Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [Volcarona Banned]

[Finchinator]

Please can you identify "they"?

As I said, site ownership. There is always a push to keep core mechanics around when possible due to the amount of traffic and excitement it generates. I have alluded to this previously and do not have much to hide. It took a lot to get things like the initial Dynamax and Tera suspects because of this and while I do think another Tera suspect this generation is possible if the community support existed (it is not currently), it gets even harder to justify after the generation.

It's hilarious how fast and ferocious y'all are at silencing regular users that push different views from the ones the council allows, yet how slow you are at opposing to those egoboosted dinosaurs that ruin the game WE play

Ngl I am sick and tired of you acting like there is some conspiracy against you. You have been a malicious presence in the community for years and show no sign of changing that. I have never infracted you strictly because I know you do not like me and I abstain (despite many opportunities, including some other staff have had to act on). I have only ever deleted two posts of yours -- and both times I directed you to the proper place to post them. Perhaps you should take a look in the mirror at what got you banned from the site multiple times, the people you have hurt, and the way you conduct yourself when it comes to deflecting any blame ever towards people doing thankless shit, especially when it goes to claiming they are part of some greater conspiracy.

I will be the first to admit I have made mistakes, the tiering system is always improving, and we will continue to learn. But there is no silence campaign, different views are welcome, and this is easily the most democraic tiering has ever been with more surveys and suspects.

 

[tigers jaw]

i don't think it's fair for finch to have to speak on behalf of site ownership on this issue. it's nobody else's job to defend the contradiction between running a site in which the playerbase sets the rules supposedly for the purposes of competition, yet having a desire to protect uncompetitive elements due to individual financial interests.

 

[bigasschungusboi]

Man who even runs ogc lmfao I can't imagine that them mfers actually liked playing dynamax even if that shit brought thousands of new players, shit was un-fucking-playable

 

[senorlopez]

I have always said that whatever the community wants should happen. I have never stood in the way of that. I would bet my entire spot on this website that site ownership wouldn’t allow for that to happen post-generation. They barely let us suspect Tera to begin with during the generation. They weren’t even happy when Dynamax had to go.

This so makes so much sense when you take into consideration the unique wording of tera on the surveys and reluctance to seriously consider tera banning discussions when a core and longstanding sleep mechanic change was so smoothly passed.

Look, the owners are entitled to do what they please on the website - but where is the transparency that there is an agenda from the higher ups? Why is this the first time i've heard about this as a somewhat active lurker? What is the point of having these discussions on tera if the people with actual power don't want change to happen?

If, as a council member, you feel restricted or guided without a competitive justification, then i'm sorry to to say, but that's corruption. Your role is to represent the community and make decisions that enhance fairness , enjoyment and competition. You shouldn't have to navigate around those with ulterior motives above you - or if you do at least make it more transparent so many of us aren't wasting our time on discussing tera.

 

[Finchinator]

The survey wording and inclusion was done entirely on our own. I think at a point you have to realize that a lot of the playerbase genuinely does not want action on Tera, too. Posts like the above are assuming things incorrectly.

 

[bigasschungusboi]

Finch and the OU tiering council are fucking under control by the Shadow Council and are forcing us all to play ou with tera!!!

DOWN WITH THE SHADOW COUNCIL!!!!

 

[Niko]

Cut

There is no conspiracy theory man, and if there was one it would surely not include me. I don't feel targeted in any way, I just consider things rationally. You are putting a lot of efforts into strictly moderating people talking about a Tera ban and have been doing so for a while, and now you admit there's a direction about keeping the signature mechanic in the tier. This could have been made clear much earlier saving many of us times of useless discussion. It's natural that I get angry at it now. Nobody likes to get fooled.

And no, you did not abstain from infracting me because you know I don't like you, but because the infractions would have been borderline (to be generous) even for smogon standards and you couldn't self justify them to yourself. Not delivering them is what any decent staffer should have done. The posts you deleted could have been moved to what you claimed to be the proper thread instead if you weren't such in a hurry to silence me asap, especially considering they both had already met some consensus.

As for the part of myself being a malicious presence - which is completely out of topic btw - this is a perception shared by a portion of the staff that gets annoyed at me opposing to decisions I don't agree with. Mostly the portion of the staff that didn't get to know me personally. I have my many flaws but what you stated is just exaggerated.

 

[senorlopez]

The survey wording and inclusion was done entirely on our own. I think at a point you have to realize that a lot of the playerbase genuinely does not want action on Tera, too. Posts like the above are assuming things incorrectly.

And if the community doesn't want tera change then that's completely fine. Decisions are supposed to be made in an open and unbiased manner, free from hidden agendas which you've admitted isn't the case - this creates distrust.

 

[Finchinator]

Let me make it all as clear as can be:

• Yes, there is some resistance towards banning generational mechanics that I encountered at the start of the generation.
• No, it did not stop us from conducting a suspect on Dynamax or Tera.
• No, there is no reason to believe that would stop us IF a Tera second suspect were to be needed.
• There is not current support internally or community wise for a Tera suspect.
• If this changes, I will happily include it in another survey or act on it in the best interest of our players.
• Post-CG SV OU is a different animal that I think is silly to speculate about, but it would be very unprecedented to see Tera go after the generation and I doubt it would happen personally.

You are putting a lot of efforts into strictly moderating people talking about a Tera ban and have been doing so for a while

This is not true and you could not find an example of this without me redirecting someone to a proper place to post. I very rarely delete posts or over-moderate. Discussion in this thread is more open and lax than any prior generation. I implore people in favor of Tera action to discuss it here, yourself included. Please post your thoughts and you never know what could happen from there!

And no, you did not abstain from infracting me because you know I don't like you, but because the infractions would have been borderline (to be generous) even for smogon standards and you couldn't self justify them to yourself.

The infractions you received were absolutely not borderline. I refused to hand any out or discuss many of them, but they were all clear-cut and some very disturbing.

 

[quacc]

Ngl Finch and Niko you guys should do a grudge match in Stallcord (https://discord.gg/4kS47vu7), we are looking for one more matchup anyways

 

[Finchinator]

Ngl Finch and Niko you guys should do a grudge match in Stallcord (https://discord.gg/4kS47vu7), we are looking for one more matchup anyways

Happy to play, never back down from a fight. Invitation to Will of Fire too

 

[1LDK]

hold on Finch vs Niko and WoF would be a handicap match we need to book a tagmatch god damm it, whos making the running

 

[bigasschungusboi]

TAG ME THE FUCK IN FINCH IM STALL"S STRONGEST SOLDIER!!! RAHHH!!!!!

 

[waffle04]

Niko v Finch on Fight Night???

To get back on topic, what tera types do you guys think gets freed up now that volcarona got banned? I personally think this was the volcarona ban's biggest impact on the tier and it seems like tera dragon is a big winner at first glance due to the fact that tera-ing your gliscor or dozo into dragon doesn't put you at risk from tera dragon volcarona in a pinch. Tera steel also comes out a big winner thanks to the fact that the other fire types are nowhere near as common as volcarona and most tera steel pokemon aren't meant to take on gouging fire anyways.

 

[ninth]

site ownership. There is always a push to keep core mechanics around when possible due to the amount of traffic and excitement it generates.

I would be surprised if there wasn't a higher burden to attempt action on a generational mechanic to begin with. That kind of suspect has always been harder to get done because it's a much larger change to the status quo. It feels implicit to me that action on Tera/dynamax/whatever Junichi comes up with next would always require much more support than, say, action on Volcarona or something.

 

[Finchinator]

I would be surprised if there wasn't a higher burden to attempt action on a generational mechanic to begin with. That kind of suspect has always been harder to get done because it's a much larger change to the status quo. It feels implicit to me that action on Tera/dynamax/whatever Junichi comes up with next would always require much more support than, say, action on Volcarona or something. It makes sense!

Yes, there should be a higher burden of proof to ban something like a generational mechanic than something like a single Pokemon. It should be (and is) still very much possible though.

 

[Ghoulish Champ]

Happy to play, never back down from a fight. Invitation to Will of Fire too

Truly a goated finch moment

 

[Niko]

The infractions you received were absolutely not borderline. I refused to hand any out or discuss many of them, but they were all clear-cut and some very disturbing.

I wasn't talking about the infractions I received but the ones that you said you could give me and refused to. The last one I received was almost 2 years ago, wanna really discuss about it?

Also when I said you over moderated some threads I meant you as a group, not just Finchinator. I have no personal interest in targeting ppl for the mistakes they make but since you hold the power you are the ones to interact with if we want tiering action. If you are so sensitive about a mistake you do being underlined and opposed maybe the role doesn't fit you.

 

[Finchinator]

Also when I said you over moderated some threads I meant you as a group, not just Finchinator. I have no personal interest in targeting ppl for the mistakes they make but since you hold the power you are the ones to interact with if we want tiering action. If you are so sensitive about a mistake you do being underlined and opposed maybe the role doesn't fit you.

discuss away to everyone who has strong feelings, have fun

 

[bigasschungusboi]

Tera is a stinky poopy mech

 

[ant4456]

I would be surprised if there wasn't a higher burden to attempt action on a generational mechanic to begin with. That kind of suspect has always been harder to get done because it's a much larger change to the status quo. It feels implicit to me that action on Tera/dynamax/whatever Junichi comes up with next would always require much more support than, say, action on Volcarona or something.

Prioritizing the status quo is the very worst part of our tiering philosophy.

Destroying an awful status quo and starting anew should be embraced far more. The status quo does not need protection from site ownership or the tiering council because there is always an intrinsic bias to the status quo from the fact that it exists, and the alternative doesn't. No suspect should be fought by it, and especially since a lot of these decisions are based on """precedent""" or, even worse, to look good to the public.

The fact that many avenues to explore a non-Tera OU this gen have been repeatedly denied, in my opinion for cynical reasons, is a part of why I honestly think there is a major problem.

 

[waffle04]

Prioritizing the status quo is the very worst part of our tiering philosophy.

Destroying an awful status quo and starting anew should be embraced far more. The status quo does not need protection from site ownership or the tiering council because there is always an intrinsic bias to the status quo from the fact that it exists, and the alternative doesn't. No suspect should be fought by it, and especially since a lot of these decisions are based on """precedent""" or, even worse, to look good to the public.

The fact that many avenues to explore a non-Tera OU this gen have been repeatedly denied, in my opinion for cynical reasons, is a part of why I honestly think there is a major problem.

It realistically boils down to the fact that a) you don't want to split the playerbase and b) only a minority (25% I think) wanted tera banned wholly so it did not make sense to pander to a vocal minority while causing a big enough fraction in the playerbase to cause games played to fall. If there are enough willing participants, it's not impossible to organize a tera free tournament similar to the no boots gen 8 tournament that's going on right now.

 

[tigers jaw]

once again people are raising the canard of "generational mechanic", as though it's anything but an unfounded, arbitrary privilege given to elements. such cases should be treated the same way we treat any other aspect of the game, as ultimately, anything introduced by every generation could be given this classification.

we don't apply this standard to hazards, or megas, or problematic fairy types, or any proto/quark mons, or new pokemon, or new unique confluences of previously existing elements eg. futureport - all of which are equally fit to be called "generational mechanics".

 

[ant4456]

It realistically boils down to the fact that a) you don't want to split the playerbase and b) only a minority (25% I think) wanted tera banned wholly so it did not make sense to pander to a vocal minority while causing a big enough fraction in the playerbase to cause games played to fall. If there are enough willing participants, it's not impossible to organize a tera free tournament similar to the no boots gen 8 tournament that's going on right now.

What I said is not specific to the Tera conversation, it is in its entirety.

Especially in regards to oldgens like BW. The idea that we must conserve is terrible.

Tera Free tournament isn't good for the same reason that the Gen 8 No Boots tournament isn't good (though it is far better imo, but ultimately most of the issues still apply)- because it isn't the actual metagame, it's not taken as seriously, and most people just reuse teams with minor variations. There was a Tera free tournament and it was ass because:

1. No Council to actively moderate the metagame throughout the weeks, ie. little change or discussion

2. Most people just reused teams

3. It wasn't that serious

Tournaments are best used to test things like a metagame with a Pokemon removed or not, which are most often used in lower tier oldgens. These also often lead to votes, which means that there is some seriousness to the experimentation.

The Gen 8 Boots tour is mostly valid imo still because it's just one element removed, but because a lot of people just reuse teams and don't take it that seriously it hasn't really shown much meta change. In fact I could show you two replays, one from regular Gen 8 OU and one from the tour, and you could probably fail to guess which is which at times.

 

[Cheryl.]

I think the true fate of this tier being discussed as one of the worst OU gens after it’s done being the current gen is unavoidable. We will have threads like the ones for BW arguing on end about how to “fix” the tier and it will never go anywhere because there’s no easy way, and the ~5 people left that actually pretend to enjoy the tier in tours like in BW will keep change from ever actually occurring. What we can do now is try to ban some of the big outliers before the gen ends but a Tera meta will never be truly balanced.