Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3

[TCTphantom]

Yes obviously previous Ubers pokemon are kinda meh right now, but the power creep of this gen is also counterintuitive to dropping any Ubers. How does Darkrai help the metagame? Does it counter Gholdengo? Would this mean that Gholdengo is the real problem and Darkrai is only a way to not ban Gholdengo? It's stuff like this that one needs to consider when any Ubers pokemon is down in OU. It may be OU later, but unfortunately, we can't drop any Ubers to OU until DLC 2.

The darkrai unban players still haven't seemed to grasp that the supposed positive qualities darkrai brings weavile brings to the table and more with actual ice stab and an equal speed tier this unban darkrai garbage is complete bull honestly every time the thread brings up unbanning an uber its complete bullshit. Stop talking about fucking darkrai and move on to the actual metagame for once

Honestly, this is the worst kind of anti unban argument, especially when a soft reset is on the table.

We do not ban things because they “don’t add anything” to the meta. We ban things because they are broken. If Darkrai is unbanned and ends up broken, that’s fine. If anything, it serves as a nice piece of data we can use in future tiering decisions. But wanting it not to drop just because it “doesn’t add anything” is misguided at best. Even with our small sample size of tour gameplay, there is evidence that Darkrai isn’t obviously broken beyond belief.

We know that the council is heavily weighing unbans in DLC2. Acting like there’s “no point’ in even letting Darkrai down is just being stubborn. Let’s say it does end up a problem. Darkrai takes time to show its true brokenness, and is banned sometime in June of 2024. Is that even a bad thing? We have data now that suggests Darkrai, even in spite of its nerfs and the way the game has changed, would be problematic. If it comes back in Gen X, that is useful to have on hand. It also comes across as disingenuous to just put Darkrai under more scrutiny than mons like Roaring Moon or Volcarona. Both of those seem to be consensus drops, even if people widely complained about them in the tier before they were banned. Darkrai imo is in the same ball park as them, and should be evaluated similarly on its ban worthy traits rather than some arbitrary definition of “adding to the tier”.

I’d also point out that there are benefits to Darkrai being unbanned. It serves as a special breaker and a form of speed control, which are appealing qualities. The only other strong special form of speed control we have rn is Dragapult. It’s also worth taking a look at because it’s clear there is public interest in it. This isn’t some fringe, one off poster saying that we should drop Giratina or something: it’s a repeated discussion that has legs. We know the OU council has at least floated the idea of dropping Darkrai in dlc2. Finch said that he was considering in in Office Hours and it was on a tiering survey. If there is this much public discussion of Darkrai in Ou and we have high level gameplay (even with the flaws of a tiny sample size and the short timeframe it was on the table) that suggests it isn’t a problem, I’d say that “has merit” for a drop.

Whether Darkrai should or should not drop should be based on its power level and whether it’s broken: not what it does or doesn’t add to the tier. Banning things on a subjective basis like that just isn’t how bans are handled. I’ll be happy if Darkrai comes down to Ou and is quickbanned in a month. I’ll be happy if it comes down to OU and stays. But if it stays or goes, it should be on its own qualities, not whether it “adds to the tier”.

 

[YubelVT]

Another cringe double post (at the time of writing started) but this one is big enough that it actually justifies it.

So? they got new moves/support and become impossible to stop, got suspected or quickbanned. Gambit didn't get nothing new, he still has the same checks and counterplays that u had one year to develop and learn

Also bax was the next to be suspected if dlc 1 did not drop early september so "completely fine" makes me laugh

Like I said, the scale shot debate is not one I'm stepping into

Congratulation you just discovered how the generational mechanic works in terms of teambuilding and gameplan

I can be just as sarcastic as you but I don't need to

Yes the famous viable avest ttar, directly from gen 6 (now without pursuit) top 60 usage on ladder, totally similar to being checked by a pokemon like tusk or dozo both able to move to a gambit's check to a wincon with curse or bulk up

My point wasn't that AV Tar was viable, my point was that it was an underrated answer to an objective problem in the tier. Kingambit can break through its checks and there isn't anything sub OU (to my knowledge, someone feel free to correct me on this) that can deal with it.

And never got really banned in the generation with most bans in the history lmao

Stayed in the tier on the same margin that Gliscor was banned on. What's your point here?

It's the ou forum no one cares

This is code for "I can't actually address this point so I'll pretend it's irrelevant"

We are talking about a considerable amount of good players not with bad opinions/being controversial on twitter but ALL of them voting what YOU think is the wrong option in a survey. Only the fact they care about the OU state is something remarkable, there are many tournament players with 10 posts who appear on smogon only for posting tour results. If you think the qualified playerbase is wrong also the council is wrong on cutting the votes in two (normal/qualified), maybe the problem for you isn't gambit but the smogon community

For me in the last survey the qualified playerbase is totally right on putting gambit at the same level of manaphy and oger water and first place sneasler (rip) and second dengo, so keep these awful takes for you.

Waterpon is genuinely ridiculous and idk what you're on about here comparing it to Manaphy, which is definitely good and worthy of a suspect in its own right but not qb worthy. Dengo stifling the hazard metagame makes it completely banworthy on its own regardless of it being a good pokemon outside of that. The qualified playerbase aren't inherently incorrect but that doesn't mean they're always correct in their opinions either.
I think it is a good idea to split the votes, but I've said before and I'll say it again, Kingambit is the exception to the efficacy of this process. Kingambit is one of a few pokemon that should have been survey banned from both voting pools instead of just qualified players.

Yes i am wrong, qualified voters are wrong and council is wrong are u happy now?

U got one suspect for gambit almost at end of the of the home metagame lifespan where it was at is peak and multiple surveys to see if gambit deserved a new suspect, failing every time

It's time to adapt since new pokemons are dropping with dlc and from ubers in 20 days

Anyone who is pro gambit is incorrect regardless of skill level. It's genuinely ridiculous how you in particular keep beating the "GOOD PLAYERS ARE ALWAYS CORRECT AT ALL TIMES" drum when there are numerous examples, in both pokemon and other games, where that simply isn't true. The meta is completely warped around Kingambit and has been for quite a while. Stop telling people to "adapt", because we have and it's fucking up team diversity. Great Tusk is a great pokemon that you want to use anyway, but it's incredibly boring that because of gambit, your choices during teambuilding are "Great Tusk AND [alternative that's less good but has unique traits that make up for it]" instead of "Great Tusk OR [alternative that's less good but has unique traits that make up for it]" like you could do with lando-t in previous gens (namely 7).

 

[awyp]

Why are we trying to push Darkrai to OU?

It's not push but in OUPL it was the first Pokemon used in the suspect slot. There's conversations about it being brought down it's been happening ever since its release, and it's very similar to Magearna idea. Yeah we want to see how it would be in OU and if it's too overwhelming the first week or two we can go ahead and ban / suspect it.

 

[RaikouLover]

Mr. "600 stat legendary" is not one to talk about Ubers drops honestly.

It was 700 BST. Not sure why people want to turn OU into Ubers UU.

 

[YubelVT]

It was 700 BST. Not sure why people want to turn OU into Ubers UU.

Stop pretending base stats mean anything. Regigigas is complete dogshit while Clodsire, niche as it is, is worth using. This is like saying the Tiger was a good tank because it was big and large while the Sherman was bad because it was small

 

[RaikouLover]

Stop pretending base stats mean anything. Regigigas is complete dogshit while Clodsire, niche as it is, is worth using. This is like saying the Tiger was a good tank because it was big and large while the Sherman was bad because it was small

Here’s to using the most extreme example to try to make a point. Everyone should assume the discussion is not about Slaking and Regigigas. Why even bring them into an honest discussion ?

 

[Welcome to mars]

depending on if bulky offense, balance or stall are still viable after the indigo disk and if the council still have plans to unban ogerpon heartflame or not, i think the big guy could have a solid role in the future of ou if its even available in the second dlc, it has regenerator, great psychical bulk and can wall the tiers most devastating wallbreaker, ogerpon wellspring, and matches up solidly against cornerstone too

 

[pika pal]

I'm becoming less and less inclined to the idea that trying to bring an Uber down MUST be predicated on the Pokemon "adding" something to the tier rather than just not being unhealthy (even if it does the same as a lot of stuff already considered normal for the tier). Part of what compounds this is that what "adds" to the tier will vary between players.

For an extreme (and entirely illustrative, this isn't a nomination before SOMEONE tries to "gotcha" my post with it) example: I very much dislike playing against Hazard Stacking while enjoying Bulky Offense, so I could argue Giratina is allowed in the tier because it adds a very big Defogger that beats down Hyper Offense and can set-up easily to break stall. In terms of what the above calls a desireable Meta, Giratina adds a lot to the tier, while sane people players who want team variety even if they don't play a lot of them would hate such a centralizing tier stomper.

I'm even of the position that Darkrai probably won't be a healthy OU presence if tried, but because it brings a lot of negatives to the tier moreso than not bring "enough" positives. This is the same reason I hold to a "Gholdengo bad" position as long as it's a Radar option: Yes it adds some good to the tier but the negatives far outweigh the positives (with or without Tera before THAT comes up too). If a Pokemon takes nothing more than it adds then a neutral effect would make it worth having in OU by my actual metric (as opposed to the Hyperbole used prior to make a point).

Here’s to using the most extreme example to try to make a point. Everyone should assume the discussion is not about Slaking and Regigigas. Why even bring them into an honest discussion ?

Is Hoopa-U struggling to stay above RUBL a better example then of BST not being indicative of a Pokemon's extremes in performance? We have other low-stat Pokemon like Ribombee, Alomomola, and Clefable proving OU staples because of what they bring overall while a bunch of our 600 BST Pseudos struggle to make UU because their kits aren't cohesive or suited to what they're up against. The point is ultimately the Pokemon needs to be evaluated holistically, something one-liners and smug comments, as have had a habit of popping up in this thread, do not contribute to.

 

[YubelVT]

Here’s to using the most extreme example to try to make a point. Everyone should assume the discussion is not about Slaking and Regigigas. Why even bring them into an honest discussion ?

Because they're the most obvious examples. I could refer to Kyurem Black (700 BST) who was OU for 3 gens before getting usable physical ice stab (and dragon dance) and then getting banned in gen 8. Kyurem (660 BST) base form was also banned in gen 8 after getting dragon dance. Mega Diancie (BST 700) was legal in both of the generations it's legal in. Hoopa-U (680 BST) was banned for exactly one of the generations it's legal in and has been mid ever since. My point is that BST isn't everything and you need to realize this.

 

[Soiramio3000]

How do you people feel now that sneasler got banned?
Do you enjoy the metagame more?

 

[Avira]

Really not looking forward to both Darkrai and Annihilape returning to OU when the second DLC drops.

Annihilape will still do much of the same things it did before, only there is now A-Tales Veil to support it. The meta may be more offensive compared to back when Annihilape was last legal, but it will still be really stupid behind screens.

Everybody already knows how I feel about Darkrai, and dropping both it and Annihilape will pretty much squeeze defensive structures out of the meta. I do not think it is healthy to have HO be the best playstyle by leaps and bounds as it would be with just 1 of those 2 legal in OU, not to mention both of them.

 

[Finchinator]

How do you people feel now that sneasler got banned?
Do you enjoy the metagame more?

Yes. Far fewer cheesy losses.

 

[YubelVT]

Really not looking forward to both Darkrai and Annihilape returning to OU when the second DLC drops.

Annihilape will still do much of the same things it did before, only there is now A-Tales Veil to support it. The meta may be more offensive compared to back when Annihilape was last legal, but it will still be really stupid behind screens.

Everybody already knows how I feel about Darkrai, and dropping both it and Annihilape will pretty much squeeze defensive structures out of the meta. I do not think it is healthy to have HO be the best playstyle by leaps and bounds as it would be with just 1 of those 2 legal in OU, not to mention both of them.

Has it been actually confirmed that Darkrai is coming down in DLC 2 or is this just speculation from OUPL? On annihilape, I expect that it'll still be broken but I wouldn't be surprised if it was fine in the tier. Power Creep has been kinda insane recently and it's very possible that he's just out offense'd. Again tho, I could definitely be wrong in my assessment

 

[morangotango]

i miss the time when every mon used to run earthquake so nobody gives a thing about anything weak to it

 

[Avira]

Has it been actually confirmed that Darkrai is coming down in DLC 2 or is this just speculation from OUPL? On annihilape, I expect that it'll still be broken but I wouldn't be surprised if it was fine in the tier. Power Creep has been kinda insane recently and it's very possible that he's just out offense'd. Again tho, I could definitely be wrong in my assessment

It hasn't been confirmed, but the Darkrai suspect tour in OUPL and the future Annihilape leg of that tour suggests that both of then will drop down to OU.

Whether or not Annihilape is just out-offensed is irrelevant in my opinion. A mon should have more counterplay than needing something to be faster to revenge kill it if it happens to be OU by usage. Offense shouldn't be the only viable playstyle.

 

[YubelVT]

It hasn't been confirmed, but the Darkrai suspect tour in OUPL and the future Annihilape leg of that tour suggests that both of then will drop down to OU.

Whether or not Annihilape is just out-offensed is irrelevant in my opinion. A mon should have more counterplay than needing something to be faster to revenge kill it if it happens to be OU by usage. Offense shouldn't be the only viable playstyle.

Look I'm an offense player so my default brain mode is offense. You're absolutely right but I do think that Annihilape might be fine because defensive power creep has also been pretty harsh. But again, I wouldn't be surprised in the least if he was banned too.

 

[ianlazerbeem]

How do you people feel now that sneasler got banned?
Do you enjoy the metagame more?

I like the bulky offense resurgence we've seen, Ting-Lu/Zapdos teams feel like the heart and soul of SV. In general feels like gameplay is a lot more normal than DLC1 has ever felt

Look I'm an offense player so my default brain mode is offense. You're absolutely right but I do think that Annihilape might be fine because defensive power creep has also been pretty harsh. But again, I wouldn't be surprised in the least if he was banned too.

Defensive power creep has been harsh? In what way? This gen is astronomically more offensive than gen 8 and balance and stall are barely usable playstyles, bulky offense probably being the most consistent right now & hyper offense still being very strong, and balance and stall also hinge on old Pokémon (Zamazenta, Dragapult, and Clefable)

 

[Soiramio3000]

Really not looking forward to both Darkrai and Annihilape returning to OU when the second DLC drops.

Annihilape will still do much of the same things it did before, only there is now A-Tales Veil to support it. The meta may be more offensive compared to back when Annihilape was last legal, but it will still be really stupid behind screens.

Everybody already knows how I feel about Darkrai, and dropping both it and Annihilape will pretty much squeeze defensive structures out of the meta. I do not think it is healthy to have HO be the best playstyle by leaps and bounds as it would be with just 1 of those 2 legal in OU, not to mention both of them.

Annihilape is coming back?
Cool.

I am tired of trying to make primeape work in OU.
It just doesn't work.

I wonder if hisuian zoroark will rise just to counter it.

 

[YubelVT]

Annihilape is coming back?
Cool.

I am tired of trying to make primeape work in OU.
It just doesn't work.

I wonder if hisuian zoroark will rise just to counter it.

H-Zoro enjoyers will be eating GOOD on week 1 of DLC 2, maybe. idk I'll be eating good I LOVE h-zoro so much, genuinely fun pokemon to use. Love killing tusks with +0 grass knot after a spike

 

[Carl_the_turtle]

Defensive power creep has been harsh? In what way? This gen is astronomically more offensive than gen 8 and balance and stall are barely usable playstyles, bulky offense probably being the most consistent right now & hyper offense still being very strong, and balance and stall also hinge on old Pokémon (Zamazenta, Dragapult, and Clefable)

Well, there's Dondozo, Ting-Lu, ...uhhhh, Garganacl, ...Clodsire and Skeledirge?
There are definitely some significantly more powerful defensive walls this gen than previously, but it does not scale to how insane offense's powercreep has gone in gen 9, IMHO.

 

[yomaalt]

Annihilape coming back? To the 3 BO/Balance players out there, write and sign your wills. You best get 17 spike layers and pray to all things that the team doesn't get rid of them/doesn't have boots ape, cause it's over the instant bro gets +1/+1 and 100 BP rage fist. Oh yeah HO users make sure to bomb it immediately or else you lose. To the 17 Hzoro enthusiasts, I'm using Night slash you aren't safe.

 

[RaikouLover]

Because they're the most obvious examples. I could refer to Kyurem Black (700 BST) who was OU for 3 gens before getting usable physical ice stab (and dragon dance) and then getting banned in gen 8. Kyurem (660 BST) base form was also banned in gen 8 after getting dragon dance. Mega Diancie (BST 700) was legal in both of the generations it's legal in. Hoopa-U (680 BST) was banned for exactly one of the generations it's legal in and has been mid ever since. My point is that BST isn't everything and you need to realize this.

Gosh. Never said BST was everything but what you are describing are exceptions to the norm. Outliers. Most ~700 BST Pokémon are Ubers and even of the few outlier examples you cited eventually ended up getting banned anyway. It still does not make sense why the community would push to move additional ultra high BST Pokémon down to OU when the track record is poor and there are already significant balancing issues in the tier.

 

[YubelVT]

Gosh. Never said BST was everything but what you are describing are exceptions to the norm. Outliers. Most ~700 BST Pokémon are Ubers and even of the few outlier examples you cited eventually ended up getting banned anyway. It still does not make sense why the community would push to move additional ultra high BST Pokémon down to OU when the track record is poor and there are already significant balancing issues in the tier.

For the record, I agree with your overall point, but your argument is so fucking bad. Focus on things that are r e l e v a n t (i.e. movepools, abilities, base stat DISTRIBUTION). Just going on about BST doesn't get us anywhere because BST doesn't matter without additional context.

Annihilape coming back? To the 3 BO/Balance players out there, write and sign your wills. You best get 17 spike layers and pray to all things that the team doesn't get rid of them/doesn't have boots ape, cause it's over the instant bro gets +1/+1 and 100 BP rage fist. Oh yeah HO users make sure to bomb it immediately or else you lose. To the 17 Hzoro enthusiasts, I'm using Night slash you aren't safe.

I'm coming for you. 252 SpA Zoroark-Hisui Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Annihilape: 278-330 (77 - 91.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

[Cheryl.]

I’ve been using and seeing more Zen Headbutt on SD Ogerpon-Wellspring lately and ngl I think this move may move the needle on the mon being okay into unhealthy for me lmao. A lot of teams rely on Amoonguss to answer it since Encore and Knock sets can’t really touch it too well, but ZHB just destroys those teams entirely unless they have a DNite or some other Dragon which is quite rare these days (remember when Kommo-o was viable… wait that loses to Zen LOL). SD Zen Wellspring feels really crazy and hard to answer rn though, and combine that with all of its other techs like Trailblaze, Encore sets and stuff and I’m starting to see why so many people feel this mon is unhealthy for the tier.

 

[yomaalt]

I'm coming for you. 252 SpA Zoroark-Hisui Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Annihilape: 278-330 (77 - 91.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 0 Atk Annihilape Night Slash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zoroark-Hisui: 258-304 (102.7 - 121.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Is yomaalt cooking absolute heat or straight fucking ass? Can YubelVT predict the annihilape tera properly, and claim the kill? Can Srn get tera banned before people start running tera normal modest specs hypervoice hzoro to try beating tera water sp.def ape? It's all going down in the next iteration of gen 9 OU, so stick around and stay tuned!

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