Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [Volcarona Banned]

now that you've said this, i kinda want to figure out a way to make roaring moon work on stall that doesn't immediately turn it into semistall just by existing. so, guys, how do we turn roaring moon into a stallmon?
Roaring Moon @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 56 SpD / 200 Spe
Careful Nature
- Knock Off
- Roost
- Taunt
- U-turn

This is what I tried to cook up. 252 HP and 56 SpD with a Careful Nature lets you live a +2 Speedeoxys Ice Beam from full. Rest is dumped into Speed to make you as fast as possible. STAB Knock Off is very handy and great for general disruption, Roost for longevity, U-Turn for pivoting purposes and Taunt to prevent Roaring Moon from being afflicted by status or what have you.

Edit: If you want Proto SpD, you can opt for 148 SpD and 108 Spe. 108 Spe is just enough to outspeed Jolly Tusk while 148 SpD gives you 302.
 
I've seen some HOs, such as Pinkacross's team before the Indigo Disk dropped, use Assault Vest Goodra-Hisui, and that is pretty much one of the best Serperior checks there is given the mammoth special bulk and Sap Sipper making Goodra-Hisui immune to Leaf Storm, preventing it from getting Contrary boosts through spamming Leaf Storm.
Okay sounds good. Does goodra have any offensive sets that can wallbreak or sweep maybe? I don’t really want to replace hatterene in my team and I have a hatterene screens ho team.
 
Roaring Moon kinda works anywhere except stall. HO teams will want Choice Band with Speed boost under sun, BO teams will prefer Booster Energy sets to come in as a wincon later, that sort of thing. It's really strong and has good coverage, and this meta is absolutely loaded with Dragon types, so there's not much opportunity cost to running it.
Are you sure? HO in my experience wants to us the ddance sets. Not to mention that choice items are normally inferior on ho because they can be taken advantage of and force you out.
 
Are you sure? HO in my experience wants to us the ddance sets. Not to mention that choice items are normally inferior on ho because they can be taken advantage of and force you out.
I think even HO needs a wallbreaker or two on their team, lest they get walled by an Unaware mon or placed into a scenario where they simply can't setup. I believe DD Moon is better than Banded Moon, but I wouldn't discredit choiced wallbreakers or scarfers on HO.
 
Roaring Moon @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 56 SpD / 200 Spe
Careful Nature
- Knock Off
- Roost
- Taunt
- U-turn

This is what I tried to cook up. 252 HP and 56 SpD with a Careful Nature lets you live a +2 Speedeoxys Ice Beam from full. Rest is dumped into Speed to make you as fast as possible. STAB Knock Off is very handy and great for general disruption, Roost for longevity, U-Turn for pivoting purposes and Taunt to prevent Roaring Moon from being afflicted by status or what have you.

Edit: If you want Proto SpD, you can opt for 148 SpD and 108 Spe. 108 Spe is just enough to outspeed Jolly Tusk while 148 SpD gives you 302.
now that you've said this, i kinda want to figure out a way to make roaring moon work on stall that doesn't immediately turn it into semistall just by existing. so, guys, how do we turn roaring moon into a stallmon?
The set I thought of in 5 minutes was similar, but substituted knock of for jaw lock.

Roaring Moon @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Jaw Lock
- U-turn
- Roost
- Taunt

Against a poisoned team this set just wins right? Taunt to prevent healing, jaw lock to prevent reseting toxic count, roost for healing and u-turn to escape your own trapping.
 
I think even HO needs a wallbreaker or two on their team, lest they get walled by an Unaware mon or placed into a scenario where they simply can't setup. I believe DD Moon is better than Banded Moon, but I wouldn't discredit choiced wallbreakers or scarfers on HO.
I agree with you and think that HO NEEDS wallbreakers on the team to soften up the opponent’s team enough but you can have wallbreakers with booster energy and setup moves. They just generally outclass choiced wallbreakers on HO.
 
Oh, the days when Roaring Moon was considered a B Tier nobody.


Knock Off was a fine and appreciated addition to its movepool, but I think what really brought the bloodsoaked crescent into the limelight was the banning of Bax, just as the banning of Chien-Pao had opened up the doors for Black Kyurem lite. Gone was not only a mon who gave it stiff competition, but also loved to Tera Fairy in front of its face (if it were Banded) or would revenge it with a meaty Ice Shard. It didn't help matters that HO was the name of the game when the Teal Mask dropped, which was an archetype that Roaring Moon utterly thrived on.
 
I agree with you and think that HO NEEDS wallbreakers on the team to soften up the opponent’s team enough but you can have wallbreakers with booster energy and setup moves. They just generally outclass choiced wallbreakers on HO.
I disagree about Choice Items. Booster Energy only works for one appearance and only works on a handful of mons, Set-Up moves eat a turn and their Stat boosts disappear after a switch. Choiced Mons don't have to spend a turn setting up and they remain buffed as long as they have their item so you can switch/pivot them out and retain a powerful attack from them. 2 +1 Attacks outdamage 1 +2 Attack, and the greater frequency of clicking attacking moves will increase the incidence of critical hits further increasing damage potential. Choice Items require more skill to use but there's absolutely a reason to go out of your way to incorporate them onto your offensive team.
 
I run moon on my team already, but someone pointed out that Serperior can hit moon with glare on the switch in, then switch out and leave me with a paralyzed moon, which means moon isn’t that good of a check.
Raging Bolt is a lot slower than the two of them, but it's resistant to Leaf Storm, has access to Calm Mind to setup with Serperior and is immune to Glare's paralysis.
 
I disagree about Choice Items. Booster Energy only works for one appearance and only works on a handful of mons, Set-Up moves eat a turn and their Stat boosts disappear after a switch. Choiced Mons don't have to spend a turn setting up and they remain buffed as long as they have their item so you can switch/pivot them out and retain a powerful attack from them. 2 +1 Attacks outdamage 1 +2 Attack, and the greater frequency of clicking attacking moves will increase the incidence of critical hits further increasing damage potential. Choice Items require more skill to use but there's absolutely a reason to go out of your way to incorporate them onto your offensive team.
Booster energy’s problems aren’t that bad. You’re not going to do a lot of switching on ho and furthermore when you look at recent ho archetypes from good players, literally none of the Pokémon on their team have choiced items except for cleaners that end the game once they start attacking. Even then it’s only scarf and they’re only used at the end of the game to clean, not wallbreak.

Raging Bolt is a lot slower than the two of them, but it's resistant to Leaf Storm, has access to Calm Mind to setup with Serperior and is immune to Glare's paralysis.
Okay thanks a lot since I never actually realized raging bolt was a good switch in to Serperior. I actually run a calm mind set as a wallbreaker on a dual screens team I built around abusing choice scarf enamorus Tera stellar.

Hatterene is VERY good in this meta. Obviously it's always been excellent on HO as a hazard deterrent, but it also manages to be an incredibly adept sweeper. Mimikyu Stardust's HO team is an exemplary model of this; the entire team is peak offensive threats + glim, but I've found that hat can more often than not win the game on its own.


:Hatterene (F) @ Leftovers:leftovers:
Ability: Magic Bounce
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 200 Def / 56 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Draining Kiss
- Psyshock
- Mystical Fire

Hat also is v v good into rain; one of HO's biggest problems is getting outrun before it has an actual chance to setup. Tera water hat not only has the bulk to buy you a turn against banded and specs monsters, but it also lets you KO them in return, especially if you've managed to grab a calm mind up.

252+ Atk Choice Band Floatzel Wave Crash vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Tera Water Hatterene in Rain: 162-191 (50.9 - 60%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Another great attribute of hat is how well it synergizes with glim; against common hazard mons like Ace or Gliscor, Hatterene basically gets free cm boosts. It often does have to tera against Ace, but it can often set up completely freely against Glis. In both cases, draining kiss gives it incredible recovery.

252 Atk Tera Fire Cinderace Pyro Ball vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Tera Water Hatterene: 95-112 (29.8 - 35.2%) -- 18.9% chance to 3HKO
0 Atk Gliscor Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Hatterene: 81-96 (25.4 - 30.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 Atk Gliscor Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Hatterene: 103-123 (32.3 - 38.6%) -- 98.3% chance to 3HKO
I saw pinkacross running it as the classic core of it with roaring moon and volcarona on their ho team. They were running nuzzle on it to stop sweeps and cripple the opponent’s which I thought was cool. I agree that it’s very good in this meta because it can be a good check to darkrai if darkrai isn’t running a poison coverage move and you can also bait darkrai’s hypnosis and then magic bounce it back to darkrai.

ok, double post, but week 2 (??? lost track over christmas) thoughts:

threat creep is REAL. Trying to defensively deal with all of the crap is basically impossible: you bring dondozo to deal with Gouging Flame, but then you're weak to Bolt, so then you bring ting-lu, but then you're weak to Serperior, so you bring Volcarona, but then you're weak to Boulder, etc. etc. etc. The best way to win is to out-offense your opponent, and to this effect I'd like to shout out Blaziken for being an underrated threat; so many teams fall to the dual STAB after a SD boost, the only thing really safe is donbozo.

Darkrai SHOULD be a really good setup sweeper, because it outspeeds almost everything unboosted and there's no good defensive counterplay; however, there's the problem: Nothing is unboosted speed-wise and nobody's trying to defensively counter anything for reasons listed above. As of now darkrai dies way too easily to even be a threat without scarf, and scarf sets don't do NEARLY enough damage; anything remotely defensive, including pdef dondozo, completely counters it, and it doesn't do enough damage even to offensive pokemon to be considered as a good revenge-killing option. For instance, it only 3HKOs Garchomp + Gouging Flame and fails to KO pdef Ghold.

from my position at 1050 on the ladder I have seen almost no deo-s yet except as suicide leads, which feel annoying but no less than hamurott or grimmsnarl, so I can't comment on its brokenness

gholdengo feels a lot worse now; almost everything introduced either damages it to much to setup on, takes marginal damage from it, or both. GaG (me lmao what a stupid ability) for once doesn't feel so restricting. Unfortunately hazard control still sucks, but I think that's mainly because the only good one is Corv thanks to ghold usage dropping, which, while he is a good pivot, doesn't have the bulk to defog safely more than once and can't really punish setup sweepers running around everywhere. As a result, my marginally more successful teams have been either 3-4 boots mons with gliscor as a knock absorber, or used offensive pressure to prevent spikes from ever going up in the first place.

Kingambit is as stupid as always but imo not more stupid than how he was before.

Archaludon and Hydrapple feel like really nice glue and are the only slightly defensive pokemon I can usually get away with on teams. Archaludon practically counters rain teams without ting-lu, especially with Assault Vest and Electro Shot, while Hydrapple uses dragon tail and regenerator to semi-consistently waste booster energy and phase setup sweepers, as long as they don't oneshot you of course. Hydrapple is also hilarious design to me: I want to know what gamefreak employee looked at dipplin and said: "Yknow what this evoution line needs needs? MORE FUCKIN DIPPLIN HEADS!!!" Probably the same one that designed dudunsparce; give the man a medal already

webs is simultaneously really really good against any team that doesn't have serperior and really bad in the meta because it turns out giving serperior a +1 speed boost sometimes means you just kinda lose, isn't that quirky and fun?

speaking of serperior, he's definitely really underexplored. people seem to be gravitating towards the stellar tera blast sets which imo are bad because, while you gain excellent coverage, you don't hit anything super effectively, which means that oftentimes you can't eliminate threats at +2 faster than they can kill or heavily damage you. Best sets imo are the dragon pulse sets, which don't require you to tera and also work against a lot of the new dragon types that we got, but running tera blast fire/ground lets you circumvent usual defensive counterplay while also giving you a decent new defensive typing, but locks you into teraing which is obviously terrible. Oh and subglare is stupid as always, especially with fewer status absorbers.

Overall, I'd give this meta a 7/10 for competitiveness and a 4/10 for fun. Definitely feels like there's room to exercise and express player skill in making the most optimal team, but as I am not a good player, the matchup-fishy aspect kinda bothers me and lack of hazard removal is REALLY a thorn in my side.
Does hatterene count as hazard control? It’s really good now as it checks a lot of threats in the format while also having magic bounce as a really good ability and it even gets back the rest of a previously good ho team with volcarona and moon being unbanned.
Great survey slate, props council for having their eyes on the right things and taking a broad look, no Gliscor is

enjoyment and competitve are a 7! I was ranking like 3 and 2 during DLC1 so this is a huge improvement. A lot of the freed mons are very welcome additions who add a lot to the tier and balance out a lot of would be problematic mons, I'd say I see a lot of equilibrium right now and team style options, however I definitely see how the saturation of threats is forcing certain balance team styles however primarily surrounding Meowscarada, Skarmory, and bulky ground types. I worry about too much action throwing off this relative equilibrium but I'm interested both to see how teams develop and how SPL develops the meta and if improvement is necessary or warranted from there.

:Deoxys-speed: - 1. Still not seeing it. Offensive is good and fast, but on par with all booster mons in the tier. Sure, having the speed persist after switching is nice, but how much switching does it really get to do with that bulk? I'm Still open to having my mind changed on this Mon but have not been presented with sufficient reason to change it.

:Kyurem: - 3, one of the more fucked up things on this survey, the speed tier and ice type help a bit while dealing with it but specs is awfully scary to switch into, the power of this set specifically is not the easiest to prepare for. I'd like To see a suspect at some point.

:Volcarona:- 1. Shared my thoughts on this last night, this Mon is a net positive for this tier offensively and defensively and should remain in the tier for sure, we are way worse off without it and there is 1 and a half real set and you need Tera to sweep and have maybe 2 real Tera options

:roaring moon: - 4. This Mon is still cheap af and really strong and annoying with little positioning, not as much as DLC1 but still. Defensive counterplay is relatively limited since it can punch through Bozo. I don't really think it's enough to warrant a quickban though, which places us in a weird position since it was just suspected. Would we suspect it again so soon? I think it would be a lot closer this time. I also don't really want Ogerpon, grassy spam, or rain taking over without it and we saw the first two gain a lot when roaring moon left the first time. But maybe we still have enough dragons without it? Again I hope this wouldn't be quickbanned. I'd be happy to see a suspect.

:gouging fire: - 3. Another Mon worth a suspect, good inclusion on the survey. Offensive and defensive presence is pretty hard to prepare for, that type is gnarly and the bulk and access to morning sun paired with the offensive profile and dragon dance to mitigate the speed without effort is really a strain in the builder. But can we allow grass types to take over again? Are volc and the Latis, and maybe raging bolt and or Kyurem

:serperior: - 2. Not the strongest or the hardest to deal with but glare is a very good move that complements the snowballing power very well, and I think dragon pulse is the best coverage move. Really not the hardest to pivot around or offensively check though, however glare being able to cheese past that is worth keeping an eye on because para spam is a dangerous trend that SV can easily evolve into as we've seen in the past

:raging bolt: - 2. another Mon with a type that's kind of hard to deal with, but fairies match a little better into it than packing heat, until it pulls out that kind of cheap priority move. Not a huge concern but not worth dismissing either

:iron Boulder: - 1. I think this Mon fits into the game well, useful offensive type, really damn fast, but downright terrible defensive presence, not enough immediate power to be a problem, and far from the only thing that priority helps a lot in dealing with. A good OU Mon.

:Enamorus: - 2. The mixed sets are actually good now, the way substitute synergizes with that is kind of annoying and can make this a bit tricky to deal with especially since substitute blanks a lot of defensive checks and makes it so easy to snowball. Not the hugest concern since it's defensively weak and weak to common attacking types but keep an eye on it

:Gholdengo: - 5! Let's suspect this, it's a really interesting Mon. Might even need 3 weeks to suspect it because there are a lot of pros and cons to banning this. Right off the bat it absorbs trick TWave and other cheap moves, but also uses them, and it's true that one balance is strong right now despite this things presence, but it is one of many things keeping balance a bit formulaic, and allowing Corv to defog freely could add a lot more variety into the builder. Stall also doesn't have as hard a time vs this with clod nearly mandatory but it's still not the safest matchup since you usually are just PP stalling it or forcing it out. Banning this could make balance even stronger and takes away a blanket check to cheese strategies or it could make all teams more diverse and open up a lot of structures as well as take an importance off hazards. But would banning it make it too difficult to make long term progress with balance teams if hazards can be freely removed at any time? We're seeing more defog Corv and a little less Ghold these days anyway. A suspect, again, maybe even 3 weeks, will give us time to figure this out. But it's time to, I'd rather see the changes this would bring than anything else.

:kingambit: - 1. We call this, Skarmory Food. Volc helps so much too but really we have enough counterplay to this now that is relatively free to run on any team that preparing for it is like fine.

WRITE IN: :Heat rock: - it's a little unconventional but a common thread here is Protosynthesis and being able to all benefit from it together on the same time, specifically looking at Roaring Moon, Raging Bolt, and Packing Heat. Sun is becoming quite tricky to prep for while also achieving what team you want to make and preparing for the rest of the meta and removing this item, forcing Torkoal to come in and get chipped more often and giving these mons 3 less turns for their shenanigans would help a lot, i feel.

i didn't write them in on the actual survey but I think :damp rock: is only fair to look into if we look into :Heat rock: since skewda Archaludon and friends becomes a much easier matchup to bank on with sun defanged. :Meowscarada: is also worth keeping an eye on for its power and current dominance but may be more comparable to Dragapult and Zamazenta as a useful tool for balance rather than oppressive threat.

As for Kokoloko, I got my piece out in the NJNP thread but would like to add that I agree with other peoples' arguments that the question of how to determine what to drop when and why is way too much of a crapshoot to be productive and the fact that with dropping threats one at a time, the order is way too much of a factor on the outcome. Let's say we ban everything on this survey, if Volc is tested first it'll be the most broken thing in the universe, if it's tested last it'll be chill but other stuff would be broken without it (like in DLC1.) Finch was spitting when he said we can only evaluate threats in the metagame they're in. Let's stick with a playtesting based approach, not a rhetorical and theorymon on the forums and discord approach.
Enamorus with scarf Tera Stellar and Tera blast with contrary is something to keep in mind when teamhuilding ho as a cleaner.

hi everyone. Unfotunately you cant see it in screenshot but i found this interaction interesting and i wanted to see if it was known or not? Showdown Halves the damage of a move when you are burnt. in turn 9 of this battle, I tera ground with excadrill and get burnt by flare blitz. Usually earthquake would be 50bp but its raised to 60 with tera. does cartridge work this way or is this a quirk of showdowns damage multiplier with burns. thanksView attachment 584955
Tera STAB stacks with normal STAB so I guess that’s what happened here.

TPP edit: You can quote multiple posts in a single post, so please make 1 bigger post instead of 5+ smaller ones. Thanks
 
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DLC2 SV has been the most fun I've had since XY. This is definitely the best iteration of the meta since release and I've been having a good time playing balance, semi-stall, and bulky offense. I wanted to talk about 2 underrated mons I've seen little to any discussion about

1703825073958.png
Sylveon @ Leftovers / Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Pixilate
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Wish
- Protect
- Calm Mind / Yawn
- Tera Blast

Sylveon has been an extremely underrated mon in SV. Sylveon differentiates herself from other wish passers through having a solid typing, exceptional special bulk (95 / 130), and without being passive (110 SPA). This set is a good special wall being able to handle specs Kyurem, Dragapult, Deo-S, Iron Val, Raging Bolt, Zapdos, Torn-T, Greninja (non gunkshot), Keldeo, and Enam, while also being able to provide a check to Wake and Kingda, and some Darkrai, Hatt and Hoopa sets.
Tera ground improves its machup against most fire and steels being able to flip the matchup on Heatran, Ghold, Moth, Arch, and Dirge. Tera ground also helps in other key matchups like Bolt, Garg, Iron Crown, and Slowking. Calm Mind is more useful if you need a late game wincon while yawn is better for forcing switches.
Sylveon works really well on balance and semi stall structures. Sylveons EV spread should always include max HP for wish passing, but can trade some of its SpD for SpA to add some more bite to its Tera blasts. Important to note, Sylveon should avoid Calm Mind wars against pokemon packing psyshock or SP and also really hates toxic.
If you like running balance, BO, or Semi stall, I'd recommend giving her a shot. I peaked in the 1800s Prehome with her and the 1600s while dabbling in dlc2

1703828353295.png

Moltres-Galar @ Leftovers / Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Berserk
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 252 SpA / 164 SpD / 92 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Pain Split
- Hurricane
- Fiery Wrath
- Taunt

While a less serious pick than Sylv, I've found this to be a really funny anti meta set. Pain Split + Taunt + Berserk just absolutely obliterates ting-king-skarm cores. 252 Modest is used for breaking while 92 speed let's you outspeed most defensive mons. The speed and spd EVs can be played around a bit but I've found this spread to outrun most Heatran sets and survive a 2hko from ghold which are both really useful. Tres has surprisingly good special bulk (90 / 125) and can be used as a check against the tiers many special attackers. Unfortunately, pain split isn't really reliable recovery and it's really torn between the passive recovery of Leftovers and the ability to switch in and out with HBD. Because of these drawbacks and its speed tier, it can really suffer in certain matchups. Still, its a super fun set to slot on teams if you really need to shut down passive hstacking
 
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The meta is a mess. Still, this is a notable improvement from DLC1. It's "fun" in the sense there are a lot of cool broken mons to use. It's not competitive though. Everything feels cheap and OP. The 50/50s are even worse.

Meta rating - 6: Explained above

Competitiveness - 2: Explained above

Deoxys-S - 5: This thing was dumb in Gen 4, it's dumb now. Taunt lead 50/50s. Rediculous speed and power vs. offensive teams. Crazy movepool. And it gets Nasty Plot?It has no business in OU.

Kyurem - 5: Ugh. Fuck this thing. There aren't enough good steel types in the tier and it just beats those anyway.

Volcarona - 4: It's not crazy broken like some of the other stuff on the list but as soon as we ban those it will be obviously broken again. I love Volcarona but the main issue with this is and always has been Tera. Quiver Dance + Recovery + Good stats + pick your typing.

Roaring Moon - 4: I love using this mon but it's broken. Too much for OU. Too fast, strong and deceptively bulky. Priority doesn't even take it out.

Gouging Fire - 4: This guy is a bit much for OU. Similar to Roaring Moon trading less initial power and speed for even more bulk.

Serperior - 4: Dumb. Glare + Contrary Leafstorm + Tera Stellar? No thank you.

Raging Bolt - 5: What actually beats this thing? Clodsire? Ffs. It's special Gambit with less checks.

Iron Boulder - 4: Speed tier is too high with Booster Energy. You basically need Grassy Glide to revenge kill, and it can Tera out.

Enamorous - 2: Strong but fine. Solid OU mon. It's rocks weak, relatively frail, and easy to outspeed.

Gholdengo - 1: Free the string cheese man!

Kingambit - 5: It's still Kingcheap's Meta.

YES, I support kokoloko method. There's too much busted shit in the Meta and we can't have a serious tier until this gets cleaned out. Most of these mons are laughably busted.

Is there anything else not already mentioned you would like to see the council look into?
Oh yes... Lot missing from this list. Lets see:

Gliscor - 5: Still dumb and cancer. Makes battles miserable.

Stored Power - 4: - uncompetitive cheese.

Latias - 4: Dumb cheap Tera Stored Power sets. Fine with the other stuff. Will be a solid OU mon if Tera gets taken care of.

Ogerpon-Wellspring - 4: She's still broken. But has fallen to like #15 on the list or whatever.

Manaphy - 4: Bruh, Manaphy is broken too. Same with Oger, has fallen to #16 or whatever

Archaludon - 3: This mon is probably going to end up broken. I fucked around with it for a bit after struggling. It instantly rattles off wins. If your opponent doesn't have Focus Blast or some shit it just wins games.

Garganacl - 4: This mon is cancerous as hell. It's not on anyone's radar right now because it's #18 on the list or whatever.

Please council, do your thing and clean this stuff up. This meta is just broken vs. broken on steroids. It's matchup fishy as hell and battles can come down to single turns / interactions too often.

And let's move on Tera ASAP.
 
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The meta is a mess. Still, this is a notable improvement from DLC1. It's "fun" in the sense there are a lot of cool broken mons to use. It's not competitive though. Everything feels cheap and OP. The 50/50s are even worse.

Meta rating - 6: Explained above

Competitiveness - 2: Explained above

Deoxys-S - 5: This thing was dumb in Gen 4, it's dumb now. Taunt lead 50/50s. Rediculous speed and power vs. offensive teams. Crazy movepool. And it gets Nasty Plot?It has no business in OU.

Kyurem - 5: Ugh. Fuck this thing. There aren't enough good steel types in the tier and it just beats those anyway.

Volcarona - 4: It's not crazy broken like some of the other stuff on the list but as soon as we ban those it will be obviously broken again. I love Volcarona but the main issue with this is and always has been Tera. Quiver Dance + Recovery + Good stats + pick your typing.

Roaring Moon - 4: I love using this mon but it's broken. Too much for OU. Too fast, strong and deceptively bulky. Priority doesn't even take it out.

Gouging Fire - 4: This guy is a bit much for OU. Similar to Roaring Moon trading less initial power and speed for even more bulk.

Serperior - 4: Dumb. Glare + Contrary Leafstorm + Tera Stellar? No thank you.

Raging Bolt - 5: What actually beats this thing? Clodsire? Ffs. It's special Gambit with less checks.

Iron Boulder - 4: Speed tier is too high with Booster Energy. You basically need Grassy Glide to revenge kill, and it can Tera out.

Enamorous - 2: Strong but fine. Solid OU mon. It's rocks weak, relatively frail, and easy to outspeed.

Gholdengo - 1: Free the string cheese man!

Kingambit - 5: It's still Kingcheap's Meta.

YES, I support kokoloko method. There's too much busted shit in the Meta and we can't have a serious tier until this gets cleaned out. Most of these mons are laughably busted.

Is there anything else not already mentioned you would like to see the council look into?
Oh yes... Lot missing from this list. Lets see:

Gliscor - 5: Still dumb and cancer. Makes battles miserable.

Stored Power - 4: - uncompetitive cheese.

Latias - 4: Dumb cheap Tera Stored Power sets. Fine with the other stuff. Will be a solid OU mon if Tera gets taken care of.

Ogerpon-Wellspring - 4: She's still broken. But has fallen to like #15 on the list or whatever.

Manaphy - 4: Bruh, Manaphy is broken too. Same with Oger, has fallen to #16 or whatever

Archaludon - 3: This mon is probably going to end up broken. I fucked around with it for a bit after struggling. It instantly rattles off wins. If your opponent doesn't have Focus Blast or some shit it just wins games.

Garganacl - 4: This mon is cancerous as hell. I don't care. It's not on anyone's radar right now because it's #18 on the list or whatever.

Please council, do your thing and clean this stuff up. This meta is just broken vs. broken on steroids. It's matchup fishy as hell and battles can come down to single turns / interactions too often.

And let's move on Tera ASAP.
I agree with most, except with Serperior and Gholdengo, imo Gholdengo should be at least suspect tested, and Serperior shouldn't use Tera Stellar, there are better Tera types
 
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The meta is a mess. Still, this is a notable improvement from DLC1. It's "fun" in the sense there are a lot of cool broken mons to use. It's not competitive though. Everything feels cheap and OP. The 50/50s are even worse.

Meta rating - 6: Explained above

Competitiveness - 2: Explained above

Deoxys-S - 5: This thing was dumb in Gen 4, it's dumb now. Taunt lead 50/50s. Rediculous speed and power vs. offensive teams. Crazy movepool. And it gets Nasty Plot?It has no business in OU.

Kyurem - 5: Ugh. Fuck this thing. There aren't enough good steel types in the tier and it just beats those anyway.

Volcarona - 4: It's not crazy broken like some of the other stuff on the list but as soon as we ban those it will be obviously broken again. I love Volcarona but the main issue with this is and always has been Tera. Quiver Dance + Recovery + Good stats + pick your typing.

Roaring Moon - 4: I love using this mon but it's broken. Too much for OU. Too fast, strong and deceptively bulky. Priority doesn't even take it out.

Gouging Fire - 4: This guy is a bit much for OU. Similar to Roaring Moon trading less initial power and speed for even more bulk.

Serperior - 4: Dumb. Glare + Contrary Leafstorm + Tera Stellar? No thank you.

Raging Bolt - 5: What actually beats this thing? Clodsire? Ffs. It's special Gambit with less checks.

Iron Boulder - 4: Speed tier is too high with Booster Energy. You basically need Grassy Glide to revenge kill, and it can Tera out.

Enamorous - 2: Strong but fine. Solid OU mon. It's rocks weak, relatively frail, and easy to outspeed.

Gholdengo - 1: Free the string cheese man!

Kingambit - 5: It's still Kingcheap's Meta.

YES, I support kokoloko method. There's too much busted shit in the Meta and we can't have a serious tier until this gets cleaned out. Most of these mons are laughably busted.

Is there anything else not already mentioned you would like to see the council look into?
Oh yes... Lot missing from this list. Lets see:

Gliscor - 5: Still dumb and cancer. Makes battles miserable.

Stored Power - 4: - uncompetitive cheese.

Latias - 4: Dumb cheap Tera Stored Power sets. Fine with the other stuff. Will be a solid OU mon if Tera gets taken care of.

Ogerpon-Wellspring - 4: She's still broken. But has fallen to like #15 on the list or whatever.

Manaphy - 4: Bruh, Manaphy is broken too. Same with Oger, has fallen to #16 or whatever

Archaludon - 3: This mon is probably going to end up broken. I fucked around with it for a bit after struggling. It instantly rattles off wins. If your opponent doesn't have Focus Blast or some shit it just wins games.

Garganacl - 4: This mon is cancerous as hell. It's not on anyone's radar right now because it's #18 on the list or whatever.

Please council, do your thing and clean this stuff up. This meta is just broken vs. broken on steroids. It's matchup fishy as hell and battles can come down to single turns / interactions too often.

And let's move on Tera ASAP.
Manaphy? In a Meowscarada meta? I guess it can Tera, but then there's other stuff to do to it. Kind of crazy to give Great Neck a 5 when it only has CM to Boost and can be taken out by a Great Tusk's Headlong Rush. Ogerpon-Wellspring is checked/countered by Rillaboom and Serperior. Kingambit got a few new checks in DLC.
 
Manaphy? In a Meowscarada meta? I guess it can Tera, but then there's other stuff to do to it. Kind of crazy to give Great Neck a 5 when it only has CM to Boost and can be taken out by a Great Tusk's Headlong Rush. Ogerpon-Wellspring is checked/countered by Rillaboom and Serperior. Kingambit got a few new checks in DLC.
Manaphy & Raging Bolt can just Tera out of those matchups. Great Tusk is even worse vs. Great Neck than Kingambit.

I'm thinking ahead with the Gliscor, Manaphy, Ogerpon-W, crop.. they are not the prime offenders at the moment but the essence of what they are in DLC1 hasn't changed.
 
Meta rating: 5/10. Though this is far and away better than the DLC1 meta ever was, DLC2 feels like a slightly more balanced 'broken checks broken' meta. I feel there's a bit to clean up here, including one big, fat, ugly generational gimmick...

Competitiveness: 6/10. On one hand, it feels like a single mistake can cost you an entire game thanks to everything we have running around. On the other, teambuilding doesn't feel as restrictive as I think it should seem.

:deoxys_speed: 3/5. An incredibly versatile mon backed up by its insane Speed tier. A Nasty Plot sweeper, a suicide lead, an all-out attacker. Speedeoxys is very good. It'll likely claim a mon or two with the offensive variants, potentially backed up by Tera. How reliable it is at these I think has yet to be seen, but don't discredit it just yet.

:kyurem: 5/5. By far and large the only thing that I know needs to go. The second Kyurem gets in is the second something is dying. It's incredibly versatile and while its Type combo isn't the greatest, it's easy to Tera out of while remaining incredibly threatening offensively (as Baxcalibur has shown). You'll never know if it's Dragon Dance, Specs or some other batshit insane set I probably don't know about.

:volcarona: 2/5. The matchup moth has received plenty of checks with the generational drop, whether they be Pokemon who resist its combo and force it to Tera early or Pokemon who outspeed it even after +1 and just kill it. Volcarona generally needs to get 2 Quiver Dances off to claim games and that isn't as easy as it was before.

:roaring_moon: 3/5. The primal paradoxical form of Salamence has been on a roller coaster of a Generation. It's susceptible hazards and lacks proper defensive utility thanks to its poor Defense stat, but giving this thing so much as a single turn can be downright game breaking. I don't mind Knock Off as much on it; a lot of other Pokemon have it and aren't broken by it, but Roaring Moon also has a surprisingly flexible last slot between Taunt to shut down defensive answers or Roost to take advantage of any Teras or what have you.

:iron_boulder: 3/5. A prime Tera abuser that is outright horrifying if you don't have priority. Great bulk for a setup sweeper, being the tier's fastest Booster abuser (outspeeding Booster Valiant and even +1 Roaring Moon) and a signature move that shows maybe it's best that Rock Type attackers don't have 100% accurate moves. However, it does live or die by any defensive Teras the opponent may make as it isn't as bulky as other sweepers like Kingambit or Gouging Fire. I think it's worth keeping an eye on.

:enamorus: 1/5. Too slow without Scarf, fragile and weak to Rocks. It's a better Stellar abuser than Serperior thanks to its much better Type combo, but that's really all I can give the fourth member of the

:serperior: 3/5. I've seen one too many a Stellar Serperior hit a mon with Leaf Storm, use a +2 Stellar Tera Blast and then die anyways because Stellar does nothing defensively. That being said, Glare is one of the downright dumbest moves in the game and in spite of its meager 75 Special Attack stat, Leaf Storm's STAB and high BP is more than enough to make up for the initial attack and it only gets far worse from there, not to mention its great Speed tier and solid bulk.

:raging_bolt: 2/5. Raging Bolt seems like a second Kingambit on paper alone thanks to Thunderclap, but it's held back by a mile by the amount of Pokemon running Tera Ground. Not just to beef up the power of their own Earthquakes and shed their terrible Defensive Type, but also providing an immunity to Thunderclap. It eats away at Tera and unlike the likes of Roaring Moon, Iron Boulder or Kingambit, it's not as powerful as those to justify the nigh mandatory Tera, lest you get blown up by an Earthquake.

:gouging_fire: 4/5. Not as fast or as powerful as Roaring Moon, but much, much bulkier. I have found Defensive sets to be underwhelming thanks to their common weaknesses, but the Dragon Dance sets really shine with access to Morning Sun and even Burning Bulwark to turn the tables on physically offensive Pokemon that would otherwise counter it. It's easy to accumulate numerous Dragon Dances thanks to its incredible bulk and is downright deadly with Terastalization.

:gholdengo: 1/5. The worst everybody's least favorite cheesestring mascot has been. Gholdengo has many a check and counter introduced and dropped in DLC2 and it might still possess an incredible amount of utility, but its never been less offensively threatening. I feel it's more the setters and lack of removal we have than Gholdengo's fault, but the setters themselves aren't even close to banworthy.

:kingambit: 4/5. Games against teams with Kingambit feel less like trying to strategically break down the enemy team and moreso trying to keep your team in as good a condition as possible so you don't get mowed down by Sucker Punch. It can take three, maybe four Pokemon to take down Kingambit because of its ludicrous bulk and the fact that its 50/50 mindgames are heavily placed in its favor. The day Supreme Overlord maxes at 25% additional damage is the day I no longer have issue with this reverse card of a Pokemon.

Anything else not mentioned? Yeah, just two.

:landorus_therian: please don't let him drop to uu please pleas e pleas eplae lpse

Tera. We live in a current meta where nothing is too obscenely broken like in DLC1 (save for Kyurem), so I think this is the perfect time to look into Tera again. Simply put; Tera makes what should be impossible (and for good reason) possible. It flips Type matchups on their heads, turning would-be-counters to other Pokemon into setup fodder. Many Pokemon in this meta have a robust set of Tera Types they can choose from, making it even harder to guess what Type they are. Not helped by the fact that making even a single mistake in these situations can be game ending. The Water Type should not be able to turn into a Fire Type and beat the Grass Type that was supposed to check it.
 
Enamorus isn’t at one in my tier list, maybe a three. I know it only has a niche use as a stellar abuser, but it’s such a good abuser of it and having an enamorus on your team has a similar effect to kingambit on your opponent’s strategy because of how strong of a cleaner enamorus is.
 
Enamorus isn’t at one in my tier list, maybe a three. I know it only has a niche use as a stellar abuser, but it’s such a good abuser of it and having an enamorus on your team has a similar effect to kingambit on your opponent’s strategy because of how strong of a cleaner enamorus is.
I think Stellar Enamorous is actually a bit of a trap. It's incredibly frail and dies to very strong priority + stealth rock chip. Also once your opponent obviously stellar teras enamorous, you're pretty much free to bring in your faster boost/scarf, priority or counter stellar mon. Admittedly, +2/+2 is very scary but not like iron boulder SD scary.
 

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