needs more clamperl. also dewgong with hydro rest is annoying. whoever said no to wailord is losing their mind. wailord sweeps in ou. its basicly a lesser kyogre with scarf attached its a beast. heck, rain teams own in uu with wailord, clamperl, toxicroak, pikachu and dewgong the list goes on. i might just try that....
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UU Threat lists
- Thread starter Foxfish
- Start date
Yes ... sorry I should have been clearer.
I'm inclined to agree ... most sets are walled pretty thoroughly by the ever present Claydol, indeed most bulky ground types.
I think its absence from the list stems more from a lack of useage, than anyone discounting its potential.
Annoying yes ... threatening not so much.
No we're really not ... and Wailord's ability to sweep in OU is not really relevant, as its a completely different environment. In UU Wailord can be good, however it is not something that people consider countering when building teams, nor is it used frequently enough to have generated any sort of "buzz". Hence it being discounted from the list.
Most players are naturally more familiar with OU pokemon, their strengths their weaknesses ... this is not necessarily the case for UU, which is why I suggested the split. I was battling a respected member of the pokemon community on Shoddy a few days ago and he had no idea whether Rapidash was a physical or special attacker.
I don't understand why this is being made right now. Wouldn't it be better to wait until the suggestion in this thread is accepted or rejected? UU may be undergoing a huge change soon, so a threat list right now might just be a big waste of time.
I wish the Policy Review forum was open for non-badged members, but I guess we had our chance.
I wish the Policy Review forum was open for non-badged members, but I guess we had our chance.
Please reread what I said ... at no point did I say Wailord was "bad".
Lots of things in the current UU metgame can "sweep teams very vast" under circumstances, unfortunately if everything was included the list could be several pages long. Because Wailord is not used as frequently as other threats it was ommitted in favour of threat do see use ... this is no reflection on its potential to sweep, or its quality as a pokemon.
By Wailord, I assume we're all talking about CS Water Spout Wailord.
He's decently strong and fast with the CS, but the simple fact is that he's a one-trick pony. There are a ton of water absorbs/dry skin in UU compared to OU and if he ever gets hit, he loses his gun. Not worthy of threat list at all people.
He's decently strong and fast with the CS, but the simple fact is that he's a one-trick pony. There are a ton of water absorbs/dry skin in UU compared to OU and if he ever gets hit, he loses his gun. Not worthy of threat list at all people.
Ehhh, he still has Selfdestruct as a last resort move if he really needs to, and that works great on a CS set. He doesn't even need to worry about KOing Blissey in UU, so he doesn't need to waste anything on attack EVs.
The CS set is ok, but it's much better in OU than UU, so hence I agree with you that he shouldn't be an UU threat.
Is Nasty Plot Plusle a Special Threat as it can baton pass and has decent speed and spatk.
Foxfish, is there any chance you could edit the OP with the information presented in Forsety's post. As long as it's been analyzed and scrutinised by the rest of you guys, I know Lemmiwinks Mk II picked out some errors and if anyone else can, please do so.
Also, if someone could do something of a Defensive Threat list, that'd be great. I'm really enjoying how this thread is turning out, especially cos alot of the "Pros" (ODDish, Pneuma, Bologo). Heck, i'll be using this thread as a basis when I get around to building my own UU Team.
Also, on a slightly related note, how "threatening" are entry hazards like Spikes, Stealth Rock, Toxic Spikes and likewise, how "threatening" are weather effects, (i.e. Sunny Day, Rain Dance teams)? And, by Threatening, i mean, how dangerous/powerful they are and how common are they?
Also, if someone could do something of a Defensive Threat list, that'd be great. I'm really enjoying how this thread is turning out, especially cos alot of the "Pros" (ODDish, Pneuma, Bologo). Heck, i'll be using this thread as a basis when I get around to building my own UU Team.
Also, on a slightly related note, how "threatening" are entry hazards like Spikes, Stealth Rock, Toxic Spikes and likewise, how "threatening" are weather effects, (i.e. Sunny Day, Rain Dance teams)? And, by Threatening, i mean, how dangerous/powerful they are and how common are they?
Spikes - IMHO not nearly as effective as in OU. The more rapid pace of the environment, and general frailty of most of the spikers, means less opportunity to set up.
Stealth Rock - used less than it perhaps should be, but just as deadly. Just consider the offensive threats that it hits for SE damage (Scyther, Altaria, Ninetales, Pinsir, Venomoth ...)
Toxic Spikes - worse than regular spikes, given the number of viable poison pokemon just waiting to absorb them.
Sunny Day - I've seen many attempts, but results have, thus far, been unspectacular.
Rain Dance - In skilled hands devastating. For my money, it's the reason Golduck sees as much use as it does.
I'm working on a defensive list as we speak.
Also just my input on the hazards although ODDish covered them...
Sunny Day- Actually not seen too much, most threatening fire and grass sweepers (Exeggutor, Typhlosion) are in BL at the moment. The only major Sunny Day users in UU is Rapidash and Vileplume. Others who can use it just find it a bonus Jumpluff, Manectric, Ninetales.
Rain Dance- Quite regularly seen, there is a massive selection of Swift Swim users, Water Absorbers and sweepers who all enjoy it. Mantine, Kabutops, Omastar, Gorebyss, Huntail, Quagsire, Toxicroak etc. All of them absolutely thrive in this environment.
Stealth Rock- Not very common due to the bias towards heavy offensive in UU. However it is extremely threatening, many things in UU have weaknesses to SR or just cannot deal with regular passive damage. In fact half of the top offensive threats are pretty easily ruined by SR.
Spikes- Not very useful unfortunately for reasons already mentioned. High speed metagame and 3 turns of setup and general lack of Spike users.
Toxic Spikes- Literally worthless. Too many things in UU are immune or lap them up. Toxicroak, Claydol, Muk are regulars who all spit on any attempt of a setup.
Leech Seed- Jumpluff, Meganiu almost always have it, ever since Tentacruel became OU its become quite abit harder to deal with. It also makes the Hitmon's quite abit more useful due to naturally high defenses/low HP and Clefable has partially filled Cruel's void.
Persian is up there if you look.
Wailord learns Self Destruct? Thats news to me...I'm pretty sure it doesn't in game.
Even if its accepted it'll take a long time to work and when it does go through this list can always be updated.
Okay finished a defensive list description and it needs checking over guys. Also made necessary corrections and additions to the offensive threat list.
Continued from http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1176508&postcount=46
Continued from http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1176508&postcount=46
It gets it via move tutor in pokemon XD.
Torkoal can use Iron Defence ... its not used much but might as well mention it.
Politoed has access to refresh which I've found invaluable since opponents often like to poison it ...
Probably should mention Leech Seed on Vileplume (I don't remember how it gets it but its an option on Shoddy)
CAn't think of anything else off the top of my head.
Politoed has access to refresh which I've found invaluable since opponents often like to poison it ...
Probably should mention Leech Seed on Vileplume (I don't remember how it gets it but its an option on Shoddy)
CAn't think of anything else off the top of my head.
Excellent guide Forsety, you seem to have covered all the major points on all the threats. One minor nitpick would be that Clefable has base 73 defense (you sure have a thing for the number 70). Other than that everything looks fine. Good job!
On a slightly different note, has anyone considered Linoone as worthy of a mention on the offensive list? It's not the most commonly seen threat by a long shot, but its unique Belly Drum/Extremespeed combo can be deadly against unprepared teams, with a decent 1048 max Attack. Carries Shadow Claw for Ghost coverage. Also not necessarily countered by the same Pokemon as you use to counter Swellow as its ability to learn Rock Smash to work off that massive boosted attack and even a couple of novelty special moves in Surf/Grass Knot means you have to think a bit more carefully when choosing your Steel or Rock type Pokemon to counter it.
On a slightly different note, has anyone considered Linoone as worthy of a mention on the offensive list? It's not the most commonly seen threat by a long shot, but its unique Belly Drum/Extremespeed combo can be deadly against unprepared teams, with a decent 1048 max Attack. Carries Shadow Claw for Ghost coverage. Also not necessarily countered by the same Pokemon as you use to counter Swellow as its ability to learn Rock Smash to work off that massive boosted attack and even a couple of novelty special moves in Surf/Grass Knot means you have to think a bit more carefully when choosing your Steel or Rock type Pokemon to counter it.
Made a few grammar changes and corrections as well as adding some extra lines, noticeable one being Sandslash does not learn Roar. I also put in notes about Hitmontop and Froslass being the top 2 used UU pokemon as thats important to know when team building.
@Bologo
That makes sense, also makes Wailord actually useful...
@ODDish
Didn't bother with Iron Defense simply because Curse and WoW are better. Refresh for Politoed was added, I added in a line about Leech Seed on Vileplume.
@Lemmiwinks
Its because 70 is a prettier number than 73 ;_;
Also I think you're right in saying Linoone is a massive threat. But its also safe to say being able to pull that off is a high risk/high payoff thats well deserved if you do. You don't even need to be terribly strong to finish it off in that situation, best strategy is just to attack.
@Pneuma
Hes under generic defensive, since the guy just never dies from anything.
@Bologo
That makes sense, also makes Wailord actually useful...
@ODDish
Didn't bother with Iron Defense simply because Curse and WoW are better. Refresh for Politoed was added, I added in a line about Leech Seed on Vileplume.
@Lemmiwinks
Its because 70 is a prettier number than 73 ;_;
Also I think you're right in saying Linoone is a massive threat. But its also safe to say being able to pull that off is a high risk/high payoff thats well deserved if you do. You don't even need to be terribly strong to finish it off in that situation, best strategy is just to attack.
@Pneuma
Hes under generic defensive, since the guy just never dies from anything.
Why was Kangaskan removed from the defensive threat list? It_never_dies_with_Wish. It's the best Spikes shuffler in UU imo because it can take nearly any unboosted hit and hit back with powerful Returns. You definitely need something that can take it out in one or two hits without dying in the process, or it can very feasibly stall you out.
Great work here guys, especially you Forsety. One itsy-bitsky nit pick regarding the offensive threat list is the lack of mention for SunnyBeamers. Victreebel, Shiftry, Vileplume and others can be a massive offensive threat if they or a team-mate uses Sunny Day so I'd like some opinions on that. It's been a long time since I've played UU so I can't possibly comment on whether they are common enough to warrant a mention but they're obviously much more viable than they are in the OU environment so I'd like some opinions on them!
IMHO you answered your own question really, Sunndy Day simply isn't used.
Rain Dance is the dominant weather in UU, and I don't see it changing to be honest. There are too many good pokemon, and some not quite so good pokemon (I love you Parasect) who can abuse the Rain, unlike Sunny Day which is essentially limited to a few fire/grass types.