Resource USUM OU ULTRA Viability Ranking Thread

[wheitron]

These two:

(currently B+)

I can kinda see why you wouldn't rank them with stuff like M-medi, M-maw and M-pinsir in A-, but I also think they're definitely better than most other things in B+ like M-zam, Blace (lol), Latios, Venusaur, ... Seeing how A- also has Chansey, Gliscor, regular Gren and Magnezone I can actually see the faces of Rain fit in there quite nicely.

The playstyle has been consistently good ever since M-pert got released and never really slowed down. It's performed well in a couple of matches in SPL and even though everyone knows what they do by now, you still can't afford to build a team that isn't prepared for them because you will absolutely lose more often than you'd like.

As for meta trends:

This thing getting Defog is pretty frickin nice. I already ran Rain with Flynium-Z Torn in SuMo, but you're pretty much obligated to slap Defog on Pelipper in that case, which reduces its durability over the course of a match, or put it on Koko which sucks even harder. Well, not any more! This bird has been praised enough over the last couple of pages, but I'd just like to mention that it's yet another option you have now when building rain besides A-Gren (specs or Waterium), KokoLucha, Kingdra, ...

I'm interested in your thoughts on this. I could see why you might not want to raise them, but I feel like B+ is underselling one of the playstyles that definitely is one of the more important ones in OU. (For reference: M-sab is also B+, and Stall imo is way less potent than Rain)

I could post some SPL games, but I think everybody pretty much knows how Rain works by now.

Im gonna have to disagree with this, rain is not the same thing it was when Mega Pert was released, toxapex, kart, ferro and stuff like dat got a super surge in usage and some of them even a new ranking, i dont see rain going up anytime soon, tbh of anything it shud go down.

Abt sableye and rain in high ladder :

Pelipper - #44 in OU | Usage: 3.93433% | Raw count: 180,430 | Weight: 0.00424448729816

Sableye-Mega - #18 in OU | Usage: 9.15204% | Raw count: 127,846 | Weight: 0.0138886160403

Some useful info for comparison

 

[Fishfood1234]

Gonna have to agree with the hawlucha rise from A>A+ I freaking hate this thing, and find it by far the most broken mon right now. At least when naganadel was everywhere you had scarf gren as a guaranteed offensive answer after it got a kill.....

 

[Finchinator]

Gonna have to agree with the hawlucha rise from A>A+ I freaking hate this thing, and find it by far the most broken mon right now. At least when naganadel was everywhere you had scarf gren as a guaranteed offensive answer after it got a kill.....

I’m glad you are weighing in with your opinion, but I think it is worth noting that for you and all future newer posters, the substance of quantifying a Pokémon as broken/banworthy and comparing it to something that no longer resides in the tier does not do the best in actually arguing for a specific viability. It’s best to put it in the context of the current metagame — I.e: provide examples of why hawlucha does so well rn! Just for future reference man

 

[Colonel M]

In light of the posts, though, I think it is best to avert attention away from Hawlucha and potentially discuss other Pokemon to rise and fall throughout the tier.

View attachment 101596 Mega Gallade: C+--> C
This thing doesn't have any reason to be used whatsoever w/ better fighting types like Loppuny, Keldeo, and Mega Medicham. Its weak w/o SD boosts and even then, a ton of common mons still beat it.

Even if you suggested it to C- I would disagree. Mega Gallade has a few niche advantages over Medicham and Lopunny in the current metagame. Mega Gallade has an easier time breaking through Mew, Toxapex, and Clefable who otherwise will check Lopunny or Medicham. Furthermore, Gallade has a fairly relevant Speed tier since it gets the jump on SD Kartana and, at worst, ties [Mega] Lati@s. It's definitely not the greatest Mega out there, but holds a good niche.

Current metagame trends make me believe this Pokemon belongs in C+, since a lot of C+ mons have situational or niche reasons to be used but are either in low demand or face stiff competition.

Im gonna have to disagree with this, rain is not the same thing it was when Mega Pert was released, toxapex, kart, ferro and stuff like dat got a super surge in usage and some of them even a new ranking, i dont see rain going up anytime soon, tbh of anything it shud go down.

Abt sableye and rain in high ladder :

Pelipper - #44 in OU | Usage: 3.93433% | Raw count: 180,430 | Weight: 0.00424448729816

Sableye-Mega - #18 in OU | Usage: 9.15204% | Raw count: 127,846 | Weight: 0.0138886160403

Some useful info for comparison

Heavily disagree with rain dropping, but will at least agree that rain is not quite up-to-snuff for A- either. Though, I would lean closer to rising than dropping. Rain has had some versatility this generation now that it has additions such as Ash-Gren, Tapu Koko, Hawlucha, and Pelipper. Z Moves have helped out some niche rain sweepers like Kabutops too. Current metagame trends within tournaments have a lot of teams that remain vulnerable to the archetype, and while there are certainly teams more prepped for it than others, I would not be so bold to drop it to B either. Mega Pert and Pelipper are fine in B+. A- I think slightly oversell Rain, but my issue would be rain over some mons like Tornadus-T. B is way too low for an archetype that has quite a bit of flexibility and power this generation.

I think this was brought back a few pages ago, but want to discuss this nomination too;

Magearna to S-

To some this may seem like a stretch, and for what it's worth I can definitely see why. But recently Magearna has been doing phenomenal work within SPL and has had some decisive victories due to teams underprepping for Shift Gear Magearna. Assault Vest Magearna is still an awesome fit for a lot of teams and keeps Tapu Lele from overdominating some of them as well. Z Electric in Electric Terrain and Z Fighting are fairly potent at the moment, and using Calm Mind or Hidden Power over Focus Blast has still lead victories. Even Z Fleur is pretty solid if you can overwhelm Toxapex with other teammates or run Thunderbolt.

I feel Magearna currently shows a strong metagame influence both offensively and defensively. With one or the other I could see where A+ makes more sense. In combination to each Other, though, I feel Magearna' S versatility helps push it to S-.

 

[Discharged Xurkitree]

Magearna A+ -> S- Agreed

I think Magearna has sorta become a glue on many teams, like being able to be a blanket check to Several mons such as Tapu Koko and Lele, Ash-Ninja, Kyurem-B, and Z-Move Hoopa for example. That's just AV, It becomes unpredictable with Double Dance or Shift Gear sets blazing through teams without an adequate check. Magearna definitely could fit in most teams as a sweeper or special wall, and as Colonel M said, is one of the most versatile Steel types, kinda like Heatran. I think the two are definitely comparable in terms of usefulness and versatility.

 

[wheitron]

Magearna A+ to S- agreed
I think we shud of had done this a lil ago tbh, but this mon is absolutly amazing and splashble, when i think of BO i think of two faces foshu, one being lando and the other AV mage. Also as stated by Coronel M. there has been underprep for SG, the way this mon is good in so many MUs ( fun fact best SG mage check is AV mage itself), so yeah, rise this monster

 

[Nuked]

Yeah I agree with Magearna to S-, it just seems like the best rank for it when you weigh in its effect on the meta and how good it is compared to the majority of A+. It has a staggering amount of viable sets which combined push it over A+ in my opinion, and makes it more of a meta-defining threat than other 'mons like Ferrothorn and Ash-Greninja. Additionally I could compare Magearna very closely with other S- mons like Heatran and Kartana in terms of viability and usage.

 

[Thunder Pwoell]

I'm nominating the emperor pig himself to go from UR->C rank.

Now I know what you're thinking:"blah blah wtf blah blah hes a meme blah blah outclassed." So let me just show you and remind you that it has very good mixed attacking stats and high hp and is a stall killing champion

-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Reckless Emboar Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Landorus-Therian: 196-232 (51.3 - 60.7%) -- 92.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Reckless Emboar Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Landorus-Therian in Sun: 295-348 (77.2 - 91%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Reckless Emboar Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex: 206-244 (67.7 - 80.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Reckless Emboar Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex in Sun: 155-183 (50.9 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Flame Plate Reckless Emboar Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Sableye-Mega: 246-289 (81.1 - 95.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios in Sun: 363-428 (120.5 - 142.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Latias in Sun: 328-387 (90.1 - 106.3%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
And you also can run mixed, which I recc
50 SpA Emboar Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Quagsire: 340-404 (86.2 - 102.5%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery

Now that we've gotten those out of the way, what makes him better than victini or darmanitan- mixed for darm since Darm does a little bit more at the expense of being frailer and only attacking.
-1 252 Atk Choice Band Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Landorus-Therian: 213-252 (55.7 - 65.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery, and it just does way more than victini. And CB tini is v uncommon now. If ur going scarf, however, Id use darm.
It's clearly a wall breaker and with the right support can do very very well in ou. Once It's in, most likely something drops or takes over half.
Now for the replays... which are def high-quality
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-703556239 - one would say this a bad matchup but the pig came through
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-703579576 - v wishkillers team it does extremely well (balance), even flexed on a keldeo
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-703585318 - v standard ou, emboar comes in on kartana at any time and will wall it to the high heavens, esp if ur z emboar. #PraiseThePig #MOUGA

P.s. it obviously kills stall But I wanted to show you how it embarrassed HTCL stall - http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-703727881

 

[Swagodile]

Garchomp: B ---> B- (maybe even C+)

Garchomp is severely outclassed at anything it tries to do in the current meta, and almost all of the Pokemon in B are better than it. Hell, even some in B- like Mamoswine, Mega Hera, and Mimikyu have niches that make them more useful than Garchomp. It would honestly be right at home in C+ with stuff like Araquanid and Alolan Marowak.

Mega Charizard Y & Hippowdon: C+ ---> B-

If things like Tapu Fini and Terrakion are in B-, then Mega Charizard Y and Hippowdon definitely belong there. Zard Y is still a powerful special wallbreaker, and Hippowdon is still a Stealth Rock and sand setter with reliable recovery.

 

[aogalicia]

Garchomp: B ---> B- (maybe even C+)

Garchomp is severely outclassed at anything it tries to do in the current meta, and almost all of the Pokemon in B are better than it. Hell, even some in B- like Mamoswine, Mega Hera, and Mimikyu have niches that make them more useful than Garchomp. It would honestly be right at home in C+ with stuff like Araquanid and Alolan Marowak.

Mega Charizard Y & Hippowdon: C+ ---> B-

If things like Tapu Fini and Terrakion are in B-, then Mega Charizard Y and Hippowdon definitely belong there. Zard Y is still a powerful special wallbreaker, and Hippowdon is still a Stealth Rock and sand setter with reliable recovery.

I don’t believe just looking at what’s in the subrank would justify a ‘mon to drop. Zard Y is good but the amount of Toxapex in the tier makes it less viable.
I agree that Hippo should raise with being such a fat wall. Also Garchomp is fine where it’s at.

 

[Thunder Pwoell]

I don’t believe just looking at what’s in the subrank would justify a ‘mon to drop. Zard Y is good but the amount of Toxapex in the tier makes it less viable.
I agree that Hippo should raise with being such a fat wall. Also Garchomp is fine where it’s at.

yall really act like other mons don't exist on a team. Zard y does really well in this tier given support for toxapex, which mind you, walls most of the tier (27/~50) bar psychic or electric types. Hell spdef pex can wall a latios. Stop with that please.. Yall act like toxapex is the centre of the metagame and determines every other mons viability.

 

[Garou]

yall really act like other mons don't exist on a team. Zard y does really well in this tier given support for toxapex, which mind you, walls most of the tier (27/~50) bar psychic or electric types. Hell spdef pex can wall a latios. Stop with that please.. Yall act like toxapex is the centre of the metagame and determines every other mons viability.

I think he meant that toxapex is used a lot and because of its prevalence and how hard it checks char y it's limiting the viability of char y, especially considering the absence of arena trap duggy from the tier which was the main way for char y teams to easily deal with toxapex. With toxapex easily being able to switch into char y it doesn't have to stay in on would be checks to it, unlike with duggy where it was trapped, thus making its prevalence a huge roadblock to the viability of Char y

 

[robopoke]

yall really act like other mons don't exist on a team. Zard y does really well in this tier given support for toxapex, which mind you, walls most of the tier (27/~50) bar psychic or electric types. Hell spdef pex can wall a latios. Stop with that please.. Yall act like toxapex is the centre of the metagame and determines every other mons viability.

Toxapex does determine every other mons viability in either a good or bad away. Many mons can somehow play around Toxapex as switch-in. Greninja can click Spikes or grab Momentum with U-Turn, Mega Lopunny can Frustration twice and encore the Recover, Volcarona can use Z-Psychic, Scizor can U-Turn or Knock off its item and actually win against Pex without Haze. Ok Specs Keldeo sux but you can use CM+Taunt to use Pex as setupfodder. Even SubCM can do well if you remove Toxapex item first. You actually win that scenario if Toxapex switches in and you get a Scaldburn early.

The point is every one is affected by Toxapex but a mon like Zard Y who needs hazard removal 24/7 cannot really bypass Toxapex without gimick strats which is reflected in its viablity. Why support and build around a mon with removal and a mon that needs Focus Blast to be successfull when it cannot even break one of the best and most used mons in OU?

 

[Thunder Pwoell]

Toxapex does determine every other mons viability in either a good or bad away. Many mons can somehow play around Toxapex as switch-in. Greninja can click Spikes or grab Momentum with U-Turn, Mega Lopunny can Frustration twice and encore the Recover, Volcarona can use Z-Psychic, Scizor can U-Turn or Knock off its item and actually win against Pex without Haze. Ok Specs Keldeo sux but you can use CM+Taunt to use Pex as setupfodder. Even SubCM can do well if you remove Toxapex item first. You actually win that scenario if Toxapex switches in and you get a Scaldburn early.

The point is every one is affected by Toxapex but a mon like Zard Y who needs hazard removal 24/7 cannot really bypass Toxapex without gimick strats which is reflected in its viablity. Why support and build around a mon with removal and a mon that needs Focus Blast to be successfull when it cannot even break one of the best and most used mons in OU?

Again all of these rely on 1v1 strategies and still ignore my main point: you have teammates, this isnt boxing. You dont have to 1v1 every single mon. And having to mold your mon around one is unhealthy and also makes your mon weaker to outside shit. When a pex comes in on zard y I just switch: easy. Just carry a wall breaker or psychic mons or set up mons to pair. You are not alone.

 

[Garou]

Toxapex can switch too.

 

[matthewc20090]

the main problem that i see with zard y is that toxapex completely invalidates zardy's role as a wallbreaker. vs offensive teams zardy isn't going to be doing much simply because of its low speed and bulk and in oras this was fine bc it actually broke walls. however, now most fat teams run toxapex, so in reality zard's not putting in work vs fat cores either. this means that zard's only good matchup is vs fat teams without toxapex, which aren't that uncommon but with toxapex, chansey, and mega latios (to an extent) having a ton of usage on balance and bulky offense, zard y isnt breaking shit.

 

[Thunder Pwoell]

Toxapex can switch too.

the main problem that i see with zard y is that toxapex completely invalidates zardy's role as a wallbreaker. vs offensive teams zardy isn't going to be doing much simply because of its low speed and bulk and in oras this was fine bc it actually broke walls. however, now most fat teams run toxapex, so in reality zard's not putting in work vs fat cores either. this means that zard's only good matchup is vs fat teams without toxapex, which aren't that uncommon but with toxapex, chansey, and mega latios (to an extent) having a ton of usage on balance and bulky offense, zard y isnt breaking shit.

You seem to be theory monning here and not actually using zard y so I will ask you: Do you actually use Zard y? B/c if you did that is completely false unless your teambuilding skills are weak. However I'm going to be bold and just say that you just dont run zard y. I actually run
zard y and pex comes in a lot yes however that makes it very easy to wear down and once thats out the way its gone. Also all of those mons that you named are beaten by one mon, and naming mega latios was laughable. Lets see here :
252 SpA Charizard Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Latios-Mega in Sun: 102-121 (33.8 - 40.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock ... ya def not eatign it well.
Worth noting that regular latios gets 2hkoed and will have to roost. Again have teammates to deal with this.

Edit All high ladder(1925+) replays of zard y doing well but pex not causing a problem: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-683424353, https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-684486669, https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-684244322

and just for fun heres a high ladder replay of zard y breaking offense since it CLEARLY has trouble somehow: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-684058342 ,https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-683479975

It also worth noting, especially since you clearly have not use zard y, that many teams run mono weak to it. And the fact that i was able to find these is astounding, considering that most ppl in high ladder hide their rooms and ask not to save replay and what not. Really tired of yall overhyping pex

 

[Garou]

Toxapex has regenerator though and with its most common set being spdef...
Mega-Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex in Sun: 88-104 (28.9 - 34.2%) -- 2.3% chance to 3HKO

Even with rocks up its still not doing enough to whittle down Pex factoring in Black sludge and regen.
Also, say ur opponent switches in Pex u can bring in a Psy wall breaker sure, but then as I said u can just pivot out of Pex into magearna or something for the incoming lele or psychic mon/something else for whatever wallbreaker. The counter play to chary itself is high, and even with the element of switching into a checks for one of its checks that doesn't compensate for the counter play the toxapex player can reply with.

 

[BlueLobster]

Got to agree people are overdoing it with the pex walls char y shit, it still puts in work V fat teams. In gen 6 every fat team had chansey, but no one used that as an argument to it being bad and it was generally regarded to be a great wallbreaker. Pex is good but it's really not the only thing in the meta you have to break. Char y outspeeds all non scarfed lando t and KOs with fire blast after rocks, with a great chance without rocks too (75% for the defensive calc spread, which is outdated but w/e), but no one ever brings that up even though lando is higher than pex on the VR and in usage. Pretty sure omari p is the only person talking about it that actually uses it, most of this is obvious theorymonning and just "hurr durr pex walls it". This discussion is pointless and cancerous, mons can do well while being pex walled, it's not a good argument, especially for such a low ranked Mon as it is.
Edit: Also, switching and shit is gameplay, which is more related to the skill of the player than the viability of the Mon. We get it, char y doesn't 6-0 fat teams, things have walls, etc. That doesn't mean char y is bad.

 

[Garou]

Got to agree people are overdoing it with the pex walls char y shit, it still puts in work V fat teams. In gen 6 every fat team had chansey, but no one used that as an argument to it being bad and it was generally regarded to be a great wallbreaker. Pex is good but it's really not the only thing in the meta you have to break. Char y outspeeds all non scarfed lando t and KOs with fire blast after rocks, with a great chance without rocks too (75% for the defensive calc spread, which is outdated but w/e), but no one ever brings that up even though lando is higher than pex on the VR and in usage. Pretty sure omari p is the only person talking about it that actually uses it, most of this is obvious theorymonning and just "hurr durr pex walls it". This discussion is pointless and cancerous, mons can do well while being pex walled, it's not a good argument, especially for such a low ranked Mon as it is.
Edit: Also, switching and shit is gameplay, which is more related to the skill of the player than the viability of the Mon. We get it, char y doesn't 6-0 fat teams, things have walls, etc. That doesn't mean char y is bad.

Did you even watch the replays at all. I know how much it does lmao.

To number 1. It's not bad, but being a wallbreaker which is walked by toxapex is extremely detrimental to its viability, thus making it not very good
To number 2. Yeah I did but u still seem to think Pex can't switch in and out easily lol

 

[Gary]

Got to agree people are overdoing it with the pex walls char y shit, it still puts in work V fat teams. In gen 6 every fat team had chansey, but no one used that as an argument to it being bad and it was generally regarded to be a great wallbreaker.

This conversation is actually complete dogshit on both sides because its pretty much just throwing shots at each other instead of actually providing good logic, but I just wanted to post to refute how this point literally makes zero sense considering that you are comparing a Pokemon that was only really used on specific builds with Pex which is one of the most splashable defensive Pokemon in the tier. Obviously Zard-Y was way better last gen because it had limited defensive counterplay and its best switch-in was something that didn't really fit on most archetypes. Now you have one of the best Zard-Y counters in the game that is being used very frequently on some of the most commonly used archetypes. You can say "oh but it just switches out when Pex comes in" as much as you want but considering its practically seen zero success in high level tour play since Duggy was banned, it should at least give some indication that it's just not in a very good spot at all. Whether you want to accept it or not, Pex does in fact, effect its viability quite significantly. A Pokemon that is pressured heavily by rocks and struggles significantly to break one of the most splashable defensive Pokemon in the tier is just not going to see a lot of usage because its unreliable, and that's not what wins games. There are more consistent breakers out there that don't require nearly as much support and do their jobs better. No one is saying Zard-Y is unviable, they are just saying its not very good at what it does, and there is solid evidence to back that up unless you just choose to ignore anything tournament related and go by only what you see on the ladder.

Also the replays being presented were essentially just people throwing games and Zard-Y doing nothing, so I'm not sure how that's supposed to help.

 

[matthewc20090]

You seem to be theory monning here and not actually using zard y so I will ask you: Do you actually use Zard y? B/c if you did that is completely false unless your teambuilding skills are weak. However I'm going to be bold and just say that you just dont run zard y. I actually run
zard y and pex comes in a lot yes however that makes it very easy to wear down and once thats out the way its gone. Also all of those mons that you named are beaten by one mon, and naming mega latios was laughable. Lets see here :
252 SpA Charizard Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Latios-Mega in Sun: 102-121 (33.8 - 40.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock ... ya def not eatign it well.
Worth noting that regular latios gets 2hkoed and will have to roost. Again have teammates to deal with this.

Edit All high ladder(1925+) replays of zard y doing well but pex not causing a problem: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-683424353, https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-684486669, https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-684244322

and just for fun heres a high ladder replay of zard y breaking offense since it CLEARLY has trouble somehow: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-684058342 ,https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-683479975

ok lets go through these. first one the guy sacks his pex for absolutely no reason to a bolt strike when he has seismitoed altaria etc. next replay there isn't a pex which falls into the "fat teams that don't run pex". 3rd replay zard does literally nothing. last replay zard loses to keldeo+lop anyway. imo your replays show that zard's teammates are good if anything.

how is pex easy to wear down lol recover+regen basically makes it impossible for zard to do anything ever. if ur opponent's dumb enough to stay in vs hoopa with pex then its not zard that gave u the victory, its them literally giving you their pex.

 

[BlueLobster]

This conversation is actually complete dogshit on both sides because its pretty much just throwing shots at each other instead of actually providing good logic, but I just wanted to post to refute how this point literally makes zero sense considering that you are comparing a Pokemon that was only really used on specific builds with Pex which is one of the most splashable defensive Pokemon in the tier. Obviously Zard-Y was way better last gen because it had limited defensive counterplay and its best switch-in was something that didn't really fit on most archetypes. Now you have one of the best Zard-Y counters in the game that is being used very frequently on some of the most commonly used archetypes. You can say "oh but it just switches out when Pex comes in" as much as you want but considering its practically seen zero success in high level tour play since Duggy was banned, it should at least give some indication that it's just not in a very good spot at all. Whether you want to accept it or not, Pex does in fact, effect its viability quite significantly. A Pokemon that is pressured heavily by rocks and struggles significantly to break one of the most splashable defensive Pokemon in the tier is just not going to see a lot of usage because its unreliable, and that's not what wins games. There are more consistent breakers out there that don't require nearly as much support and do their jobs better. No one is saying Zard-Y is unviable, they are just saying its not very good at what it does, and there is solid evidence to back that up unless you just choose to ignore anything tournament related and go by only what you see on the ladder.

This will be my last post on it cause the argument is shit as you've said but the point of bringing up chansey was not to compare pex and chansey, but point out how overblown the pex point is. Zard's stall mu was good in gen 6 despite chansey. Yes pex is a bigger problem for it due to it being more splashable and having regenerator, but that's why zard is C+ and not like A- or whatever it was in gen 6. I just feel like pex is a really overstated point for any Mon, especially one that's already dropped like a whole rank solely because of this mon.

 

[Colonel M]

I think I'm almost ready to add Zard-Y...

Mega Tyranitar - A- => B+

Mon isnt bad still, but it has a lot of awkward issues. If Tar lacks a Fire-type move its pretty setup bait for SD Kartana and lacking Ice-type moves lets Lando-T and Gliscor in fairly free. Nevermind lacking Crunch or Stone Edge also presents a lot of issues. The best set still is the non-DD set IMO, which has some powerful advantages, but feel that Stealth Rock as a slot merely adds another restriction to the coverage moves Mega Tar really wants to topple its switch-ins. I feel its niche isn't quite enough to keep it in the same ranks as Chansey, Gliscor, Zapdos at this time, but It would not surprise me to see Mega Tar fluctuate back up a bit with Mega Latias being seen a little more lately and without Thunderbolt or Ice Beam Mega Latias cant do anything to Mega Tar (at least Ice Beam can fish for a freeze on the switch). Even with Thunderbolt and Ice Beam Mega Tar isnt taking shit from it though.

Definitely open to someone disagreeing as I'm sure there's something critical missing. Zapdos going up in usage a bit certainly helps its case for what It's worth.

 

[MANNAT]

I think I'm almost ready to add Zard-Y...

Mega Tyranitar - A- => B+

Mon isnt bad still, but it has a lot of awkward issues. If Tar lacks a Fire-type move its pretty setup bait for SD Kartana and lacking Ice-type moves lets Lando-T and Gliscor in fairly free. Nevermind lacking Crunch or Stone Edge also presents a lot of issues. The best set still is the non-DD set IMO, which has some powerful advantages, but feel that Stealth Rock as a slot merely adds another restriction to the coverage moves Mega Tar really wants to topple its switch-ins. I feel its niche isn't quite enough to keep it in the same ranks as Chansey, Gliscor, Zapdos at this time, but It would not surprise me to see Mega Tar fluctuate back up a bit with Mega Latias being seen a little more lately and without Thunderbolt or Ice Beam Mega Latias cant do anything to Mega Tar (at least Ice Beam can fish for a freeze on the switch). Even with Thunderbolt and Ice Beam Mega Tar isnt taking shit from it though.

Definitely open to someone disagreeing as I'm sure there's something critical missing. Zapdos going up in usage a bit certainly helps its case for what It's worth.

I wholeheartedly disagree with this nomination. The offensive rocks set is a fantastic teammate for sweepers like SD Kartana and Hawlucha that despise Zapdos. MegaTar's ability to set rocks versus some of the most commonly used reliable Defoggers in the tier (Zapdos, Gliscor, Mantine, etc.) is invaluable for the teams that it's on and its offensive presence is still very daunting, with max attack adamant edge being ruthlessly strong and Ice Punch slamming Lando, allowing teammates to blast through the opposing team. Also, its defensive presence, allowing it to hard check a lot of the tier's potentially threatening offensive Pokemon like Blacephalon, Choiced Lele, Latios, etc. makes it more than just deadweight in terms of defensive synergy for such teams. Lately, people spamming Zapdos because of Hawlucha being broken along with utility Tran being used makes Megatar really good right now. Also, the mega latias + pex balances being used in SPL get completely torn up by this thing. If you need an example of just how brutal Megatar can be against bulkier teams, this replay is all you need to see. Obviously the opponent didn't exactly play optimally, but they had nothing to deal with Megatar and it being able to set up its own rocks on Zapdos only compounded the issue. Megatar is far from being in a place where it should drop imo.