Resource USUM OU ULTRA Viability Ranking Thread

[stuuful12]

Volcarona A+ --> A
Volcarona is a pokemon that's still very good in the current meta. however, due to the koko+hawlucha core getting more used, ash gren still being used a lot, heatran still walling it and being one of the best mons in general, and scarf greninja catching use again, volcs life is getting hard. its still good tho.

Volcarona always goes through this cycle, yes it has to be a little selective with its coverage but it’s an easy adjustment to make as the meta shifts. Guarantee as Heatran/Pex continue to become people’s main Volc counters and they stop doubling up other checks, HP Ground/Psychic will start to get more popular again and the cycle will repeat. Mantine and Chansey, its most reliable counters regardless of set, have been used consistently since fairly early SuMo and have never stopped Volc from being highly viable. SR is obviously not new either and there’s more Defogger than ever before, giving you more options when building around Volc.

I don’t see a point in dropping it now during a transition phase when, frankly, by the time the ratings get updated it will have probably shifted back to the most appropriate set for the meta and will pop back up in viability. Let’s stop chasing the cycle and just leave it where it belongs.

Yeah, lets not go through this again.

EDIT: To clarify and give substance to this post, I might as well point out the fact that most of these problems aren't old, and most of them are in fact have existed for a long time with the exception being maybe Scarf Gren rising in usage, but it has been deemed that those offensive answers weren't enough to hold the bug down and discussion on this has already been brought up. Volc has ways to deal with all the problems you just listed, except KokoLucha, and scarfers outspeeding it to get the kill have never been new. Volcarona seems to go through this stage of looking bad during a transitional phrase, and immediately bounces up in viability once someone makes an innovation or adjustment to the set which makes it then good. And for those out there who are confused by that, here is a basic summary of the Volcarona cycle ( which I find ironic because its a moth, which is close to a butterfly) so that we don't have to go through this again

The wonderful world of Volcarona's place on the viability rankings

1. We start off our cycle where Volcarona seems to be exceptionally good, where it takes down the majority of the tier with one simple Quiver Dance, and never has to worry about a thing. It takes the meta by storm, winning many matches among the higher echelon of Ou, and already the viability rankings get fired up nominating this thing up constantly until the next rankings update arrive.

2. People start getting paranoid about the bug and what havoc it could unleash on their teams, and as such, they start over preparing for it on their teams, fearing the worse. They sometimes even pack in two answers to the bug, and it always will be on the mind of every team builder as they attempt to hold back the monstrous Volcarona from beating them in tournament games where it matters most

3. The influx of these new counters to the Volcarona set hold it back from dominating every game its in, and as such, it starts to drop a tad bit in viability as the result of its new found counters. The game plan against the bug has been found out, and it starts to make less ( though still very high) impact on matches

4. As a result of these new counter infesting every single team, Volcarona loses usage and many in the viability rankings start asking for it to drop, saying that these new meta trends prevent the bug from doing its best, and as such, it looks less and less like a meta-defining mon

5. Suddenly, due to Volcarona's wide decrease in usage, people start preparing less and less for it, believing that Volcarona isn't as good anymore, and as such, they can easily get away for under-preparing for it, and start packing less and less counters to it, because of the relative absence of the moth from big games and tournaments

6. Suddenly, somewhere, somehow, some person whether it be a SPL player or a highly regarded player of Ou invents or revitalizes a set to take on the set of counters to Volcarona that the old variant couldn't take on. And then they use it in games, and predictably, Volcarona makes a very big impact, startling players into quickly milking the new set for all its worth, until people start actually preparing for it. If you don't beleive me about this idea, then just remember that Charti Volcarona came from meta trends, that subswarm used to be terrifying early USUM after the Nagandel ban until it faded into the back of peoples minds, that psychium came from an innovation to deal with pex after the Dugtrio ban

7. We end off our cycle where Volcarona seems to be exceptionally good, where it takes down the majority of the tier with one simple Quiver Dance, and never has to worry about a thing. It takes the meta by storm, winning many matches among the higher echelon of Ou, and already the viability rankings get fired up nominating this thing up constantly until the next rankings update arrive.

 

[robofiend]

Response

Now for a probably more controversial drop
View attachment 106808 From C+ to C

When one of the most prominent offensive cores in the meta game as of late can utterly destroy you with both mons, then there is a problem.

I don't necessarily disagree with this nom, but I do disagree with this logic. The Kokolucha core kills nearly everything in the metagame right now, including some top-tier mons like Greninja, Volcarona, Defensive Landorus-T, Chansey, Kartana, Bulu, etc. Being weak to Kokolucha isn't a inherently bad and being strong against it doesn't make you inherently good (looking at you, Hippowdon). Zapdos, Toxapex, and Clefable, the three most reliable Lucha counters imo, can't handle Tapu Koko reliably and die to almost any of its sets. Similarly, Gastrodon, Tapu Bulu and whatever else kills Tapu Koko some of the time can't really stand up to Hawlucha. There's a reason they're a great core.

Hydreigon is bad because it has bad typing, an ok movepool, and defensive moves but no niche to use them in. It checks essentially nothing: Rotom-W, Ash-Gren, and Heatran are all obvious things that it answers, but they all have other things to do besides attack it if it swaps in in the realm of setting/removing hazards. It can Roost/Defog but can't provide offense, and pretty much every pokemon that it might want to swap into has a move that seriously cuts into its viability. To me it's comparable in role to Latios: great movepool, great defensive/support moves, it checks a few things, but ultimately it lacks the right ability and typing to actually work out in the field. Oh, and it's stats are all lower than Latios, who's functionally very hard to use anyway at this point.

Tyranitar A > A-
This Mon has fallen out of favor as of late, It isn't even that great of a stallbreaker anymore because stall has been prepping and running around with Buzzwole and with Hippowdon being very solid rn and Gliscor spiking in usage it is very annoying for Tyranitar. Keldeo Is usually a solid partner with Tyranitar and is certainly a decent Mon but nowhere near as good as it once was in oras with the introduction of Toxapex, thus making Taunt CM it's best set and making Keldeo much less of a polarising threat. Regular Latios also isnt really that good right now and EQ mega latios has been rising in usage lately and makes ttars job much harder. This makes the combo of Keldeo + Tyranitar Not much of a fantastic core as it once was. Being forced out by powerful Meta threats such as Kartana, The Rising Medicham, And The best Mon in the tier isn't really that good either, And Heatran a Mon it's supposed to "Check" Can easily beat it with Groundium-Z.

I can't disagree with this comment more, CB Tyranitar is still a solid threat and it does more than just pair with Keldeo. In fact, your insistence on talking about this core makes me think you're actually making a comment about Keldeo being bad than Tyranitar being bad. We all know Keldeo is bad, or at least way worse than it was in ORAS.

In my eyes, Tyranitar is one of the best available checks to the now-ubiquitous Zapdos, as well as the steel types it might pair with. Zappy's always on edge about whether it should swap and take a Pursuit or stay in and get killed by Stone Edge, or risk letting Lando-T, Ferrothorn, Magearna, Zygarde or Gliscor take a big hit from Crunch or EQ in Magearna's case. Heatran's ubiquity also plays to Tyrant's strengths - a single Stone Edge puts it in the red and Pursuit takes 80% off its health if it chooses to switch out. Tyranitar is also the best check to Blacephalon and puts a huge pressure on Chansey and Tornadus-T, as well as shutting down Reuniclus and being able to break CM Clefable before it really can get rolling with CM's. Lots of ways for Ttar to contribute to a team, all at the cost of its somewhat unfortunate typing and one-sidedness (AV can be ok but it struggles to find a purpose with so many sweepers carrying Focus Blast or some equivalent).

 

[Ske]

I don't necessarily disagree with this nom, but I do disagree with this logic. The Kokolucha core kills nearly everything in the metagame right now, including some top-tier mons like Greninja, Volcarona, Defensive Landorus-T, Chansey, Kartana, Bulu, etc. Being weak to Kokolucha isn't a inherently bad and being strong against it doesn't make you inherently good (looking at you, Hippowdon). Zapdos, Toxapex, and Clefable, the three most reliable Lucha counters imo, can't handle Tapu Koko reliably and die to almost any of its sets. Similarly, Gastrodon, Tapu Bulu and whatever else kills Tapu Koko some of the time can't really stand up to Hawlucha. There's a reason they're a great core.

Hydreigon is bad because it has bad typing, an ok movepool, and defensive moves but no niche to use them in. It checks essentially nothing: Rotom-W, Ash-Gren, and Heatran are all obvious things that it answers, but they all have other things to do besides attack it if it swaps in in the realm of setting/removing hazards. It can Roost/Defog but can't provide offense, and pretty much every pokemon that it might want to swap into has a move that seriously cuts into its viability. To me it's comparable in role to Latios: great movepool, great defensive/support moves, it checks a few things, but ultimately it lacks the right ability and typing to actually work out in the field. Oh, and it's stats are all lower than Latios, who's functionally very hard to use anyway at this point.



I can't disagree with this comment more, CB Tyranitar is still a solid threat and it does more than just pair with Keldeo. In fact, your insistence on talking about this core makes me think you're actually making a comment about Keldeo being bad than Tyranitar being bad. We all know Keldeo is bad, or at least way worse than it was in ORAS.

In my eyes, Tyranitar is one of the best available checks to the now-ubiquitous Zapdos, as well as the steel types it might pair with. Zappy's always on edge about whether it should swap and take a Pursuit or stay in and get killed by Stone Edge, or risk letting Lando-T, Ferrothorn, Magearna, Zygarde or Gliscor take a big hit from Crunch or EQ in Magearna's case. Heatran's ubiquity also plays to Tyrant's strengths - a single Stone Edge puts it in the red and Pursuit takes 80% off its health if it chooses to switch out. Tyranitar is also the best check to Blacephalon and puts a huge pressure on Chansey and Tornadus-T, as well as shutting down Reuniclus and being able to break CM Clefable before it really can get rolling with CM's. Lots of ways for Ttar to contribute to a team, all at the cost of its somewhat unfortunate typing and one-sidedness (AV can be ok but it struggles to find a purpose with so many sweepers carrying Focus Blast or some equivalent).

While I do agree with Tyranitar checking zapdos "a mon that is rising in usage" is very solid at the moment, mons like Blacepholon and Reuniclus are hardly relevant and Tyranitar still does a bad job at checking Reuniclus because of Focus Blast.
While Tyranitar does pressure Chansey, Tyranitar Isn't really a torn check because torn can run superpower and Banded Tyranitar being knocked off cripples it heavily, making it unable to properly break defensive cores. Tyranitar never was really a Clefable "Check" and AV tyranitar was only useful in Naganadel meta shouldn't be relevant or used anymore.

 

[Ryomathekillers]

While I do agree with Tyranitar checking zapdos "a mon that is rising in usage" is very solid at the moment, mons like Blacepholon and Reuniclus are hardly relevant and Tyranitar still does a bad job at checking Reuniclus because of Focus Blast.
While Tyranitar does pressure Chansey, Tyranitar Isn't really a torn check because torn can run superpower and Banded Tyranitar being knocked off cripples it heavily, making it unable to properly break defensive cores. Tyranitar never was really a Clefable "Check" and AV tyranitar was only useful in Naganadel meta shouldn't be relevant or used anymore.

Tornadus does not run superpower. Tornadus cannot use Defog while tyranitar is out stopping it from coming in. Cefable cannot use calm mind against tyranitar as Tyranitar takes a huge chunk with SE. While Blacephalon is not that relevant it still is the best counter to it in the tier and that should be note worthy. Once again, this mon has already dropped from A+-A due to it's drawbacks and letting it drop further would be a massive mistake.

Volcarona A+ --> A
Volcarona is a pokemon that's still very good in the current meta. however, due to the koko+hawlucha core getting more used, ash gren still being used a lot, heatran still walling it and being one of the best mons in general, and scarf greninja catching use again, volcs life is getting hard. its still good tho.

While we are not going through this again, I feel like I should mention that ash gren cannot revenge kill a +1 volc and HP ground beats heatran. The only real point against it is kokolucha, which isn't enough merit for a drop.

 

[SeniorGibus]

To me it's comparable in role to Latios: great movepool, great defensive/support moves, it checks a few things, but ultimately it lacks the right ability and typing to actually work out in the field. Oh, and it's stats are all lower than Latios, who's functionally very hard to use anyway at this point.

I mean, 5 odd special attack doesn't really mean much in the long run when hydregon has a far better movepool and physical attack so it doesn't get dicked by steels as a wallbreaker. These mons might look similar but in function they're far different. Latios functions as a pokemon that works best when steels are worn down so it can drop dracos or function well vs offense; hydregon is a wallbreaker. Obviously the latis are better for there scarf sets but comparing these mons is a bit odd. Anyways, tldr hydregon should stay cause it still breaks cores very well, which is the whole point.
Also counsel better vote on hippo soon seeing it in C+ gives me eye cancer

While we are not going through this again, I feel like I should mention that ash gren cannot revenge kill a +1 volc and HP ground beats heatran. The only real point against it is kokolucha, which isn't enough merit for a drop.

Agreed, enough of this. Stop trying to drop this poke, everyone.

Don't drop t-tar, it's a powerful pokemon that has few switch ins and pretty much claims one vs offense. Also; somebody nomed for mega to be A- again which I agree with. Its still a great rocker and DD is also pretty neato vs a lot of teams. The reason for this dropping was kinda dumb in the first place, but it where it belongs; especially with zapdos rising.

 

[Colonel M]

Tornadus does not run superpower

Tornados definitely can run Superpower if the team can afford it.

Furthermore, From 1825 stats:

Moves |
| Hurricane 99.551% |
| Knock Off 78.202% |
| Defog 62.931% |
| U-turn 62.281% |
| Superpower 46.136% |
| Heat Wave 26.498% |
| Taunt 11.555% |
| Other 12.844%

That's basically near 50% Tornadus-Therians.

 

[Ryomathekillers]

Tornados definitely can run Superpower if the team can afford it.

Furthermore, From 1825 stats:

Moves |
| Hurricane 99.551% |
| Knock Off 78.202% |
| Defog 62.931% |
| U-turn 62.281% |
| Superpower 46.136% |
| Heat Wave 26.498% |
| Taunt 11.555% |
| Other 12.844%

That's basically near 50% Tornadus-Therians.

While I will admit that you are right, it still can't really afford to use it over Knock off and U-turn, and even then I do not believe that it stops Tyranitar from doing it's job as tornadus cannot come in so it remains an equal check (in the scenario it has superpower anyways and even then it only does 90 max with a - nature which is probably has), even with this I still believe that a drop for Tyranitar to A- Is uneeded since it has already dropped to A for it's faults.

On the subject of Tyranitar, put the mega back up to A-, it dropped due to it's subpar Ddance set despite it's OSR set being fantastic and I think that it should remain in A- for it instead of B+ with pokemon like Keldeo and Latios.

 

[Mellow]

While I will admit that you are right, it still can't really afford to use it over Knock off and U-turn, and even then I do not believe that it stops Tyranitar from doing it's job as tornadus cannot come in so it remains an equal check (in the scenario it has superpower anyways and even then it only does 90 max with a - nature which is probably has), even with this I still believe that a drop for Tyranitar to A- Is uneeded since it has already dropped to A for it's faults.

It definitely can afford to run Superpower over U-Turn. If you run 40 Atk / 216 SpA / 252 Spe Naive (yes this is ripped from smogon no my point is not less valid because of it) it gets a lot of rolls with Superpower, including OHKOing CB Ttar after rocks.

 

[Ske]

While I will admit that you are right, it still can't really afford to use it over Knock off and U-turn, and even then I do not believe that it stops Tyranitar from doing it's job as tornadus cannot come in so it remains an equal check (in the scenario it has superpower anyways and even then it only does 90 max with a - nature which is probably has), even with this I still believe that a drop for Tyranitar to A- Is uneeded since it has already dropped to A for it's faults.

On the subject of Tyranitar, put the mega back up to A-, it dropped due to it's subpar Ddance set despite it's OSR set being fantastic and I think that it should remain in A- for it instead of B+ with pokemon like Keldeo and Latios.

Superpower Tornadus Runs A Spread of 40 Atk 216 Spa And 252 Speed with a Niave Nature, Also Ttar mostly dropped From A+ to A because back then Naganadel was still in the tier and AV was the best answer to it and it was on almost every team even though it was a suppar set, However I too didn't like the reasoning for ttar dropping back then also, I think saying AV isn't it's best set and Naganadel isn't in the tier would had been enough.

 

[robofiend]

Tornados definitely can run Superpower if the team can afford it.

Furthermore, From 1825 stats:

Moves |
| Hurricane 99.551% |
| Knock Off 78.202% |
| Defog 62.931% |
| U-turn 62.281% |
| Superpower 46.136% |
| Heat Wave 26.498% |
| Taunt 11.555% |
| Other 12.844%

That's basically near 50% Tornadus-Therians.

I guess the same could be said of Heatran with Ground-Z, EQ M-Latios, Blace with Wisp/Trick, Zapdos with Volt Switch, etc., they all have ways of playing around and beating Tyranitar but they all come at some opportunity cost and they can all find themselves in a tough place if Tyranitar doubles in at any point (minus Torn). In Torn-T's case, choosing Superpower means it now takes more damage from special attacks and has to drop U-Turn or Knock Off, both of which are nice to haves on a utility mon. But like you said, if you can make it work on your team then it's clearly viable.

As for the person who mentioned Reuniclus.. yeah I'll see your 30% miss rate on FB and raise you one of these: 252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Crunch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Reuniclus: 380-450 (89.8 - 106.3%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery

 

[Indigo Plateau]

I haven’t read through this thread in a long time, so apologies if this nom has already been made but

needs to drop

Let’s start off with its SPL usage:
37 | Mawile | 7 | 3.89%

Replays

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-339949 sets up SR, didn’t really need to come in much tho tbh

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-342030 dies to Moonblast

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-343233 dies to Hydro Pump

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-344400 does 34% to Lando

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-346259 nabs two kills, most I’ve seen it get in a while tbf

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-352118 kills Chansey & gets haxed to death, probably would’ve picked up another kill

couldn’t find seventh replay & didn’t wanna look thru replays again rip

I’m not a fan of solely dropping tour stats/replays so I'll quickly elaborate:

1) Mawile's lackluster speed and SM's power creep means that Mawile has been struggling quite a bit recently. Base 50 speed, even invested, isn't outrunning some of the most prominent defensive Pokemon in the game such as Landorus-T and Heatran. These two Pokemon, alongside Toxapex, are seen on a majority of teams in the current metagame, and they all serve as good answers to Mawile. Mawile needs an SD to break through Pex, and even then, it risks a Scald burn basically neutering it.

2) Despite amazing defensive typing in Steel/Fairy, Mawile is still taking a lot from resisted hits: 50% from AV Bulu's Wood Hammer, 50% from non-specs Lele's Psychic, 33% from neutral Kartana's Leaf Blade, etc. This means that Mawile isn't easy to bring in, even vs resisted hits, unless it's on completely passive Pokemon that it can take advantage of such as Ferro or Clef. Mawile's movepool is also somewhat predictable, as it needs Sucker Punch to be able to hit faster Pokemon reliably. It's not hard to predict after that, as it's almost guaranteed to run PR and then probably SD+Knock to not be walled by Pex.

3) Although megas are not as much of a necessity as they were in ORAS, a lot of the time I can't see myself using Mawile. If I needed pure wallbreaking, I'd much rather go with Medicham due to its higher base STABs + speed. As a Steel- type, Scizor offers much more utility to a team. The rise in usage of MLati@s also means that a lot of teams don't want to use their mega slot on Mawile.

Mawile really isn't on the same level as Greninja, Medicham, and Zapdos in A- and should drop to B+, where it fits better compared to the rest of the mons in it.
While we're at it, raise my girl

up too, MLatias BO builds have been pretty successful during SPL and it doesn't deserve to be in B with stuff like Blacephalon & Excadrill lol

 

[Mellow]

I haven’t read through this thread in a long time, so apologies if this nom has already been made but

needs to drop

Let’s start off with its SPL usage:
37 | Mawile | 7 | 3.89%

Replays

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-339949 sets up SR, didn’t really need to come in much tho tbh

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-342030 dies to Moonblast

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-343233 dies to Hydro Pump

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-344400 does 34% to Lando

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-346259 nabs two kills, most I’ve seen it get in a while tbf

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-352118 kills Chansey & gets haxed to death, probably would’ve picked up another kill

couldn’t find seventh replay & didn’t wanna look thru replays again rip

I’m not a fan of solely dropping tour stats/replays so I'll quickly elaborate:

1) Mawile's lackluster speed and SM's power creep means that Mawile has been struggling quite a bit recently. Base 50 speed, even invested, isn't outrunning some of the most prominent defensive Pokemon in the game such as Landorus-T and Heatran. These two Pokemon, alongside Toxapex, are seen on a majority of teams in the current metagame, and they all serve as good answers to Mawile. Mawile needs an SD to break through Pex, and even then, it risks a Scald burn basically neutering it.

2) Despite amazing defensive typing in Steel/Fairy, Mawile is still taking a lot from resisted hits: 50% from AV Bulu's Wood Hammer, 50% from non-specs Lele's Psychic, 33% from neutral Kartana's Leaf Blade, etc. This means that Mawile isn't easy to bring in, even vs resisted hits, unless it's on completely passive Pokemon that it can take advantage of such as Ferro or Clef. Mawile's movepool is also somewhat predictable, as it needs Sucker Punch to be able to hit faster Pokemon reliably. It's not hard to predict after that, as it's almost guaranteed to run PR and then probably SD+Knock to not be walled by Pex.

3) Although megas are not as much of a necessity as they were in ORAS, a lot of the time I can't see myself using Mawile. If I needed pure wallbreaking, I'd much rather go with Medicham due to its higher base STABs + speed. As a Steel- type, Scizor offers much more utility to a team. The rise in usage of MLati@s also means that a lot of teams don't want to use their mega slot on Mawile.

Mawile really isn't on the same level as Greninja, Medicham, and Zapdos in A- and should drop to B+, where it fits better compared to the rest of the mons in it.
While we're at it, raise my girl

up too, MLatias BO builds have been pretty successful during SPL and it doesn't deserve to be in B with stuff like Blacephalon & Excadrill lol

Seconding this. There's just not much reason to use Mawile over Medicham, the ability to more easily beat stall just isn't as useful anymore, since stall is less common and more pressured than before. The drop in speed is so crippling for it's mu vs offense / teams that aren't stall, and as you said, it isn't even that bulky.

 

[SeniorGibus]

Dropping mawhile - huh, never thought of that. Impartial on it.

Anyways, the week is almost over so I might as well keep the tradition and slap a UR nom on this thread.

Lucario to C- (or C but heheh)
Now, before we begin, no I don't think this is dpp. I wish this was dpp.

Sample Sets

Nasty Plot (The Lesser Set)
Lucario @ Life Orb
Ability: Steadfast
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest/Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Aura Sphere
- Flash Cannon
- Psychic / Vacuum
- Nasty Plot
Dual STAB hits nearly the entire tier, with psychic to round out coverage for toxapex. Vacuum wave is another option to destroy offense and mons that would normally revenge kill the SD set, such as kartana. Modest is used because you don't really need timid, most excadrill will either be suicide lead (focus sash), sand rush (bop), or scarf (gg wp). You still outspeed heatran by one point, but you miss out on some zygarde. This set is inferior to the next set:
Swords Dance
Lucario @ Fightinium Z / Steelium z
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Meteor Mash
- Extreme Speed / Thunder punch
- Swords Dance
Now, this is a relic, barring the possible Z move (LO works too but I'd recommend Z). This pokemon breaks offense and stall, and believe it or not, has a way of breaking toxapex without a coverage move. Lucario's dual STAB and access to meteor mash allows it to be a potent threat to many balance teams. Fight z is lordly vs pokemon such as quagsire, skarmory, and even pex (doing upwards of 60 after an SD). Steel Z destroys lando with a clean oko after rocks while also molesting fini, mega venusaur, etc.
Note: You could always use sets like LO mixed ( p much physical with psychic > sd ), cb, specs, etc. However, NP and SD are going to be the sets that will fulfill this pokemon's niche the most.

What is Lucario's Main Niche?
Lucario's neiche is as an anti-offense and balance pokemon with it's threatening priority or dual stab + coverage moves. Some people may be thinking "o, good luck breaking pex balance", but you can use coverage moves on either set to annihilate toxapex, at the cost of some revenge kills. (Note; if you're not using priority, use a speed boosting nature.)
Scrolling through the OU sample teams and looking at a lot of team composition, You'll notice that people use toxapex/a fairy/lando as their fighting resist, which are all great resists and all, but with proper coverage, the right set, or the right z move, lucario breaks all of those (Pex, psychic/tpunch, a fairy, you don't need to know this one, lando drops to NP or steel z, or just mash if you weaken it with something such as CB zygarde, lopunny, bulu, zard-x, drill, kartana, look, you get the point. Also forgive my 400 commas guys :[ )
Can Any Other Pokemon Fulfill Lucario's Niche?
Good question. While there's no shortage of balance breakers out there, lucario's various means of dealing with common scarfers separates it from other "claim one vs balance" pokemon such as kyrum-b, bulu, kart, etc. Omitting scarf lando, heatran, and lele, few scarfers can stand up to lucario's boosted priority. Forgive me if I forgot a scarfer or revenge killer (I say scarfer because that's often the way balance uses to revenge kill breakers, or use a faster breaker of their own, which is unlikely to appreciate lucario's priority attacks especially in the lategame w/chip.
Replays and Calcs - Proof of Concept
Calculations:

Nice Counter

+1 252+ Atk Lucario Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-Therian: 168-198 (43.9 - 51.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Lucario Corkscrew Crash (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-Therian: 325-384 (85 - 100.5%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Lucario All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Toxapex: 208-246 (68.6 - 81.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
+2 252+ Atk Lucario Thunder Punch vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Toxapex: 220-260 (72.6 - 85.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
+2 252+ Atk Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko: 195-230 (69.3 - 81.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Keldeo: 207-244 (64 - 75.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Lucario Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 104+ Def Celesteela: 307-363 (77.3 - 91.4%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Lucario Corkscrew Crash (175 BP) vs. 248 HP / 88 Def Venusaur-Mega: 433-510 (119.2 - 140.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Lucario Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 339-400 (93.3 - 110.1%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
ETC. Note that most things close to koing such as T punch on pex are gona kill w/ LO.

REPLAYS

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-722891999
Shows Lucario's ability to to ungodly things to balance if played correctly. There's a bit of stall w/steela in the middle so skip to the end :]
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-722906651
Another balance game ft. Fight-Z+Espeed lucario. Not sure why he clicked x when I made the correct play because the game was even there.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-722910387
Vs balance; admittedly sacking pex was a misplay on his part which let luc clean but I kinda won even w/o the sac.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-722970853
luc kinda rapes him in this; ig fastdos was obvious so e-speed was the play but I won either way. I use a choicelocked latios as set up fodder. Vs balance (?)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-722974290 One of the best examples
Jesus christ lucario gives him the smackdown in this; very gg vs some cool Sceptile squad.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-722976221 For the one dude who will say zapdos is a counter
Make a dude click x, he should've gone keldeo but IG this works just as well, luc got a kill when it came in.

Edit: Added more replays of me using a lucario HO team I threw together, this lordly pokemon got me off tilt so that's pretty good.
Also a nice sample team; the best luc team I have ATM if you wanna try the savior of OU for yourself. https://pokepast.es/b19ce7719d5e27ad
Hide your bitch, lucario is here and now.

 

[Meliodafu7]

I haven’t read through this thread in a long time, so apologies if this nom has already been made but

needs to drop

Let’s start off with its SPL usage:
37 | Mawile | 7 | 3.89%

Replays

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-339949 sets up SR, didn’t really need to come in much tho tbh

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-342030 dies to Moonblast

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-343233 dies to Hydro Pump

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-344400 does 34% to Lando

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-346259 nabs two kills, most I’ve seen it get in a while tbf

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-352118 kills Chansey & gets haxed to death, probably would’ve picked up another kill

couldn’t find seventh replay & didn’t wanna look thru replays again rip

I’m not a fan of solely dropping tour stats/replays so I'll quickly elaborate:

1) Mawile's lackluster speed and SM's power creep means that Mawile has been struggling quite a bit recently. Base 50 speed, even invested, isn't outrunning some of the most prominent defensive Pokemon in the game such as Landorus-T and Heatran. These two Pokemon, alongside Toxapex, are seen on a majority of teams in the current metagame, and they all serve as good answers to Mawile. Mawile needs an SD to break through Pex, and even then, it risks a Scald burn basically neutering it.

2) Despite amazing defensive typing in Steel/Fairy, Mawile is still taking a lot from resisted hits: 50% from AV Bulu's Wood Hammer, 50% from non-specs Lele's Psychic, 33% from neutral Kartana's Leaf Blade, etc. This means that Mawile isn't easy to bring in, even vs resisted hits, unless it's on completely passive Pokemon that it can take advantage of such as Ferro or Clef. Mawile's movepool is also somewhat predictable, as it needs Sucker Punch to be able to hit faster Pokemon reliably. It's not hard to predict after that, as it's almost guaranteed to run PR and then probably SD+Knock to not be walled by Pex.

3) Although megas are not as much of a necessity as they were in ORAS, a lot of the time I can't see myself using Mawile. If I needed pure wallbreaking, I'd much rather go with Medicham due to its higher base STABs + speed. As a Steel- type, Scizor offers much more utility to a team. The rise in usage of MLati@s also means that a lot of teams don't want to use their mega slot on Mawile.

Mawile really isn't on the same level as Greninja, Medicham, and Zapdos in A- and should drop to B+, where it fits better compared to the rest of the mons in it.
While we're at it, raise my girl

up too, MLatias BO builds have been pretty successful during SPL and it doesn't deserve to be in B with stuff like Blacephalon & Excadrill lol

Agree with both. Mawile is threatening but so fucking slow and it main niche of stallbreaker isn't need that much, and Also face a lot of competition from shit like Kartana or offensive Landorus-T as stallbreaker. Drop it.

Also agree with the rise of M-Latias. The drop in usage of ttar really helps it, while bisharp and weavile are really uncommon. It is way better than shit in B like Blacephalon in the current metagame

 

[wheitron]

Ok, my nom :

Bisharp B- > As low as we can get it

This mon just doesnt do it as it used to, webs are trash rn with so many defoggers and ALL setters are at max in C+, outside of webs it just doesnt do work, with other dark mons such as greninja being preferred or a steela that actually breaks fat shit better ( kart) or dat brings defensive utility ( all others basicly), furthermore, lucha koko has raised, and this core really dismantles any attempt of bish. drop it

 

[RufflesPro]

Hello guys. I haven't been around the scene in a while (around end of ORAS) but I have been dabbling a little recently and I think I have an opinion on something. Feel free to tell me if its crap or not.

I personally think Victini should go B- > B

I'm not talking about the celebrate set. I personally think that set is situational and OK at best. I think the Choice Scarf set is very very good in the meta right now though. Sure it's speed isn't THAT great, but I personally think the best scarfer rn is Kartana and Victini is very close to that speed mark. So it isn't all too bad. What's really good about Victini IMO is that it hits surprisingly hard with V-create, has very good offensive and defensive typing in the meta rn, and is actually a good revenge killer. Also, he isn't that bad of a late-game sweeper.'

Here is how it fairs against some of the most common offensive mons in the game:

Hide

1. Volcarona. One of thing the biggest threats in the game. Scarf tini speed ties with it which is unfortunate, but even if it loses the speed tie it can actually take a hit from anything except Swarm Bug Buzz or a Z move. On other hand, Victini OHKOs with V-create'

Calcs:
+1 252 SpA Volcarona Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Victini: 228-268 (66.8 - 78.5%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Victini V-create vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 348-411 (111.8 - 132.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

2. Kartana. Victini outspeeds anything but scarf and OHKOs. Even if the kartana is scarf +1 Atk Victini takes anything (even +1 Knock off if it at full health) and OHKOs back

Calcs:
+2 252 Atk Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Victini: 189-222 (55.4 - 65.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Victini V-create vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kartana: 780-916 (300 - 352.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

3. Ash-Greninja. It can outspeed and kill it with bolt strike. Dies to water shuriken though. But it forces out a switch if it's locked to anything else.

4. Landorus-T. Anything but defensive gets 2HKO'd by V-create. AKA its not a switch in.

5. Tapu lele. Outspeeds even scarf and OHKOs with V-create. It can also actually take a couple of hits.

Calc:
252 Atk Victini V-create vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Lele: 312-367 (111 - 130.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

6. Tapu koko. outsped and has a 93.8% at OHKO-ing

Calcs:
252 Atk Victini V-create vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko: 280-331 (99.6 - 117.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

I think the only two sweepers it cannot reliably check are Zygarde and Hawlucha (+2 Acro is a roll in Victini's favor tho)

Moveset:

V-create is a must. I think U-turn has great utility on a set such as scarf. Bolt strike is also very nice to be able to revenge kill greninja and 2HKO Tox. The last slot is up to personal preference. Zen Headbutt makes Victini a much more reliable late-game sweeper as V-create's knockback stats ruin that and Bolt Strike doesn't hit too hard on neutral. Another option could be Trick, which is personally my favorite, and it allows Victini to annoy some of annoying mons such as Heatran, Zygarde Tapu Fini or Tox and effectively cripple them. Hell you can even run Glaciate and 2HKO Lando-T and Zygarde with no SpA investment required.

Momentum & Partners

I actually think Victini forces a LOT of switches and the amount of momentum you get with U-turn is crazy, and can be capitalized on with the right partners. Heatran, the most common switch in, can be U-turn'd on which gives you a FREE greninja switch and a FREE specs hydro pump. Water pokemon such as Tapu Fini or Toxapex can also be U-turn'd on (if you don't feel like risking Bolt Strike) which again is a free switch to a Tapu Koko or Tapu Lele which both usually get a kill from a specs move.

I also think that Trick is actually a great move because it doesn't only help Victini but also helps the wallbreaker on your team (which again, I think wallbreakers are the best partners to Victini) because for example it can cripple the Heatran that Tapu Lele is struggling with, or can cripple the Toxapex that Greninja is struggling with, etc. etc.

I think B is a great place for Victini, as it does suffer from many weaknesses such as V-create's knockback, SR weakness, and not being that good of late game sweeper or that hard hitting on defensive teams.

 

[Ryomathekillers]

My nom:
View attachment 107585A- to B- or C+
As much as I really hate to say it, Chansey stinks in OU. Stall is out of relevance in OU with the three good stallers being Stall Gastrodon, Quagsire and Unaware Clefable. All she can really do is form some cores in OU other than stalling and that's pretty much it for her.

Chansey should by no means drop that low. Chansey still acts as a great counter to many powerful special attackers in the tier such as Ash greninja and volcarona and can also sponge hits from pokemon like Lando. Putting Chansey in the same tier as Charizard-Y or Terrakion should not happen.In stall you are also wrong, Mega-Sableye,Quagsire/Clefable and Chansey are the most prominent pokemon in stall. Chansey is glue, amazing glue for any team that has issues with a certain pokemon that doesn't have a strong physical move or is a physical set up sweeper and A- Shows that perfectly.The fact that it can also free up a move slot on another pokemon by setting up rocks on those special attackers is wonderful for it aswell.

 

[Mellow]

Hello guys. I haven't been around the scene in a while (around end of ORAS) but I have been dabbling a little recently and I think I have an opinion on something. Feel free to tell me if its crap or not.

I personally think Victini should go B- > B

I'm not talking about the celebrate set. I personally think that set is situational and OK at best. I think the Choice Scarf set is very very good in the meta right now though. Sure it's speed isn't THAT great, but I personally think the best scarfer rn is Kartana and Victini is very close to that speed mark. So it isn't all too bad. What's really good about Victini IMO is that it hits surprisingly hard with V-create, has very good offensive and defensive typing in the meta rn, and is actually a good revenge killer. Also, he isn't that bad of a late-game sweeper.'

Here is how it fairs against some of the most common offensive mons in the game:

Hide

1. Volcarona. One of thing the biggest threats in the game. Scarf tini speed ties with it which is unfortunate, but even if it loses the speed tie it can actually take a hit from anything except Swarm Bug Buzz or a Z move. On other hand, Victini OHKOs with V-create'

Calcs:
+1 252 SpA Volcarona Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Victini: 228-268 (66.8 - 78.5%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Victini V-create vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 348-411 (111.8 - 132.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

2. Kartana. Victini outspeeds anything but scarf and OHKOs. Even if the kartana is scarf +1 Atk Victini takes anything (even +1 Knock off if it at full health) and OHKOs back

Calcs:
+2 252 Atk Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Victini: 189-222 (55.4 - 65.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Victini V-create vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kartana: 780-916 (300 - 352.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

3. Ash-Greninja. It can outspeed and kill it with bolt strike. Dies to water shuriken though. But it forces out a switch if it's locked to anything else.

4. Landorus-T. Anything but defensive gets 2HKO'd by V-create. AKA its not a switch in.

5. Tapu lele. Outspeeds even scarf and OHKOs with V-create. It can also actually take a couple of hits.

Calc:
252 Atk Victini V-create vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Lele: 312-367 (111 - 130.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

6. Tapu koko. outsped and has a 93.8% at OHKO-ing

Calcs:
252 Atk Victini V-create vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko: 280-331 (99.6 - 117.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

I think the only two sweepers it cannot reliably check are Zygarde and Hawlucha (+2 Acro is a roll in Victini's favor tho)

Moveset:

V-create is a must. I think U-turn has great utility on a set such as scarf. Bolt strike is also very nice to be able to revenge kill greninja and 2HKO Tox. The last slot is up to personal preference. Zen Headbutt makes Victini a much more reliable late-game sweeper as V-create's knockback stats ruin that and Bolt Strike doesn't hit too hard on neutral. Another option could be Trick, which is personally my favorite, and it allows Victini to annoy some of annoying mons such as Heatran, Zygarde Tapu Fini or Tox and effectively cripple them. Hell you can even run Glaciate and 2HKO Lando-T and Zygarde with no SpA investment required.

Momentum & Partners

I actually think Victini forces a LOT of switches and the amount of momentum you get with U-turn is crazy, and can be capitalized on with the right partners. Heatran, the most common switch in, can be U-turn'd on which gives you a FREE greninja switch and a FREE specs hydro pump. Water pokemon such as Tapu Fini or Toxapex can also be U-turn'd on (if you don't feel like risking Bolt Strike) which again is a free switch to a Tapu Koko or Tapu Lele which both usually get a kill from a specs move.

I also think that Trick is actually a great move because it doesn't only help Victini but also helps the wallbreaker on your team (which again, I think wallbreakers are the best partners to Victini) because for example it can cripple the Heatran that Tapu Lele is struggling with, or can cripple the Toxapex that Greninja is struggling with, etc. etc.

I think B is a great place for Victini, as it does suffer from many weaknesses such as V-create's knockback, SR weakness, and not being that good of late game sweeper or that hard hitting on defensive teams.

For future reference, you shouldn't really write nominations as tutorials, most people here already know what the pokemon do, so there's really no need. As for the actual nomination, Scarf isn't really it's best set, Banded has much better breaking potential, and Z Celebrate (probably it's best set) is much better as a cleaner. If we were to raise Victini, which I don't think we really should, considering nothing really changed for the mon as of late, it'd be off one of those sets, more likely Z Celebrate.

 

[Deleted User 400951]

My nom:
View attachment 107585A- to B- or C+
As much as I really hate to say it, Chansey stinks in OU. Stall is out of relevance in OU with the three good stallers being Stall Gastrodon, Quagsire and Unaware Clefable. All she can really do is form some cores in OU other than stalling and that's pretty much it for her.

Also echoing Wheitron's nom of Bisharp down. I've been nomming this thing down for forever lol but like it's seen zero success out of webs - it provides almost nothing defensively for a steel which hurts its splashability, is reliant on 50/50s half the time and is still incredibly slow. In theory it's an incredible stall breaker but in practice you're better off using something that isn't as bad against like most other archetypes lol. Just drop it down with webs since that's where it truly shines.

Speaking of outclassed breakers I literally forgot that Mawile-Mega was in A- lol and frankly it's long overdue for a drop. As we saw in the replays Indigo Plateau posted, teams naturally tend to have at least one good defensive answer to it nowadays, whether it's defensive Lando-T or Tran or whatever. It's also a case where it can't make full use of its typing because it's just so frail - pre-mega it dies to pretty much any special attack and that really limits its ability to get in and mega. It's hard to get it in to Mega and when it does, it's just not that effective at its role. It should be a subrank below Mega Medi, whose typing and speed make it much more suited to the role of breaking balance.

pretty much every change I'd make has already been nommed :D, peace

 

[BlueLobster]

Alright this might seem a bit of a big drop but Latios B+ --> C+

Right now, there is pretty much no reason to use this thing for several reasons. The biggest reason is it's mega does every non scarfed set better. With megas not being mandatory this gen, most builds can afford to use mega latios, with right now it the best set being the EQ set that is used to counter tran. Mega latios arguably pulls this off better than it's non mega counterpart due to a higher attack stat allowing it to not only hit what it needs to slightly harder than LO latios with EQ, but also not take any LO recoil, making it have more longevity. It in no way deserves to share a rank with it's mega. My next reason is it's scarf set is pretty bad right now. There are many better scarfers and defoggers in the meta, including probably the best at both kartana, which give latios a lot of competition for a teamslot. It's nothing like pre USUM where we took any defogger we could get, and it hasn't had a big enough drop since then to reflect that. It's STABs are really bad, draco is of a bad typing and forces you to switch, allowing you to be pursuit trapped easily, while psychic might have it's plus points, it doesn't help it get past the steels that wall it's stabs and also invites ttar in to trap it. Sure it has trick to help out V steels, but then you lose your scarfer so can't revenge stuff, which latios is already painfully bad at. I would honestly say Latias is the better scarfer rn as scarf Latios is not doing anything offensively and healing wish is far more valuable, hence why I am nomming Latios to drop below it. Alternatively, Latias could rise with Latios going to B-, but I'm not sure Latias deserves to rise or that Latios deserves to be higher than C+ as neither is a brilliant pick. At the very least, they should both be B- as Latias is definitely not worse than Latios right now. I honestly have no idea why this is still up in B+ with actually decent mons that have valid niches like it's mega, torn-t and msab when it's far more comparable to the other subpar dragons like Dragonite and Hydreigon in C+ in that you will probably never use them over a better mon that does a similar thing. It's just in an awful spot and I have not considered using it on a serious team since very early in the meta. Get this trash mon dropped down to a rank that reflects how bad it is.

Edit: Adding this quote from a few pages back to some up why it should be lower than Latias:

Scarf Latias is, arguably, the superior choice over Scarf Latios on a lot of teams just because Healing Wish gives teams a second chance to create havoc. While its power is certainly lower than Latios's, the utility presented by Healing Wish gives offensive teams capabilities to make more reckless plays with breakers and cleaners such as Mega Medicham, Ash-Greninja, and Shift Gear Magearna. It certainly has a greater purpose on teams than 90% of the C+ below Pokemon.

 

[Adri]

What concretely has changed with MMawile ? Kartana has been played a lot for quite a long time now, so the competition with it is not a change. Offensive Landorus-T was more popular in early SM than now, so that can't be the problem either. For instance, Flyinium/Rockium sets were two times more common one year ago than now. So Mawile doesn't face that much of a competition with offensive Lando atm.
You all spoke about Latias-M by the way... But isn't Mega-Mawile a mon that can take a huge advantage from this rising mon ?
The reasons to use Mawile over Medicham are numerous: the first destroys stall when medicham struggles a lot because of MSableye, Mawile can set up rocks, has SD to destroy stall even more, has a better and more reliable priority than Fake out in Sucker punch, which can even be boosted by SD to threaten Offense a lot...
But we already know all of this. The real "important" thing in my opinion is that Mawile is very good right now. Balanced teams are especially frequent right now, which gives Mawile a lot of opportunities to set-up. Mons like reuniclus are rising, not even mentioning Clefable which is like absolutely everywhere and fails to 4HKO Mawile (and even with flamethrower, it depends on Mawile's spread).
I definitely don't think Mawile should drop, at least not because of current meta trends. If it has to drop, then it should be because it was "overrated", which I sincerely doubt it was.


I don't agree either with Latios dropping. Latios is still a pretty cool mon. Yes latias' healing wish is usually better than having more power, but it isn't useful in any team, and latios still has some other advantages: it is far better with a z-move (being able to lure Celesteela but also Heatran), the scarf is better if you only want a good revenge killer and don't need healing wish (like in Cdumas' team here: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-354997
In this teams, most of the mons can heal themselves, so Healing wish wouldn't be especially good while better offensive presence is very appreciable, as well as the possibility to have trick or lure Tran with EQ)
Trick is also very useful right now as balanced teams are pretty much everywhere. When you play Tias, you run healing wish (otherwise Latios is better). And if you run healing wish, you don't have Trick (unless you don't run defog, but being a fast defogger is pretty much the role of lati@s).
Latios can actually threaten balanced with trick, while Latias fails to do so (come on, taking a 110 BS stab is not that difficult right now, especially with mons like celesteela/Ferrothorn being so common).
So no, for me, Latios shouldn't drop. Instead, Latias should rise at least to B, maybe even B+. Because that mon is not as bad as mimikyu or blacephalon which simply are deadweights in this meta. And if you don't want Latias to rise, then drop Mimikyu and Blacephalon please. Mimikyu is worse than ever with all these Balanced around (seriously, that mon is only a counter to offense, it doesn't do anything to fat teams). And blacephalon, well... Not fast enough without a scarf, lacks power when scarfed, can't bypass Toxapex without Rocks + Specs (or specs + psychic but the opponent will just switch into a steel/dark mon). Heatran is also very common currently and Blacephalon doesn't beat it very easily.

 

[Flame from Heaven]

Just going to go through nominations people made so far.

from B to B+: Agree
Gengar is really slept on atm. The Z Hex set is practically unwallable outside of AV Magearna, which is very easy to wear down. A lot of common defensive backbones such as BuluTran, Celepex, and Bulupex just get destroyed by Gengar. Although it does face quite a bit of competition from other wallbreakers, I feel it is very good in its own right, making B+ justified.

from B+ to B: Agree
This thing is honestly garbage. It fails in literally every role it had. It is an awful Koko check, as thanks to its lack of Regenerator, Koko will just Volt Switch into something that forces out Venu and you will never get an opportunity to Synthesis back up to full HP. It is also a garbage Ash Greninja check too, as one flinch from Dark Pulse after rocks, and "well, shit." You then die and then you lost the game. Unless if you are for some reason super worried about Mawile and SG Magearna, (Mawile is really bad atm because Heatran and Lando are super splashable, and SG Magearna can be reasonably well by Amoonguss and Tangrowth,) there is no reason to ad Venu to your team.

from B+ to B: Agree
Keldeo is really bad atm. Many teams have no trouble walling even the Calm Mind Taunt set thanks to AV Bulu's insane popularity. As a stall breaker, there is very little reason to use it over something like Lele, Hoopa U, or Landorus Therian. The only real thing it has over these mons is it acting as a decent switch in to Heatran, but it isn't even that good at that considering you are switching in twice tops. Tapu Fini growing in popularity isn't doing this thing any favors either.

from A+ to S-: Agree
Magearna is Meta Defining and deserves to be put in S- alongside Heatran, Kartana, and Toxapex. AV is the go to choice for a bulky steel on most teams. Many teams also are really sleeping on SG Magearna atm, especially the Electrium Z set. It completely blows away Pex and can also break Bulu and Heatran with Focus Blast and Ice Beam. Thanks to Scarf Blacephalon being really bad atm, there are few ways to reliably revenge kill Magearna atm.

from B+ to B: Agree
Charizard X is in a tough spot atm because of defensive Landorus Therian and bulky scarf Lando have insane usage atm. It also requires a ton of support, and it doesn't exactly pay of either; it doesn't excel in any match up. Tapu Fini is also gaining usage and popularity, which Charizard X hates.

from C+ to B-: Agree
Hippowdon is criminally underrated in C+. It is one of the few reliable checks to KokoLucha. Overall, it is a nice role compression tool for teams that need an electric check, ground check, rocker, and a Lucha Check in one slot. Saying Hippowdon is as bad as Manphy and Manetric is incorrect.

from B+ to C+: Disagree
I do actually agree with the idea of dropping Latios, but I do disagree with dropping it this many subranks. Latios, while bad atm, is a nice tool for offensive teams that need a check to most Water Types as well as Zapdos, giving it a niche over Kartana. I think the best thing to do here is to give Latias a raise to B and drop Latios to B too.
Now for a nomination of my own.

from C+ to C
This thing is complete garbage. Legitmately, what niche does this have over Koko. Fire coverage, you say? The only thing you are actually beating with Fire Coverage is Ferrothorn. Tapu Bulu just gets all of its HP back with Horn Leech, Specs Koko does a similar amount to Magearna with Thunderbolt, and you don't even 2HKO Tangrowth with Overheat. It is also a garbage Ash Greninja Check because it dies to Water Shuriken after some chip.
TLDR, No reason to be used over Koko, send this shitmon to C where it belongs.

 

[BlueLobster]

I don't agree either with Latios dropping. Latios is still a pretty cool mon. Yes latias' healing wish is usually better than having more power, but it isn't useful in any team, and latios still has some other advantages: it is far better with a z-move (being able to lure Celesteela but also Heatran), the scarf is better if you only want a good revenge killer and don't need healing wish (like in Cdumas' team here: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-354997
In this teams, most of the mons can heal themselves, so Healing wish wouldn't be especially good while better offensive presence is very appreciable, as well as the possibility to have trick or lure Tran with EQ)
Trick is also very useful right now as balanced teams are pretty much everywhere. When you play Tias, you run healing wish (otherwise Latios is better). And if you run healing wish, you don't have Trick (unless you don't run defog, but being a fast defogger is pretty much the role of lati@s).
Latios can actually threaten balanced with trick, while Latias fails to do so (come on, taking a 110 BS stab is not that difficult right now, especially with mons like celesteela/Ferrothorn being so common).
So no, for me, Latios shouldn't drop. Instead, Latias should rise at least to B, maybe even B+. Because that mon is not as bad as mimikyu or blacephalon which simply are deadweights in this meta. And if you don't want Latias to rise, then drop Mimikyu and Blacephalon please. Mimikyu is worse than ever with all these Balanced around (seriously, that mon is only a counter to offense, it doesn't do anything to fat teams). And blacephalon, well... Not fast enough without a scarf, lacks power when scarfed, can't bypass Toxapex without Rocks + Specs (or specs + psychic but the opponent will just switch into a steel/dark mon). Heatran is also very common currently and Blacephalon doesn't beat it very easily.

Yeah I was possibly a little harsh on Latios in my last post, it definitely has some uses over Latias, such as being a better revenger and Z move sets as you said, but I still think B+ is far too high for it. In your post, you seem to have forgotten the existence of mega Latios, which is arguably the better Heatran lure than Latios (you don't have to mega straight away to bluff scarf or something like electricium, so it lures tran just as well as regular latios). Yes it has Z moves in it's favour, but I don't think that is enough of a niche to warrant sharing a rank with mega Latios, who is basically better at the most effective sets. Also, I know usage isn't a solid argument, but scarf Latios holds over 60% of the high ladder (1825) latios sets, with the next highest being soul dew at nearly 12%, and to my knowledge Z latios hasn't done anything notable in tournament play, which makes it hard to justify as a notable set, even less using it as justification to remain in B+ alongside the proven mega Latios.
Moving on to the scarf Latias thing, yes there are times Latios is the better pick like in the team you posted the replay of, but I find it hard to believe that Latios is the better pick enough of the time to keep it above Latias, as many of the teams Lati finds itself on are offensively inclined, and could do with a lifeline more than a little more power. Latias can also run 3 support moves if the team warrants it to (although I doubt this is better than the standard set) so that it isn't a deadweight against balance. I also find dual scarfs with Latias can be effective, in the team I used Latias in, I ran trick + healing wish alongside scarf kartana, who was given the roles of defogging and revenging. Latios may be able to revenge better than Latias but it definitely isn't as good at supporting the team, and overall I find Latias to generally be the better pick.
Regarding the ranks, I do reckon I was a little harsh regarding them, I think having them in B/B- would be the best solution (either both in the same rank or Latias one higher, I just feel it is the better pick most of the time), as Latios is not as bad as the trash in C+ (damn I'd forgotten how bad the lower end of that lot is).

On the other discussion points:
Agreeing with a drop for Blace and Mimikyu, both are very subpar mons in the meta and I've said this since they started out, idk why they were so overrated for so long. I don't see a point in elaborating as I discuss why I dislike these mons way too much.
Hippo to B-: Agree. Why is this thing still so low? It's a great KokoLucha check, it's a good bulky mon that has been slept on way too much. I feel like this has way more respect among the players than is represented by it's extremely low rank, and should've risen a while back.
Keldeo to B: Agree. Keld, like Latios, seems to have found itself in a tough spot since their scarf sets became a lot worse. Keld has CM taunt which makes it a reasonable stallbreaker, but it's really easy to wear down and while it has uses on a couple of teams, it's just not as good as the other B+ mons, and could do with dropping.
MMane to C: Agree, maybe even C-. This thing only ever gets used in electric spam, which I don't think is ever used for good reason: it doesn't really work. The most solid electric checks (Hippo, AV Bulu, Gastro) just don't care about it and are hard to wear down, and for use over Koko it has the niche of outspeeding Ash Gren and having overheat. Ash gren's just going to shuriken you and Mane will often be in range late game, and overheat doesn't really help it much, while it allows it to weaken Bulu. it can just horn leech which is going to heal back a big chunk of what you dealt, especially with that nasty SpA drop. It can put in work against Koko weak teams, but that's why you have Koko and this mon is just really redundant. I'd rather run the horrible Raichu-A, which says enough.

 

[Felixx]

Just going to go through nominations people made so far.
View attachment 107683from B to B+: Agree
Gengar is really slept on atm. The Z Hex set is practically unwallable outside of AV Magearna, which is very easy to wear down. A lot of common defensive backbones such as BuluTran, Celepex, and Bulupex just get destroyed by Gengar. Although it does face quite a bit of competition from other wallbreakers, I feel it is very good in its own right, making B+ justified.
View attachment 107684from B+ to B: Agree
This thing is honestly garbage. It fails in literally every role it had. It is an awful Koko check, as thanks to its lack of Regenerator, Koko will just Volt Switch into something that forces out Venu and you will never get an opportunity to Synthesis back up to full HP. It is also a garbage Ash Greninja check too, as one flinch from Dark Pulse after rocks, and "well, shit." You then die and then you lost the game. Unless if you are for some reason super worried about Mawile and SG Magearna, (Mawile is really bad atm because Heatran and Lando are super splashable, and SG Magearna can be reasonably well by Amoonguss and Tangrowth,) there is no reason to ad Venu to your team.
View attachment 107685from B+ to B: Agree
Keldeo is really bad atm. Many teams have no trouble walling even the Calm Mind Taunt set thanks to AV Bulu's insane popularity. As a stall breaker, there is very little reason to use it over something like Lele, Hoopa U, or Landorus Therian. The only real thing it has over these mons is it acting as a decent switch in to Heatran, but it isn't even that good at that considering you are switching in twice tops. Tapu Fini growing in popularity isn't doing this thing any favors either.
View attachment 107686 from A+ to S-: Agree
Magearna is Meta Defining and deserves to be put in S- alongside Heatran, Kartana, and Toxapex. AV is the go to choice for a bulky steel on most teams. Many teams also are really sleeping on SG Magearna atm, especially the Electrium Z set. It completely blows away Pex and can also break Bulu and Heatran with Focus Blast and Ice Beam. Thanks to Scarf Blacephalon being really bad atm, there are few ways to reliably revenge kill Magearna atm.
View attachment 107688from B+ to B: Agree
Charizard X is in a tough spot atm because of defensive Landorus Therian and bulky scarf Lando have insane usage atm. It also requires a ton of support, and it doesn't exactly pay of either; it doesn't excel in any match up. Tapu Fini is also gaining usage and popularity, which Charizard X hates.
View attachment 107689from C+ to B-: Agree
Hippowdon is criminally underrated in C+. It is one of the few reliable checks to KokoLucha. Overall, it is a nice role compression tool for teams that need an electric check, ground check, rocker, and a Lucha Check in one slot. Saying Hippowdon is as bad as Manphy and Manetric is incorrect.
View attachment 107690from B+ to C+: Disagree
I do actually agree with the idea of dropping Latios, but I do disagree with dropping it this many subranks. Latios, while bad atm, is a nice tool for offensive teams that need a check to most Water Types as well as Zapdos, giving it a niche over Kartana. I think the best thing to do here is to give Latias a raise to B and drop Latios to B too.
Now for a nomination of my own.
View attachment 107691 from C+ to C
This thing is complete garbage. Legitmately, what niche does this have over Koko. Fire coverage, you say? The only thing you are actually beating with Fire Coverage is Ferrothorn. Tapu Bulu just gets all of its HP back with Horn Leech, Specs Koko does a similar amount to Magearna with Thunderbolt, and you don't even 2HKO Tangrowth with Overheat. It is also a garbage Ash Greninja Check because it dies to Water Shuriken after some chip.
TLDR, No reason to be used over Koko, send this shitmon to C where it belongs.

M-Charizard X: B+ to B: Disagree
Zard basically takes advantage of all the fat steels/grasses running around such as M-Sciz, Ferro, Mag, Zone, Tang and Bulu by switching in to them and hitting them with a strong Flare Blitz which will heavily chip defensive Lando, and it can smack Heatran and sp. def Pex with EQ, Tran goes down instantly while Pex struggles to eat the hit. See, the massive pressure Lele puts on teams basically forces you to run a steel type (or AV Bulu) to not get smacked. Also, the most splashable and consistent scarfer right now is Kartana, which allows Zard to get free hits off. And while Fini is getting some more usage, let's not forget that it's still a mostly mediocre mon, and Zard X will actually outlast Fini because of reliable recovery in roost, and Tyranitar usage has definitely lessened quite a bit (no do not drop Ttar to A). Now as for its other defensive checks, well Hippo is easy to abuse because its so passive (Solid mon tho, rise it to B-) while Quag only fits on Stall and Dragon Claw + Flare Blitz + EQ pp > Recover pp so you stall it out, just play around Pex switching in. So yes, keep Zard X in A+ for its ability to abuse a lot defensive mons.

 

[Altervisi]

So just to give my thoughts on whats been nommed since my last post.

Latios B+ -> B Agree
Latios should drop to B definitely, this thing sucks to use, it's only somewhat effective with a Choice item, but even then you're running two or three moves that suck to get locked into (Draco Meteor and Defog mainly). There's much less competition for the Mega-Slot nowadays, so this is a preferable option over Specs to boost SpAtk and yes, I think Latias is better for Scarf right now. This is thanks to the presence of a lot more Bulky Offense teams appreciating Healing Wish and the fact that Latios' Defog is no longer a stand out benefit, with the wide distribution of the move. C+ is far too much to drop however.

Tyranitar A -> A- Disagree
Tyranitar should stay A, fuck Zapdos. I'm not a big fan of using Tyranitar myself to be honest, but its impact on every game is undeniable and as has been said, it just rips all but the bulkiest of resists a new hole. Pursuit is great and a few useful things like Sand against rain and the fact it is now somewhat less predictable, thanks to Mega-Tyranitar actually being good, balances out the drawbacks of Hippowdon, Gliscor, Kartana, Hawlucha and Medicham (I would just like to say none of these like being caught on the switch).

Bisharp B- -> C+/- Disagree
Bisharp sucks yes, but B- reflects that pretty well in my opinion, it is not on the same meme level as Ditto and Shuckle in C+. Defog has risen, and while yes Webs as a HO variant suffers because of this, Bisharp doesn't necessarily and just the presence of Bisharp on your team will discourage your opponent from clicking Defog mindlessly. Getting an attack boost from Landorus-T's Intimidate is great and STAB Sucker Punch is still a great move in such a fast meta.

Hippowdon C+ -> B- Agree
Amazing wall, which has a few niches over Landorus-T like being a better KokoLucha check, Sand chip and having reliable recovery in Slack Off. I don't think anyone disagrees with this nom.

All the other nominations I'm either on the fence about or I don't have enough experience to comment on.

Edit: Just to add something, can we avoid nomming drops/raises more than one sub-rank unless there is a very very solid reason for it. Chansey to C+ because 'it stinks' is the furthest thing from a useful contribution since Blacephalon was added to the tier.