so like just a better version of rhyperior basically?I'm really enjoying playing Gargancl, such a great phys. defensive wall that's essentially unkillable with Tera Water. Salt Cure and Recover let him force out walls since toxic is not an essential on anything
Exactly, the whole metagame is not revolving around Toxic at least in comparison to Gen 8 because so much Pokémon lost the ability to learn it. Gargnacl is a fantastic Pokémon and Salt Cure allows it to excel as a wall in OU by just chipping damage if the opponent decides to stay in, combine that with that fact that you're limited to Toxic on these Pokémon: https://www.smogon.com/dex/sv/moves/toxic/I'm really enjoying playing Gargancl, such a great phys. defensive wall that's essentially unkillable with Tera Water. Salt Cure and Recover let him force out walls since toxic is not an essential on anything
why does limited toxic distribution even matter? garganacl is immune to all status anyway, no?Exactly, the whole metagame is not revolving around Toxic at least in comparison to Gen 8 because so much Pokémon lost the ability to learn it. Gargnacl is a fantastic Pokémon and Salt Cure allows it to excel as a wall in OU by just chipping damage if the opponent decides to stay in, combine that with that fact that you're limited to Toxic on these Pokémon: https://www.smogon.com/dex/sv/moves/toxic/
It's a beast.
I was referring to in general to conjunction with other walls on the team in terms of switching in / out the other walls you can leverage it's ability. Also it's ability is really important now with the non-existence of Aromatherapy and Heal Bell.why does limited toxic distribution even matter? garganacl is immune to all status anyway, no?
I think if you really want to do bans to make balance and stall more reasonable, you have to get rid of gholdengo and then maybe annihilape. Gholdengo makes it to where you must have a rapid spinner on your team or a magic bounce pokemon(which doesn't even provide a great solution). Basically gholdengo makes it fairly difficult to have answers to everything because you must have a rapid spinner.I'd like to just shoutout the dev team and admin for not banning leppa berry during endless battle clause construction because it's now a mainstream relevant item for Pawmot. I think the tier will be in a pretty good spot once Cyclizar, Gholdengo, and Chi-Yu are gone.
I'd say that for stall and balance specifically Curse Dondozo usually is a pretty good answer if playing carefullyI think if you really want to do bans to make balance and stall more reasonable, you have to get rid of gholdengo and then maybe annihilape. Gholdengo makes it to where you must have a rapid spinner on your team or a magic bounce pokemon(which doesn't even provide a great solution). Basically gholdengo makes it fairly difficult to have answers to everything because you must have a rapid spinner.
Secondly after him is annihilape. Because of rage fist, eventually you just lose the game. I mean you could use something like wigglytuff to wall him, sort of. Basically if you can get something resistant to fighting with a normal type immunity to ghost that is tanky enough you can have a solution. But it fundamentally makes it to where after his rage fist is strong enough youll lose the game.
I'm always scared the council will ban all the offensive options and the meta will become a stall fest. speaking from a completely casual point of view. I'm more scared of breaking a stall team on the ladder then facing a super strong power house like iron bundleThe no skill Ostrich may warrant thorough tiering examination. It’s starting to get out of hand
If you’re scared of stall with no reliable hazard removal, no Heal Bell, and no Magic Guard, then perhaps you should reassess a bit of how you approach it.I'm always scared the council will ban all the offensive options and the meta will become a stall fest. speaking from a completely casual point of view. I'm more scared of breaking a stall team on the ladder then facing a super strong power house like iron bundle
very annoying Pokémon that is likely to get more attention if the most prominent threats leave OU.The no skill Ostrich may warrant thorough tiering examination. It’s starting to get out of hand
a tera meta would possibly lead to the best threats, like espartha, dragonite, etc, eventually being banned in an attempt to keep the mechanic intactRe:Espathra and the metagame in general.
I think the crux of Tera discussion is ultimately going to come down how many things Tera breaks. Espathra without Tera would probably end up a good not great option on screens or similar builds, but it's ability to be both a fairy or fighting type, gain stab moves with those types, and them often having seperate counters really makes it hard to say it's a healthy mon for the metagame. This fundamentally applies to so many pokemon (moon, kingambit, volcarona, dragonite, chien pao, gholdengo, annihilape, etc.) I think the it's hard to imagine healthy metagame where Tera and a bunch of powerful pokemon are coexisting. I think this is an instance of cognitive dissonance from the adamantly pro Tera, bans are inherently anti-fun, pro stall and alienating casuals crowd. Would it really be a more fun and engaging experience if a large portion of the (often most cool and fun) pokemon are banned to ubers in the already tiny dex we have at the moment? I don't think Tera is really close to the level of absurdity that dynamax was, and there's definitely skill involved in playing with the mechanic, but I think having more diverse options to use in a metagame is better than the eventuality of having huge swaths of mons getting banned just save a generational gimmick.
Imo, the thing that makes it even more annoying to deal with is dealing with an espathra + grimm/cyclizar team. It's much easier to pressure it when it's not behind screens or a sub (or both <:( ), even after it teras. Teams without those I can wriggle around with, but it's still really annoying. Not saying this as a defense of tera, but as more that I think espathra loves support and if it gets it it's almost impossible to stop it (ig skeledirge helps? lol)Re:Espathra and the metagame in general.
I think the crux of Tera discussion is ultimately going to come down how many things Tera breaks. Espathra without Tera would probably end up a good not great option on screens or similar builds, but it's ability to be both a fairy or fighting type, gain stab moves with those types, and them often having seperate counters really makes it hard to say it's a healthy mon for the metagame. This fundamentally applies to so many pokemon (moon, kingambit, volcarona, dragonite, chien pao, gholdengo, annihilape, etc.) I think the it's hard to imagine healthy metagame where Tera and a bunch of powerful pokemon are coexisting. I think this is an instance of cognitive dissonance from the adamantly pro Tera, bans are inherently anti-fun, pro stall and alienating casuals crowd. Would it really be a more fun and engaging experience if a large portion of the (often most cool and fun) pokemon are banned to ubers in the already tiny dex we have at the moment? I don't think Tera is really close to the level of absurdity that dynamax was, and there's definitely skill involved in playing with the mechanic, but I think having more diverse options to use in a metagame is better than the eventuality of having huge swaths of mons getting banned just save a generational gimmick.
It’s massively enabled by Tera, Screensnarl and Cheater Tail, but it’s definitely still oppressive without them. Revival Blessing and Shed Tail need quickbans before anything else is even remotely discussed, though.The no skill Ostrich may warrant thorough tiering examination. It’s starting to get out of hand
As I said in my post, it's hard imagine them being to able to co-exist. Nevermind the "if/when" mind games when it comes to tera, or even that many pokemon have multiple viable tera typses, but so many of these pokemon we have in this insanely power crept generation are fundamentally balanced by their type weaknesses. Kingambit, Roaring Moon, Volcarona, Dragonite, Chien Pao are all elite tera users that have 4x weaknesses, nevermind the ones like Espathra and Annihilape that would be infinitely healthier without being able to change their types that only have 2x weaknesses.a tera meta would possibly lead to the best threats, like espartha, dragonite, etc, eventually being banned in a bid to keep the mechanic intact
a non Tera meta would possibly lead to a less creative metagame, however with less banned Pokémon overall making it more diverse overall.
curious to see why not just discuss a situation where the metas co-exist.
Best chi-Yu answer right now, and can In a pinch, force a Non air baloon gholdengo to retreat, also Thunder wave shits on so many things rnhow is ttar OU? I never see him on the ladder. how is ttar used in this meta? what sets do people use and what utility does it offer?
Between Chi Yu, Kingambit, Ting Lu, I think it would have a really hard time without being able to acquire fighting coverage or fairy stab + sucker punch resistance through tera. Not that it would be bad at all, but it's really tera that creates difficult counter play.Wouldn't be sad to see the bird go. I've struggled more with that thing recently than Annihilape, Chi-Yu or whatever else.
I don't think it's just Tera pushing it over the edge either. Speed Boost and Stored Power on the same mon is always gonna be an issue, because Substitute can pretty much guarantee that it'll at least get to fire off 140bp Stored Powers. You cannot afford to use that to heal up either because if you switch to anything too passive it can Calm Minds. It feels very uninteractice to be honest.
This true, as long as Chi-Yu doesn’t have Fighting Tera…which then becomes a much different story with Tera Blast.Best chi-Yu answer right now, and can In a pinch, force a Non air baloon gholdengo to retreat, also Thunder wave shits on so many things rn