Metagame Views From The Council

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I've made my opinion clear before to people making fun of it, but I don't really care I'll say it again:

We cannot choose and pick when to be cartridge accurate, otherwise we ship-of-theseus our way into a corner and into a change grayzone.

Sleep Mod Clause is a stain on official formats, and should be removed. There are some high level players who like to say when it's brought up "who cares it's our game", in which case you can open up to any number of changes.

Considering the push towards gen homogenity and trying to follow simplicity and avoid mechanic changes at all cost (ie. Terapagos cannot Terastilize in battle, which actually can be followed in a cartridge game, unlike Sleep Mod Clause); the fact that we STILL have Sleep Mod Clause is absurd.

Delete dat shit right now. And if people cannot fathom the game working with it gone, then axe Sleep moves while you're at it.
I think all the mod needs is to be adjusted to where if the opponent has a mon that is slept then you CANNOT click a sleep inducing move unless it's forced either by encore or being the last move available on the last pokemon. This way at least it's something that becomes replicatable on cart as a gentlemans agreement to not sleep more than 1 pokemon willingly. You could still get multiple sleeps via effect spore since there is no controlling that on the users end but as long as the opponent has a mon that is alseep in their team you cannot use any move that can induce sleep.

As stands currently with the mod you can just spam the sleep inducing move without fear of sleeping a 2nd mon which wouldn't be replicatable on cart and thus use it for PP stalling.
 
I get that banning things is a lot easier, but why should we take away diversity in game plays when we already have a complex ban in place for this mechanic. Like you said earlier, its time to change the old rules to reflect the newer play styles. Why not just make a newer, shiny, complex ban?
because complex bans are not in fact newer or shinier. exactly three complex bans have been implemented during the tenures of their current generation:
  • aldaron's proposal in gen 5, which has frankly been a complete disaster and is still holding the tier back from maturing into a good and balanced meta
  • the endless battle clause in gen 6, which was originally a complex ban but was replaced with an endless-battle detection algorithm
  • the baton pass clause in gen 7, which was totally ineffective and ended up turning into a baton pass ban
complex bans are just as antiquated and out of line with modern tiering policy as modding is
 
I think all the mod needs is to be adjusted to where if the opponent has a mon that is slept then you CANNOT click a sleep inducing move unless it's forced either by encore or being the last move available on the last pokemon. This way at least it's something that becomes replicatable on cart as a gentlemans agreement to not sleep more than 1 pokemon willingly. You could still get multiple sleeps via effect spore since there is no controlling that on the users end but as long as the opponent has a mon that is alseep in their team you cannot use any move that can induce sleep.

As stands currently with the mod you can just spam the sleep inducing move without fear of sleeping a 2nd mon which wouldn't be replicatable on cart and thus use it for PP stalling.
Several Tiering members (by unpopular opinion ftr) insisted on denying a clause that prevented Terapagos from clicking the Tera button in battle, meaning we can't use it in lower tiers. If we can't do that in modern gens, I don't think we should be allowed to do that for Sleep. It's very similar; "If X, you cannot do Y (that is not prevented on cart)"
 
Greying out the move removes the strategy of risking the 2nd sleep anyway, which one could do on cart. I don't like greying out sleep moves because in cart matches would you say your opponent loses if they attempt to sleep a 2nd mon but miss?

I'm pro cart accuracy to extreme levels, the clause is egregious, but I don't think this is the answer.
The idea is that the agreement is just don't try to sleep a 2nd mon period. You and your opponent agree not to use any moves that cause sleep while a mon is asleep meaning there is no risking of 2nd sleep due to not being allowed to try and resleep a mon that is waking up that turn.
 
For the record, I've had problems with sleep abusers since pre-DLC1. Darkrai and Iron Valiant aren't the problem, they're just the best users of a problematic playstyle. Someone mentioned earlier in the thread that if a faster Pokemon like :iron valiant: got Spore, we wouldn't be having this conversation. This indicates to me that sleep moves are the problem - I'm hesitant enough to use moves like Focus Blast due to its accuracy; if sleep is so powerful that people are willing to take a near coin flip 60/40% risk to use it, that's a huge issue. Any Pokemon with high speed that gets a reliable sleep move is an issue - this is not a Pokemon specific problem - literally just about every Pokemon becomes a problem with Hypnosis.

DaddyBuzzwole was right about Hypnosis being an issue in any regard, and I'm glad he campaigned for it as hard as he did because I feel like we're reaching a point where we're acknowledging sleep as the issue. Some people in here have tried to say that "we'd have to ban paralysis or freeze", that isn't the case. Paralysis is not an assured turn of inaction, it's a chance mechanic just like critical hits and misses. Freeze may stop a Pokemon from moving assuredly but it's still a chance mechanic and there are no moves that directly cause a freeze, only moves with secondary effects. Sleep assures one turn of no movement, and most of the time two turns - the key word here being assured. You cannot assure a Pokemon not moving due to paralysis, and you cannot assure a Pokemon getting frozen by the secondary condition of a move, but you can ensure a Pokemon be taken out of commission for bare minimum one turn, likely two or more turns.

In my view, sleep is uncompetitive because of its combination of assured results + the benefits of RNG combined. I'd be in favor of either banning moves that immediately induce first turn sleep such Spore, Hypnosis, Sleep Powder, etc. If that would be too pick and choose-y and it comes down to "ban all sleep moves including Yawn", then I would also support banning all sleep moves. Overall, sleep is a net negative for the competitiveness I feel we're all trying to strive for, and I personally would like to see it go.
 
But why not just allow it, but only if they hit you enact the agreement? I don't see the benefit of grey out button vs "if you sleep 2 mons you lose"
Because it's just simpler and easier to follow. That's why the ONLY time you are allowed to use a sleep inducing move if the opponent has a sleeped mon is if you literally have no choice due to encore or it being the last move available to the last pokemon. This way it will ALWAYS be able to be replicated on cart unlike how the current mod can't be replicated on cart due to with current mod being able to spam sleep inducing moves without risk of a 2nd mon being put to sleep.
 
would you say your opponent loses if they attempt to sleep a 2nd mon but miss?
Yeah. I can understand that it maybe the opponent forgot or something, but... i mean, the rules are the rules, and not abiding by them makes the match at least invalid if we are speaking about a serious match
 
is there any type of exploit to the proposed "cant use" unless its your only option that could result in mass sleep and be effective? are there any negatives in how it would affect play?
 

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I mean a lot of us are of the opinion GF doesn't provide a great implementation of mons anyways.
As a postscript to the previous post, this is basically how Smogon started. However, the issue with this general argument is that every other mod to the cart mechanics is done with convenience in mind, generally just preventing us from needing to be nerds that can correctly read how many of the 48 pixels are showing in the health bar, or watching minute-long animations and having to keep your eyes glued to the screen to write down everything that's going on, etc. Most of these mods are done with that type of reason in mind, not as a way to edit the metagame. Off the top of my head, the two mods that were metagame-driven are OHKO clause and sleep clause, and despite the similar names these do not operate in the same way. OHKO clause is analogous to Sleep Moves Clause, not Sleep Clause, since it bans the use of OHKO moves entirely, starting from the team validator. Sleep Clause is analogous to some fucked up alternate reality version of OHKO clause where you're allowed to get one Fissure kill for some reason but then that's it. In the context of Smogon history (all the process rules on this site are designed to learn from past mistakes), we've had notoriously bad luck when it comes to nerfing non-pokemon mechanics as opposed to banning them, as can be seen by the million different Baton Pass nerfs we went through or whatever the fuck BW OU was. This is what makes Sleep Clause an archaic mod, it's the last surviving relic of a time where we thought shit like this was a smart move, and nowadays it's looked down upon for similar reasons to why complex bans are looked down upon.

I understand what you are saying and I think this is a thoughtful analysis of the issue and potential impact, so thank you.

BUT, can you please provide a definition of "Cheese" and of "Honest", because it seems like you and others are ascribing some degree of morality to these terms, with one being undesirable. How can an impartial observer measure these qualities? Are they based on some expected value of outcomes? A quality of play? A certain je ne sais quoi lol?

Further, you use the word "decent" a few times to describe both the offensive pokemon that may use these moves, as well as the odds of breaking through a defensive stop. i.e. paralysis odds are "indecent", whereas hypnosis odd are. What does that mean in both of these contexts? A combination of speed and power? A specific likelihood?

I think it is a very prickly pear to be poking what constitutes "valid" or acceptable play. The game is the game; there's no right way to play it. If we want to bend the rules because we don't like a particular outcome, then OK, but let's be honest with ourselves.
"Cheese" and "honest" are just the colloquial terms that are often thrown around when strong players are talking with each other about the meta. I understand what you mean with the morality point, so I'll expand on this a little. A pokemon is normally called "cheese" if it's significantly easier to use than it is for someone to safely respond to it (assuming that the person playing against the cheese is a strong player). Notably the part about being hard for someone to safely respond to it can apply either in the builder or in game - something like Stored Power Latias under screens is considered cheese because its strong matchups are near auto-wins without much effort from the Latias player or ability to stop the Latias from a playing. The usefulness of calling things cheesy is that it effectively signals which threats in the meta need to be countered more directly if a player is aiming for a high winrate. Since the path from getting a weak matchup vs a cheesy mon to losing is very hard to stop, it's important to make sure that the most uninteractive mons in the metagame from a gameplay perspective are amongst the list of mons that you have good answers to (since you can't have good answers to every threat in mons).

Calling something cheesy is not an argument for banning something in and of itself - it needs to be supplemented with an analysis of what a good player could do in order to secure wins against the cheese strategy. Essentially my broader argument with sleep is that it's a form of cheese that is not friendly to this process - even if I make the conscious decision to try and run the best checks possible for the sleep threat, I can still potentially lose to sleep rolls, opening up the possibility of losing in uninteractive games, in a way that I also cant really address in the builder. It's also worth keeping in mind that one form of counterplay in the builder isnt really adequate as a response to a threat - you need an assortment of available options, and ideally when you add all of them together, you should have a good enough range of options such that you can address the threat on every team you use, while also being able to use a range of different playstyles.

There isn't really a good objective way to analyze something like this, it will always come back to the limits of our creativity, but on a subjective level that's why it helps to talk to other good players - people go away, they look through all the types of options that might help vs the threat in the builder, they make a judgement of which ones they think could be viable, and then they bank that information for later whenever they need to figure out a list of potential directions they could take a teambuild. And oftentimes in this process, someone will miss something on their own, but then they'll be shown an option by a friend who figured out something while they were building.

Expected outcomes are probably the closest way to describe the type of assessment being made here, but again there's way too many factors to get a proper mathematical read on what works and what doesn't - at the end of the day it's all just opinions. Regardless of this, I think it is important for players at a high level to have some sort of handle on how much they're expecting to win in any given setting, and how well their skill matches up against their opponents, because the metagame will literally change based on the answers to these questions. I generally average a 75 percent winrate on the top of ladder, with an 80 percent winrate in tournaments, and as a result of this I need to take a different approach to the metagame than what I would recommend to the average tournaments player who is aspiring for a 60% winrate. Typically from my perspective, I need to be avoiding cheesy mons and I need to be extra careful when using anything that creates predictable interactions, as the chance of getting a play right approaches 50 percent for both players the more that both players understand the full situation. For the purposes of getting 60% winrates though, it's probably more important to focus on using the best mons available, as they will have the most tools to bail you out if you make small misplays.

"Honest" is just the opposite of "Cheese"

"Decent" in the context i'm using here wasn't intended to be a synonym for "honest", I was talking about the other meaning of decent, i.e. not good but also not bad. In pokemon terms this would mean mons around B rank in the VR (my personal version of the VR has Lilligant-H in the B+/A- range so I just called it "decent")
 
I can understand that it maybe the opponent forgot or something
this is the problem with these kinds of "in-battle" clauses: someone shouldn't be exempted from following a rule just because they forgot. anyone can claim forgetfulness or misclicking. even if they're telling the truth, the fact that something was unintentional doesn't make it legal. but imagine misclicking and losing not because you made a bad play but because your misclick was against the rules. imagine how fucked up that would be
 
After careful consideration and reading 3 pages of bickering arguements, I have come to the conclusion of fuck it. I honestly don't care enough if sleep as a whole is banned or we do nothing. As long as it stops the constant back and forth of people argueing about this. Both sides have great arguements and apart from a few individuals, most people have been somewhat respectful.
I still believe that hypnosis sash darkrai and red card amoonguss will just be other meta trends that will fade. However, if the darkrai set still is overbearing, then suspect darkrai. If when it is still banned sleep is still an issue, suspect sleep. Then re-release darkrai. You're covering all bases and if sleep becomes a non-issue after the darkrai ban, good, now most people will stop talking about it and we can get to more pressing issues.
Again, don't care if sleep is straight on the chopping block, but it kinda gets tiring seeing the same back and forth.
 
this is the problem with these kinds of "in-battle" clauses: someone shouldn't be exempted from following a rule just because they forgot. anyone can claim forgetfulness or misclicking. even if they're telling the truth, the fact that something was unintentional doesn't make it legal. but imagine misclicking and losing not because you made a bad play but because your misclick was against the rules. imagine how fucked up that would be
oh you thought my blissey had natural cure and went to sleep my switch in but blissey actually serene grace and you lose :\
 
is there any type of exploit to the proposed "cant use" unless its your only option that could result in mass sleep and be effective? are there any negatives in how it would affect play?
only thing that comes to mind that could remotely be an issue is Effect Spore, since the effect of the ability is random and there is technically no way to prevent sleep from it without introducing another mod to the game but i mean on the slim chance that it ends up being a problem the solution could just be to ban effect spore

this is the problem with these kinds of "in-battle" clauses: someone shouldn't be exempted from following a rule just because they forgot. anyone can claim forgetfulness or misclicking. even if they're telling the truth, the fact that something was unintentional doesn't make it legal. but imagine misclicking and losing not because you made a bad play but because your misclick was against the rules. imagine how fucked up that would be
agreed; that's why the proposed solution is to gray out the button so that there's no possible way for a player to misclick
 
To clarify this since I don't know if I explained it well enough in the previous post:
Thank you for this post, I'm glad it was clarified. I think the way you phrased things was clear and helped shed light onto specific reasonings for this call. My big thoughts here:

This also marks a big difference between Sleep and other forms of RNG - even the most relevant para users like Home/DLC 1 Zapdos generally aren't able to force decent odds to break past their defensive answers. Even if Zapdos ran into a Gking with no supplementary counterplay, it's still harder for Zapdos to Twave Hurricane its way through a Gking than it is for a Darkrai/Iron Valiant to hit a Hypnosis and then get through basically anything with a 2 or 3 turn sleep.
The Zapdos comparison is a little strange since Zapdos already has a harder time breaking Gking than something like HypnoHex Val. If we were to compare HypnoHex Val with a theoretical ParaHex Val, running thunderwave over hypnosis, the Para Val would be more unlikely to break Gking than Hypno Val odds wise, which is a valid point towards the removal of sleep. However, I was under the impression the point of this discussion was regarding the uncompetitiveness of sleep. Ie IF sleep gets off in the gross way it does, it leads to an outcome that has no practical counterplay. If we ARE banning sleep due to uncompetitiveness, you have to acknowledge that para is as uncompetitive. Ie IF para gets off in a gross way it leads to outcomes with no practical counterplay. Same with freeze and other hax elements.

For me, this is an easy net positive change when you compare this to the tradeoffs made with Sleep Clause. Originally, the idea behind Sleep Clause was that you could nerf sleep well enough that the annoying aspects of it wouldn't be worth complaining about, while still being able to preserve the niches of mons that relied on sleep. Regardless of whether this is enough reasoning to justify a nerf instead of a ban, the reasoning itself is much less applicable nowadays when there's 3 A-/B+ level mons that are causing problems due to sleep (Lilli is super underranked because word haven't traveled on the recent Lilligant suns yet), while the mons that might be screwed over by a sleep ban are increasingly irrelevant. At this point, even banning one of Darkrai or Valiant in order to preserve Sleep Clause literally takes more away from the metagame than replacing Sleep Clause with Sleep Moves Clause, which would kinda defeat the point of having Sleep Clause in the first place.
This is my BIGGER thought here. The removal of sleep does not seem to change much for gen 9 OU. It only really kills off Venomoth and Breloom. In return it brings Darkrai, Valiant, and Lilligant to acceptable levels, and most other sleep users aren't affected much. But that is just in regards to Gen 9 OU. This implementation would have insane potential to expand beyond gen 9 OU. I know the council generally focuses their decision on only their tier at the current time, but this is not something like banning an RU pokemon or a move to ubers. This is a mechanic with a much larger range. Action on Sleep Clause Mod specifically would also motivate the change to take place across all generations. Amoonguss, Tangrowth, Breloom all fall out of their roles or get worse in previous gen's OUs where their roles were far from evaporating and pretty required for the health of the tier. In some cases things like Spore Breloom has been used to limit the overall power of HO and preventing those playstyles from being to run away with dominance. SM Tangrowth uses Sleep as a blanket answer to stopping hazard and setup mons. Without it the opponent gets free offensive momentum on this otherwise OU staple. You really cannot argue only a few things would be affected. On the other hand, banning a few pokemon in one tier in one generation is a much less problematic thing. Especially when you can argue a few of those pokemon are hard to stop regardless of sleep.
 
Funny this is brought up as I think calling for the removal of sleep mod clause due to it not being cart accurate is also a slippery slope fallacy. Otherwise I see no valid complaint against sleep clause mod other than 'it breaks da rules'. Like *why* is it bad that something exists that isn't able to be replicated on cart? I don't understand
I do want to respond to you as a "cart purist." In my mind, the reason this is bad is because, fundamentally, we are playing Pokemon. And, at the end of the day, we don't make the rules of Pokemon. Sure, we can decide that we will play a singles match with up to 6 Pokemon, but we can't decide to play triple in SV with 9 Pokemon. We can choose which mons to exclude, but we can't create new ones to balance the game. We don't get to decide if fire is strong against water or if bug is neutral to fairy (copium). We can push the available tools to the limit, but we can't create new tools. If we do, we aren't really playing Pokemon anymore. Love it or hate it (definitely hate), one entity (that does a bad job a lot of the time) controls how the game operates. We, as consumers, agreed to that when we picked up the game.

Of course, there are many fan projects out there, including within Showdown (NatDex anyone?) that gives the players more freedom to dictate how to operate the game. I love playing fan games and rom hacks, and I think a lot of them do things better than GF does. But the idea in the Gen9 OU ladder is to play the game to cart accuracy. Yes, there are some things added for convenience, like the percentages and battle log, but they don't change the game like sleep mod does. With this mod, we aren't playing Pokemon, we are playing a Pokemon-like game (much like how Count Von Count from Sesame Street is vampire-like, but not a vampire, as he doesn't drink blook because children).
 
I find it really funny how we were all shitting on DaddyBuzzwole before dlc for thinking hypnosis darkrai was going to be broken and now we've done a hard 180 and are looking into banning sleep of all things.

There are like, what, 5 pokemon that use 1-turn sleep at all? Off the top of my head I can think of breloom, lilligant, amoongus, valiant, and darkrai. 3 of them are pretty unambiguously broken at all. If a mechanic is broken on 2 things but fine on 3 others, then you ban the mons rather than the mechanic. It's why Annihilape is banned instead of rage fist because primeape is fine with it.

Pokemon will always have hax, and it will always have game-deciding hax. I regularly see games decided because darkrai flinchs a tusk, ival crits a hatterene, or kyurem freezes a gambit. That's not even to mention the massive tera and sucker punch mindgames that boil down to luck that the community has decided are completely fine. It's a luck-based game, we either accept that or go play chess with lavos.



you have no idea how unbelievably hyped I am for that daddybuzzwole villain arc
(this post is petty sorry in advance)

yall also shit on me for two pages saying that alolan ninetales would fall off once the brokens were banned (and IIRC someone even claimed using aninetales for offensive capabilities with nasty plot was good?!?!) and now its UU. also yall heavily shit on me for bringing up sleep mod clause as a problem lmao
 
Listen to MeepBard (and Gohankuten and June Heat ).

"You can't pick a sleep move when an opposing Pokemon is already asleep and you have another option." cleanly solves the cartridge accuracy issue. The only thing you lose is the ability to spam Spore when something is already asleep, but that's an acceptable compromise. Anti-sleep players should appreciate the nerf, and pro-sleep players should prefer a slight nerf to a full ban.

You also avoid the feel-bad corner cases you get with "Sleeping a second Pokemon makes you lose." The times when you are locked into a sleep move and can't switch out are vanishingly rare and unlikely to affect competitive play. Contrast that with players losing on the spot if the opponent locks them into Spore at the wrong time, which is what the auto-lose wording would do.

Finally, you get to keep the power level of sleep roughly the same as it is now. This is not some untested complex ban invented out of whole cloth to salvage a new mechanic. It's a proven solution with decades of tiering precedent, only now it doesn't require a mod.

Maybe sleep deserves further action, or maybe it doesn't. But cartridge accuracy should not be the driving force behind a ban. There's a very sensible way to get rid of the mod without banning sleep altogether, and that should be the first step before doing anything more drastic.
 
If Darkrai is causing sleep to be an issue, ban it.

If Valiant or ATales (or anything else) are causing sleep to be an issue, ban them too.

The issue with Sleep is not the status itself. The issue with Sleep is Pokemon that are strong enough to create a scenario where a free turn or two is enough to win on the spot with minimal viable counterplay. And the solution is not to chip away at these broken threats, but to ban them. There is way too much effort being spent trying to allow some of Game Freak's craziest and most powercrept mons in OU by any means possible.

Smogon mocked the people that wanted to ban Speed Boost instead of Blaziken for well over a decade. Let's not creep towards that. Ban Darkrai instead of Sleep.
Well, again, remember that "Sleep is not broken" and yet you say it may break some Pokemon, when it's literally already nerfed by a cartridge-incompatible mod in order to keep that status quo.

We all agreed Sleep was broken when we had to mod the game to make it not as bad.
 
this is the problem with these kinds of "in-battle" clauses: someone shouldn't be exempted from following a rule just because they forgot. anyone can claim forgetfulness or misclicking. even if they're telling the truth, the fact that something was unintentional doesn't make it legal. but imagine misclicking and losing not because you made a bad play but because your misclick was against the rules. imagine how fucked up that would be
yeahh, thats why we would gray out the Arceus forsaken button. I'm not proud to admit it, but the number of times i click a sleep move because i forgot is... well it's more than i would like to admit even though i did just admit ?
 
yeahh, thats why we would gray out the Arceus forsaken button. I'm not proud to admit it, but the number of times i click a sleep move because i forgot is... well it's more than i would like to admit even though i did just admit ?
and what happens if, for some incomprehensible reason, you were playing on cartridge, where the button can't be grayed out? yes, cartridge play doesn't really matter, but we have to at least act like it does
 
Several Tiering members (by unpopular opinion ftr) insisted on denying a clause that prevented Terapagos from clicking the Tera button in battle, meaning we can't use it in lower tiers. If we can't do that in modern gens, I don't think we should be allowed to do that for Sleep. It's very similar; "If X, you cannot do Y (that is not prevented on cart)"
Yeah I definitely feel like they should have just made it so Terapagos couldn't tera but the tiering council didn't want it and the situation in this case is slightly different. In this case all I am proposing is modifying the sleep clause mod so that it is more in line with cart. The only change in play it would have would be no longer being able to click a sleep inducing move if the opponent has a mon that is slept instead of being able to just spam it with no repercussions.
 
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