross with Megahorn : 126.03% - 148.29%
Max Att CB Rhyperior with Megahorn : 91.27% - 107.36%
Jolly max att CB Chomp with Crunch: 52.74% - 61.99%
standard 188 SpAtk Tyraniboah with DP: 44.52% - 52.23%
Max Att CB-Tar with Crunch: 88.70% - 104.28%
Max Sp.Att Porygon-z with DP: 39.73% - 46.75% (with Download boost: 59.42% - 69.86%), with 1 Nasty Plot (78.94% - 92.98%)
Timid Max Sp.Att Life Orb Gengar with SB: 69.01% - 81.16%


so you see, he doesn't thread a path as easy as he used to. With Wobby you can't really speak of their being counters because obviously the other poke cannot switch out, but there are a few facts which are plain as day:

1. he can't afford to switch in on everything anymore, since powerful sweepers can 2ko it, especially with the addition of SR.
2. it has become harder than ever to predict with him, since mixed sweepers are running rampant and statboosting is common.

This could be illustrated with a classic Chomp vs Wobba situation.

Now, lets say wobba switches in and eats a Dragon Claw. It then basically has 2 options: to encore, or to counter. possibilites:

If Wobby uses Counter and Garchomp uses Swords Dance, Wobby will die the next turn from a Chomp EQ.

If Wobby uses Encore and encores an EQ, he will die from 2 of them.

If Wobb uses Counter and indeed Chomp attacks, the latter will be OHKO'd.

If Wobby Encores Swords Dance, it will switch out to a presumable Chomp counter the next turn while Chomp SD's again, but then Chomp can also switch out.

Hard choices.In essence, Wobba works best as a revenge killer, no doubt about it.

People fear Wobby because when speaking about him they are largely threading into unknown territory. give him a shot.
 
Nicely thought out post in a 5390321 month old thread...which is technically allowed but not encouraged for a thread as aged as this.

What is a problem is:

Taboo in the Rules said:
Status in Ubers. The Uber tier is, by now, fairly well-defined and it is highly likely that nothing more will end up a resident of said tier. As a result, discussion on whether a given Pokémon (Blissey? Tyranitar?) is "uber" or not is pointless and therefore not allowed at this time.
I can't really bring myself to infract someone who takes their time before bumping an old thread but nonetheless, please read the rules beforehand.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top