You are the one who became unnecessarily aggressive and mocked my post, which was completely logical and far more reasonable than whatever you wrote. Don't dish out if you can't take one. Also, don't reply to this post if you want to end this conversation here.
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SV UU Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter Lily
- Start date
- Status
Tornadus-Therian (M)
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Acrobatics
- Taunt
- Bulk Up/U-turn
- Hammer Arm
I’ve been running no item physical Torn as of late and I personally feel like it’s a bigger threat than special Torn. You get your 110 bst Flying move with no chance of missing. Most Torn use boots or AV to increase survivability but I think the trade off for more offensive output is better. While it has a slightly lower atk than sp atk stat, on average you are doing more damage with Acro than with Bleak or Hurricane due to accuracy. Thundy, Treads, and to a lesser degree Tink stand as your most common switch ins but none of the have recovery to take multiple hits throughout the game. It can whittle its checks down well. When you factor in spike stack which I would recommend, you’ll find your self many times being able to sweep by spamming Acro.
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Acrobatics
- Taunt
- Bulk Up/U-turn
- Hammer Arm
I’ve been running no item physical Torn as of late and I personally feel like it’s a bigger threat than special Torn. You get your 110 bst Flying move with no chance of missing. Most Torn use boots or AV to increase survivability but I think the trade off for more offensive output is better. While it has a slightly lower atk than sp atk stat, on average you are doing more damage with Acro than with Bleak or Hurricane due to accuracy. Thundy, Treads, and to a lesser degree Tink stand as your most common switch ins but none of the have recovery to take multiple hits throughout the game. It can whittle its checks down well. When you factor in spike stack which I would recommend, you’ll find your self many times being able to sweep by spamming Acro.
Hey! Why would you run Hammer Arm? Torn-T’s speed is one of it’s most defining aspects, so it seems counterintuitive to use it.
I mean, Steels and Rocks wall Acro. If you dent them on the switch and then switch out, it works.
^exactly. you want to dent your checks to ready for a late game sweep. I didnt want to right a whole essay, thats for cc if they want lol.
hey! wanted to take a moment aside from the drops to talk about a problem i've been encountering often in the builder for the past couple of months. I'd love to see if anyone else feels similarly, or if it's just me.
This list above shows every Pokemon that is currently on the SV UU Viability Rankings and is also capable of learning Stealth Rock. Kleavor uses Stone Axe, but the difference isn't important in regards to my point, so we'll treat them as one and the same here.
This list shows every Pokemon that is both of the above, but also can fit onto most teams and run Stealth Rock while making few, if any, concessions.
The rest fall into certain categories, and I've outlined them as follows:
Posers: - Learning Stealth Rock doesn't make you a setter.
Archetype Locked: - Don't really function with the exception of certain teamstyles.
Overloaded: - Already doing too much to try and fit Rocks.
Not Real: - Not actually presences in the meta.
So, assuming that you're not running a bulkier build that would allow for Blissey or Quagsire, or a hyper offense build that would work with Lycanroc-Dusk, you have four options. Still not bad! Pretty solid, even. However, this is where we approach the actual problem.
These are two of the best current spinners in SV UU. Notice how they're both Ground-types. Also notice that two of the aforementioned four Stealth Rock users are ALSO Ground-types. Still, two options, right?
...Wait. Iron Treads is a Steel-type. So is Tinkaton. Shit.
This means that two of the four viable spinners only really effectively pair with one of the four widespread rockers. That's still not the end of the world for most teams. However, there's been a new trend going on since the drops and the fall of Talonflame: Lokix has been on the rise. And it has several of the same weaknesses, noticeably to Stealth Rocks, that Kleavor has. This means that on teams with Lokix, you're much more restricted in the spinners you can use, since Donphan and Iron Treads don't align very well with most Stealth Rock users. Quaquaval and Cyclizar aren't bad, but it does end up leading to team structures in the tier feeling a bit predictable. You either have to compensate for a larger weakness than you'd like, be running stall or hyper offense, run Kleavor with one of the elephants, or run Cyclizar or Quaquaval with another Stealth Rock setter.
Now, obviously, doubling up on types in some cases is not the end of the world. You can, for example, use Kleavor and Scizor on the same team and do just fine. I'm obviously aware of this. However, in the situations I outlined, the stacking is moreso inconvenient than anything, and really feels as if it constricts teambuilding. I also realize that there's not anything that can be actually done about this since it's just an unfortunate circumstance of how the tier has shaken out, and these are just some thoughts I've had that I wanted to air. Would love to hear if anyone has something to add to this discussion.
This list above shows every Pokemon that is currently on the SV UU Viability Rankings and is also capable of learning Stealth Rock. Kleavor uses Stone Axe, but the difference isn't important in regards to my point, so we'll treat them as one and the same here.
This list shows every Pokemon that is both of the above, but also can fit onto most teams and run Stealth Rock while making few, if any, concessions.
The rest fall into certain categories, and I've outlined them as follows:
Posers:
- Learning Stealth Rock doesn't make you a setter.Archetype Locked:
- Don't really function with the exception of certain teamstyles.Overloaded:
- Already doing too much to try and fit Rocks.Not Real:
- Not actually presences in the meta.So, assuming that you're not running a bulkier build that would allow for Blissey or Quagsire, or a hyper offense build that would work with Lycanroc-Dusk, you have four options. Still not bad! Pretty solid, even. However, this is where we approach the actual problem.
These are two of the best current spinners in SV UU. Notice how they're both Ground-types. Also notice that two of the aforementioned four Stealth Rock users are ALSO Ground-types. Still, two options, right?
...Wait. Iron Treads is a Steel-type. So is Tinkaton. Shit.
This means that two of the four viable spinners only really effectively pair with one of the four widespread rockers. That's still not the end of the world for most teams. However, there's been a new trend going on since the drops and the fall of Talonflame: Lokix has been on the rise. And it has several of the same weaknesses, noticeably to Stealth Rocks, that Kleavor has. This means that on teams with Lokix, you're much more restricted in the spinners you can use, since Donphan and Iron Treads don't align very well with most Stealth Rock users. Quaquaval and Cyclizar aren't bad, but it does end up leading to team structures in the tier feeling a bit predictable. You either have to compensate for a larger weakness than you'd like, be running stall or hyper offense, run Kleavor with one of the elephants, or run Cyclizar or Quaquaval with another Stealth Rock setter.
Now, obviously, doubling up on types in some cases is not the end of the world. You can, for example, use Kleavor and Scizor on the same team and do just fine. I'm obviously aware of this. However, in the situations I outlined, the stacking is moreso inconvenient than anything, and really feels as if it constricts teambuilding. I also realize that there's not anything that can be actually done about this since it's just an unfortunate circumstance of how the tier has shaken out, and these are just some thoughts I've had that I wanted to air. Would love to hear if anyone has something to add to this discussion.
I am gonna say while quagsire has prob fallen off in balance teams after home I still feel it has a role and is prob a good enough user since its ranked B+ (although not enough experience with it since then on balance teams) I would say its a good enough user... but using quagsire makes you have the same problems as you would have using gastroArchetype Locked:
TO not make this a one liner...
Tornadus-Therian (M) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Steel / Water / Flying
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Bleakwind Storm
- Heat Wave
- Taunt
Ive been screwing around with bleakwind storm torn-t and I like it a lot. not only is 80% much more likely to be consistent than 70% but hitting consecutive hurricanes is frustrating asf with 49% to hit 2 and a 34% to hit 3 which is just UGHHHH. While confusion is nice it is more frustrating to just miss and rely on this garbage of a move. Bleakwind storm has a 64% chance to hit twice and a 51% chance to hit three times which is much better than hurricane. The speed drop can also be funny to because it makes torn-t mirrors much better.
Edit:
Chesnaught @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Bulletproof
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 240 HP / 252 Def / 16 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Leech Seed
- Taunt
- Body Press
- Spikes
Ive been using this.. taunt is a funny move I found which can be pretty darn good, it helps a lot and does its job by making it so smth like alomomola cant use wish on you and pass and you can spike up, gastrodon cant spike up in your face and you can use it as fother if its sludge bomb, scizor to prevent it from using SD to run over you, slowking from using chilly reception to just pivot out, can stop smth such as toxic quagsire, etc. I find this a pretty darn underrated move on chesnaught
Yeah, this is in part biased since I've seen very few Quagsires on balance, but you're right in that it has the same issues as Gastro
Also, I did forget to mention, Donphan + Tinkaton is a combination that works and I glossed over it, BUT the main point I wanted to make still stands
I broadly agree with the sentiment of this, if you need stealth rock on every team then you're always choosing from what is a very limited pool of pokemon and normally at best you end up with like 7 or 8 viable rockers being generous. For example, to add to your list of viable rockers, all of hydreigon treads donphan and h arc are fine as rockers to differing degrees, but h arc is the only one I'd actually consider splashable, treads is too but you lose out on another important move. The type stacking point doesn't really add up for me, the main concern when stacking types is that you stack weaknesses so if you have a team with iron treads and gastrodon for example they don't actually share any weaknesses and kind of complement each other even though they're both ground types. If you do end up stacking weaknesses because you have to use hippo + treads or something that's something you have to account for with the rest of your team. Another thing is that you don't actually need hazard removal rn, treads and quaquaval are just very good and easy to fit, although quaquaval would kinda prefer not to have to run spin. But you can just run neither and run a lot of boots mons, it does require planning around spikes though (so pretty much gastro and chesnaught). Hopefully we get like at least one good defogger with dlc cos compressing flying type + hazard removal into one slot does open up more structures, I just don't feel the current state of the hazard meta is that bad, especially compared to what it was pre home.hey! wanted to take a moment aside from the drops to talk about a problem i've been encountering often in the builder for the past couple of months. I'd love to see if anyone else feels similarly, or if it's just me.
This list above shows every Pokemon that is currently on the SV UU Viability Rankings and is also capable of learning Stealth Rock. Kleavor uses Stone Axe, but the difference isn't important in regards to my point, so we'll treat them as one and the same here.
This list shows every Pokemon that is both of the above, but also can fit onto most teams and run Stealth Rock while making few, if any, concessions.
The rest fall into certain categories, and I've outlined them as follows:
Posers:
Archetype Locked:
Overloaded:
Not Real:
So, assuming that you're not running a bulkier build that would allow for Blissey or Quagsire, or a hyper offense build that would work with Lycanroc-Dusk, you have four options. Still not bad! Pretty solid, even. However, this is where we approach the actual problem.
These are two of the best current spinners in SV UU. Notice how they're both Ground-types. Also notice that two of the aforementioned four Stealth Rock users are ALSO Ground-types. Still, two options, right?
...Wait. Iron Treads is a Steel-type. So is Tinkaton. Shit.
This means that two of the four viable spinners only really effectively pair with one of the four widespread rockers. That's still not the end of the world for most teams. However, there's been a new trend going on since the drops and the fall of Talonflame: Lokix has been on the rise. And it has several of the same weaknesses, noticeably to Stealth Rocks, that Kleavor has. This means that on teams with Lokix, you're much more restricted in the spinners you can use, since Donphan and Iron Treads don't align very well with most Stealth Rock users. Quaquaval and Cyclizar aren't bad, but it does end up leading to team structures in the tier feeling a bit predictable. You either have to compensate for a larger weakness than you'd like, be running stall or hyper offense, run Kleavor with one of the elephants, or run Cyclizar or Quaquaval with another Stealth Rock setter.
Now, obviously, doubling up on types in some cases is not the end of the world. You can, for example, use Kleavor and Scizor on the same team and do just fine. I'm obviously aware of this. However, in the situations I outlined, the stacking is moreso inconvenient than anything, and really feels as if it constricts teambuilding. I also realize that there's not anything that can be actually done about this since it's just an unfortunate circumstance of how the tier has shaken out, and these are just some thoughts I've had that I wanted to air. Would love to hear if anyone has something to add to this discussion.
Great post!! I was thinking of a problem like this too when I tried building with Ursaluna on Bulky Offense/Offense. Using any ground type other that Donphan/Iron Treads can be a nightmare for your team's defensive synergy. I'd like to add something to your post, though:hey! wanted to take a moment aside from the drops to talk about a problem i've been encountering often in the builder for the past couple of months. I'd love to see if anyone else feels similarly, or if it's just me.
This list above shows every Pokemon that is currently on the SV UU Viability Rankings and is also capable of learning Stealth Rock. Kleavor uses Stone Axe, but the difference isn't important in regards to my point, so we'll treat them as one and the same here.
This list shows every Pokemon that is both of the above, but also can fit onto most teams and run Stealth Rock while making few, if any, concessions.
The rest fall into certain categories, and I've outlined them as follows:
Posers:
Archetype Locked:
Overloaded:
Not Real:
So, assuming that you're not running a bulkier build that would allow for Blissey or Quagsire, or a hyper offense build that would work with Lycanroc-Dusk, you have four options. Still not bad! Pretty solid, even. However, this is where we approach the actual problem.
These are two of the best current spinners in SV UU. Notice how they're both Ground-types. Also notice that two of the aforementioned four Stealth Rock users are ALSO Ground-types. Still, two options, right?
...Wait. Iron Treads is a Steel-type. So is Tinkaton. Shit.
This means that two of the four viable spinners only really effectively pair with one of the four widespread rockers. That's still not the end of the world for most teams. However, there's been a new trend going on since the drops and the fall of Talonflame: Lokix has been on the rise. And it has several of the same weaknesses, noticeably to Stealth Rocks, that Kleavor has. This means that on teams with Lokix, you're much more restricted in the spinners you can use, since Donphan and Iron Treads don't align very well with most Stealth Rock users. Quaquaval and Cyclizar aren't bad, but it does end up leading to team structures in the tier feeling a bit predictable. You either have to compensate for a larger weakness than you'd like, be running stall or hyper offense, run Kleavor with one of the elephants, or run Cyclizar or Quaquaval with another Stealth Rock setter.
Now, obviously, doubling up on types in some cases is not the end of the world. You can, for example, use Kleavor and Scizor on the same team and do just fine. I'm obviously aware of this. However, in the situations I outlined, the stacking is moreso inconvenient than anything, and really feels as if it constricts teambuilding. I also realize that there's not anything that can be actually done about this since it's just an unfortunate circumstance of how the tier has shaken out, and these are just some thoughts I've had that I wanted to air. Would love to hear if anyone has something to add to this discussion.
In my experience, Rocks Harcanine is pretty good. Slot 4 is quite free on boots sets (and you probably shouldn't be running banded sets). On anything thats not fat balance or bulkier, you won't miss Morning Sun. You don't want to switch Iron Treads into it, obviously, and you do a solid 30% to Donphan with Flare Blitz. Spin Quaquaval is your best answer, but that's why it's a great partner for Scarf Basuclegion.Overloaded:
I would 100% reccomend this core: https://pokepast.es/a8c252211d7d6dba. ThatOneApple showed me this a few months ago, and it still puts in work. Put in an Iron Treads and 3 voltturn mons, and you have a pretty good team. You could probably also build this into something bulkier with Specs Basculegion, but I'm not the most sure of fat teams right now with Hoopa clicking buttons and blowing up anything slow.
EDIT: never forget coalossal, the spinner we didn't know we'd miss until it was too late...
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Just a heads up, you made Basculegion male in that link.
I agree with all but this part here, arc is a fine rocker because as sleestacks said, it keeps all the spinners out effectively other than
, which is easily handled by 
But yes i do think our situation with hazards and removal is a little annoying, most teams like
as a spinner due to its many great traits but then you type stack with almost every rocker we have other than and . Now, type stacking isnt the worst thing in the world, plenty of teams stack steel or ground types, its just that a lot of the time you kinda just have to, which can make teambuilding a little annoying, but such is the unfortunate fate of the meta as there isnt much that can be done.Anyways I wanted to throw a calc here to add to this that i found incredibly funny.
Bellibolt @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Static
Tera Type: Grass / Water
EVs: 252 HP / 220 Def / 36 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Tera Blast / Discharge
- Volt Switch
- Muddy Water
- Slack Off
Another mon seeing a bit more use and honestly, frogs pretty good post-home. Mons just super fat and hella good at making U-Turn an awful move to click. Treads being god and the usual ground of choice for a lot of teams is also pretty awesome when it takes a million from Muddy Water. Walled by Gastro if you aren't Tera Blast grassing can be a bit of a hinderance but at the end of the day Gastros abusable enough and still think Belli fulfills an awesome defensive role. Statics just amazing at landing crucial paras off TornT, Quaq, & Gzap U-Turns while also acting as a sturdy flying resist. Spread I listed avoids a two shot from k9 Hsmash while scoring a guranteed OHKO w muddy water but you can realistically do other things. SpD variants r probably serviceable as well depending on what you're weaker to.
252 Atk Hoopa-Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 252 HP / 220+ Def Bellibolt: 151-178 (35.7 - 42.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Use the Belligoat
thanks for pointing that out, edited
if the hoopa doesn’t have an assault vest or a boosting item and the bellibolt has electromorphosis instead of static it has a chance to win the 1v1I agree with all but this part here, arc is a fine rocker because as sleestacks said, it keeps all the spinners out effectively other than
But yes i do think our situation with hazards and removal is a little annoying, most teams like
Anyways I wanted to throw a calc here to add to this that i found incredibly funny.
252 Atk Hoopa-Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 252 HP / 220+ Def Bellibolt: 151-178 (35.7 - 42.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Use the Belligoat
+2 36 SpA Bellibolt Discharge vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 145-172 (48.1 - 57.1%) -- 92.6% chance to 2HKO
(+2 to simulate electromorphosis)
This probably isn’t that relevant (when is hoopa not going to run a boosting item or assault vest?) but it’s funny how the 160 attack monster loses to the dynamo frog from RU
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I'd argue that Hydreigon is a somewhat viable stealth rocks setter. At least it is more viable than the other pokemon in the posers category. I've used it a lot in this role (on offense teams), and while not the best rocker, it has a few things going for it.hey! wanted to take a moment aside from the drops to talk about a problem i've been encountering often in the builder for the past couple of months. I'd love to see if anyone else feels similarly, or if it's just me.
This list above shows every Pokemon that is currently on the SV UU Viability Rankings and is also capable of learning Stealth Rock. Kleavor uses Stone Axe, but the difference isn't important in regards to my point, so we'll treat them as one and the same here.
This list shows every Pokemon that is both of the above, but also can fit onto most teams and run Stealth Rock while making few, if any, concessions.
The rest fall into certain categories, and I've outlined them as follows:
Posers:
Archetype Locked:
Overloaded:
Not Real:
So, assuming that you're not running a bulkier build that would allow for Blissey or Quagsire, or a hyper offense build that would work with Lycanroc-Dusk, you have four options. Still not bad! Pretty solid, even. However, this is where we approach the actual problem.
These are two of the best current spinners in SV UU. Notice how they're both Ground-types. Also notice that two of the aforementioned four Stealth Rock users are ALSO Ground-types. Still, two options, right?
...Wait. Iron Treads is a Steel-type. So is Tinkaton. Shit.
This means that two of the four viable spinners only really effectively pair with one of the four widespread rockers. That's still not the end of the world for most teams. However, there's been a new trend going on since the drops and the fall of Talonflame: Lokix has been on the rise. And it has several of the same weaknesses, noticeably to Stealth Rocks, that Kleavor has. This means that on teams with Lokix, you're much more restricted in the spinners you can use, since Donphan and Iron Treads don't align very well with most Stealth Rock users. Quaquaval and Cyclizar aren't bad, but it does end up leading to team structures in the tier feeling a bit predictable. You either have to compensate for a larger weakness than you'd like, be running stall or hyper offense, run Kleavor with one of the elephants, or run Cyclizar or Quaquaval with another Stealth Rock setter.
Now, obviously, doubling up on types in some cases is not the end of the world. You can, for example, use Kleavor and Scizor on the same team and do just fine. I'm obviously aware of this. However, in the situations I outlined, the stacking is moreso inconvenient than anything, and really feels as if it constricts teambuilding. I also realize that there's not anything that can be actually done about this since it's just an unfortunate circumstance of how the tier has shaken out, and these are just some thoughts I've had that I wanted to air. Would love to hear if anyone has something to add to this discussion.
Pros:
- Hydreigon is currently A- in the viability rankings, so it is pretty splashable, unlike Mew and Bisharp, which are very difficult to build with. It has solid role compression, as a mon with ground immunity, powerful special attacks, decent speed tier, useful defensive typing, and, in this case, rocks. Basically, it isn't a gimmick to put this on a team and it doesn't seem out of place on team preview.
- Fast rocks. This isn't always that important, but its speed tier does allow it to get up rocks before getting hit, in most cases. The viable setters that are faster than it are speed invested Iron Treads and scarf Kleavor. The other fast rock setters (rocks Scream Tail, Lycanroc, and Mew) have viability issues.
- It is unexpected. Rocks Hydreigon is not the standard set, obviously. I've found that lead Hydreigon often forces an immediate switch, as my opponent expects a high powered specs special attack or nasty plot setup. If I lead Hydreigon and click stealth rocks, they often go up for free. Additionally, I usually pair it with Iron Treads (the most splashable mon in the tier). At team preview, Treads appears to be my rocker, not Hydreigon. I usually have the element of surprise.
- It has a significantly different typing from the other rockers in this tier. It is the only dragon with rocks, and the most viable dark type that has rocks. It can fit on teams that don't want to double up ground or steel.
- It is the only rocker that is immune to ground attacks. It is useful to be immune to earthquake when the two best spinners are Donphan and Treads. Every other rocker takes ground attacks for neutral or super effective damage.
- Great base stats. Good overall bulk. Giving up specs or nasty plot does lower damage output, but with base 125 special attack, it can still threaten. It still provides offensive value after getting rocks up.
- Has U-turn. Hydreigon can get up rocks and pivot out reasonably well.
- Lacks the power of offensive sets. This version of Hydreigon is not a wallbreaker, like specs, or a setup wincon, like nasty plot.
- 4MSS. If Hydreigon has stealth rock, it typically has to give up its coverage move.
- Not reliable at resetting rocks. Hydreigon can get worn down. Once the opponent knows that it is rocks, not offense, they can attack into Hydreigon with less respect. It works well on offense, when rocks only need to be set once or twice, but on a balance team Hydreigon probably can't do this job well.
- Weak to bug and fighting. Hydreigon doesn't want to lead if the opponent has Lokix or Breloom, as both can potentially OHKO with priority and prevent rocks. Gapdos is also a big threat, as close combat kills, and u-turn and brave bird hurt. If I see any of those, I usually choose another lead.
- Keeping rocks up. Hydreigon can't exactly spinblock, unless using tera ghost, which I wouldn't really recommend. However, it does have an OK matchup against the two primary spinners, Donphan and Iron Treads.
- Hydreigon vs. Treads is a weird matchup. Iron Treads has difficulty both spinning and beating Hydreigon. Dark pulse 2HKOs most versions of Treads, whereas Iron Head is a 3HKO on Hydreigon. If both are at full HP, Hydreigon can stay in and do significant damage to Treads if it spins. Additionally, dark pulse can flinch, which gives a low chance of stopping Treads from spinning entirely. On the other hand, once Treads has spun (or if it is booster speed), Iron Head can flinch Hydreigon. Hydreigon can't really stop a spin, but it makes the spin costly.
- Similar situation for Donphan. Hydreigon is faster than Donphan after a spin, and dark pulse 2HKOs, so if Donphan spins, it takes a ton of damage and is then forced to switch. There is also a low roll of a Draco OHKO on offensive Donphan after rocks (if it doesn't have boots). Ice Spinner only does 50-70%, so a healthy Hydreigon is not threatened and forced out, and rocks can often go back up. This is generally a good matchup for Hydreigon.
- Quaquaval can OHKO Hydreigon, but it has to take a Draco first, which does a lot of damage (70-98%, very low chance to OHKO swords dance sets after rocks).
- Cyclizar seems less common right now, but it has a good matchup against Hydreigon. Draco OHKO as long as Cyclizar has some amount of special attack investment. Of course, Hydreigon can OHKO back with Draco, if Cyclizar misses.
I usually run this set:
Hydreigon @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Dark Pulse
- U-turn
- Stealth Rock
glad to see that there's been a lot of discussion surrounding my post :) wanted to respond to some points i agree/disagree with or just otherwise find interesting
A couple points I want to bring up, somewhat repeats of things I've said before, but still different enough I feel it's warranted. I don't agree with the point that Arc-H doesn't miss Morning Sun on more offensive teams; the longevity is extremely useful in allowing it to break more often and not let chip keep it from coming in reliably.
The rise and general greatness of Basculegion is also something I wanted to talk about in regards to the type stacking issue. Legion really does a good job at just ripping through most setters AND removers unless you're using Cyclizar and/or Tinkaton. And even then, Ice Beam or just large amounts of chip aren't great things for them to have to deal with. I feel like it's not a stretch to say that being able to blast through most teams' hazard game is part of why Basculegion is so good at the moment.
I do agree with you saying that the state of things right now is better than it was during pre-HOME, but also that's like, not really a high bar LOL. I think that while our options for Spikes are pretty much limited to the two you mentioned (Gastrodon/Chesnaught), those two are good enough that, as well as the general presence of Rocks being very high thanks to Kleavor existing in general, not running removal and just opting for bootspam on any structure that isn't HO feels extremely risky. Knock Off isn't uncommon either, so it definitely feels like you're playing fast and loose for the sake of being able to structure your team the way you want to. Not that I dislike this philosophy, I honestly support it, but I think that advertising opting out of removal as a widespread option isn't quite true.
Also, yeah, weakness stacking is something you have to account for with the rest of the team, but when those stacked weaknesses end up being things like Ground, Grass, or Water, offensive types that are already very strong right now, it definitely becomes a lot more pressing.
Again, thank you to everyone for your responses and insights, very glad to see that this sparked a discussion.
I've seen the point brought up a few times that Arc-H with Rocks is something a lot of people disagree with me on, and I do have to say, I just don't get it? Like, it has shit matchups into 3/4 spinners, and the one spinner it DOES have a good matchup into (Cyclizar) is the least common now by a decent margin. Also, especially on Boots sets, I feel like Morning Sun just provides a lot more with the added longevity. Getting hazards up with Arc-H is a task that's always felt very awkward in my personal experience.I agree with all but this part here, arc is a fine rocker because as sleestacks said, it keeps all the spinners out effectively other than
Very good post regarding the state of Rocks Hydreigon, please do read the full thing if you haven't already since I've cut this down a lot to just focus on the main point I want to give. I don't think Rocks Hydreigon is bad by any means, and I do agree that out of the other Pokemon in the category (Scream Tail, Bisharp, Mew) it is the best option for a hazard setter. My main concern is that I don't see a use case for the set when you could just as easily run a different setter and run one of Hydreigon's several other sets. All of SubNP, Scarf, Specs, and Rocks are good, I just feel that Rocks is definitely the worst in terms of what you're giving up in order to use it. Viable, but comes with a high opportunity cost, and that's why I don't really consider Hydreigon to be a Stealth Rock setter.
RIP to Coalossal :(
A couple points I want to bring up, somewhat repeats of things I've said before, but still different enough I feel it's warranted. I don't agree with the point that Arc-H doesn't miss Morning Sun on more offensive teams; the longevity is extremely useful in allowing it to break more often and not let chip keep it from coming in reliably.
The rise and general greatness of Basculegion is also something I wanted to talk about in regards to the type stacking issue. Legion really does a good job at just ripping through most setters AND removers unless you're using Cyclizar and/or Tinkaton. And even then, Ice Beam or just large amounts of chip aren't great things for them to have to deal with. I feel like it's not a stretch to say that being able to blast through most teams' hazard game is part of why Basculegion is so good at the moment.
Praying for Mandibuzz (or Conk) fr
I do agree with you saying that the state of things right now is better than it was during pre-HOME, but also that's like, not really a high bar LOL. I think that while our options for Spikes are pretty much limited to the two you mentioned (Gastrodon/Chesnaught), those two are good enough that, as well as the general presence of Rocks being very high thanks to Kleavor existing in general, not running removal and just opting for bootspam on any structure that isn't HO feels extremely risky. Knock Off isn't uncommon either, so it definitely feels like you're playing fast and loose for the sake of being able to structure your team the way you want to. Not that I dislike this philosophy, I honestly support it, but I think that advertising opting out of removal as a widespread option isn't quite true.
Also, yeah, weakness stacking is something you have to account for with the rest of the team, but when those stacked weaknesses end up being things like Ground, Grass, or Water, offensive types that are already very strong right now, it definitely becomes a lot more pressing.
Again, thank you to everyone for your responses and insights, very glad to see that this sparked a discussion.
If that thing keep fog OU gonna keep it most of the time i guess
Also you talk about laking Flying- fogers so i ask what hppn about
?? Isn't as good anymore??
I understand that it doesnt exactly match up into the spinners very well, but the thing is that no spinner other than quaq actually wants to come in, meaning they cant spin rocks away the moment they go up. Treads gets obliterated by flare blitz and doesnt want to chance it, whereas donphan can switch into blitze once, but its still kinda dicey. It does take a bit of prediction at times which is why i understand the doubt you have but the idea is that the spinners have to either have to come in later which means you get hazard chip on some things, or the spinner plays the dangerous game of switching in hard as rocks go up to force arc out to spin.
mandibuzz loses 1v1 to gholdengo so you can trust me in knowing that it is 100% falling to uu, it may survive the first month though as new toyIf that thing keep fog OU gonna keep it most of the time i guess
Also you talk about laking Flying- fogers so i ask what hppn about
With Tera Dark, it actually does very respectable damage to offensive versions of Gholdengo with both Knock Off and Foul Play, all while taking unboosted Make It Rain pretty well. Of course, bulky NP Versions win vs Mandibuzz and Gholdengo also has the option of going Tera.
Still, I agree with your analysis, but I would say Mandibuzz will take 2 or 3 months at least to reach UU.
On the topic of niche hazard removals, recently brambleghast has piqued my interest as something potentially underrated.
On paper, the tumbleweed has some very useful defensive utility, checking most breloom, ursaluna, quaquval, and torn sets all in one slot, which is huge for slower paced teams. (The bear threatens a 2hko, but bramble outspeeds without any ev investment.) It also provides hazard control and is a spiker that beats the most common spinners in phan, treads, and quaq, which is great for role compression. For the attacking move, I prefer power whip to actually pressure quaq and the bear, and it hits surprisingly hard against neutral targets thanks to a solid base 115 attack stat. However, shadow ball could also be a decent option for better neutral coverage, though it's noticeably weaker, and shadow sneak's priority is always useful.
However, the tumbleweed still has some pretty significant flaws. For one, 55/70/70 bulk is miserable if it's not taking resistant hits. Most special or super effective hits can break through it fairly easily. Also, only being able to fit one offensive move is disappointing, as both attacking options are pretty exploitable. Lastly, it is completely stonewalled by dirge, even with shadow ball, which makes it nearly impossible to get the spin off without forcing the tera first. With all that being said, though, I believe the brambleghast is somewhat overlooked, and could possibly find an interesting niche in the tier.
Brambleghast @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Wind Rider
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Spikes
- Rapid Spin
- Strength Sap
- Power Whip/Shadow Ball/Shadow Sneak
Evs are unoptimized, but I think that physically defensive is probably better to check luna and loom a bit more safely
Ability: Wind Rider
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Spikes
- Rapid Spin
- Strength Sap
- Power Whip/Shadow Ball/Shadow Sneak
Evs are unoptimized, but I think that physically defensive is probably better to check luna and loom a bit more safely
252+ Atk Technician Breloom Rock Tomb vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Brambleghast: 97-115 (30.9 - 36.7%) -- 70.2% chance to 3HKO
8 Atk Brambleghast Power Whip vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Breloom: 88-104 (33.7 - 39.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Guts Ursaluna Headlong Rush vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Brambleghast: 153-181 (48.8 - 57.8%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Guts Ursaluna Fire Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Brambleghast: 258-304 (82.4 - 97.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
8 Atk Brambleghast Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ursaluna: 282-332 (60.7 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
8 Atk Brambleghast Power Whip vs. 208 HP / 252+ Def Donphan: 186-222 (49.8 - 59.5%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
8 Atk Brambleghast Power Whip vs. 208 HP / 252+ Def Donphan: 186-222 (49.8 - 59.5%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Iron Treads Knock Off vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Brambleghast: 94-112 (30 - 35.7%) -- 29.4% chance to 3HKO
8 Atk Brambleghast Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Iron Treads: 126-148 (32.8 - 38.5%) -- 24.5% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
8 Atk Brambleghast Power Whip vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Breloom: 88-104 (33.7 - 39.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Guts Ursaluna Headlong Rush vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Brambleghast: 153-181 (48.8 - 57.8%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Guts Ursaluna Fire Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Brambleghast: 258-304 (82.4 - 97.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
8 Atk Brambleghast Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ursaluna: 282-332 (60.7 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
8 Atk Brambleghast Power Whip vs. 208 HP / 252+ Def Donphan: 186-222 (49.8 - 59.5%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
8 Atk Brambleghast Power Whip vs. 208 HP / 252+ Def Donphan: 186-222 (49.8 - 59.5%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Iron Treads Knock Off vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Brambleghast: 94-112 (30 - 35.7%) -- 29.4% chance to 3HKO
8 Atk Brambleghast Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Iron Treads: 126-148 (32.8 - 38.5%) -- 24.5% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
On paper, the tumbleweed has some very useful defensive utility, checking most breloom, ursaluna, quaquval, and torn sets all in one slot, which is huge for slower paced teams. (The bear threatens a 2hko, but bramble outspeeds without any ev investment.) It also provides hazard control and is a spiker that beats the most common spinners in phan, treads, and quaq, which is great for role compression. For the attacking move, I prefer power whip to actually pressure quaq and the bear, and it hits surprisingly hard against neutral targets thanks to a solid base 115 attack stat. However, shadow ball could also be a decent option for better neutral coverage, though it's noticeably weaker, and shadow sneak's priority is always useful.
However, the tumbleweed still has some pretty significant flaws. For one, 55/70/70 bulk is miserable if it's not taking resistant hits. Most special or super effective hits can break through it fairly easily. Also, only being able to fit one offensive move is disappointing, as both attacking options are pretty exploitable. Lastly, it is completely stonewalled by dirge, even with shadow ball, which makes it nearly impossible to get the spin off without forcing the tera first. With all that being said, though, I believe the brambleghast is somewhat overlooked, and could possibly find an interesting niche in the tier.
Does anyone else miss the May-June metas? I feel like the powercreep over the past few drops has made the tier generally worse but maybe that's just me.
I actually miss August meta. Like, Ursaluna and Hoopa-U are not very hard to prepare for. What is actually hard, is to prepare against them AND the previous threats. Hoopa-U and Ursaluna haven't made a single offensive threat substantially worse, they are just new threats that overwhelm the answers to previous offensive threats, while those tend to have good match-ups vs most of Ursaluna ahs Hoopa counterplay.
Hi
So obviously with luna around ive been willing to try this and its been working very well.
Some pros
- It has actually a few options for moves as it learns spikes sr, idef bp, some steel moves and even coil to make iron tail more reliable
- Natural immunity to ground and possibility to run tera ghost to shut down some luna sets. Possibility to outspeed it pretty easily.
- good matchup against (thats become p rare ngl), and even stuff like , , that can't really do any damage to you with most sets
- stratospheric defense, decent hp and atk, serviceable speed to make use of its assets
- actually good into broken
Some cons
- Reliance on BP means you don't do anything into a few mons, notably
- Reliance on leftovers but its not that bad. It forces a lot of switches and hp support isn't too awful rn. Also even wo lefto Treads and Phan are not a problem. Watch out for repeted Volt Switches at worst
-
strong so you will need tera ghost probably more than youd like
Ill add better replays when i get more, forgot to take some early on. But here are three in decent ladder range that i find relevant (first one the best but other two show interesting things)
- vs Corporate Donkey: Worm keeps hazards up against Treads very easily even after losing leftos. Treads just can't do more than 4%. Eventually that helps me break Gastro Dirge which is a tough matchup
- vs Daplexis: Once worm is terad Ursaluna is made useless and thats one breaker out. I feel like Haxorus couldve won tho (i had cleaner ursaluna games but FORGOT to save)
- vs poisany: got a few lucky crits but orthworm managed to put hazards up and wear down a muk which is AMAZING for my team
stay fresh
Some pros
- It has actually a few options for moves as it learns spikes sr, idef bp, some steel moves and even coil to make iron tail more reliable
- Natural immunity to ground and possibility to run tera ghost to shut down some luna sets. Possibility to outspeed it pretty easily.
- good matchup against
(thats become p rare ngl), and even stuff like , , that can't really do any damage to you with most sets- stratospheric defense, decent hp and atk, serviceable speed to make use of its assets
- actually good into broken
Some cons
- Reliance on BP means you don't do anything into a few mons, notably
- Reliance on leftovers but its not that bad. It forces a lot of switches and hp support isn't too awful rn. Also even wo lefto Treads and Phan are not a problem. Watch out for repeted Volt Switches at worst
-
strong so you will need tera ghost probably more than youd likeIll add better replays when i get more, forgot to take some early on. But here are three in decent ladder range that i find relevant (first one the best but other two show interesting things)
- vs Corporate Donkey: Worm keeps hazards up against Treads very easily even after losing leftos. Treads just can't do more than 4%. Eventually that helps me break Gastro Dirge which is a tough matchup
- vs Daplexis: Once worm is terad Ursaluna is made useless and thats one breaker out. I feel like Haxorus couldve won tho (i had cleaner ursaluna games but FORGOT to save)
- vs poisany: got a few lucky crits but orthworm managed to put hazards up and wear down a muk which is AMAZING for my team
stay fresh
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With PS updated, I thought I’d ramble about the new moves for a bit
With toxic, bellibolt doesn’t need to tera to threaten gastro, which is huge. Umbreon also becomes slightly less of a passive blob, but while it won’t be a tier staple or anything maybe it can find a niche on stall teams?
Lumping these together as knock is especially big for these imo. Lokix becomes even more threatening to boots reliant checks like mence, talon, and torn, and its tinted lens u-turn is even more dangerous when the opponent is also taking hazard chip. Quaq can use knock to break through the slowtwins and tera ghost gastro, but it also lets bulkier spin sets wear down its checks for a teammate or a lategame sweep. Lastly, scizor gets a strong move to threaten dirge without giving up an item slot, while having another funny button for cb to click
Knock also gives stronger stab to the offensive darks. Knock ttar feels surreal after all this time, but it’s incredibly strong on offensive sets and good utility on its support sets. Knock makes setup variants of zarude more self sufficient as well as making boots and scarf pivot sets more effective. Lastly, weavile gets a significantly stronger stab move that makes cb and sd sets much more threatening.
Lastly, the more utility focused knock users. There’s not much to say here, the bulky mons become less passive when they can threaten item removal and the pivots become more effective at wearing down the opponent. Knock is such a powerful tool that almost anything that can run it will, so hazard stack seems a lot more powerful, and boots reliant mons might struggle to adjust.
Scald is back with a vengeance, and it gives the more niche waters a new tool over quag, quaq, and gastro. Mola gets both scald and flip turn, which is a massive buff for slower teams. Meanwhile, scald helps slowking’s 4MSS by giving it an option to threaten switchins regardless of its coverage, and slowbro can ruin physical attackers to become more dangerous after a few calm minds.
Grassy glide was nerfed to 55 bp, but it’s still one of the stronger priority moves in the tier. Being able to consistently revenge kill quaq is huge utility while enabling mons like hawlucha, breloom, and muk anywhere from offense to balance is very useful. Unfortunately, breloom didn’t get the move.
Flip turn hits decently hard even on female’s specs sets and it gives male basc a strong and spammable stab. No poltergeist means that female is still the better choice, but it’s something.
Speaking of poltergeist, the physical ghosts get a much more spammable stab move. Edge in particular is much more dangerous after a boost, but only having three of bitter blade, sneak, cc, and polt is annoying. Bramble gets actual ghost stab, but the anti synergy with polt and a hazard stack mon isn’t great. Overall, though, polt is still a massive buff for the few physical ghosts that learn it
Lastly, scale shot with loaded dice is a dangerous option for the dragons. Consistent 100 or 125 bp stab is huge for hax, and the speed boost makes sd sets a bit easier to justify while demolishing defensive teams. Scale shot is probably less useful for drago, but it’s a funny option that could potentially sweep
Toxic
Knock off 
Bug bite
Scald
Grassy Glide
Flip turn
Poltergeist
Scale shot
Knock off
Bug bite
Scald
Grassy Glide
Flip turn
Poltergeist
Scale shot
With toxic, bellibolt doesn’t need to tera to threaten gastro, which is huge. Umbreon also becomes slightly less of a passive blob, but while it won’t be a tier staple or anything maybe it can find a niche on stall teams?
Lumping these together as knock is especially big for these imo. Lokix becomes even more threatening to boots reliant checks like mence, talon, and torn, and its tinted lens u-turn is even more dangerous when the opponent is also taking hazard chip. Quaq can use knock to break through the slowtwins and tera ghost gastro, but it also lets bulkier spin sets wear down its checks for a teammate or a lategame sweep. Lastly, scizor gets a strong move to threaten dirge without giving up an item slot, while having another funny button for cb to click
Knock also gives stronger stab to the offensive darks. Knock ttar feels surreal after all this time, but it’s incredibly strong on offensive sets and good utility on its support sets. Knock makes setup variants of zarude more self sufficient as well as making boots and scarf pivot sets more effective. Lastly, weavile gets a significantly stronger stab move that makes cb and sd sets much more threatening.
Lastly, the more utility focused knock users. There’s not much to say here, the bulky mons become less passive when they can threaten item removal and the pivots become more effective at wearing down the opponent. Knock is such a powerful tool that almost anything that can run it will, so hazard stack seems a lot more powerful, and boots reliant mons might struggle to adjust.
Scald is back with a vengeance, and it gives the more niche waters a new tool over quag, quaq, and gastro. Mola gets both scald and flip turn, which is a massive buff for slower teams. Meanwhile, scald helps slowking’s 4MSS by giving it an option to threaten switchins regardless of its coverage, and slowbro can ruin physical attackers to become more dangerous after a few calm minds.
Grassy glide was nerfed to 55 bp, but it’s still one of the stronger priority moves in the tier. Being able to consistently revenge kill quaq is huge utility while enabling mons like hawlucha, breloom, and muk anywhere from offense to balance is very useful. Unfortunately, breloom didn’t get the move.
Flip turn hits decently hard even on female’s specs sets and it gives male basc a strong and spammable stab. No poltergeist means that female is still the better choice, but it’s something.
Speaking of poltergeist, the physical ghosts get a much more spammable stab move. Edge in particular is much more dangerous after a boost, but only having three of bitter blade, sneak, cc, and polt is annoying. Bramble gets actual ghost stab, but the anti synergy with polt and a hazard stack mon isn’t great. Overall, though, polt is still a massive buff for the few physical ghosts that learn it
Lastly, scale shot with loaded dice is a dangerous option for the dragons. Consistent 100 or 125 bp stab is huge for hax, and the speed boost makes sd sets a bit easier to justify while demolishing defensive teams. Scale shot is probably less useful for drago, but it’s a funny option that could potentially sweep
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