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Time to artificially rise Bibarel's usage. - Tauntarel
- Thread starter Bologo
- Start date
Heh, Aldaron, if you're wondering about the experience of the people that I've faced with this Bibarel...I've faced you with the team it was on. -.-
I only lost that match by 1%, so it can't be all that bad. I was going to warstory that match, but bleh, I'm too lazy. It was back when you were Olympic Glory. Bibarel was going batshit on everything that match though.
I find it sad that Pachirisu can't learn Taunt though, otherwise that thing would've been a great Super Fanger especially considering it actually has pretty ok defenses and is a lot faster than Bibarel, though its abilities are complete fuck.
I only lost that match by 1%, so it can't be all that bad. I was going to warstory that match, but bleh, I'm too lazy. It was back when you were Olympic Glory. Bibarel was going batshit on everything that match though.
I find it sad that Pachirisu can't learn Taunt though, otherwise that thing would've been a great Super Fanger especially considering it actually has pretty ok defenses and is a lot faster than Bibarel, though its abilities are complete fuck.
232 HP/80 Def/80 Spdef is superior to 212 HP/92 Def/88 Spdef as it minimizes the damage you can take as much as possible.
Seriously, people need to quit trying to get their HPs perfectly divisible by 16. =\ Divisible by 16 + 1 (ex.: 353, 369, 401) is far superior in every way, anyways, as you're then surviving 3 layers of Spikes 4 times with 1 HP, 8 neutral/4 super effective/2 x4 damage Stealth Rocks, etc. (Of course, this is all assuming that Sandstorm is not out or you are immune to it. If you factor in leftovers, you'll survive 5 rounds of full layer spikes and so on.)
The concept of /16 + 1 had a topic made by Pokemon Professor/Bob/Duck/etc. 2-3 years ago. I'll try to dig it up.
In almost all cases you are better off maxing HP first to minimize the damage you take on both sides, too. Has the community learned nothing from its previous generations? Maybe I should make a topic on this.
Anyways, instead of going for 227 Speed, why not just max it out? Unless those extra defenses are doing something special, a simple 252 HP/6 Atk/252 Speed spread gets the job done nicely. If you're just ignorant, exactly 240 EVs in Speed hits one point above Adamant Gyarados' max speed, 261. If you're smart, you know that people innovate from the "standard." I may run a few more speed EVs than the "standard bulky Gyarados," which just completely eradicates the concept of Taunting apposing Gyarados. Running more than Adamant Gyarados' max speed insures you are always outrunning it unless it is Jolly. Gliscor also sometimes runs more then it's minimal speed, and it's good to be able to catch those select few, too. You also outrun a regular bulky Zapdos, and you may or may not find yourself in that situation, but it's good to be prepared.
In short: Run max speed if you want to use this competitively, because stopping at 227 when you get 265 maximum is kind of silly!
Seriously, people need to quit trying to get their HPs perfectly divisible by 16. =\ Divisible by 16 + 1 (ex.: 353, 369, 401) is far superior in every way, anyways, as you're then surviving 3 layers of Spikes 4 times with 1 HP, 8 neutral/4 super effective/2 x4 damage Stealth Rocks, etc. (Of course, this is all assuming that Sandstorm is not out or you are immune to it. If you factor in leftovers, you'll survive 5 rounds of full layer spikes and so on.)
The concept of /16 + 1 had a topic made by Pokemon Professor/Bob/Duck/etc. 2-3 years ago. I'll try to dig it up.
In almost all cases you are better off maxing HP first to minimize the damage you take on both sides, too. Has the community learned nothing from its previous generations? Maybe I should make a topic on this.
Anyways, instead of going for 227 Speed, why not just max it out? Unless those extra defenses are doing something special, a simple 252 HP/6 Atk/252 Speed spread gets the job done nicely. If you're just ignorant, exactly 240 EVs in Speed hits one point above Adamant Gyarados' max speed, 261. If you're smart, you know that people innovate from the "standard." I may run a few more speed EVs than the "standard bulky Gyarados," which just completely eradicates the concept of Taunting apposing Gyarados. Running more than Adamant Gyarados' max speed insures you are always outrunning it unless it is Jolly. Gliscor also sometimes runs more then it's minimal speed, and it's good to be able to catch those select few, too. You also outrun a regular bulky Zapdos, and you may or may not find yourself in that situation, but it's good to be prepared.
In short: Run max speed if you want to use this competitively, because stopping at 227 when you get 265 maximum is kind of silly!
That exact same argument could be made against any Pokemon that can't immediately threaten them. And since they're not switching in against stuff that threatens them in the first place... Well, I don't see how this particular point is detrimental to the viability of the set.
Seems pretty cool though, its the first real use of Bibarel I've seen. I do think it has some serious competition against other (arguably better) wallbreakers, who can't fall back on the "no-prediction-necessary" Super Fang but are harder to switch in against.
Well, the thing is, if you don't have those defenses, you're going to get murdered even by attacks from walls. For instance, Gliscor will be able to 2HKO with Earthquake instead of 4HKO.
You generally want to be able to come in and Yawn things more than once, so it needs the defenses to actually survive the hits.
I know that people differentiate from the standards on occasion, which is why I had Bibarel at 245 speed before in my previous tests, but then I felt he just wasn't outspeeding anything that mattered. It's kinda like with Breloom and how it can reach 262 speed, but you only generally give it a max of 242 or something, because it just won't outspeed anything significant if it maxes out speed.
Bologo, like I said, I remember facing it, and considering I won, it obviously didn't "surprise" me to the point that the "Surprise" factor was significant enough. Also, I don't look to win by "6-0" ever; if I won, it was simply because I planned the battle to win that way. Also, don't use me on Olympic Glory as an example haha; I laddered myself to the point of sheer boredom on that account, so much so that by the middle to the end I was no longer a good battler, but just a mere monotone "mouse-clicker" lol.
And Subversion, that point was merely stated as an addition to the fact that it doesn't truly wall break effectively either. It's mediocre speed and mediocre stability are the first detriment; the fact that it is also set up bait is the second detriment.
And Subversion, that point was merely stated as an addition to the fact that it doesn't truly wall break effectively either. It's mediocre speed and mediocre stability are the first detriment; the fact that it is also set up bait is the second detriment.
All good and well, then, Bologo. Like I said, if it does something special, then keep 227 speed. (It's a 3HKO with about a spec of a chance to become a 4HKO with your EVs, by the way.) You still lose to faster Gliscors, though? And with a 252/6/252 spread, a minimal attack Gliscor never 2HKOs you without sandstorm. Also, is it truly worth a bit more defense when you can be outrunning faster Gyarados, whom you will be up against more than Gliscor anyways?
But, I'm more interested in how you might respond to the first part of my post. You seemed to have skipped over it as if I was speaking nonsense?
But, I'm more interested in how you might respond to the first part of my post. You seemed to have skipped over it as if I was speaking nonsense?
Heh, Karrot, I didn't quote the first part of your post because I have nothing to argue with that. If you can show me that's it's best defensive distribution, I'll gladly change it.
Aldaron, I don't believe that Bibarel is set-up bait in any way, shape or form, because it has Taunt, and it also has Unaware to make statting up against it a bad idea since you're giving it a free turn to Yawn.
Aldaron, I don't believe that Bibarel is set-up bait in any way, shape or form, because it has Taunt, and it also has Unaware to make statting up against it a bad idea since you're giving it a free turn to Yawn.
The defensive spread that Karrot and I gave is the one returned from X-Act's Defense EVs applet which, of course, gives the best defenses possible given a particular nature (if applicable) and a number of EVs to work with.
I don't mean this to be offensive, because anybody who knows me knows how much respect I have for the mods here, but I think it really says a lot about the analysis that most of them were written based solely on theorymon.
Just posting to say that this is a really well thought-out idea. I like the spirit of it, though I'm afraid I can't see it as very practical. It may work in the beginning, but as the idea catches on and people begin to realize why they're staring at a Bibarel, they'll stop leaving their walls in and start bringing their hitters out. If you can predict a switch then you can manage with Super Fang, but otherwise, once Yawn takes effect and Sleep Clause is activated, you're kind of screwed. I guess what I'm saying is that Yawn/Taunt is not the base of this set, so much as Super Fang is to cripple sweepers.
I think it says more about the time they were made and the internet communities thirst for information so they don't have to work for it before a game even comes out. Want proof? Look at the amount of idiots who want a stage ban list and character tier list for Smash Bros Brawl before it even comes out.
The game constantly evolves. Analyses were written before the metagame could really develop and will be editted as it does. It's not like boah was in the first T-Tar analysis for Advance. Unless the analyses for Advance came after boah was made. Hell if I know, I got here in April 07!
The analyses are a community effort. If you have a problem with one of them, don't bitch in Stark Mountain but instead make yourself useful and post it in C&C with a well-formed description. People seem to think we have an infinite amount of time to polish every single analysis - the fact of the matter is, Bibarel doesn't matter much. The attention goes to the more standard Pokemon, getting the articles from the old site up on the new one, and for me at least programming for the site.
I have read this like five times and I honestly still don't know what you're trying to say. Did you mean "analyses"? or just this one? Regardless, the main reason I'm confused is because I thought it was painfully obvious by now that we had nothing to go on BUT theorymon, especially for pokemon like Bibarel that we had no reason to strongly believe would not be NU. As chaos said, that's part of the reason we didn't pay it much attention.
That brings up one of his other points, though—if you don't like something in an analysis, suggest something in C&C. IF you'd said something to the extent of "remain the product of sheer theorymon" implying many of them haven't been given much attention since they were first written last spring, then you'd have a point (albeit still one that would make me roll my eyes). The issue now is how long the analysis has gone unnoticed by our community, but that's more the fault of the community than one person, isn't it?
"analyses", all the vowels blur together.
my point was that the community should have waited until there was some sort of battling sim or widely populated competitive medium. The writers can hardly be expected to make good analyses without actually using the pokemon. Isn't it absurd to expect people to write this stuff without playing DP?
My complaint isn't with any particular analysis but with the process as a whole.
Except in the vast majority of cases the analyses are fine and are commonly used to this day. Not to mention that the existence of pure but solid theorymon made D/P battling much more instantly accessible to people, whether familiar with previous generations but not the changes in D/P, or completely new to competitive Pokemon.
The widely populated competitive medium came about in part because of the existence of such well-written analyses. Just look at how long after D/P's English release it took for Shoddy to become so populated... and you wanted people to wait to write a single set analysis until after that happened?
The widely populated competitive medium came about in part because of the existence of such well-written analyses. Just look at how long after D/P's English release it took for Shoddy to become so populated... and you wanted people to wait to write a single set analysis until after that happened?
Sigh...is my thread ruined already? C'mon guys, it's common sense that most of the UU pokemon haven't had their analysis revamped.
Uhh the problem with having to wait for a battling sim to write the analyses is maybe that people wanted to play on...I dunno, wi-fi as well? Not like people never played on that before shoddybattle was made.
I really just posted this thread to see if I could get a good enough approval to post this in a peer edit for Bibarel, since I was thinking of doing that way before I made this thread. I just didn't wanna have to waste my time making a peer edit only to get my set rejected, so that's why I made this thread.
Uhh the problem with having to wait for a battling sim to write the analyses is maybe that people wanted to play on...I dunno, wi-fi as well? Not like people never played on that before shoddybattle was made.
I really just posted this thread to see if I could get a good enough approval to post this in a peer edit for Bibarel, since I was thinking of doing that way before I made this thread. I just didn't wanna have to waste my time making a peer edit only to get my set rejected, so that's why I made this thread.
Me assuming some basic things doesn't mean the end of the world, does it?
Anyway, the set is good enough for a peer edit, no question. From what I'm seeing, most people like the concept. It certainly looks sweet on paper, that's for sure.
Anyway, the set is good enough for a peer edit, no question. From what I'm seeing, most people like the concept. It certainly looks sweet on paper, that's for sure.
And if it's as good as you say it is on Shoddy with Simple and Unaware not working, imagine it on Wifi with them.
In fact, I might breed this after I get my HP Fight Houndour.
In fact, I might breed this after I get my HP Fight Houndour.
I'm not really sold on this quite yet. It isn't really doing anything to walls with an instant recovery move or restalk (Most of 'em). It's pretty slow and fragile to boot. Yawn, Taunt, Super Fang are all great moves, I agree, but sweepers have already set up before taunt or killed you before yawn. And, personally, I wouldn't care too much if my Lucario is 50% or 100% if it got an SD up in the process.
You greatly underestimate the internet's desire for absurd things. God, people wanted a tier list around the time these analyses were being made.