Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [Volcarona Banned]

[YubelVT]

ok this is my last post about uber dropping but this is insane. Defensive teams being "forced" to run covert cloak for garg was I think a month 1 thing before people fully learned how to play around salt cure and abuse garg. Garg is obscene and stupid and was arguably banworthy at one point, but no longer is that the case. Also, the difference between salt cure and serene grace air slash is that salt cure is not a strong move in terms of base power. The chip and forced switches is what makes it so good.

Oh if only you realized how untrue this would be, me of Christmas week 2023. On page 63 of this fucking thread I thought this was the last uber dropping post I would make, but that was unreasonable because why on earth would smogon users ever want to remain on topic

ok I love the idea but, like, why not just go for trickscarf? it's useless on more things (and even a hinderance to slow pivoters!) and rotom can actually use it. Even without speed investment it creeps crown, tusk, ghold, and hamurott, important targets that you might want to lock into a move or move first against.

I've said this before in my deoxys-speed posts but I really dislike tricking scarves onto things because I really like having as much control as I can over speed in my games and I often want to trick faster choice users out of their boosting item of choice (tricking a specs pult choice band for example). A different reason for washtom specifically is that trick scarf is a set that I've used before and I wanted to do something different with him.

I’ve decided to give another chance. I cooked up a team, with and as partners.
Fighting/Flying is very good offensively (since died) and pretty good defensively too (Flying type is great for immunity to EQ and Spikes, and the Fighting-type makes it Rocks-neutral! Huge, since it likes going for big Brave Birds.)

The on lets it outspeed , , unboosted , and some other miscellaneous scarfers. I might try too.

Kantonian Zapdos will rise to OU once more, new toy syndrome and all that. It will always be OU or OU adjacent and this generation will not change that theory.

 

[Cautiousduck]

Today I played against a leftovers Sub, Protect, Freeze dry, EP Kyurem PP stall. This kyurem was supported by a Sdef gliscor (tera water if needed), SDEF corviknight w/ defog Bravebird and a dondozo for backup. This Balance/stall killing demon had 404 subs with enough Evs for sub to also tank Clodsire EQ. Felt disgusted to no end.

The most disheartening thing is the 10% chance to freeze, you think you have a game plan to contain this thing but suddenly that freeze hits and everything is out the window. Sub is back up and you are in for another round. Not to forget freeze dry is at 32 PP, so imagine the terror when this thing gets going.
Yes hazards can help against it because no boots, but there is defog corv (The enemy of hazard stall) and 2 other team slots to help with gholdengo and whatever else.

Kyurem is too damn strong, It constrains team building way too much and even if you prep from it, there is a chance to freeze.
This sub protect none sense adds more uncertainty to its set options. If not scouted you think its specs, scarfed, boots or DD because its being held back and never sent in under hazards, you decide to go into your answer or sack a pokemon annnnnd its sub. You loss the pokemon anyways and its got a sub, you then go into a fat mon or something that can take a hit then KO back, buuuut you get frozen. Grats you lost the game.

Finally to quote Mike Tyson "Everybody has a plan until they get punched(frozen) in the face"

 

[YubelVT]

Today I played against a leftovers Sub, Protect, Freeze dry, EP Kyurem PP stall. This kyurem was supported by a Sdef gliscor (tera water if needed), SDEF corviknight w/ defog Bravebird and a dondozo for backup. This Balance/stall killing demon had 404 subs with enough Evs for sub to also tank Clodsire EQ. Felt disgusted to no end.

The most disheartening thing is the 10% chance to freeze, you think you have a game plan to contain this thing but suddenly that freeze hits and everything is out the window. Sub is back up and you are in for another round. Not to forget freeze dry is at 32 PP, so imagine the terror when this thing gets going.
Yes hazards can help against it because no boots, but there is defog corv (The enemy of hazard stall) and 2 other team slots to help with gholdengo and whatever else.

Kyurem is too damn strong, It constrains team building way too much and even if you prep from it, there is a chance to freeze.
This sub protect none sense adds more uncertainty to its set options. If not scouted you think its specs, scarfed, boots or DD because its being held back and never sent in under hazards, you decide to go into your answer or sack a pokemon annnnnd its sub. You loss the pokemon anyways and its got a sub, you then go into a fat mon or something that can take a hit then KO back, buuuut you get frozen. Grats you lost the game.

Finally to quote Mike Tyson "Everybody has a plan until they get punched(frozen) in the face"

This is basically subroost kyurem and this is the same bullshit it's been pulling since gen 6. This set on top of all the other good ones is definitely too much. (obligatory fuck stall too)

 

[Wapf]

I still hate that the rumored freeze change never happened. Freeze is legit the least competitive most nonsense mechanic in the game and it’s crazy that it survived all of the changes over the years

 

[NotDaProGamer]

I still hate that the rumored freeze change never happened. Freeze is legit the least competitive most nonsense mechanic in the game and it’s crazy that it survived all of the changes over the years

Say it with me!
We Want Frostbite!
We Want Frostbite!
Legends Arceus Statuses are Goated!
We Want Frostbite!
We Want Frostbite!
Legends Arceus Statuses are Goated!

 

[DaRotomMachine]

Say it with me!
We Want Frostbite!
We Want Frostbite!
Legends Arceus Statuses are Goated!
We Want Frostbite!
We Want Frostbite!
Legends Arceus Statuses are Goated!

Say it with me!
We Want Frostbite!
We Want Frostbite!
Legends Arceus Statuses are Goated!
We Want Frostbite!
We Want Frostbite!
Legends Arceus Statuses are Goated!

 

[YubelVT]

Say it with me!
We Want Frostbite!
We Want Frostbite!
Legends Arceus Statuses are Goated!
We Want Frostbite!
We Want Frostbite!
Legends Arceus Statuses are Goated!

no

this pasta only hurts your cause

 

[Welcome to mars]

Say it with me!
We Want Frostbite!
We Want Frostbite!
Legends Arceus Statuses are Goated!
We Want Frostbite!
We Want Frostbite!
Legends Arceus Statuses are Goated!

we? What on earth do you mean by ”we”

why should our special attackers be nerfed?

why should my glaceon be denied of the right to disable the opponent while spamming choice specs ice beam?

thats not what smogon was built upon, thats not what VGC was built on, by removing one of the most skillful components of pokemon as a whole, you will destroy competitive pokemon, and without a tier where carkol is viable, the dark ages shall rise and all will be hopeless


To celebrate the glory of paralysis, freeze and burn, i advise everyone to go out there and use status spread teams, we are lucky to have things like these

 

[Blaze_101392]

I still hate that the rumored freeze change never happened. Freeze is legit the least competitive most nonsense mechanic in the game and it’s crazy that it survived all of the changes over the years

I'm honestly curious why Legends changed sleep and freeze to begin with. The game is the most single player of any Pokemon game and there both mechanics are what ever.

we? What on earth do you mean by ”we”

why should our special attackers be nerfed?

why should my glaceon be denied of the right to disable the opponent while spamming choice specs ice beam?

thats not what smogon was built upon, thats not what VGC was built on, by removing one of the most skillful components of pokemon as a whole, you will destroy competitive pokemon, and without a tier where carkol is viable, the dark ages shall rise and all will be hopeless


To celebrate the glory of paralysis, freeze and burn, i advise everyone to go out there and use status spread teams, we are lucky to have things like these

Why were special attackers arbitrarily better than physical attackers from the get go. It has taken YEARS for the old special types to finally get good physical moves and even then electric types STILL suffer from a lack of options for being physical. Fire too doesn't have a basic reliable move akin to flamethrower almost 30 years into the games history. To say nothing of the fact that Rock, Fighting and Bug just didn't have moves as good as the special attacks for the first decade. Why do physical attackers have to deal with intimidate, one of the single best abilities just making them worse. Why do physical attackers have to deal with burn to begin with. From a game design perspective both types of attackers should be treated the same but for some reason physical attackers have always been a step behind in that race.

Because the point of playing a game is to actually play the game and you straight up can't play when you're frozen. And if freeze was switched to frostbite you still at least cripple any unlucky special attacker and get some passive damage making KOs easier.

How is freeze in any way skillful. It is the only status condition in the game that is pure luck to even trigger. And outside of Secret Power which isn't even in the game anymore the best odds to happen is 10% which isn't something you can reliable try to fish for in the same way you might fish with Scald or Discharge. Honestly, this whole point makes me think you aren't serious in what you're saying because of how silly the claim that changing freeze would "destroy competitive Pokemon".

 

[Return to Zero]

I don't think there's much point in complaining about what status conditions we'd like to have in the game. I think it's generally agreed that no one really like Freeze and Frostbite would be way better, but since this is a thread for discussing the state of the current metagame and no one reading this has any say in how the devs balance their game, it kinda just feels like making wish lists.

Also, copypastas are annoying and disruptive. Please don't.

Now, on to actual metagame discussion, I think we ought to talk about the real issue, Kyurem. Freeze isn't the only threatening thing about it, it's just bullshit on top of bullshit. It's got a ton of annoying and incredibly strong sets, and the 10% chance to Freeze is just icing. No one else's Ice Beams have had people calling for a Freeze Clause. Maybe it's Kyurem that's the problem, guys.

 

[EpicGuy321]

I don't think there's much point in complaining about what status conditions we'd like to have in the game. I think it's generally agreed that no one really like Freeze and Frostbite would be way better, but since this is a thread for discussing the state of the current metagame and no one reading this has any say in how the devs balance their game, it kinda just feels like making wish lists.

Also, copypastas are annoying and disruptive. Please don't.

Now, on to actual metagame discussion, I think we ought to talk about the real issue, Kyurem. Freeze isn't the only threatening thing about it, it's just bullshit on top of bullshit. It's got a ton of annoying and incredibly strong sets, and the 10% chance to Freeze is just icing. No one else's Ice Beams have had people calling for a Freeze Clause. Maybe it's Kyurem that's the problem, guys.

and the fact that Earth Power + Freeze Dry is only resisted by and , the latter of which has like -36 spdef

 

[Ehmcee]

and the fact that Earth Power + Freeze Dry is only resisted by and , the latter of which has like -36 spdef

would like to have a word with you

 

[sire clod]

Today I played against a leftovers Sub, Protect, Freeze dry, EP Kyurem PP stall. This kyurem was supported by a Sdef gliscor (tera water if needed), SDEF corviknight w/ defog Bravebird and a dondozo for backup. This Balance/stall killing demon had 404 subs with enough Evs for sub to also tank Clodsire EQ. Felt disgusted to no end.

Anyways, someone wanna link me a good kyurem stall team? ️️

 

[awyp]

So dabbling a little bit into the tier this week I can easily say that Volcarona is unhealthy in conjunction with tera, I'll never regret asking for it to be unbanned because it should've been a community suspect test or choice since it's extremely fringe on how people see it but to see it out the tier and back in I can easily say it needs to go back to ubers. The unpredictability of tera is one thing but to combine it with Quiver Dance + Tera Blast it becomes a joke with a fantastic move pool and option to go from bulky to full on attacker.

 

[sire clod]

So dabbling a little bit into the tier this week I can easily say that Volcarona is unhealthy in conjunction with tera

agreed, while there's definitely more revenge killer options after indigo disk Roaring Moon and Volc still don't really bring anything positive to the metagame imo.

 

[sire clod]

agreed, while there's definitely more revenge killer options after indigo disk Roaring Moon and Volc still don't really bring anything positive to the metagame imo.

like, one of the "best" ways i've dealt with roaring moon coming in on the team i'm currently laddering with is to hard switch into scarf meowscarada on their DD, which objectively isn't really a good play most of the time, it just works because the ladder isn't tournament

 

[ant4456]

I’ve decided to give another chance. I cooked up a team, with and as partners.
Fighting/Flying is very good offensively (since died) and pretty good defensively too (Flying type is great for immunity to EQ and Spikes, and the Fighting-type makes it Rocks-neutral! Huge, since it likes going for big Brave Birds.)

The on lets it outspeed , , unboosted , and some other miscellaneous scarfers. I might try too.

Please this is so much harder to read, please use less emotes in your text.

This trend in general is a mistake IMO

 

[EpicGuy321]

Please this is so much harder to read, please use less emotes in your text.

This trend in general is a mistake IMO

have you considered that it’s funny though

 

[EpicGuy321]

would like to have a word with you

tell him I’m busy

 

[StompyStomps]

Say it with me!
We Want Frostbite!
We Want Frostbite!
Legends Arceus Statuses are Goated!
We Want Frostbite!
We Want Frostbite!
Legends Arceus Statuses are Goated!

we? who's we? listen, not everyone wants Frostbite, its like burn, and at least with being Frozen, it can sometimes only linger for a turn or 2, while Frostbite will remain indefinitely, and yeah, Freeze can feel a little bullshit at times, I want my feeling of me not being able to do anything be because I can't do anything, as opposed to be doing something yet also doing nothing.

Now for the part where I talk about why we aren't getting Frostbite this generation, and that's simple. It's not in the current mainline games. I personally want Drowsiness back, but changed. But here's the thing, I'm not going to complain about what we have now, because while you might think it's unfair, not everyone thinks only being able to sleep only one Pokemon is unfair in modern competitive. If one of your Pokemon got frozen, then you were just an unfortunate case, as every move that can freeze only has a 10% chance to freeze.

But that's just my opinion, don't get to riled up over it.

 

[arnimacarni]

why should my glaceon be denied of the right to disable the opponent while spamming choice specs ice beam?

Bruh Glaceon is an Ice-type it can't get frostbite duh

Also the virgin choice specs ice beam vs the chad choice specs blizzard just saying

 

[TheTraininator]

So we’re now about half a day away from our new mythical dropping, and I wanted to theorymon a few cool sets it can run. I don’t know if it’s going to end up staying in OU, but I think it’s got some sauce to it!

Sets for *redacted*

Specially Defensive
Pecharunt @ Heavy-Duty Boots/Leftovers
Ability: Poison Puppeteer
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 SpDef
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Malignant Chain
- Hex / Shadow Ball
- Recover
- Toxic / Parting Shot

Pecharunt’s physical bulk is so immense that it can afford to invest heavily in special bulk to better utilize its Poison typing to check the tier’s offensive Fairies while still being able to leverage its high defense stat to check certain physically offensive threats, partially depending on if it’s willing to Tera. Scarf Enamorus can only do a maximum of 49.6% with Earth Power, and even +1 Valiant Psyshock caps at 66.4% thanks to Pecha’s massive base 160 defense.

Specs Pivot
Pecharunt @ Choice Specs
Ability: Poison Puppeteer
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpDef / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Malignant Chain
- Hex / Shadow Ball
- Tera Blast
- Parting Shot

I think Specs Pecharunt actually has a lot of potential because of the combination of how annoying it is to switch into its STABS and its ability to pivot. You aren’t really using this as a wallbreaker though; your goal is to bring it in on things it can soak hits from or spinblock and gradually spread status and damage amongst your opponent’s defensive backbone. Malignant Chain has a 50% chance to Badly Poison + Confuse, meaning nothing that isn’t Steel or Poison wants to switch into it since if it manages to land those statuses, the mere act of staying in after incurs the risk of heavy chip and giving the opponent a free turn. Tera Blast Fighting is kind of essential on this set for Kingambit, and max speed is used to get the jump on both Great Tusk and Gholdengo.


Nasty Plot
Pecharunt @ Leftovers
Ability: Poison Puppeteer
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Malignant Chain / Shadow Ball
- Tera Blast
- Nasty Plot
- Recover

Personally, I think Specs is gonna be better than Nasty Plot on Pecharunt, but being able to utilize its strong natural bulk and access to recovery to set up multiple Nasty Plots is definitely within the realm of possibility for Pecharunt. I think this set is more of a Tera hog than the other two since being down to only a single STAB option increases your dependence on Tera Blast. Has potential for sure, but I think Pecharunt would have really preferred Calm Mind.

Overall I think it’s a full moves short of maximum potential, but the tools it does have are really annoying, potent, and not to be slept on.

 

[CobsonYaoi]

Iron Crown is really good at shutting down lead Amoonguss. Being part Steel makes it immune to Sludge Bomb, and Electric Terrain keeps itself and its teammates awake. I'm currently this team made by another user here with minor tweaks such as making Samurott's Tera type Water to boost its Aqua Jets: https://pokepast.es/ca01b8beb3809060

 

[YubelVT]

Iron Crown is really good at shutting down lead Amoonguss. Being part Steel makes it immune to Sludge Bomb, and Electric Terrain keeps itself and its teammates awake. I'm currently this team made by another user here with minor tweaks such as making Samurott's Tera type Water to boost its Aqua Jets: https://pokepast.es/ca01b8beb3809060

holy shit

tapu koko at home (pincurchin does not count)

 

[Heatranator]

holy shit

tapu koko at home (pincurchin does not count)

If pincurchin didn't have 48 hp, and even as small a buff as to 60, it would be so much better. It has decent stats apart from hp and speed. Plus, it has recover, sucker punch, scald, spikes and toxic spikes. It has such a great movepool, but it is ruined by its hp stat.